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Does Paizo have any interest in a "Book of Good" of sorts?


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Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

That is, something that offers heavily good-flavored options for all classes, rather than just the divine classes.

Stuff like good-aligned Qinggong ki powers*, heavily good flavored martial arts feats*, holy barbarian archetypes, celestial-bonded summoners, and so forth.

Basically a book that supports Super-Good characters of all classes.

*I know I keep asking about these, but it really would be nice to have those as official options considering there are currently none while there are evil options already in the game.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*waits for Sean and James to crush Mikaze's hopes and dreams again*

:D


TriOmegaZero wrote:

*waits for Sean and James to crush Mikaze's hopes and dreams again*

:D

That's kinda harsh, TOZ

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not the one that keeps shooting it down.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Technically no one has said anything against those concepts. James did say he didn't get why Blood Crow Strike was tagged as evil as well, and with Sean's post here, I'm hopeful for some sort of Holy Hadoken at least. :)

As well as the other stuff, particularly holy barbarians.


I'm less interested in more good, and more interested in more alignment stuff.

While Evil has a large amount of stuff going for it (For whatever reason), and good is conspiquiously absent a lot of the time, Chaos and Law are also rarely mentioned. More class options that bark up those alignments would be cool too.

Also, what's really stopping an LG monk from using Blood Crow Strike? The only thing inherently evil about it is the fact that part of the energy channeled is negative (means it end ups healing undead or w/e), but there's no reason why an LG monk couldn't be utilitarian about it and use it when needed, as opposed to bread and butter.

Ki Leech is much harder to justify.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Heck, really the negative energy bit shouldn't even be evil to begin with, since good clerics can cast inflict with no worries. That and it's actually noted that the negative energy involved in BCS doesn't even heal undead.

I don't get it, but it's still tagged as [evil], which going strictly by the rules makes simply using it evil. Makes it a real theme killer if you're wanting your monk to be paladin-level Good, especially if you're looking for a "hadoken" to be a frequent part of your arsenal.

For what it's worth, I would certainly allow a player to use a good flavored version of Blood Crow Strike or even just have it be neutral(or alignment modular). But it doesn't really help me as a player.

But yeah, alignment exemplar options all around for all classes would be really nice.


Well, as an aside: Hadoken always had the evil discriptor, comes from the same power the Akuma taps into that turns him into a demon by allowing it to consume him.

The thing about Ryu and Goken (That's his teacher right?) Is that this use this evil power either for personal perfection, (Ryu) or in his ever-lasting struggle against Akuma (Goken).

At least that what I remember last time I checked Street Fighter Lore, lord knows that isn't supper consistent.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Will it include Holy Poisons, Holy Curses, Holy Negative Energy and Holy Liches? ;-)


Mikaze wrote:
That is, something that offers heavily good-flavored options for all classes

Anti-paladin?

By the way, Faiths of Purity isn't about divine classes. At least the ad-speak claims it's for all worshippers of those deities, not (just) about the priests.


Mikaze wrote:
I'm hopeful for some sort of Holy Hadoken at least. :)

Are we talking about the 9th-level spell Hadoken created by Black Mage, that is powered by love?

Spoiler:
Yes, love. Every time BM casts that spell, a little love is consumed and gone from the world forever. Why do you think he sacrificed a whole orphanage to the dark powers? He wasn't doing that for fun! He's not a sicko!

Osirion RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Mikaze wrote:

Technically no one has said anything against those concepts. James did say he didn't get why Blood Crow Strike was tagged as evil as well, and with Sean's post here, I'm hopeful for some sort of Holy Hadoken at least. :)

As well as the other stuff, particularly holy barbarians.

There might or might not end up being a celestial totem chain for barbarians in Ultimate Combat. As in, you never know for sure what will come out after development and editing. We shall see. :)

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Andoran

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Hello, we are the Shades of Grey. We mix sweet and spice, pleasure and pain, war and peace, agony and ecstasy. Why settle for absolute extremes, when you can walk the fine line? It's SO much more exciting.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey. We mix sweet and spice, pleasure and pain, war and peace, agony and ecstasy. Why settle for absolute extremes, when you can walk the fine line? It's SO much more exciting.

"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light."

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

No one at Paizo, as far as I know, "keeps shooting down" good guy books. In fact, I think that a book about holy crusaders or paladins or Empyreal Lords or something like that would be pretty cool.

Thing is that we've generally got a year's worth of books planned out at any one time, so once we hear folks start asking for a type of book, it's often more than a year before we can really react to such requests. Or longer, in the case of books that have fewer products each year.


Interesting: Based on this post, the current tilt towards evil options is an act of serendipity.

I kinda dig it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

No one at Paizo, as far as I know, "keeps shooting down" good guy books. In fact, I think that a book about holy crusaders or paladins or Empyreal Lords or something like that would be pretty cool.

Thing is that we've generally got a year's worth of books planned out at any one time, so once we hear folks start asking for a type of book, it's often more than a year before we can really react to such requests. Or longer, in the case of books that have fewer products each year.

But James, that means that you don't have the books for one-year-and-one-month planned out, and to fill items in that slot you have to start planning now. Or soon at least.


Actually, what I'd like to see is content for making Evil clearly malevolent and Good clearly benevolent, as in the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds from Wizards.

I am of two minds on the "balance through parity" that Wizards took. On the one hand, I firmly believe that options like "Ravages" (poisons that only affect Evil, so they are not Evil to use) are stretching things. Good entities in my homebrew would not buy that rationalization, and would concemn the use of a clone of Poison as being, well, Poison. Conversely, though, I can see where a toolkit needs to present many options for the GM to pick from in detailing his/her world. So, oddly, I support the parity concept in order to give GMs the tools they need to build the worlds they desire.

I know Paizo has no desire to re-create either of those books, both out or respect for them being Wizards' IP and from a desire to do new stuff. What I would hope to see, eventually, is a "Heroes and Villains Toolkit" of some sort.. something that makes clear being aligned with the Celestials takes more than just being "not as bad as some others", and being favored by the Fiends is not a matter of being grumpy permanently.

Probably, this kind of content would fit well with the requested/ discussed book for "fixing" high level play. Certainly, such content would be one way to present a transition to the Great Beyond for adventuring in the planes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Apathy. :)

So much more boring than evil or chaos.


I just hope that it avoids a lot of the very easy caricatures of the good / evil line like was done in BoED such as poison = evil. Honestly though, I'd be more interested looking at the law / chaos line.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Apathy. :)

So much more boring than evil or chaos.

I hate these filthy Neutrals, Dark_Mistress. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
LoreKeeper wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

No one at Paizo, as far as I know, "keeps shooting down" good guy books. In fact, I think that a book about holy crusaders or paladins or Empyreal Lords or something like that would be pretty cool.

Thing is that we've generally got a year's worth of books planned out at any one time, so once we hear folks start asking for a type of book, it's often more than a year before we can really react to such requests. Or longer, in the case of books that have fewer products each year.

But James, that means that you don't have the books for one-year-and-one-month planned out, and to fill items in that slot you have to start planning now. Or soon at least.

Yup. Which we are.

Keep in mind as well that we haven't announced all of the books we've got planned out between today and a year from today. We might be months into the production of a book folks have been asking for and no one but us would know it.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:


I hate these filthy Neutrals, Dark_Mistress. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to watch out for.


James Jacobs wrote:
We might be months into the production of a book folks have been asking for and no one but us would know it.

Where does one place the line between true Evil and a merely Neutral cat playing with it`s prey? ;-)


Personally, I'd like more options for certain classes to be more neutral. The Cavalier for example, most of the orders are generally "good" or promote your own servitude to evil people. (Never a good thing)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
We might be months into the production of a book folks have been asking for and no one but us would know it.
Where does one place the line between true Evil and a merely Neutral cat playing with it`s prey? ;-)

It all depends on the amount of pleasure derived. ;)

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Indecision? Torn allegiances? Disgust at the debate of law vs chaos / good vs evil? Having read too much philosophy (especially the likes of Hume)?


KaeYoss wrote:
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Clearly this is a bastion of neutrality KaeYoss. I can almost hear the beige alerts sounding.


KaeYoss wrote:
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Maybe it's something in the chocolate.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

No one at Paizo, as far as I know, "keeps shooting down" good guy books. In fact, I think that a book about holy crusaders or paladins or Empyreal Lords or something like that would be pretty cool.

Thing is that we've generally got a year's worth of books planned out at any one time, so once we hear folks start asking for a type of book, it's often more than a year before we can really react to such requests. Or longer, in the case of books that have fewer products each year.

I'd be interested in such a product... as in interested in buying something like what James Jacobs just described.

~Dean

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Apathy. :)

So much more boring than evil or chaos.

I hate these filthy Neutrals, Dark_Mistress. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

True not to mention they are just so boring... at least good are fun to torment mentally. :)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:


I hate these filthy Neutrals, Dark_Mistress. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to watch out for.

Nice Jack Sparrow quote.


Psh, all ya'll evil folk think'n it's cool to be evil cuz it's edgy and hip.

Sometimes it's nice to be cheered on and not have to worry about being found out for the skeletons you have stashed in your closet. Even if those skeletons helped save the town.

And no-one knows how to rock neutral, unless you do, and then it's a blast.

Andoran

I would like to see a set of books for all alignments. Good, Evil and Neutral. I wish the Book of Righteous from Green Ronin would be updated to Pathfinder standards. Right now Paizo is in a somewhat unique position to publish books as needed on certain subjects.

Contributor

The trick is making a big book of good and making it not come across as boring, or offensive to X group, or people harping on the agathions with the f word. :)

But whatever it is, please no 'poison that's not poison because poison is evil and this is holy and it only does horrific pain and agony to evil creatures which makes it good'.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:


There might or might not end up being a celestial totem chain for barbarians in Ultimate Combat. As in, you never know for sure what will come out after development and editing. We shall see. :)

:) This has me really excited about my next barbarian! Thanks big time! Here's hoping it makes it through!

James Jacobs wrote:

No one at Paizo, as far as I know, "keeps shooting down" good guy books. In fact, I think that a book about holy crusaders or paladins or Empyreal Lords or something like that would be pretty cool.

I can't speak for everyone but I would buy the hell out of such a book. :)

James Jacobs wrote:
Keep in mind as well that we haven't announced all of the books we've got planned out between today and a year from today. We might be months into the production of a book folks have been asking for and no one but us would know it.

crosses fingers

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Well, as an aside: Hadoken always had the evil discriptor, comes from the same power the Akuma taps into that turns him into a demon by allowing it to consume him.

The thing about Ryu and Goken (That's his teacher right?) Is that this use this evil power either for personal perfection, (Ryu) or in his ever-lasting struggle against Akuma (Goken).

At least that what I remember last time I checked Street Fighter Lore, lord knows that isn't supper consistent.

I'm really using "hadoken" as a catch all term for what it seems almost everyone does in those games(and others!). :)

IIRC, it's generally just defined as a ranged blast of chi/ki across the board, and the Akuma/Evil Ryu stuff was mostly related to them being addicted to fightin' all the time. There's still everyone else that has the same general form of attack, from Chun-li to Terry Bogard to Liu Kang to Megaman(?!).

(Gouken was the teacher, who finally appeared for the first time in SF4 after apparently being in a coma since before the first game. Gouki was the original Japanese name for Akuma. It gets confusing...but yeah, SF was never big on making sense anyway. ;) )

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
DrowVampyre wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Clearly this is a bastion of neutrality KaeYoss. I can almost hear the beige alerts sounding.

Tell my wife I said, "Hello" *deathrattle*

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Todd Stewart wrote:
The trick is making a big book of good and making it not come across as boring, or offensive to X group, or people harping on the agathions with the f word. :)

Sadly I don't think agathions are going to be able to shake off that internet stigma without ramping up their humanlike aspects in the art. Or perhaps running full tilt in the other direction and making them as inhuman as possible?

Todd Stewart wrote:
But whatever it is, please no 'poison that's not poison because poison is evil and this is holy and it only does horrific pain and agony to evil creatures which makes it good'.

Yeah, ravages were one of those concepts that were just busted right out of the gate. And while I'd love to see something dedicated to aiding the redemption of evil beings, sanctify the wicked had some serious issues in how easily it could be boiled down into simple brainwashing. Had to completely rework what it really did just to take the dirty feeling out of it.

On being boring, breaking a lot of stereotypes a lot of folks have about good and/or celestials could help. Break out the weird, alien, or scary celestials. Don't let non-good have a monopoly on awesome, weird aesthetics(handmaiden devil, I'm looking at you)! I really miss the zoveri and those oil-slick slime people from Planescape for filling that niche.

Sczarni

A true book of good only needs one entry...Halflings...good in any way that you can think of.....

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Book of Exalted Deeds was horrible. In my opinion, evil should have a slight edge in terms of power, otherwise there would be little reason to chose it. That is, if you want good and evil to have any difference instead of just being palette swaps (as BoED did with stuff like ravages).
I'd prefer the equivalent of the Book of the Damned for nonevil outsiders instead of a generic good guy book. A bit more conflict between them certainly would not hurt. Not Blood War level, but working against each other. They seem a bit to uniform otherwise.
As for the agathion look, I liked the Leonal and the Avoral from the Bestiary 2. The Silvanshee is fine, too.


Actually, what would be interesting would be a section of opposite aligned outsiders.

Erynis are fallen Angels, why not have some redeemed devils? Their character and appearance obviously changes with their new alignment, but that would still be cool.

And more ugly looking Good Outsiders would be great too. And by ugly I mean vicious and badass. Having to fight the forces of Evil means not having to worry about your appearance.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:


I hate these filthy Neutrals, Dark_Mistress. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to watch out for.

Nice Jack Sparrow quote.

Not to mention all the Zap Brannigan quotes!


zylphryx wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Khar-Selim wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Indecision? Torn allegiances? Disgust at the debate of law vs chaos / good vs evil? Having read too much philosophy (especially the likes of Hume)?

All I know is my gut says maybe!


Jadeite wrote:


I'd prefer the equivalent of the Book of the Damned for nonevil outsiders instead of a generic good guy book. A bit more conflict between them certainly would not hurt. Not Blood War level, but working against each other. They seem a bit to uniform otherwise.

That's because they're good. They mostly work together. They might have some disagreements, but they probably prefer to work against evil before they work against each other.

Plus, there are the angels. They are good. Any good. They span the ethic alignments. There are LG, NG and CG angels, and they work together with other good-aligned outsiders.


Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Actually, what would be interesting would be a section of opposite aligned outsiders.

Erynis are fallen Angels, why not have some redeemed devils?

Because the Erinyes are classics. The fallen angel theme is right there in the bible.

The risen devil isn't as classic.

There isn't anything much in the books of the damned about general fallen angels - Erinyes don't count, because they're a type of devil in their own right. I seem to remember a bit about fallen angels, but not that much.

I guess they might have a little bit about risen evil outsiders, but not much.

Jeranimus Rex wrote:


And more ugly looking Good Outsiders would be great too.

Nah, it wouldn't. Why would they be ugly? While it isn't true that ugly = evil and pretty = good, pretty usually helps.

Jeranimus Rex wrote:
And by ugly I mean vicious and badass.

That works best as "terrible beauty". I agree they shouldn't look like the cherubs you see in Disney cartoons, but vicious and badass doesn't mean they have to be ugly. I think those PF angels do this right. Look at the Solar. That angel is wearing armour! Not to be confused with the fat little guy also known as cupid.

Or Sunlord Thalachos.


Mikaze wrote:
On being boring, breaking a lot of stereotypes a lot of folks have about good and/or celestials could help. Break out the weird, alien, or scary celestials. Don't let non-good have a monopoly on awesome, weird aesthetics(handmaiden devil, I'm looking at you)! I really miss the zoveri and those oil-slick slime people from Planescape for filling that niche.

[tangent] The character in the profile was 'saved' by a 'clockwork angel' that replaced her damaged heart with one made of metal, that gave her a unique perspective on things (causing her to lose the ability to love, for instance). [/tangent]

I like the idea that celestial beings can be just as alien and cold and terrible as fiendish ones. Angels (or archons) of less nice things like blades or natural disasters, would be traditional and interesting. I've heard good things about Sean Reynold's Anger of Angels, but I haven't read it, so I've no idea if it covers this sort of thing.

Ditto lawful and chaotic outsiders, which have never really gotten a good deal in previous editions (slaad weren't terribly chaotic, for instance, and formians and inevitables didn't seem to get fleshed out with the same sort of attention that modrons got, back in the day).

Between previous editions (official stuff and The Book of Fiends), and the Lords of the Damned series, I feel that demons and devils have gotten a *ton* of development. Celestials aren't terribly common as adversaries, giving them, IMO, less of an immediate use for a book, while lawful and chaotic outsiders could definitely be more strongly presented as both patrons and adversaries for a good-aligned party.

In all cases, more low-CR outsiders, stuff that could be called forth by a Lesser Planar Ally spell (6 HD or less), 'rank-and-file' footsoldiers (or ministers or attendants or heralds or whatever) of heaven (or hell), would be much appreciated. Too many books about outsiders, IMO, focus on demon lords or infernal heirarchs or whatever, and don't include enough low to mid-level content that could find a use in the vast majority of games.

I could use stats for 4 HD fiendish footsoldiers or angelic shock troops, that might show up as part of a summoning spell or ritual, or serve a celestially or infernally 'connected' foe as guards, far more often than I will ever need stats for Pazuzu.

Lower HD inevitables, and proteans, would also be useful, as well as caste types of formian (flying, queen, overseer, messenger, etc) could be cool.


Jadeite wrote:
The Book of Exalted Deeds was horrible.

Lies.

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