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So Ive run a couple of games of Kingmaker and have just about finished Stolen Lands. Here are some of my thoughts, and I would love to hear from others who have run, read it.
1. I found the encounters very bland. For the most part I've had to alter many of them to add spice. For example there is a part where the PCs encounter 4 passed out Kobolds. I gave them a few traps and ended up holding off the party for several rounds.
2. I love that the AP has a lot of background detail for the NPCs. As such I was able to integrate them into the adventure in pretty interesting ways. For example from one of the early bandit encounters, Knapps, has become a regular scout for the party.
3. I find the Stag Lord to be kinda boring. He needs some spice and ways raise the menace of him as a BBEG. I spooked the party by having them spot a large ghostly looking stag from time to time, dropping hints about terrible stuff he's done, and giving the PCs a chance to interrogate captured bandits about them and conveying a sense of him uber evilness. I may give him some magical abilities in the big fight, perhaps as gifts from the end boss Nyrissa.
4. I really had to read and re-read then map out the line of information of this module. In other words, if you meet encounter A, he'll tell you about B, C and D. That got tough by just referring to the module itself. As such I had to create a basic information tree for easy reference on the who-know-whats and where quest items are.
5. Also had trouble getting my party back to Oleg's. They wanted to stay out exploring/killing the entire time. So I implemented a house rule that if brought to negative hit points they had a lingering debilitation (-2 speed as example) that would require a small bit of recovery time. That worked to bring them back and even created a sense of time advancement and allowed for more RP situations that might not have otherwise been there in the constant grind.
Sorry if that went on a bit of a ramble.
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#1 - I agree about the encounters. I figured out how I wanted the party to perceive the wilderness area and then added in encounters that played in that direction. For instance, they saw lots of elk herds meandering about, fairly often ran into wolves in the forested areas, and had more than a few bandit encounters. All of these were fairly incidental, with not much combat, mostly just painting a picture for the party.
I also had several tables I made up. Every time the party entered a hex, I rolled chances for wandering monsters, night sounds,and tracks.
This way the party could hear things or see evidence of them without actually encountering them. For instance
#5 - I was pretty ruthless with my party on starting gold, giving nobles (all are heavy armor melee classes) 40gp, chainmail, and 1 melee weapon. Anything else they had to buy. The commoners got 25gp, studded leather, and 1 weapon. I think 2 players started with mounts.
So as they started exploring and coming across gold, they were constantly going back to Olegs to buy food, upgrade armor, weapons, and ammunition, purchase more sophisticated adventuring gear, purchase combat trained mounts, etc. Since their orders took a week to arrive at Olegs from Brevoy, they would explore for a week, then go back to Olegs and rest a day or two, making potions, scrolls, getting their new gear, and ordering more before returning to the wild. I also counted everything from torches, rations, and bolts, to ruined tents from night attacks. Most of the wild animals or monsters tended to target the horses when the party was camped, so mount attrition also factored in.
Of course I also had them nervous that Oleg's was going to be hit by a big Staglord retaliation of killing off Happs, so they didnt want to venture out too long, even after Kesten and his men arrived.
My biggest complaint about this whole AP is the fact that it completely sidestepped the opportunity to involve the party in Brevic or Mivon politics. If your party has nobles from Brevoy, there should be obligations, duties, issues, inter family squabbles, conspiracies, smear campaigns by jealous siblings, something. Mivon is a heck of a lot closer than Pitax, and the most obvious kingdom to have negotiations with the players' emerging kingdom. Even a few paragraphs addressing the option or suggestions to include it would have been nice. Perhaps I am just a realism obsessed GM, but it seems to be rather naive to assume that this new kingdom would emerge in a vacuum and everyone other than Pitax would leave them alone and non get involved in some fashion.
Brevan politics relatively quickly degenerates to a point where Restov cuts the umbilical fairly early on (as hinted at in the beginning of Chapter 3).
Mivon is a semi-anrchic cesspit as memory serves. For that matter, most of the River Kingdoms are either struggling to survive or are too busy with inner squabbling to pay much attention to the PCs' kingdom until it's too late to do anything about it without a war.
Here are a few ideas:
1.) Daggermark hosts a regular "meeting of kings". They usually don't waste the time to sned envoys through the boonies to the scrubs, they invite the rulers that demonstrate the strength and resolve to maintain a sizeable enough realm. I plan this event for my group on the fifth year after they attained "kingdom" stature.
2.) You could pre-generate several years' kingdom events in advance. Many of them provide handy means to insert additional elements that you find desirable. Envoys from the other river kingdoms, famous/notorious persons passing through and spending money, catching a spy, assassination attempts competent and otherwise, etc.
3.) Many groups will milk the magic item economic engine for all it's worth. I highly recommend if at all possible that you make 2 or 3 "practice kingdoms" on your own to get a firm grasp of the kingdom building rules. Then have them build armies and attempt to wipe the other one out to get a solid grasp of the mass combat rules. Make any house rules you deem necessary to adapt the campaign to suit your specific tastes.
4.) Trickle in bits of news from around the world as game time progresses. Perhaps you have run other campaigns in the past with results that crop up "in the news" via bards and other adventurers. Say, for example, bits and pieces of "public knowledge" from previously run adventure paths...
So Ive run a couple of games of Kingmaker and have just about finished Stolen Lands. Here are some of my thoughts, and I would love to hear from others who have run, read it.
1. I found the encounters very bland. For the most part I've had to alter many of them to add spice. For example there is a part where the PCs encounter 4 passed out Kobolds. I gave them a few traps and ended up holding off the party for several rounds.
2. I love that the AP has a lot of background detail for the NPCs. As such I was able to integrate them into the adventure in pretty interesting ways. For example from one of the early bandit encounters, Knapps, has become a regular scout for the party.
3. I find the Stag Lord to be kinda boring. He needs some spice and ways raise the menace of him as a BBEG. I spooked the party by having them spot a large ghostly looking stag from time to time, dropping hints about terrible stuff he's done, and giving the PCs a chance to interrogate captured bandits about them and conveying a sense of him uber evilness. I may give him some magical abilities in the big fight, perhaps as gifts from the end boss Nyrissa.
4. I really had to read and re-read then map out the line of information of this module. In other words, if you meet encounter A, he'll tell you about B, C and D. That got tough by just referring to the module itself. As such I had to create a basic information tree for easy reference on the who-know-whats and where quest items are.
5. Also had trouble getting my party back to Oleg's. They wanted to stay out exploring/killing the entire time. So I implemented a house rule that if brought to negative hit points they had a lingering debilitation (-2 speed as example) that would require a small bit of recovery time. That worked to bring them back and even created a sense of time advancement and allowed for more RP situations that might not have otherwise been there in the constant grind.
Sorry if that went on a bit of a ramble.
Just a few thoughts for you, keyed to your observations:
1) I agree that the encounters are at times a bit bland and/or unchallenging. This is balanced by the fact that occasionally they have an encounter (like a troll at 1st level) that can kill them all if they engage. I believe the kobold encounter, as one of the first in the game, is designed to be pretty easy. To make encounters less bland incorporate a lot of weather and terrain effects. I know being ambushed while crossing a river or fighting a pack of wolves in knee deep snow presents some different challenges and makes for excitign fights.
3) I'm surprised you find the Stag Lord bland. I found the entire cast of characters at the fort to be very engaging and my group had a blast with them. Staggy is also extremely deadly with his bow, and was in general one of the most memorable low-level BBEGs I've ever encountered.
5) I wouldn't worry about trying to get them back to Oleg's. This is a sandbox-style adventure and they can do it any way they like to, and if that means more time in the field and less back at Oleg's that's their choice. Just make sure to enforce the consequences of that choice. As others have noted, there are thingas like selling loot, needing to buy supplies, etc. that should naturally bring them back periodically. If they figure out a way around that and don't want to return, that's their prerogative.
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Thanks for the advice and notes guys. Its great to have these forums to exchange thoughts and ideas off.
You make a good point there Brian. It is a sandbox and I shouldnt press them on going back to Oleg's if they dont want to. Several of you guys noted the selling of goods and I am bad at keeping track/enforcing encumberance issues on the party.
I think the biggest challenge Im going to have with the future of this campaign is the kingdom building mechanics. My group if definately a bunch of Roll-Players. They love the combat and only really deal with the RP when they have to. This is probably why they prefer to kill/explore rather than return to Olegs for buying, selling and NPC interacting.
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I think the biggest challenge Im going to have with the future of this campaign is the kingdom building mechanics. My group if definately a bunch of Roll-Players. They love the combat and only really deal with the RP when they have to. This is probably why they prefer to kill/explore rather than return to Olegs for buying, selling and NPC interacting.
If this is the case, you might wish to consider the kingdom-in-the-background aspect. While there is a good deal of rolling with kingdom building, there isn't much combat and it can slow down the overall speed of the day (at least for a little while). Just a thought. :)
Being a player that's already run through the first adventure in the AP, I know we were constantly heading back to Oleg's during our first portion of the adventure. Ammunition and rations were the two main things, along with cashing in treasure. In later chapters it was often to obtain a new mount for someone...
As a GM, I tend to take notes whenever a party grabs a lot of loot in an adventure without a place to dispose of it right on hand. When they're taking stuff, Oleg's crate of furs, for example, I'll ask: "Okay, how are you transporting it?" If they have pack animals, not so much of a problem. If they're on foot, someone has to lug that thing around. That means that when combat ensues, you've got someone without their shield bonus or weapon in hand until they drop the crate, draw a weapon and ready their shield. Encumbrance can also make a difference in combats where movement is vital.
We found it convient to go back to Olegs at the end of every session. That way if someone couldn't make it to the next session, their character gets left behind at Olegs doing character stuff. It also let us sell loot and but stuff.
3. I find the Stag Lord to be kinda boring. He needs some spice and ways raise the menace of him as a BBEG.
About the bland encounters. While I like spicy encounters, a steady diet of spice can get old. When everything is spicy...nothing is spicy, or something like that. You need the bland encounters to make the spicy ones spicy. Otherwise you get into a spice race with yourself. You have to start adding more and more to get the same kick, and before you know it, you've jumped the shark. Am I making sense? It seemded to make sense in my head...
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Being a player that's already run through the first adventure in the AP, I know we were constantly heading back to Oleg's during our first portion of the adventure. Ammunition and rations were the two main things, along with cashing in treasure. In later chapters it was often to obtain a new mount for someone...
I agree. We made for Oleg's quite often as well. We never spent more then a week out at first. Of course, our DM added a lot of his own to the game and If we were out longer, Oleg's was endanger of being destroyed. At one point, anecromancer sent some zombies, skeletons, and some bandits(he had made a deal with the Stag Lord) to attack Oleg's. We had to stay and help defend it.
It got a little old, but it did help our characters relate to Oleg and Svetlana and ot us some much needed exp beofre venturing too fat into the man killing fields known as the Stolen Lands.
I may give him some magical abilities in the big fight, perhaps as gifts from the end boss Nyrissa.
Be very, very careful with this one. The Stag Lord kills all kinds of PCs pretty easily with his abilities. Check out the PC obituaries thread.