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One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

Okay, I was trying to build a Synthesist Summoner for a PFS game that's (finally) getting started near me, and I ran into a few questions. Trolling through the message boards turned up multiple threads on different topics, but I thought I'd put all my questions into one thread in the hopes of getting some clarification. I'm more interested in "official" interpretations of the rules than crowd-sourced ones, but since the Paizo crew don't seem to chime in on Summoner questions, I'll take whatever consensus I can get ;)

Here we go:

Weapons and Equipment

Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

1b) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

Hitpoints

Fused Eidolon wrote:
The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane...While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

2a) Is there any way of healing the Eidolon (i.e. replacing the temporary hitpoints)? What happens when the synthesist/eidolon is targeted with cure light wounds? What about rejuvenate eidolon? Channeled positive energy? Negative?

Ability Drain/Damage

3a) Assuming the summoner is attacked by a shadow while fused, and his strength is drained, what happens? What about when the Eidolon is dismissed?

3b) If the fused Summoner/Eidolon takes ability damage or drain, can this be healed while remaining fused? Does it persist after the Eidolon is resummoned?

Feel free to add to this list, hopefully in the same format for clarity (e.g "1c" for another Weapon and Equipment question, "2b" for another hitpoint one, "4a" for a new topic, etc).

Thanks in advanced for any clarity the boards can provide.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have the same questions as you uriel222, as do many others since Ultimate Magic was released.

There have been many interpretations, but unfortunately the wording of the archetype is not exactly clear in most cases.

Until we get some official clarification, it's up to individual GMs to give their own rulings. What this means for PFS... I don't know, since we have no PFS groups in my area. But I would assume that it's essentially unplayable. *shrug*

Strangely enough, the Broodmaster Summoner Archetype is written fairly clearly and is (IMHO) underwhelming and underpowered... yet it is specifically banned from PFS use.
Yet the Master Summoner has more summon spam potential and is ok, and the Synthesist has so many unanswered questions about it that in it's current incarnation it's not even playable without severe GM houseruling/fiat.


uriel222 wrote:
1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

Synthesists, while fused, may not wear armor. It's specifically stated that eidolons can't wear armor and that the synthesist and eidolon become one creature.

Quote:
1b) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

I'm not sure on this issue. My eidolon is a biped partially so that I can avoid negative GM rulings in this area, otherwise I would have went with the aquatic base form.

Quote:

Hitpoints

Fused Eidolon wrote:
The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane...While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.
2a) Is there any way of healing the Eidolon (i.e. replacing the temporary hitpoints)? What happens when the synthesist/eidolon is targeted with cure light wounds? What about rejuvenate eidolon? Channeled positive energy? Negative?

It seems to be a general consensus that the rejuvenate eidolon spell can heal the eidolon-provided temporary HP. Also, the fast healing evolution has generally been agreed to work on either ordinary or these special temporary HP in a given round. It's also generally agreed (as far as I've seen) that positive energy and CLW will heal your HP, and will not affect your eidolon temporary HP. Negative energy will just do damage to you as normal, temporary HP first unless you use fused link to redirect the damage to your normal HP.

Quote:

Ability Drain/Damage

3a) Assuming the summoner is attacked by a shadow while fused, and his strength is drained, what happens? What about when the Eidolon is dismissed?

As far as I can tell, it damages (or drains, though shadows do damage) the eidolon's physical stats. In my book, it takes the damage to physical stats and you do not. I'm pretty sure it doesn't heal ability damage naturally like you do, so it might be wise to take lesser restore eidolon as one of your spells (or keep a scroll of it).

Quote:
3b) If the fused Summoner/Eidolon takes ability damage or drain, can this be healed while remaining fused? Does it persist after the Eidolon is resummoned?

Yes, it does remain if you dismiss and resummon the eidolon, just like normal damage, diseases, etc. You can heal ability damage or drain while fused through the use of restoration/restore eidolon.


Interesting questions :)

1a) While fused with his eidolon, the Synthesist does not use any armor bonuses gained from armor that he's wearing, as per page 80 of the UM where it states that: "The Synthesist uses the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses ...". And since eidolons can't wear "real" armor, this should mean that it can only benefit from such effects as Mage Armor, or Shield spells.

1b)The Synthesist should be able to use any weapons that he is holding or carrying when he summons the eidolon, since it is nowhere stated that summoning the eidolon makes his gear (besides armor) useless. And he should be able to combine weapon attacks with natural attacks within the normal rules for doing so. If the Eidolon does indeed have hands, he should also be able to manipulate items such as wands or potions normally. If it doesn't have hands, it cannot manipulate items, and thus neither can the Summoner. I have a few doubts concerning tentacles and prehensile tails, but I think that they can manipulate items too.

2a) As someone else stated above, there seems to be a general concensus that it is possible to heal the temporary hitpoints granted by the Eidolon. If we assume that this is wrong, then your only option is to burn through your own hit points to keep the eidolon with you and then hope that your party healer likes you enough to keep you standing. In any case, we should assume that since the eidolon isn't an entity in it's own right - it's actually more like a massive buff spell, it should be fully "healed" every time you summon it again. Channeled Negative Energy will take the Hitpoints directly from the temporary ones first, as normal, though it raises some interesting possibiliies if the Eidolon has the "Undead Appearance" evolution.

3a/b) If the Summoner is drained of a physical ability score while wearing his eidolon, we should assume that the drain is taken from the eidolon's stats, not the Summoner's. This leaves a bit of a grey area, since it's unclear if the eidolon returns with it's full ability scores when summoned again, or is still drained. If you treat it as a buff, more than a creature, it should be back at full power when resummoned. Otherwise it must be rejuvinated through spells as normal. But currently that's more of a GM issue than something I could find hard rules on.

At least these are how my group interpret the Synthesist in general, I hope it helps a little :)


For what its worth here's a quote from James Jacobs about healing & Eidolons as it applies to the Synthesist

James Jacobs wrote:
You don't heal the eidolon at all if it only gives you temp HP. It might help to stop thinking of the synthesist as a "summoner with an eidolon" but a "summoner IS the eidolon" sort of way. AKA: To heal your "eidolon" you just heal yourself.

you can find it here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/askJamesJacobsAllYo urQuestionsHere&page=175&source=search#8720


Dolanar wrote:

For what its worth here's a quote from James Jacobs about healing & Eidolons as it applies to the Synthesist

James Jacobs wrote:
You don't heal the eidolon at all if it only gives you temp HP. It might help to stop thinking of the synthesist as a "summoner with an eidolon" but a "summoner IS the eidolon" sort of way. AKA: To heal your "eidolon" you just heal yourself.
you can find it here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/askJamesJacobsAllYo urQuestionsHere&page=175&source=search#8720

Fixed link

Also, keep in mind that I don't think these should be taken as "official" answers. More like JJ suggesting how he'd rule it in his own games.


thanks for the link fix...& I never said it was official, just something he mentioned when asked about healing the Synthesist, personally it makes sense to me.


Ok, well, to think about things based on what it says, there is nothing in the Synthesist description that says that spells cast on the Eidolon DON'T function normally.

It's counter productive to assume that all the Summoner spells that target the Eidolon simply stop working just because it's Fused (since that's not explicitly stated)

So it should be safe to assume that spells like Evolution Surge, Restore Eidolon and Rejuvinate Eidolon would all function normally. Since the Eidolon's hit points are treated as temporary hit points this would simply be a way to refill your temporary hit point pool. Nowhere in the description does it say a Summon can NOT heal his Eidolon through spells. The same thought applies to Restore Eidolon, which works like Restoration. So basically because you're Fused you're using those spells to heal the Eidolon, it just HAPPENS that the Eidolon is wrapped around you.

Logically, since all your physical stats are your Eidolon's then it stands to reason that damage to those scores affects your Eidolon FIRST... logic would assume that if you took Con damage it applies to your Eidolon's CON first and if it lowers THAT Con score to Zero it dismisses the Eidolon (same as if it was reduced to HP 0) and any carry over damage would be applied to you.

Think of your Fused Eidolon as a massive Boost to your abilities. Everything goes through the Eidolon FIRST, then YOU. The Eidolon is still acting as a huge meat shield, you just happen to be resting inside it and you don't get the benefit of two separate actions.


I can add these more from HERE:

Form
4a)Do you still pick your eidolon's base form, or must it be the humanoid base form? Quadraped seems like a better choice, allowing your summoner to pounce, and also gives your summoner an increased speed (since your speed is based on the limbs evolutions, right?)
4b)what form the synthesist will have? Would it be his own bipedal (most of the times) form or the eidolon's one? And then if he'll retain his bipedal form no matter if your eidolon is quadruped or serpentine, would it be able to use Mount, Pounce, Constrict and other evolutions that requires you to have a specific form?
4c)Would you gain also the free evolutions of the base form of the eidolon?

Evolutions
5a)In short, the Synthesist summoner archetype's eidolon does not have skills. The Synthesist gets to use the eidolon's evolutions. Does the Skilled evolution apply to the summoner's skills?
5b)Say you have the pounce evolution, 3 or more natural attacks from your eidolon and wielding a weapon as a summoner: can you attack with all of your natural attacks plus your weapon or does pounce only applies to the natural attacks of the eidolon?

This one from HERE:

Enlarge
6a)Does that mean that a Synthesist cannot use spells like Enlarge Person on herself? It says that she counts as both, which would allow it, but then it specifies "whichever is worse," as if for any effect she either counts as one or the other and not both.

This one from HERE:

Twin Eidolon
7)Does Twin Eidolon do anything that the Synthesist doesn't already have?

Original link HERE

Base Attack
8) Does a Fighter 19/Synthesist 1 have +1 bab or +20?


45ur4 wrote:


Enlarge
6a)Does that mean that a Synthesist cannot use spells like Enlarge Person on herself? It says that she counts as both, which would allow it, but then it specifies "whichever is worse," as if for any effect she either counts as one or the other and not both.

This one from HERE:

The synthesist still has access to share spells and thus can still cast enlarge person on himself/his eidolon.


9) How does a synthesist interact with the ability increase evolutions when they are used for mental stats? Basically, can a synthesist use the ability increase evolution to boost his charisma?
10) Similarly, lets take a synthesist who has access to web, breath weapon, poison, frightful presence, or the spell like ability evolutions. Does he use his hit dice or his eidolon and does he use his ability score or his eidolons?

These 2 questions might have different answers regarding a summoner in twin eidolon form since it says, he gets the evolutions as opposed to has access to them. Not sure what difference the use of those 2 words would have.


Quote:
4a)Do you still pick your eidolon's base form, or must it be the humanoid base form? Quadraped seems like a better choice, allowing your summoner to pounce, and also gives your summoner an increased speed (since your speed is based on the limbs evolutions, right?)

There is no rules text restricting you to biped-only. You can pick any base form. Normal PCs do not have a "base form" as that is a term specific to eidolons. If you go quadrupedal, then the eidolon can take pounce and you gain it as well (the eidolon is the one who has to meet the prereqs - the synthesist simply gets the evolutions its eidolon has).

As far as increased speed, I'll make another post about this in a second, but suffice it to say that yes you move faster as a quadruped than a biped.

Quote:
4b)what form the synthesist will have? Would it be his own bipedal (most of the times) form or the eidolon's one? And then if he'll retain his bipedal form no matter if your eidolon is quadruped or serpentine, would it be able to use Mount, Pounce, Constrict and other evolutions that requires you to have a specific form?

As stated above, the actual synthesist does not have a "base form" nor does he need one to get his eidolon's evolutions. If you took the mount evolution, then someone could ride your eidolon (which you're inside of) while you're fused. They wouldn't just be riding on your shoulders, they'd be on top of a quadrupedal mount.

Quote:
4c)Would you gain also the free evolutions of the base form of the eidolon?

You gain all the evolutions, including the free ones.

Quote:
5a)In short, the Synthesist summoner archetype's eidolon does not have skills. The Synthesist gets to use the eidolon's evolutions. Does the Skilled evolution apply to the summoner's skills?

Yes. Your eidolon takes the evolution skilled [UMD] or whatever, and you get the evolution as a result, gaining the +8 racial bonus to that skill.

Quote:
5b)Say you have the pounce evolution, 3 or more natural attacks from your eidolon and wielding a weapon as a summoner: can you attack with all of your natural attacks plus your weapon or does pounce only applies to the natural attacks of the eidolon?

Pounce allows you to make a full attack, so if you're able to wield a weapon, you can swing with it as part of a full attack. It's iffy whether the synthesist can use weapons in his own hands, as they are inside of the eidolon, so you may need the limbs (arms) evolution.

Quote:
6a)Does that mean that a Synthesist cannot use spells like Enlarge Person on herself? It says that she counts as both, which would allow it, but then it specifies "whichever is worse," as if for any effect she either counts as one or the other and not both.

A synthesist can at least use enlarge person on herself as a result of the share spells ability. RAW, though, any other character would not be allowed to use enlarge person on the synthesist while fused.

Quote:
7)Does Twin Eidolon do anything that the Synthesist doesn't already have?

Not really anything useful. It subsumes his gear, prevents him from using use-activated items, and gets rid of his racial traits. Might be good for a base race that has something like light sensitivity or something else detrimental. Not a good capstone for the synthesist, though.

Quote:
9) How does a synthesist interact with the ability increase evolutions when they are used for mental stats? Basically, can a synthesist use the ability increase evolution to boost his charisma?

Yes. The eidolon takes the evolution, and the synthesist gains use of that evolution. As written it's very clear that this is allowed.

Quote:
10) Similarly, lets take a synthesist who has access to web, breath weapon, poison, frightful presence, or the spell like ability evolutions. Does he use his hit dice or his eidolon and does he use his ability score or his eidolons?

As a GM I would rule that it's the synthesist's HD. The "eidolon's HD" wording is simply because it's usually the eidolon who's getting the evolution. When the synthesist is takes the evolution (whether through aspect or through being a synthesist), it should apply to the synthesist's HD instead.


Eidolons and speed: reading the rules it seems to be quite clear here, but I've seen some people miscalculate what a synthesist's speed is so I'll make sure everyone's on the same page as me.

The Fused Eidolon text does NOT say you use the eidolon's base speed. It DOES say that you gain its evolutions. Thus, a half-elf synthesist who takes the quadruped form should have a base speed of 50ft. He starts with a base speed of 30ft, and each Limbs [Legs] evolution increases that by 10ft.

This makes the 30ft base-speed races 10ft faster as synthesists than their eidolons would be as ordinary summoners, because eidolons start at a base speed of 20ft before evolutions.


This is a great collection/summary of the Synthesist questions. There are several ones I hadn't even thought of.

uriel222 wrote:

<snip>

Here we go:

Weapons and Equipment

Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

<snip>

This is one of my biggest problems (IE: neither I nor my GM could figure it out easily. Health was less of a problem, although I like James Jacobs' gut-reaction-this-is-not-an-official-ruling take on it.) The root of the problem is that the exact wording is as follows (emphasis added by me)

Quote:
The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.

Does this mean it replaces what the summoner had in both, or does it stack, or is it like wearing armor and then getting mage armor cast on you (ie: use the highest armor bonus available), or is it something else I haven't caught?


There's an additional problem beyond that: If the summoner cannot use his armour bonus, can he still use his armour special properties?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
There's an additional problem beyond that: If the summoner cannot use his armour bonus, can he still use his armour special properties?

He can't wear it at all, so no problem here


Shadow_of_death wrote:
He can't wear it at all, so no problem here

That's not necessarily true. The interpretations for this rule are all over the place and it won't be clear until there's something official.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
He can't wear it at all, so no problem here
That's not necessarily true. The interpretations for this rule are all over the place and it won't be clear until there's something official.

yeah I thought that too but as omelite and shadow have previously pointed out,

when you and the eidolon fuse, you are counted as 1 creature. If the eidolon cannot wear armor, then you cannot wear armor. Seems logical to me.

I personally think they could simplify this a lot if it functioned like polymorph and then made small exceptions where they wanted that would clear out the differences between fusing and polymorphing. Then your armor could fuse(you would not get the ac) but you would still get the constant effects of your armor. I dislike random distinctions made in the name of balance that do not actually cause balance to occur. A synthesist can obviously still get an armor bonus even though this small barrier is in their way. They are still going to have rocking ac.


thepuregamer wrote:

yeah I thought that too but as omelite and shadow have previously pointed out,

when you and the eidolon fuse, you are counted as 1 creature. If the eidolon cannot wear armor, then you cannot wear armor. Seems logical to me.

I won't believe that until I've seen an official clarification. There are two conflicting statements:

1. An eidolon cannot wear armour.

2. You can use all your gear while fused.

Which takes precedence?

That said, I won't let anyone play a synthesist in any game I run until it gets an overhaul.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravennus wrote:

Strangely enough, the Broodmaster Summoner Archetype is written fairly clearly and is (IMHO) underwhelming and underpowered... yet it is specifically banned from PFS use.

Yet the Master Summoner has more summon spam potential and is ok, and the Synthesist has so many unanswered questions about it that in it's current incarnation it's not even playable without severe GM houseruling/fiat.

Just to clarify on this point: Eidolons are considered companions/pets. PFS has implemented a hard limit of a single companion/pet being allowed to accompany a character on each adventure, even if you have multiple pets from different sources. Since this makes the Broodmaster kind of pointless, it was probably just banned rather than telling players they can only have one of their two Eidolons along.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

I won't believe that until I've seen an official clarification. There are two conflicting statements:

1. An eidolon cannot wear armour.

2. You can use all your gear while fused.

Which takes precedence?

That said, I won't let anyone play a synthesist in any game I run until it gets an overhaul.

Those don't conflict at all, you can use your armor all you want, says so right in number two. You just can't wear the armor, so yeah you can use it as long as your not wearing it.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The synthesist is wearing the armor, not the eidelon. The reason being that the eidelon isn't an eidelon. It's a suit of armor the synthesist is wearing over his body.

The core rules already cover stacking of armor. If you wear two pieces of armor, the more powerful armor is the one that works, and the other ceases to function. See Bracers of Armor and Armor threads. So, the armor worn by the synthesist when he's not got his eidelon body suit summoned works fine. As soon as he summons his eidelon, the base armor ceases to function. This is core rules 101 stuff, honestly.

And before someone argues that the eidelon is wearing the armor because they are one, just think about this. You are arguing that if you swallow a +4 headband, that you are wearing it. Last time I checked, you don't get credit for a headband by swallowing it. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
mdt wrote:

The synthesist is wearing the armor, not the eidelon. The reason being that the eidelon isn't an eidelon. It's a suit of armor the synthesist is wearing over his body.

The core rules already cover stacking of armor. If you wear two pieces of armor, the more powerful armor is the one that works, and the other ceases to function. See Bracers of Armor and Armor threads. So, the armor worn by the synthesist when he's not got his eidelon body suit summoned works fine. As soon as he summons his eidelon, the base armor ceases to function. This is core rules 101 stuff, honestly.

And before someone argues that the eidelon is wearing the armor because they are one, just think about this. You are arguing that if you swallow a +4 headband, that you are wearing it. Last time I checked, you don't get credit for a headband by swallowing it. :)

Eh, if the player can demonstrate how his character is swallowing the headband whole, I'll allow it. I might even be generous and say it doesn't take up the head slot.

But I'm not paying the hospital bill. ;)


mdt wrote:

The synthesist is wearing the armor, not the eidelon. The reason being that the eidelon isn't an eidelon. It's a suit of armor the synthesist is wearing over his body.

The core rules already cover stacking of armor. If you wear two pieces of armor, the more powerful armor is the one that works, and the other ceases to function. See Bracers of Armor and Armor threads. So, the armor worn by the synthesist when he's not got his eidelon body suit summoned works fine. As soon as he summons his eidelon, the base armor ceases to function. This is core rules 101 stuff, honestly.

And before someone argues that the eidelon is wearing the armor because they are one, just think about this. You are arguing that if you swallow a +4 headband, that you are wearing it. Last time I checked, you don't get credit for a headband by swallowing it. :)

But, what if you only choose a Natural Armor bonus for your Eidelon?

Then there is no problem stacking the Natural Armor with the Armor bonus you get from worn armor. They are two completely separate types of bonuses.

That's the main issue. Combined with the line about being able to use all your gear, it makes a decent case.

Honestly, I could see it going either way, but no one can say this is completely cut and dry. Clarification would be helpful.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

When I ran a synthesist enemy against my party, he was so massively overpowered without even trying to optimise him that I gave the party double reward for his defeat. They got quite lucky with crits, too, and still didn't manage to kill him. He escaped using some clever evolution surges.

I worked out his fused form as not permitting armour bonus from his armour, but it didn't require him to actually take off his armour. That would have been silly and awkward.

In any case, it's still an unclear ability. Most of synthesist is unclear. It just needs an overhaul. Not just mere errata. I'd call for a Synthesist 2.0.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

When I ran a synthesist enemy against my party, he was so massively overpowered without even trying to optimise him that I gave the party double reward for his defeat. They got quite lucky with crits, too, and still didn't manage to kill him. He escaped using some clever evolution surges.

I worked out his fused form as not permitting armour bonus from his armour, but it didn't require him to actually take off his armour. That would have been silly and awkward.

In any case, it's still an unclear ability. Most of synthesist is unclear. It just needs an overhaul. Not just mere errata. I'd call for a Synthesist 2.0.

yeah this is another reason I am not personally fighting for synthesists to get to use their armor while fused(armor abilities might be nice though). A synthesist has godlike ac. He doesn't need additional ac from armor(considering he can already get 4 from mage armor). If I optimized a synthesist npc toward ac, I have doubts that a party would ever hit him.


Correct me if I am wrong here, but the Eidelon gets a free armor bonus as it levels up. This would never stack with armor worn by the Summoner because armor bonuses don't stack.

Wouldn't even work with bracers of armor or mage armor.

I am estimating an AC of 28 at lvl 10 (off the top of my head)

Can I get an example of them having 'God Like AC?'

For real, though, not being snarky :)


The armour bonus the eidolon gains can be assigned to natural armour or armour bonus. I don't know why you'd ever pick armour bonus. Natural does it all and allows you to benefit from bracers, mage armour, etc.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:

When I ran a synthesist enemy against my party, he was so massively overpowered without even trying to optimise him that I gave the party double reward for his defeat. They got quite lucky with crits, too, and still didn't manage to kill him. He escaped using some clever evolution surges.

I worked out his fused form as not permitting armour bonus from his armour, but it didn't require him to actually take off his armour. That would have been silly and awkward.

In any case, it's still an unclear ability. Most of synthesist is unclear. It just needs an overhaul. Not just mere errata. I'd call for a Synthesist 2.0.

Color me curious: I'd like to see both your build and the Eidolon's stat block as if it were a separate creature, if that's okay?


Give me your email address and I'll send it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Give me your email address and I'll send it.

Email:
chriskenneyus at gmail dot com

AceMcGrudy wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the Eidelon gets a free armor bonus as it levels up. This would never stack with armor worn by the Summoner because armor bonuses don't stack.

Wouldn't even work with bracers of armor or mage armor.

I am estimating an AC of 28 at lvl 10 (off the top of my head)

Can I get an example of them having 'God Like AC?'

For real, though, not being snarky :)

I will run down the numbers for you. By lvl 10 a quadruped eidolon can have:

2 base natural armor
+8 natural armor from their pet progression
+6 from improved natural armor evolution(he can take it 3 times by lvl 10)
+4 dex bonus to ac
+4 mage armor
+10 base
+4 na from barkskin
---------
38 ac

If you are a synthesist, that ac would go up to 40 since you would have the shielded meld ability as well.

Note that 0 gold has been spent on boosting AC in this example. You could also drop cash on a ring of protection , dex boosting items, and weapons of defender if you were so inclined.


Sent!


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Sent!

Hey, now I'm curious too!


Slaunyeh wrote:
Hey, now I'm curious too!

Give me your address and I'll forward it to you.


mdt wrote:

The synthesist is wearing the armor, not the eidelon. The reason being that the eidelon isn't an eidelon. It's a suit of armor the synthesist is wearing over his body.

The core rules already cover stacking of armor. If you wear two pieces of armor, the more powerful armor is the one that works, and the other ceases to function. See Bracers of Armor and Armor threads. So, the armor worn by the synthesist when he's not got his eidelon body suit summoned works fine. As soon as he summons his eidelon, the base armor ceases to function. This is core rules 101 stuff, honestly.

And before someone argues that the eidelon is wearing the armor because they are one, just think about this. You are arguing that if you swallow a +4 headband, that you are wearing it. Last time I checked, you don't get credit for a headband by swallowing it. :)

I can't find the rule in the synthesist saying it stops being an eidelon, so unless you can point me to it then that hasn't changed, which means the synthesist has all the benefits and drawbacks of being himself and an eidelon. So he can't fuse if he is wearing armor because that would break the "eidelons cant wear armor" rule.

I don't get your last paragraph, what does that have to do with it?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:
Hey, now I'm curious too!
Give me your address and I'll forward it to you.

You know my address :)


Shadow_of_death wrote:


I can't find the rule in the synthesist saying it stops being an eidelon, so unless you can point me to it then that hasn't changed, which means the synthesist has all the benefits and drawbacks of being himself and an eidelon. So he can't fuse if he is wearing armor because that would break the "eidelons cant wear armor" rule.

I can't find the rule saying that the synthesist becomes an eidolon at all. He becomes a humanoid / outsider. It doesn't say anywhere that I can see that he becomes an eidolon. All the synthesist does is gain access to "the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions." I'm not sure the eidolon's inability to wear armour is either.

That's not to say I don't agree with your interpretation (I wouldn't let the synthesist benefit from armour either) but I don't think it's as clear cut as that, in the writeup.


Slaunyeh wrote:


I can't find the rule saying that the synthesist becomes an eidolon at all. He becomes a humanoid / outsider. It doesn't say anywhere that I can see that he becomes an eidolon. All the synthesist does is gain access to "the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions." I'm not sure the eidolon's inability to wear armour is either.

That's not to say I don't agree with your interpretation (I wouldn't let the synthesist benefit from armour either) but I don't think it's as clear cut as that, in the writeup.

Even better, I am pretty sure the not wearing armor falls under that. Where else would you put the inability to wear armor other then the special abilities section of a stat block?


Slaunyeh wrote:

I can't find the rule saying that the synthesist becomes an eidolon at all. He becomes a humanoid / outsider. It doesn't say anywhere that I can see that he becomes an eidolon. All the synthesist does is gain access to "the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions." I'm not sure the eidolon's inability to wear armour is either.

That's not to say I don't agree with your interpretation (I wouldn't let the synthesist benefit from armour either) but I don't think it's as clear cut as that, in the writeup.

The Eidolon and the synthesist are now one creature (i.e. if the synthesist is wearing armor than the eidolon also counts as wearing armor):

Synthesist wrote:
The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
Synthesist wrote:
Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature.

Eidolons can't wear armor:

Summoner: Eidolon stat table area wrote:
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon’s base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon’s base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Playing Devil's Advocate here for a moment...

d20pfsrd wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

Armor counts as gear everywhere else it's referenced in this manner, and this appears as part of the description of the Fused Eidolon. It's all a question of which is intended to override the other. Frankly, RAW, I'm pretty sure the above means a Fused Eidolon can equip armor just fine.

EDIT: That said, I'm not especially comfortable in allowing it. As a compromise, I might require the Fused Eidolon to grant an Armor bonus instead of a Natural Armor bonus, so that armor is only of benefit for either its' special qualities or if its' armor bonus is superior to what the Eidolon would normally have.


Shadow_of_death wrote:


Even better, I am pretty sure the not wearing armor falls under that. Where else would you put the inability to wear armor other then the special abilities section of a stat block?

I can tell you exactly where the not wearing armour part falls under. It's in the Eidolon Armor Bonus section, which is an Eidolon special ability that you, as a synthesist, specifically do get. So that should settle that, without getting into semantic guesswork. :)


ThePureGamer wrote:

I will run down the numbers for you. By lvl 10 a quadruped eidolon can have:

2 base natural armor
+8 natural armor from their pet progression
+6 from improved natural armor evolution(he can take it 3 times by lvl 10)
+4 dex bonus to ac
+4 mage armor
+10 base
+4 na from barkskin
---------
38 ac

If you are a synthesist, that ac would go up to 40 since you would have the shielded meld ability as well.

Note that 0 gold has been spent on boosting AC in this example. You could also drop cash on a ring of protection , dex boosting items, and weapons of defender if you were so inclined.

Ah, my fault, I did not read the part of the Eidolen write up that said you could choose natural armor or armor. I have no idea why anyone would chose regular armor as the bonus.


Mmmh about the synthesist BAB... It's easy to know what's his BAB is :

The Synthesist 1 /warrior 10 just wake up in the morning... His BAB is 10... He invoke his Eidolon, all the fused eidolon rules apply : his BAB go to 1...

I don't see where you can add the fighter BAB in this since it doesn't say it replace the Synthesist class BAB but the current value of the character BAB by the Eidolon's one... ;)


mdt wrote:

The synthesist is wearing the armor, not the eidelon. The reason being that the eidelon isn't an eidelon. It's a suit of armor the synthesist is wearing over his body.

The core rules already cover stacking of armor. If you wear two pieces of armor, the more powerful armor is the one that works, and the other ceases to function. See Bracers of Armor and Armor threads. So, the armor worn by the synthesist when he's not got his eidelon body suit summoned works fine. As soon as he summons his eidelon, the base armor ceases to function. This is core rules 101 stuff, honestly.

That's false. The armor bonus is overruled because bonuses of the same type don't stack unless explicitly defined. THAT is why Bracers of Armor "don't work" with Chain Shirt or better. Just because something else gives you a higher armor bonus doesn't mean your armor properties are turned off. Will Bracers of Armor invalidate any special properties on your Leather Armor?

It appears the Synthesist is all the stupid extrarules created so the Eidolon can exist coming to a head.


Here is how I would rule this :

Weapons and Equipment

Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

1a) While fused, does the synthesist keep any armour bonuses from armour he is wearing? Does this stack with the Eidolon's armor bonus?

In the morning the Synthesist wake up, done his armor, then call his Eidolon... He lost all his armor benefit except from those with use "on command" and such (exemple : with a celestial armor he lose all benefit from the armor, but can use fly once per day). If the Eidolon disapear he can use his own armor again...

1b) While fused, can the summoner use any weapons he is holding, in place of, or in combination with, the Eidolon's natural attacks? What about other items (like wands)? What if the Eidolon doesn't have hands?

Since, basically, you are the Eidolon when fused you can use every object the character can use (wand, sword, etc.) provided you can wield them... Having more than two hand will not qualify you for multiattack though since the Synthesist cannot take the feat himself...

Hitpoints

Fused Eidolon wrote:
The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane...While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.

2a) Is there any way of healing the Eidolon (i.e. replacing the temporary hitpoints)? What happens when the synthesist/eidolon is targeted with cure light wounds? What about rejuvenate eidolon? Channeled positive energy? Negative?

Well, for this I would treat the temporary HP as "Special temporary HP" and allow magic and other things to work on them... But no natural healing...

Ability Drain/Damage

3a) Assuming the summoner is attacked by a shadow while fused, and his strength is drained, what happens? What about when the Eidolon is dismissed?

Since both the Eidolon and the Synthesist has been touched at the same time they will suffer both from the drain, so I will rule that the Synthesist lose an equal amount of STR if the Eidolon is dismissed. Though I would also rule that a restore spell heal them both too... ;)

3b) If the fused Summoner/Eidolon takes ability damage or drain, can this be healed while remaining fused? Does it persist after the Eidolon is resummoned?

It will persist until healed... But I would rule that you can heal them both at the same time (they are the same when they are fused ;) )

Well, for the BAB I already have explained myself so... :)


Loengrin wrote:

Having more than two hand will not qualify you for multiattack though since the Synthesist cannot take the feat himself...

a synthesist gets multiattack for free while fused at lvl 10.

a synthesist can take two weapon fighting and then when he fuses and has more than 2 arms, it becomes replaced by multiweapon fighting.

Also a synthesist can directly qualify for multiweapon fighting at lvl 10 when he can pick up extra arms through his aspect ability.

Also a synthesist could directly qualify for multiweapon fighting by staying fused for more than a day during an early lvl(by avoiding sleeping). bonuses that last for more than 24 hours are considered permanent.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.

Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.


Chris Mortika wrote:

The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.

Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.

That's an interesting interpretation, but since it's fluff reasoning (official or not), it really doesn't have a standing on whether or not "wearing" your Eidolon prevents you from equipping armor.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Cartigan, I make a lot of my decisions based on "fluff reasoning". That's because I expect the mechanics to serve the flavor of the game and the stories people want to tell.

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