metamagic rods ruling

[Sylentenigma]

From the way i am reading this metamagic rods only give you access to the feat a certain number of times per day you still take the level and cast time increase. Am i correct in this?

[Robert Young]

Sylentenigma wrote:

From the way i am reading this metamagic rods only give you access to the feat a certain number of times per day you still take the level and cast time increase. Am i correct in this?

Nope. There is no level increase associated with a metamagic rod, and the casting time increase only applies to the Sorcerer (not sure about other spontaneous caster types in this regard, however).

[David Thomassen]

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

So no for Spell Level increase, Yes for time change

[leo1925]

What the others said.
Also IMO i think that the spontaneous caster thing is kinda stupid, anyone remembers if this was the case with 3.5? (so that i can blame WotC for that)

[concerro]

leo1925 wrote:

What the others said.

Also IMO i think that the spontaneous caster thing is kinda stupid, anyone remembers if this was the case with 3.5? (so that i can blame WotC for that)

It is in 3.5 also.

[leo1925]

concerro wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

What the others said.

Also IMO i think that the spontaneous caster thing is kinda stupid, anyone remembers if this was the case with 3.5? (so that i can blame WotC for that)

It is in 3.5 also.

Thank you.

[Thazar]

Keep in mind that a full round casting is NOT the same as a 1 round casting. When casting a full round action spell you can move 5' on your turn if you want and cast the spell. It goes off before anyone else gets to go unless they use an Immediate Action, Readied Action, or if you provide an AoO.

A full round casting is not different time wise then a fighter making a full attack.

[leo1925]

Thazar wrote:

Keep in mind that a full round casting is NOT the same as a 1 round casting. When casting a full round action spell you can move 5' on your turn if you want and cast the spell. It goes off before anyone else gets to go unless they use an Immediate Action, Readied Action, or if you provide an AoO.

A full round casting is not different time wise then a fighter making a full attack.

Yes i know, i just feel that sorcerers don't need another hindirance, they have enough already.

[Gorusk]

I would really like to know why this time increase only applies to sorcerers?
It really makes no sense.
Would it then apply to Bards?
What about Oracles?
What about Clerics casting spontaneous cure/harm spells?
When the Arcanist class is actually released, will it apply to them as well?

I see no reason why it should happen at all.
Did someone feel that Wizards, Clerics, Druids, et al. needed some love, or that Sorcerers needed some hate?

Does anyone house-rule this?

Thanks,

[Rylar]

I ignore the increased casting times in my home games. It's really just an extra thing to keep track of that doesn't really change gameplay enough to justify it.

[Gorusk]

Okay, good.

Anyone else house rule this?

I run a game for my group, and I'd seriously like to change this rule as there does not seem to be any real purpose for it. In fact, it seems to be at odds with the idea of the spirit of the magic item. I mean, the magic item effectively changes a spell so that it is as though the feat had been associated with that spell.

I've also considered applying the increased casting time to everyone. I mean, if the rod impacted all spellcasters, as effectively EVERYONE would be 'sponatneously' adding the feat to a spell that had not been prepped with the effect.

I just feel that it makes no sense that a Wizard and a Sorcerer casting the same spell, the same way, should have different casting times when applying the benefit of a lesser empowered metamagic rod.

I wanted to see if anyone had a justification for why the rule is the way it is.

If I can get a good reason, we'll keep the rule as written because I (and our group as a whole) like to keep the flavor of the game rules as is (as much as possible).

(Ninja'd)

[ThunderMan]

Honestly, there isn't any good reason. Same reason why the material cost is negated so easily. It's all flavor.

[seebs]

It doesn't "only apply to sorcerers". It applies to all spontaneous casters, and it's there ... not entirely sure why. I think the original rationale was that without that, metamagic was a little too much better for sorcerers than it was for wizards. Metamagic rods didn't exist at that point, and when they were introduced, the question came up of "so what about the casting time?"

Me, I'd be inclined to change it, but... Eh.

[LazarX]

Gorusk wrote:

I would really like to know why this time increase only applies to sorcerers?

It really makes no sense.
Would it then apply to Bards?
What about Oracles?
What about Clerics casting spontaneous cure/harm spells?

In order.

1.It offsets the advantage that spontaneous casters have in casting flexibility. Prepared casters have to prepare spells IN ADVANCE with metamagic feats. Sorcerers get to tinker wither on the fly in exchange for a bit of extra casting time.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. No. However it's generally a better deal to use the higher level cure/inflict spells instead of empowering them.

[Lifat]

@LazarX... I think you are dead on when it comes to the reason behind the increased casting time. I think that is exactly why it was introduced. I just don't agree that it is either flavor-wise sound or balanced either. The spontaneous casters all get access a level later than the prepared class(es).

[LazarX]

Lifat wrote:

@LazarX... I think you are dead on when it comes to the reason behind the increased casting time. I think that is exactly why it was introduced. I just don't agree that it is either flavor-wise sound or balanced either. The spontaneous casters all get access a level later than the prepared class(es).

Sorcerers have casting flexibility even without metamagic that wizards dream of. and quite frankly so what? When they get third level spells at 6th level, they're casting more of them than thier wizard friends.

[Midnight_Angel]

LazarX wrote:

Sorcerers have casting flexibility even without metamagic that wizards dream of. and quite frankly so what? When they get third level spells at 6th level, they're casting more of them than thier wizard friends.

Erm... since the majority of these 'wizard friends' tend to be specialists, the difference in numbers is not quite as pronounced as you'd think.

Sorc 6: 3 base slots for Level 3 spells. Of which he knows one.
Specialist Wiz 6: 2+1 base slots for Level 3 spells. Of which he knows at least four.

Now, where exactly is the sorcerer's flexibility the wizard can only dream of?

(Note: Due to getting his Bloodline spells a level after coming into new power, the sorcerer has the honor to be the only spontaneous class that starts every new spell level with a single spell known. Flexible, indeed.)

Plus, while I understand the casting time increase for applying metamagic on-the-fly (which is part of the Sorc's flexibility), I fail to comprehend what kind of flexibility must be offset when it comes to metamagic rods.

[Gorusk]

Wait, I want to be clear here.
I'm not asking why metamagic feats add time for sorcerers.
That I agree with.
There's a good reason for it.
What I'm asking, is why a metamagic ROD would add time ONLY to sorcerers in rules as written.
It doesn't even make sense in rules as intended.

[LazarX]

Gorusk wrote:

Wait, I want to be clear here.

I'm not asking why metamagic feats add time for sorcerers.
That I agree with.
There's a good reason for it.
What I'm asking, is why a metamagic ROD would add time ONLY to sorcerers in rules as written.
It doesn't even make sense in rules as intended.

Because the Rods are supposed to act just like the feats do, not trump them. A sorcerer who bought a feat with cash or murder, should not cast better than a sorcerer who actually took the trouble to learn the feat.

[LazarX]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Sorcerers have casting flexibility even without metamagic that wizards dream of. and quite frankly so what? When they get third level spells at 6th level, they're casting more of them than thier wizard friends.

Erm... since the majority of these 'wizard friends' tend to be specialists, the difference in numbers is not quite as pronounced as you'd think.

Sorc 6: 3 base slots for Level 3 spells. Of which he knows one.
Specialist Wiz 6: 2+1 base slots for Level 3 spells. Of which he knows at least four.

Now, where exactly is the sorcerer's flexibility the wizard can only dream of?

The sorcerer can choose whether to use those third level spots for his third level spell, or his second level spell or lower level spells with metamagic applied. The Wizard still has to make all those choices IN ADVANCE.

[seebs]

Gorusk wrote:

Wait, I want to be clear here.

I'm not asking why metamagic feats add time for sorcerers.
That I agree with.
There's a good reason for it.
What I'm asking, is why a metamagic ROD would add time ONLY to sorcerers in rules as written.
It doesn't even make sense in rules as intended.

I don't know why they didn't mention bards. They didn't mention oracles because none yet existed when the metamagic rod text was first written.

... So, I got curious, and checked 3.5E.

"For casters such as bards or sorcerers who do not prepare spells, the rod’s energy can be used to cast any spell of the appropriate level or levels that they know."

So Pathfinder changed this. And that makes it seem like they are intentionally targeting sorcerers specifically.

[Cuttler]

That doesn't answer his question.

Gorusk, you are asking the intend behind the rule, and that no one can provide the answer but the developers...

My interpretation is that normally a spontaneous caster takes more time to cast metamagic spells (p. 113 of the CRB)...actually the CRB mentioned the Bard and sorcerer, but rememeber that these were the only spontaneous classes in the CRB. The intend is probably that all spontaneous caster take more time to cast metamagic spells.

As for the ROd, well 2 possibilities:

1)they probably used sorcerer in reference to that paragraph in metamagic section...They probably meant all spontaneous casters...

2)they really meant only sorcerer for obscure reason that they felt it was a powerful class

Personnaly, I think 1 is right, but take your pick....

[Gorusk]

Alright.

So, one last time.

* Metamagic feat rules are fine. Spontaneous casters take more time adding them to spells, feat wise. That makes sense. This balances out things so that prep spell casters aren't unduly penalized because they had to prep the feat with their spell ahead of time.

* Metamagic Rod rules are not fine. In rules as written, there is a penalty to the casting time applied only to Sorcerers. Even if it was intended to apply to all spontaneous casters, it makes no sense that this penalty to time should be included for the rod, as there's no balancing penalty for prep spellcasters. There certainly wasn't a need to use the rod to prep there spells. The Rod simply allows a caster to apply the benefits of the feat on the fly whether they be Sorcerer or Wizard or anything else. I.E. A wizard and a Sorcerer both have the same type of metamagic rods they just found and want to enhance the same type of spell with it. It shouldn't take less time for the wizard (who certainly didn't prep a spell to use a rod he just found) to cast the augmented spell than it would the sorcerer.

This discussion, and the one I had with my group keep getting bogged down in discussions of the feats. I don't know why, as the discussion of the application of the rod and the application of the feat are two different things.

Anyway, I've pretty much decided to allow the Spontaneous casters using a mm rod to use it without a penalty to casting time. As long as everyone gets the same result from the magical rod, it seems fair.

[blahpers]

Gorusk wrote:

as there's no balancing penalty for prep spellcasters.

You have to ignore the context of prepared versus spontaneous spellcasting to believe this.

Metamagic rods duplicate metamagic feats without increasing the spell slot. That's balanced across the board. The rods do not penalize sorcerers--metamagic feats in general do. The reason for that is a matter of balancing alternate casting methods and is outside the scope of this discussion. If the rods allowed bypassing the usual time increase for sorcerers, that would be a boon to sorcerers without any corresponding boon to wizards.

[Gorusk]

I completely disagree. Otherwise Prep spellcasters should have to prepare spells they intend to use the metamagic rod with that day.

[wraithstrike]

Magic items almost always work the same for everyone. The rods are no different. The penalty is coming from the feats, not the rods. Yeah, the rods are better for prepared casters, but that is because of the limitation imposed by the feats. The rods take away a larger penalty for for prepared casters, but they do not take away the casting time penalty for spontaneous casters.

I don't think the casting time penalty should even be in the feats, and that is why I find fault with feats, not the rods. The rods are just FiC(feats in a can).

[Mangiare]

I was researching the boards on metamagic rods, and found this thread. The following is from the PRD, and the paragraph on the sorcerers and bards explains the rationale quite well:

Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.