Hello All,
Reading through the Time Oracle's abilities/mysteries (all of which are fairly strong), I'm thinking that the ability Erase From Time is very overpowered. I know that there is a touch attack and a save involved, but I'm thinking that any fight against one enemy (or even two) is essentially over if it works. For example:
--Erase from Time (Su): As a melee touch attack, you can temporarily remove a creature from time altogether. The target creature must make a Fortitude save or vanish completely for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your oracle level (minimum 1 round). No magic or divinations can detect the creature during this time, as it exists outside of time and space—in effect, the creature ceases to exist for the duration of this ability. At the end of the duration, the creature reappears unharmed in the space it last occupied (or the nearest possible space, if the original space is now occupied). You can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day at 11th level.
*Enemy is removed from time for, let's say, 5 rounds.
*For 5 rounds people buff and ready for enemy's return
*Characters' ready actions to attack/cast spells at enemy upon return.
*Enemy is either dead or gets one action before getting pummeled by PCs again.
There was an ability like this in 3.0 and I remember many people using this tactic for those characters. I just hate that this ability can basically become the center for every boss fight when it is used.
Here are my questions:
1)Is this removing from time a teleportation effect? If so, that would limit it to some degree.
2)Has anyone encountered/thought about this issue yet?
Thanks
No different than any of a number of SOL effects anyway. Actually less effective than say... Flesh to Stone.
No different than any of a number of SOL effects anyway. Actually less effective than say... Flesh to Stone.
But Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell (not supernatural, so no SR for Erase) that can be reversed by a few options. Also, there are a number of enemies that are immune to petrification. That makes it pretty different from this ability, at least in my opinion. Plus, this is a mystery that can be taken at any level and eventually can be used twice a day.
In my opinion Talynonyx is right, wizards have plenty of spells that could remove an ennemy from combat. They sometimes even have a few options for saving throw, and Fortitude is often a weak choice.
So you got 2++ times (and mid levels) a day, will save + SR (both can be boosted quite a bit) against 2 times a day at mid levels against fortitude save. Okay your DC is a bit higher.
All in all you might come up a little ahead, but that is because yours is not a spell out of a dozen others.
It's a fair ability that would befit a wizard, and therefor is not on your spelllist, but a mystery.
In my opinion Talynonyx is right, wizards have plenty of spells that could remove an ennemy from combat. They sometimes even have a few options for saving throw, and Fortitude is often a weak choice.
So you got 2++ times (and mid levels) a day, will save + SR (both can be boosted quite a bit) against 2 times a day at mid levels against fortitude save. Okay your DC is a bit higher.
All in all you might come up a little ahead, but that is because yours is not a spell out of a dozen others.
It's a fair ability that would befit a wizard, and therefor is not on your spelllist, but a mystery.
I'm a little confused by your comment.
I'm not really sure where you are getting will save and SR? (and how does one boost SR again?) Erase From Time is a Fortitude save and no SR because the ability is a supernatural ability.
Effects like petrification (from Flesh to Stone) or say Finger of Death ( a death effect) are high level spells that certain creature types are immune to and also there are options to undo or resist those effects.
Erase From Time, as written, works on any kind of creature. It removes them completely and gives PCs plenty of time to buff and ready attacks for the creature's return. It may not seem too bad, but in practice it seems quite powerful for a mystery. That is my big concern.
I'm not really sure where you are getting will save and SR? (and how does one boost SR again?) Erase From Time is a Fortitude save and no SR because the ability is a supernatural ability.
Correct. No spell resistance involved against supernatural abilities.
Erase From Time, as written, works on any kind of creature.
Can't agree at all.
This ability is supernatural, and requires a melee touch attack and a Fortitude save.
Because it's supernatural, it won't work in dead magic areas or in an antimagic field.
Because it requires a Fortitude save, all undead AND constructs are immune to this; they are immune to any effects that require such a save.
It is also possible for a monster, or a "boss", as you put it, to bolster touch AC enough to cause the Oracle to miss. Also, a bad guy facing a level 11 Oracle AND his buddies *should* have some spell or item that can allow him to be nowhere NEAR the Oracle with this ability, and get away each time the Oracle gets close, or simply keep him away.
And you can only try it once or twice a day. If the bad guy makes his save, that's it for you.
If you think it's overpowered, and you're the DM, pit the good guys against a bad guy with this ability, and let's see how great it is for the bad Oracle to get within touch attack range with the heroes. :) Oh, and watch them roll a 20 on their Fortitude save.
I am a little turned off by the fact that every Time Oracle ability is (Su), because in an antimagic field, the Time Oracle is basically just a powerless character with rogue BAB but absolutely no cool rogue abilities ...
Not worse than the Witch's Slumber hex for example, which actually lasts twice as long, and is just a save, not a touch attack as well.
I'm not really sure where you are getting will save and SR? (and how does one boost SR again?) Erase From Time is a Fortitude save and no SR because the ability is a supernatural ability.Correct. No spell resistance involved against supernatural abilities.
Erase From Time, as written, works on any kind of creature.Can't agree at all.
This ability is supernatural, and requires a melee touch attack and a Fortitude save.
Because it's supernatural, it won't work in dead magic areas or in an antimagic field.
Because it requires a Fortitude save, all undead AND constructs are immune to this; they are immune to any effects that require such a save.
It is also possible for a monster, or a "boss", as you put it, to bolster touch AC enough to cause the Oracle to miss. Also, a bad guy facing a level 11 Oracle AND his buddies *should* have some spell or item that can allow him to be nowhere NEAR the Oracle with this ability, and get away each time the Oracle gets close, or simply keep him away.
And you can only try it once or twice a day. If the bad guy makes his save, that's it for you.
If you think it's overpowered, and you're the DM, pit the good guys against a bad guy with this ability, and let's see how great it is for the bad Oracle to get within touch attack range with the heroes. :) Oh, and watch them roll a 20 on their Fortitude save.
I am a little turned off by the fact that every Time Oracle ability is (Su), because in an antimagic field, the Time Oracle is basically just a powerless character with rogue BAB but absolutely no cool rogue abilities ...
You bring up some good points. I'm still not sure that this wouldn't work on an undead or construct, especially depending that some the Time Oracle's abilities do special things to undead and constructs.
Also, raising touch AC is generally pretty difficult to get significantly high in a short amount of time and most Oracles will have the BAB and buffs to hit with a touch attack. Plus, I wouldn't allow the enemy to buff against such an attack unless they knew of the Oracle's power; if every enemy tried in every fight, that bordering meta-gaming.
In addition, you are ignoring the Time Hop ability of the Time Oracle that lets him/her move around fairly easily. Yes, enemies may have means to move around with great ability, but Oracles are fairly good at that as well.
Not worse than the Witch's Slumber hex for example, which actually lasts twice as long, and is just a save, not a touch attack as well.
Except that it's a sleep effect to which many creatures types are immune. Also, others can rouse the creature as a standard action or if the creature takes damage, it wakes up.
That Slumber hex is pretty great but not as bad as this ability, in my opinion.
If you think it's overpowered, and you're the DM, pit the good guys against a bad guy with this ability, and let's see how great it is for the bad Oracle to get within touch attack range with the heroes. :) Oh, and watch them roll a 20 on their Fortitude save.
The problem with that logic is that what's good for the party to have against one foe is useless for one foe to have against a party of 3-6 adventurers. So what one character is gone for a few rounds? The others are still beating on you, so you can't arrange the synchronized massacre that the PCs could.
The solution, of course, is to never throw a single monster against the party. Sure, they could use it on the BBEG, but they can't ready for him to reappear because they have to run around dealing with the minions that are harassing them. And if the PCs say "These minions are a joke" and just ready their attacks anyway, the minions can all ready to do something to interfere when the PCs take their readied actions. Maybe including standing in the spot that the BBEG would reappear in, causing him to be diverted.
But a solo boss (that isn't so high above the party level that they cannot affect him at all) is a dead boss.
Not worse than the Witch's Slumber hex for example, which actually lasts twice as long, and is just a save, not a touch attack as well.
Except that it's a sleep effect to which many creatures types are immune. Also, others can rouse the creature as a standard action or if the creature takes damage, it wakes up.
That Slumber hex is pretty great but not as bad as this ability, in my opinion.
All true, but it's been stated before that all undead for example are immune to the Erase from Time ability too. Yes, they can't be roused, but at the same time, they can't be attacked either.
Also Erase is 1/day, while Slumber is 1/day per target.It's obviously not the same, each has different advantages I think, but they're not that different
You bring up some good points. I'm still not sure that this wouldn't work on an undead or construct, especially depending that some the Time Oracle's abilities do special things to undead and constructs.
I can't do anything about you being unsure it would work against undead or constructs ... I'm just pointing out the rules of the system.
If you're the DM, you're free to ignore the rules, but your players may have some serious questions about why you are doing so.
If you prefer following the rules, then the rules are clear: this ability requires a Fortitude save, and certain creature traits (undead and construct) render those creatures *immune* to anything that would require a Fortitude save.
If you prefer following the rules, then the rules are clear: this ability requires a Fortitude save, and certain creature traits (undead and construct) render those creatures *immune* to anything that would require a Fortitude save.
And if you don't believe it, you can check here yourself: SRD
Especially this line:
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
You bring up some good points. I'm still not sure that this wouldn't work on an undead or construct, especially depending that some the Time Oracle's abilities do special things to undead and constructs.
I can't do anything about you being unsure it would work against undead or constructs ... I'm just pointing out the rules of the system.
If you're the DM, you're free to ignore the rules, but your players may have some serious questions about why you are doing so.
If you prefer following the rules, then the rules are clear: this ability requires a Fortitude save, and certain creature traits (undead and construct) render those creatures *immune* to anything that would require a Fortitude save.
I know the rules quite well and am not planning on ignoring them at all (they work in my favor in this case, actually). I was looking for clarification on this particular ability, given the context of the Time mystery.
I think I share similar views to Bobson. This ability isn't going to screw PCs over very much (and will likely just end up with one player being bored for an hour+). If one of my players makes a Time oracle and chooses this ability, I will have to make sure that my low Fort save enemies are rarely, if ever, alone.
I'd love to hear from people who have used this ability/seen this used in their games.
What is the fortitude save for this spell?
Any battle with only one or two enemies is over already.
Unless the enemies are 5 or 6 CRs above APL.
What is the fortitude save for this spell?
It's a revelation, not a spell.
Unless otherwise noted, the DC to save against these revelations is equal to 10 + 1/2 the oracle’s level + the oracle’s Charisma modifier.
But a solo boss (that isn't so high above the party level that they cannot affect him at all) is a dead boss.
+1
It doesn't matter what abilities the PCs have, because the action economy is too great at this point. The time oracle ability in question exacerbates this very issue for sure, but only up to twice a day.
I don't see this ability being too bad. It needs a touch and a save, which is enough for it to not work every time it's used. Besides, not every encounter is meant to be very deadly anyway. Some are meant to establish the PCs as a force to be reckoned with, and playing otherwise can damage the fun factor. YMMV, of course.
In other words, in scenarios where this ability might be a problem, are ones where the PCs are supposed to win in the first place.
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I'm just hoping that the displacement of the target is for a piece of space time, and so the party still has knowledge that the foe used to exist, and will exist in the future.
Thus I would remove the phrase in the description: "you can temporarily remove a creature from time altogether". Having, you can temporarily remove a creature from an interval of time implies they have not been history erased completely.
Its fine, on average the hardest save to beat is fort, construct and undead are immune to it, you have to go into melee to use it, you can only use it twice per day.
You need to rapidly increase fort save DC's for them to ever be worthwhile. If you can't access Ability Focus, you won't even consistently have the effect stick.
The solution, of course, is to never throw a single monster against the party. Sure, they could use it on the BBEG, but they can't ready for him to reappear because they have to run around dealing with the minions that are harassing them. And if the PCs say "These minions are a joke" and just ready their attacks anyway, the minions can all ready to do something to interfere when the PCs take their readied actions. Maybe including standing in the spot that the BBEG would reappear in, causing him to be diverted.
As a player I would have some serious questions about this tactic being used. Unless these minions are spell casters (who both succeeded a check to know what spell was cast AND have sufficient knowledge of that specific spell to know its parameters) how do they know what this effect is and to position themselves to block it? From the point of view of the minions it should appear their boss either teleported away or was mysteriously dispatched by the group - either of which arguably would cause them to flee (scenario dependant of course).
You need to rapidly increase fort save DC's for them to ever be worthwhile. If you can't access Ability Focus, you won't even consistently have the effect stick.
The group I DM for is finding this out with Ice Tomb.
They are currently encountering giants with fighter and barbarian levels.
I was impressed the witch managed to get Baleful Polymorph to stick on a giant with seven barbarian levels and superstitious. Much hilarity ensued at that point.