What makes high level play unplayable?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

My point is that if you don't really find his post helpful to how to help YOU handle the game, you can simply ignore it. You don't need to jump into attack mode and tell him how he's having badwrongfun. 'Cos if you jump in to disagree with everyone who posts something you disagree with on this forum, you're gonna be pretty damned busy.


Kthulhu wrote:
My point is that if you don't really find his post helpful to how to help YOU handle the game, you can simply ignore it. You don't need to jump into attack mode and tell him how he's having badwrongfun. 'Cos if you jump in to disagree with everyone who posts something you disagree with on this forum, you're gonna be pretty damned busy.

I didn't tell him he was doing it wrong. I said his completely changing the game from level 1 was irrelevant to a thread about what is wrong with high level play - especially since at no point does it address what is wrong with high level play. He was having badwrongposting.


As it appeared to be offered as a "solution" to high level play it becomes a valid target for criticism. Even if it were posted in Houserules it is still an extreme set modifications to the core game. Someone asking for help in that kind of managed game would have a difficult time getting it in the Advice forum here (if they didn't post those house rules first).

It's overkill house rules that don't really bring advice to dealing with high level game play as it exists. It's almost on par with saying "Play E6,7,8,9,10" as a solution to Highlevel play. Changing the game that much does really address anything.

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I removed some posts. Please act like adults.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:


Do we really need to put a "this is how I would do it" before all of our posts when we are discussing a problematic issue?

This is how I would answer that question......


Ross Byers wrote:
I removed some posts. Please act like adults.

Stop doing that! I didn't even get to see them!

Dark Archive

I've started a new thread, asking what would make HLP easier to deal with here.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
While their fort save is high, even their good save doesn't scale as fast as the DC's. particularly with persistent (the one that makes you save twice) thrown into the mix.

Hasn't seemed to work out that way in my campaigns. Not everyone builds around save or die spells. They aren't the most potent spells. You hammer a fighter, he gets healed through it if it doesn't kill him outright.

My players build not only very good damage dealers, but very good healers with quickened buffs and powerful healing set ups.

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My 3.0 wizard specifically got extend spell so he could show up at the fighters house for breakfast every morning, down a stack of pancakes that her sister cooked, and buffed her till she glowed like the sun.

For a savage species campaign I had a kobold sorcerer who walked around in the half dragons livery colors casting magic weapons on everyone's gear.

Half my alchemists extracts go into infusions for the party.

That's good. Parties like getting buffed.

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Most of the preventative spells have a duration in minutes per level, which means unless you know exactly when you're going to come across the fight you have to cast them at the start (when you could just end the fight yourself) You also need to defend against every attack all the time. There are simply too many avenues to attack someone to have a defense against all of them.

Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes a level. So is resist energy.

Reach Spell allows you to buff at range. Quicken Spell allows you to buff casters.

I play mostly spontaneous casters, I find they are better than spellcasters that prepare spells for defense and offense. I can see how a spellcaster that prepares spells would have a harder time buffing and defending.

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I don't see how you can just ignore the wizards spells like that. Which ones is he using?

They ignore them because their saves or SR are so high, the caster isn't getting through that often. That is if he has Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, and the like.

An enemy like Nyrissa in Kingmaker shrugs off spells. As do many of the higher end dragons and outsiders. I give them magic items too you know. People that don't give their powerful BBEGs magic items and spell buffs and the like are really shortchanging their BBEGs and taking the Big Bad out of BBEGs.

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blurr, mirror image, quickened dimensional doors, fog clouds , darkness, expeditious retreat, corners, insane ac's etc. A fighter does one thing and one thing only: attack your armor class with a weapon and subtract your hit points. Thats far easier to defend against than not knowing if you need to worry about aoe spells, targeting spells, fort ref. or will saves, being interdimensionally shunted off etc.

One Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Disjunction, or Quickened Dispel Magic can serve up a fastball over the plate to a fighter if the caster uses such tactics. Maybe you cast a true seeing on the fighter or he gets an item to do it himself.

One round later and wizard boy is usually dead or nearly so. Anyone that goes after like the archer or cleric can finish him off right quick.

High level fighters do more damage than death spells or direct damage spells. As an arcane or divine caster I see no reason not to strip the enemy caster of his defenss and make the fighter or melee type my attack.

That's what group play is all about to me. I'd bet my tactics against the majority of groups playing like a group of individuals against my group playing like a group. If Mr. Wizard wants to hog the glory, then he can have at it. He better not fail, because if he does, I'll have the fighter all over him and he will probably die, especially if it's a two-hander fighter or an archer.

Action economy affects all classes. And a caster only gets a spell or two a round. They can't do everything, especially if the fighter's wizard or cleric friend is also coming down on him with dispels and the like.

I make my enemy groups the same way. So my caster players know to go total offense at their own risk. If they fail, they know what is coming. They know they'll most likely get stripped of their defenses and hammered by Mr. enemy fighter boy. And it's going to hurt them real bad, probably kill them. So they plan accordingly.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
My 3.0 wizard specifically got extend spell so he could show up at the fighters house for breakfast every morning, down a stack of pancakes that her sister cooked, and buffed her till she glowed like the sun.

I don't mean to pick on your grammar, but due to pronoun confusion you've got your wizard "buffing" the fighter's sister till she glows like the sun. Which just sounds dirty.

Carry on.


Gailbraithe wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
My 3.0 wizard specifically got extend spell so he could show up at the fighters house for breakfast every morning, down a stack of pancakes that her sister cooked, and buffed her till she glowed like the sun.

I don't mean to pick on your grammar, but due to pronoun confusion you've got your wizard "buffing" the fighter's sister till she glows like the sun. Which just sounds dirty.

Carry on.

Since the fighter was also female i don't see why it would matter which one of them was getting buffed.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Our level 17 fighter solo'd a CR 21 Titan last game with minimal buffs (heroe's feast). It was very awesome and impressive.

The thing I love about running a high level game is not needing to bother with anything less than 7th level spells anymore.


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Hasn't seemed to work out that way in my campaigns. Not everyone builds around save or die spells. They aren't the most potent spells. You hammer a fighter, he gets healed through it if it doesn't kill him outright.

thats one of the reasons WHY save or dies/save or sucks are prefered at higher level, so that doesn't happen.

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My players build not only very good damage dealers, but very good healers with quickened buffs and powerful healing set ups.

At high level good damage and well played wizard are almost a contradiction in terms. A wizard doesn't DAMAGE. He just rips you from existance.

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Most of the preventative spells have a duration in minutes per level, which means unless you know exactly when you're going to come across the fight you have to cast them at the start (when you could just end the fight yourself) You also need to defend against every attack all the time. There are simply too many avenues to attack someone to have a defense against all of them.

Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes a level. So is resist energy.

Ok, and if you want to be proof against being charmed, shunted off to another dimension, mazed, dominated, blinded, turned into a rainbow lorikeet, given 12 negative levels in a turn, petrified, put in a hamster ball, swallowed whole then how many spells do you need up at once?

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Reach Spell allows you to buff at range. Quicken Spell allows you to buff casters.

Too slow. The idea at high levels is to one shot your foe before they oneshot you.

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I play mostly spontaneous casters, I find they are better than spellcasters that prepare spells for defense and offense. I can see how a spellcaster that prepares spells would have a harder time buffing and defending.

I don't see how this works out at all. The sheer number of possible attacks outweighs the number that a spontaneous caster would know.

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They ignore them because their saves or SR are so high, the caster isn't getting through that often.

Something is wrong there. Either they didn't take the right feats or they're going up against MUCH higher level foes.

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High level fighters do more damage than death spells or direct damage spells. As an arcane or divine caster I see no reason not to strip the enemy caster of his defenss and make the fighter or melee type my attack.

Because its not fast enough? If its your initiative why not end the threat?

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Action economy affects all classes. And a caster only gets a spell or two a round. They can't do everything, especially if the fighter's wizard or cleric friend is also coming down on him with dispels and the like.

Timestop. Summon monster ix summon monster ix summon monster ix

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Too slow. The idea at high levels is to one shot your foe before they oneshot you.

An idea at high levels. Not the idea. You can avoid RTL if you really want to.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
thats one of the reasons WHY save or dies/save or sucks are prefered at higher level, so that doesn't happen.

What does happen then?

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At high level good damage and well played wizard are almost a contradiction in terms. A wizard doesn't DAMAGE. He just rips you from existance.

How? Alot of spells give saves. And mazing someone kind of defeats the purpose of killing them.

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Ok, and if you want to be proof against being charmed, shunted off to another dimension, mazed, dominated, blinded, turned into a rainbow lorikeet, given 12 negative levels in a turn, petrified, put in a hamster ball, swallowed whole then how many spells do you need up at once?

Most grant saves. DCs are rarely high enough to make such tactics easy to carry out. No idea why you think it happens this way so easily. I hear this kind of stuff all the time, yet it has never been that easy in my campaigns.

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Too slow. The idea at high levels is to one shot your foe before they oneshot you.

Nice idea. Not easy to do. No idea why you think you could make it easy to do. I've already told you multiple times that your DCs will not exceed the saves you are up against enough to make it trivial.

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I don't see how this works out at all. The sheer number of possible attacks outweighs the number that a spontaneous caster would know.

Never works out that way. Only need a handful of spells to ruin someone's day. Freedom of Movement makes ineffective multiple attacks as do spells like Holy Aura and Mind Blank.

What do you think you're going to be able to do that I can't counter when I have a few of the ideal defensive spells each level.

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Something is wrong there. Either they didn't take the right feats or they're going up against MUCH higher level foes.

Nothing is wrong here at all. Not sure why you would think that. I design my enemies well.

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Because its not fast enough? If its your initiative why not end the threat?

Because you can't end the threat. You make it sound automatic, but it isn't. Never has been.

I find your assertion that you can somehow do all this stuff without resistance laughable. You would utterly die in campaigns my friends and I run.

If you're expecting some encounter by the module design, you would be sadly disappointed.

You act as though your guaranteed to get first initiative, get off your spell, the other guy fails guaranteed, and you're ok. Doesn't work that way.

What do you think? You would be going against a single BBEG standing there waiting for a party to kill him?

I don't play BBEGs that way. If you show up with a party, they will have a party.

I think you're basing your assumptions off standard module design. If you like to play that way, so be it.

I don't design my encounters that way. For example, there were 9 characters on the PC side. Five players and four henchment.

Guess what? There were 10 enemies. All of them optimized, individually designed characters. Some with PC wealth and some without. All 10 designed to work as a team.

So how are you going to take out easily 10 enemies versus your 9? All of them a mix a casters, healers, melee, and ranged?

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Timestop. Summon monster ix summon monster ix summon monster ix

That combination rarely works out that well. Pretty easy to send summoned monsters packing or obviate them for an organized group. Or rip through them for a fighter-type.

I don't design encounters by the book. That would make the game like you play in where some single stat wizard pumping everything into his prime stat makes the party absolutely useless. How fun is that? Not much.

So I design encounters to challenge parties. There is no way you would walk into one of my campaigns and pull off the "wizard as superman" act. You would get annihilated and have no fun.

Maybe that's a major part of the problem with high level play. DMs adhering to much to the numbers rather than designing according to what is necessary to challenge the PCs and thus not make the fighter or cleric or rogue unnecessary.


Maddigan wrote:


You would utterly die in campaigns my friends and I run.

Jesus but that's some serious arrogance / ****-waving.

Get over yourself.


How? Alot of spells give saves. And mazing someone kind of defeats the purpose of killing them.

Saves and SR do not scale as fast as DC's. As for mazing people, it doesn't defeat the purpose. Its far easier to kill 2 level 15's one after another than to kill them simultaneously.

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Nice idea. Not easy to do. No idea why you think you could make it easy to do. I've already told you multiple times that your DCs will not exceed the saves you are up against enough to make it trivial.

You've asserted that. You haven't demonstrated that. Oddly enough I go with things I've seen and things i can show over something that random person on the internet said, and a random internet person that happens to be in a very small minority on this particular issue. Can you show me what kind of saves your BBGED is using and what the math for how you got them?

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What do you think you're going to be able to do that I can't counter when I have a few of the ideal defensive spells each level.

One shot someone. Takes 10 minutes to fix that.

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Nothing is wrong here at all. Not sure why you would think that. I design my enemies well.

Lets see one.

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I find your assertion that you can somehow do all this stuff without resistance laughable. You would utterly die in campaigns my friends and I run.

Yes yes yes. You are awesome. All hail you.

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If you're expecting some encounter by the module design, you would be sadly disappointed.

Not remotely whats happening here. Try to keep your points on the evidence rather than insults.

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You act as though your guaranteed to get first initiative, get off your spell, the other guy fails guaranteed, and you're ok. Doesn't work that way.

Initiative is an equal problem all around. I said initiative was the GOAL, not a given.

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I don't play BBEGs that way. If you show up with a party, they will have a party.

Ok... and how are they not meet shielding for their spellcasters? A fighter that needs to walk up next to someone is a ton easier to stop than someone who can attack at range through a crowd.

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That combination rarely works out that well. Pretty easy to send summoned monsters packing or obviate them for an organized group. Or rip through them for a fighter-type.

But it buys time for more of the SOD spells to work.

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Maybe that's a major part of the problem with high level play. DMs adhering to much to the numbers rather than designing according to what is necessary to challenge the PCs and thus not make the fighter or cleric or rogue unnecessary.

That quickly becomes an arms race with players. The solution to that is to pump MORE single stat save or dies into the game.

Now please note this is NOT my personal preference. My goal in a fight is to make the DM's go "you're doing what...?" Not wrack up a body count. I think my conjurer was great for this, whether it was standing outside the dragons lair and summoning in an entire swarm of lantern arcons, or buying a type 3 bag of holding to hold a 40 by 40 foot carpet so one of his summoned critters could animate it to grapple things.(he also had an imp regularly staying in his large copper tub)

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Triomega0 An idea at high levels. Not the idea. You can avoid RTL if you really want to.

You CAN... but it has to be some sort of SALT treaty that EVERYONE has to abide by, the dm and all the players, or the dm starts killing people, or the player using the nukes starts outshining everyone. But the person most likely to want to nuke everything is also the one more likely to be playing the arcane caster to take advantage of it.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Too slow. The idea at high levels is to one shot your foe before they oneshot you.

An idea at high levels. Not the idea. You can avoid RTL if you really want to.

Right. And it's only relevant when you're, like, in combat :) Now, if you're talking to the expert 2 commoner who leads a small fishing village, I'd say one-shotting him is not all that crucial.

We like the combats, but it's the non-combat part of high level play that we really enjoy.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
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Nice idea. Not easy to do. No idea why you think you could make it easy to do. I've already told you multiple times that your DCs will not exceed the saves you are up against enough to make it trivial.
You've asserted that. You haven't demonstrated that. Oddly enough I go with things I've seen and things i can show over something that random person on the internet said, and a random internet person that happens to be in a very small minority on this particular issue. Can you show me what kind of saves your BBGED is using and what the math for how you got them?

Now, I'm not talking high, I'm talking epic, but I've thrown things with SR as high as 300+ at the players, and other things with no SR. Likewise for AC, and grapple/CMD, and DR.

No monster is ever crafted specifically to fight the party. Would they be harder if they were? Sure. Will that ever happen? Absolutely - when (not if) they start confronting some of the planar powers, some enemies will be specifically crafted to fight them.

Here's the thing. Saves are either HD/2 + 2 or HD/3, plus any ability modifier. So, I can get whatever save I want by using the appropriate HD, and in the case of Fort saves, making the creature bigger to increase Con. There's no need to prove it, it just is.

I don't worry about the saves. They end up what they end up. Yeah, sometimes spells with a save very rarely work, but sometimes they work just fine, since I'm not min/maxing the monsters.

When the party is tossing something like 3-10 spells/round, it only takes one fail. Very often they'll do some useful stuff and then toss a throwaway as their last spell in the round, just in case they take it down before the fighter does 600hp of damage.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
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What do you think you're going to be able to do that I can't counter when I have a few of the ideal defensive spells each level.
One shot someone. Takes 10 minutes to fix that.

Last combat, I one-shotted two of the PCs. Of course, there were six PCs, so it didn't help much, though it did take them about half an hour to fix with traveling back to the city and the two true resurrections.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
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I don't play BBEGs that way. If you show up with a party, they will have a party.
Ok... and how are they not meat shielding for their spellcasters? A fighter that needs to walk up next to someone is a ton easier to stop than someone who can attack at range through a crowd.

Not always. Stupid dervish prestige class :)

BigNorseWolf wrote:
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Maybe that's a major part of the problem with high level play. DMs adhering to much to the numbers rather than designing according to what is necessary to challenge the PCs and thus not make the fighter or cleric or rogue unnecessary.
That quickly becomes an arms race with players. The solution to that is to pump MORE single stat save or dies into the game.

That's a solution, and only if there's an actual arms race going on. Another solution is to just let the PCs roll over some opponents. Not every encounter has to be a resource-draining day ender. Some are just speed bumps.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Now please note this is NOT my personal preference. My goal in a fight is to make the DM's go "you're doing what...?" Not rack up a body count. I think my conjurer was great for this, whether it was standing outside the dragons lair and summoning in an entire swarm of lantern arcons, or buying a type 3 bag of holding to hold a 40 by 40 foot carpet so one of his summoned critters could animate it to grapple things.(he also had an imp regularly staying in his large copper tub)

Any my goal in the game is to make it enjoyable for everyone. This has very little to do with combat (I've had one player specifically request fewer combats) and a lot more to do with what's actually going on. They want a feeling of accomplishment, and no combat give them that - solving problems gives them that.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
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Triomega0 An idea at high levels. Not the idea. You can avoid RTL if you really want to.
You CAN... but it has to be some sort of SALT treaty that EVERYONE has to abide by, the dm and all the players, or the dm starts killing people, or the player using the nukes starts outshining everyone. But the person most likely to want to nuke everything is also the one more likely to be playing the arcane caster to take advantage of it.

Or it just has to be a bunch of friends looking to enjoy the game, and a GM who's willing to set up challenges that challenge the party, regardless of what their capabilities are.

See, no matter what the PCs' capabilities are, there is always something that is a challenge. The challenge for me is designing such a thing, and the challenge for them is figuring out the problem and solving it.

That was the purpose of the encounter last game. It was under CR by perhaps 20, yet it one-shotted two of the PCs. But it was a success as an encounter, because:

1. Death is no longer anything more than a speed bump typically; it's the TPKs they're scared of.
2. The combat was over quickly in real time, under an hour.
3. By wiping out 5 epic monsters that scared the living bejeezus out of a small fishing clan, they impressed them a great deal and earned their trust, thus gaining them the best treasure of all: information.

Had the combat been harder, like if I'd made several of the creatures spellcasters, the effect would have been largely the same but would have used more party resources and the combat would have taken up more of our evening.

Also, they would have had less time to spend in-game with the villagers and doing things like teleporting in a pallet of lumber and helping them redecorate their caves, leading to a less fulfilling evening for the players, even though they would have gotten to the same exact point gamewise.

The problem I see with high-level play is that many people seem to think high-level play is the same thing as high-level combat.


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The problem I see with high-level play is that many people seem to think high-level play is the same thing as high-level combat.

Because that is what makes high level play high level play. Otherwise it is "who cares what level we are because we aren't going against any level dependent challenges" play.


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Ok having read all of this thread i see that some of you have problems running high level adventures, due to well my players can just over come any thing I put in front of them.

lets start by giving you some easy non- a-hat ways of blocking some of it

First remember for every spell they cast, every potion they drink ,every scroll they use, every charge of a wand is one more they don't have when the other shoe drops on them.

Second do remember INT 12 is average intelligence this means that your BBEG and his minions are not dumb they will react to the players actions

if they are doing the lets leave and recharge our spells drill, have your dungeon prepare for them and I do mean prepare. barricades , extra traps , removal of key items (what your house gets broken into and the guys leave after cleaning out the living room, your going to stay and leave all your most valued goods for them to come back and take ), reinforcements. Example: The party sets up a Magnificent Mansion have your BBEG minions set an ambush right out side the door (the door is detectable with see invisibility

Flying (this seams to be one of the early complaints about "high level" players)
sure they can fly over you swamp you have layed out for them but do remember they are not the only thing that fly on this world and usually the players are a lot clumsier than the things that are in their natural arena

also both fly and overland flight are SINGLE person spells that means one spell slot per casting (and overland only affects the caster)

Telport and greater telport (i see a lot of you hate this spell)

first of is your BBEG a caster then you can bet most areas that the players would port to are going to be either guarded or warded (even if its just an alarm spell) , example players telport into BBEG guys storage room (its out way and not a lot of minions go into it) our BBEG has put a contingency spell on it that if the password is not said in say 2 rounds of entering the room it goes off (how nasty the spell going off is up to you)

as for escaping with it rember everyone must be touching as a BBEG I would be thinking OW PLEASE cluster up.

Third and this one is big one , your players are now in the BIG Leagues .iE the risk is big so is the rewards, players will die some of them very messily, but those of you who are afraid of killing your players should not be, yes it happens but some of the best stories are not how they kicked the BBEG tail but how they tried and failed


drashal wrote:
.... example players telport into BBEG guys storage room (its out way and not a lot of minions go into it) our BBEG has put a contingency spell on it that if the password is not said in say 2 rounds of entering the room it goes off (how nasty the...

This remionds me of all those (usually older) modules that have sigificantly deadly traps on the doors and such of living areas where the inhabitants would encounter them on a regular basis. Are you really going to put a trap that could kill you in such a location...I sure wouldn't. An alarm or lock, sure. A nasty contingency spell, not so much. So the BBEG walks into his storeroom and suddenly remembers the trap..."Wait, what was that code w...>BOOM<...ord. Ouch."

Now don't get me wrong, I agree with the general premise that smart BBEGs will be prepared for teleporting and such. But some preparations go too far. While strip searching EVERYONE who boards EVERY plane is possible, it's not feasible for so many reasons. While the villians could do xyz, is it economically/etc... feasible?

As for me, the thing I find that makes High level play a pain; record keeping. What buffs you have up, what magic items are active, what..., what...blah, blah blah. It gets tedious. But if you don't - your character will most likely die.


Big Norse Wolf,

Instead of arguing, I'll give you an example.

The set up was War of the River Kings. I'm running this at higher levels than normal.

5 17s and 4 15s versus

The enemies:

Irovetti: Changed him to bard (arcane duelist)lvl 20 bard/lvl 2 fighter. Built his tactics around Bard's Escape and giving his allies actions with heroic finale so he could move his army right on top of people quickly past Wall of Force and the like. He had mind blank and greater invisibility and was using project image as well.

Sifra: lvl 17 Abjuration (counterspell) specialist to shut down spells at key times and get rid of summoned creatures. She also shut down invisibility purge. I gave her Preferred Spell Dispel Magic and Spell Specialization Dispel Magic to ensure she had ample dispels to counter and strip with. She had Greater Arcane Sight up for determining the best targets to strip.

Avinash Juurg: lvl 12 Ogre mage Samurai. Pretty nice class. To bring the pain against the fighters.

Villamor Koth: lvl 16 Invulnerable Raging (human) barbarian with superstition with human bonus and Come and Get Me.

Voki: Lvl 4 Sorcerer/Rogue lvl 3/lvlArcane Trickster 10 ray specialist.

Gaetane: Wererat ranger (archer) 12.

Human Archer: Human archer lvl 15 designed around bull rush tactics.

Cleric of Calistria: With Charm and Luck domain lvl 17

Adriana: Lvl 8 ftr/lvl 10 duellist. Disarm specialist. Didn't get involved in fight for roleplay reasons.

Alasen: Weretiger rogue 14

4 troll fighters 5: Cannon fodder for positioning and something for the PC melees to beat on.

Party moving through city to take on the king. They can't scry on him because he is sealed off from scrying with Mind Blank and Mage's Sanctum.

So they are moving through the city because they don't want to port into the castle and find it empty or walk into an ambush. The enemy is actively scrying against them so they have to use spell slots to deal with that. Scry and Fry works two ways. I don't have enemies sitting there waiting to be ambushed and die. I have them actively working against the PCs with their own set of resources including scry and fry if necessary or doing like you do and summoning up a small army.

Now my players made a mistake and didn't cast true seeing, so they got ambushed by the illusion. Which wasn't good.

I'm not going to go into every little tactic, but I'll toss out a few:

1. The enemies were fully buffed. Life Bubble, Death ward on key characters, Freedom of Movement, Fickle Winds, Protection from Spells, Mind Blank, Resist Energy,Mass Fly, Telepathic Bond and the like.

2. Bard moved the party onto enemies. He had True Seeing up and could see the invisible targets.

3. Counterspell specialist was invisible and mind blanked. Her job was to block key spells such as heals, dispels, or devastating death or hold spells.

4. Enemies coordinated tactics with delay and ready actions.

5. All coordination was set up around Greater Dispel Magic and the single Mage's Disjunction I gave the abjuration specialist. She stripped the party of their buffs and the bard delayed, then moved the damage dealers onto the enemy party who were also delaying, then proceeded to lay down pain. The archers were especially happy when the party's fickle winds dropped.

There are so many tactics for a DM to use. That's why you don't see me complaining on these boards save about certain spells which grant no save. DCs can get high, but if you buff or build an enemy in a way where the PC isn't aware of what their resistant to, they can end up wasting spells and actions.

Certain things I have no trouble doing:

1. You go after a dragon in his lair. You are an unknown quantity. You attempt to ambush. He will Greater Teleport out or fly away without even engaging. Then start tracking you until he can set you up. I'm not going to have him sit there while your summons and such gang up on him. I don't work that way as a DM. I consider that playing a monster foolish.

Quicken Dispel magic freedom of movement followed by snatch is very effective.

2. An enemy BBEG like a king or wizard is going to get his own party to deal with yours. He is going to set you up and scry and fry you as often as you do him. He is going to have countermeasures just like you.

3. There is no 15 minute adventuring day. You go after a big dog, the big dog is coming after you. You may find his 15 lantern archons and grappling carpet waitiing outside your door. He pop in while you're having dinner. His assassin may hit you while your walking the streets. These are all tactics I use.

4. BBEGs use their magic items. They don't leave them sitting on their treasure trove waiting to die so adventurer's can pick them up. And they don't gather what the module designer rolled. They gather magic items they can use and that help them become more powerful like the players.

5. I optimize the enemies. I don't use what the module designer thought was cool. I optimize each enemy including monsters with feats I know players would take. I even roll their stats using the same stat method the players use.

These are a handful of things I do to challenge my PCs. I don't understand why you think you can circumvent them easily.

I was completely ready for those tactics you pulled. If you had showed up fully prepared against the party I designed, one Mage's Disjunction strips your buffs and the a great many of your summoned minions as well as your grappling carpet.

Your tactics don't sound very hard to defeat. It sounds to me like you were playing with a DM that ran the encounter as it was written in a module or as a straightforward encounter where the dragon engaged you and you got to unload on him while he fought straight up.

I don't play my dragons that way. I don't play my major demons that way. Or really any of BBEGs much that way at high level.

At high level my BBEGs are actively working against you. They are researching every tactic you use. They are using speak with dead to find out how their henchmen and underlings die. They are planning scry and fry assaults on you. If you don't spend rosources to counter it, you're in trouble. They are recruiting NPC enemies to fight you specifically. They are building magic items and picking feats to maximize their power. They are powerful and prepared for dealing with adventurers. They may even spend resources to ressurect one of your old enemies to use against you.

This is how I play. It's how I've played for a long time now. I guess I sympathize with newcomers to the game as they probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing what I do to challenge players or maybe don't want to put the time in. But my DM philosophy is if the player's don't earn it, how can they feel all that good about their characters?

Maybe the majority see things the way they do because they:

1. Have a preference for smaller scale games like you would find in Lord of the Rings or the like.

2. Run exact modules or monsters without at all thinking about how such ancient and powerful beings would see warfare.

You can't use stock BBEGs designed using the core rulebook while the players are pouring over every rule and using whatever means they can to maximize the power of their character with every book and supplement the DM allows. That's the path to a game where wizards are as you seem to think they are: invincible gods that destroy everything they meet and obviate other classes.

Of course wizards can do this when you give them access to three or more books of spells and plenty of time to prepare.

But give the enemy the same and make him proactive, suddenly wizards are whining "Mr. Fighter, can you go in first so that guy doesn't unload on me? I'll die in one round if he gets to me."

Because of this attitude I have as a DM, I don't experience the same types of things you do. Like I said, you would die with those tactics in my campaigns. You would have no choice but to use your fighters, your rogues, and your clerics effectively because of the way I run the game.

You would be just as frightened of entering the domain of the enemy as you imagine the enemy is of you. You wouldn't know what they were going to do or when they were going to do it or what their spell set up was or their tactics.

I even imagine a player like you being surprised when someone plans an ambush for the first guy to leave the rope trick or an enemy follows you throughout the dungeon or even when you teleport looking to finish you off rather than waiting in his room for you to come back. There is no waiting. You are that BBEGs enemy. He wants to kill you. He has access to the same stuff you do, sometimes even more.

That's how I see it as a DM. That's how I design encounters whether the main BBEG is a dragon, a humanoid, or a demon.

It's probably why spontaneous casters flourish in my group's campaigns over prepared casters. Preparation is very difficult when you don't know what your enemy is going to do, when he is going to attack you, who is with him, or what items he has. I always try to keep it that way. Otherwise it makes for a boring and trival high level game.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Maddigan wrote:


You would utterly die in campaigns my friends and I run.

Jesus but that's some serious arrogance / ****-waving.

Get over yourself.

Love how you take a single quote and make it seem like the point of the post. I guess Big Norse Wolf's assertions that wizards one shot everything and fighters useless isn't arrogance? Is that it? I disagree.

I find Big Norse Wolf's assertions about fighters arrogant and ludicrous. And not at all the game as I have experienced it.

Big Norse Wolf spelled out how he sees the game. I know from my own experience it doesn't work that way or I should say doesn't have to work that way. I've killed a ton of casters who attempted to play the "one shot" Save or Die or Save or Suck method.

It is the way I design encounters. To show up, attempt to unleash a "one shot" barrage, thus pulling all aggro onto yourself, is the way to die in the campaigns I run.

My players know this. So they don't do it too often. I imagine Big Norse Wolf if he played in my games would probably adapt his tactics accordingly. But the tactics as he states them would get him killed in the campaigns my friends and I run.

I see no need to continue this conversation. I know what troubles my campaigns at high levels. It isn't the same things as trouble other people's.

I'm a 20 year plus DM with a strong grasp of the game. I find it very easy to keep wizards in line. I find it very easy to make fighters feel like they are strongly participating in the game.

I don't think of my job as DM is to blindly follow the rules like a computer. My job as DM is to use my reason and experience to design encounters to challenge my group even if that means not following the rules aka guidelines exactly.

Paizo game designers do not know my group as well as I do. There is no way they can design monsters, modules, and the like to challenge the numerous different group types and tactics available to players. So it is up to the DM to ensure that encounters are designed to play to the strengths and weaknesses of their players and not let the rules allow one class to overshadow all others. I take this idea to heart.


Maddigan wrote:

Big Norse Wolf,

Instead of arguing, I'll give you an example.

Your example has everything but the requested information. I asked for their saves. All you've demonstrated so far is that a party is in trouble when they're ambushed. That's true at any level.


Maddigan wrote:

I don't think of my job as DM is to blindly follow the rules like a computer. My job as DM is to use my reason and experience to design encounters to challenge my group even if that means not following the rules aka guidelines exactly.

See, here's my issue.

You're basically saying, "The rules as written don't work, so I make up different ones that do." I agree with that; I've done the same thing (and shared the voluminous house rules with the players, in advance, and passed them by vote). But it doesn't help everyone who is still laboring under the impression that the game they paid $50 for can be played out of the box.


Maddigan wrote:
Love how you take a single quote and make it seem like the point of the post. I guess Big Norse Wolf's assertions that wizards one shot everything and fighters useless isn't arrogance?

Arrogant to some degree? Sure. Not nearly on the scale of what you were saying, no. You couldn't have gone much farther without pulling down your pants and demanding to demonstrate that your **** was bigger.

Frankly, the DM can always win an arms' race with the players if he's of a mind to, and that you can make the game work by tossing the rules doesn't mean the rules actually work, any more than Mike Tyson being able to beat me in a game of chess if he won't stop punching me in the head any time I try to make a move means he's actually the better chess player. How much of what you're doing to make the game works is pretty reasonable and how much is chessboxing is basically impossible to fairly tell from where we sit -- we only have your word to take for it, and since you're asserting that everything works great and any DM it doesn't work great for is inferior, you don't have a ton of credibility.

So, great that it all done your way works for you and, presumably, works for your players. What that means for anyone elses game? Not much.


Quote:
Love how you take a single quote and make it seem like the point of the post.

I'm not making the point of the post. What i'm saying is that in order to test your statement that the saves for the encounters are too high to make SOD/SOS viable I need to know what their saves are. The information you provided, while volumous and enlightening on other matters, doesn't help answer that central question. The point of my post wasn't supposed to be "ha ha! i win"! its supposed to be "i require more information to proceed"

Quote:
I guess Big Norse Wolf's assertions that wizards one shot everything and fighters useless isn't arrogance?

It absolutely is not arrogance. I did not design the wizard class. I didn't make the game. What the rules allow the wizard to do is not something i can in any way shape or form take credit or blame for. My personal abilities and preference don't enter into it in any way shape, or form. Most of the builds for high save DC are about as unimaginative as you can get.

Now, imagine instead of your individually crafted band of motley, memorable and interesting villains , you simply boiler plated a number of individuals with cranked out SOD/SOS saves and got the same drop on your party. What would happen?

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