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My friend who is a fellow player pointed out that the only condition required for a sneak attack is the creature being flanked or denied dex in order to add sneak attack damage to an attack. He also pointed out that no where does it say that only one sneak attack can be made in a round. So can a rogue sneak attack multiple times in a round if a creature is being flanked or is stunned?
Also there is a rogue ability that allows what seems to be multiple sneak attacks in a round. I forget the abilities name but it allows you to mark someone as your prey.
As long as the conditions are met, the rogue can indeed full-attack and apply sneak attack to each attacks. Flanking is the most common tactics.
Don't know about the prey thing though, but the above should help.
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My friend who is a fellow player pointed out that the only condition required for a sneak attack is the creature being flanked or denied dex in order to add sneak attack damage to an attack. He also pointed out that no where does it say that only one sneak attack can be made in a round. So can a rogue sneak attack multiple times in a round if a creature is being flanked or is stunned?
Also there is a rogue ability that allows what seems to be multiple sneak attacks in a round. I forget the abilities name but it allows you to mark someone as your prey.
As long as they're still flat footed/denied dex/flanked when you attack, yes.
Flanking rogue. Multiple attacks. They all sneak attack.
Invisible rogue: Attack, you're invisible, so you sneak attack. On your next attack you're not invisible, so no sneak attack.
Pop out of the shadows, make 1 attack, sneak attack. They see you there. Second attack they know you're there from the knife in their kidney, no sneak attack on the next attacks.
It seems that this is the case whether you make iterative attacks from a high base attack bonus or if you use two weapons.
does greater invisibility then cause all your attacks to add SA damage?
does greater invisibility then cause all your attacks to add SA damage?
Yes.
This is particularly nasty on an archer rogue.
My friend who is a fellow player pointed out that the only condition required for a sneak attack is the creature being flanked or denied dex in order to add sneak attack damage to an attack. He also pointed out that no where does it say that only one sneak attack can be made in a round. So can a rogue sneak attack multiple times in a round if a creature is being flanked or is stunned?
Also there is a rogue ability that allows what seems to be multiple sneak attacks in a round. I forget the abilities name but it allows you to mark someone as your prey.
The only time that you can sneak-a-attack once is when your making an attack of opportunity, even if you have multiple opportunity attacks.
The only time that you can sneak-a-attack once is when your making an attack of opportunity, even if you have multiple opportunity attacks.My friend who is a fellow player pointed out that the only condition required for a sneak attack is the creature being flanked or denied dex in order to add sneak attack damage to an attack. He also pointed out that no where does it say that only one sneak attack can be made in a round. So can a rogue sneak attack multiple times in a round if a creature is being flanked or is stunned?
Also there is a rogue ability that allows what seems to be multiple sneak attacks in a round. I forget the abilities name but it allows you to mark someone as your prey.
Not true. You can add sneak attack to any AoO that is valid for sneak attack.
Example : I am flanking a fighter who retrieves a potion as a move equivalent action, he provokes an attack of opportunity and I stab him and do sneak attack. He then drinks the potion with a standard action, this provokes a second AoO (for a different reason), so I get another AoO, and since I'm still flanking him, I get Sneak Attack again (assuming I have combat reflexes and have more than one AoO per round).
Not true. You can add sneak attack to any AoO that is valid for sneak attack.Example : I am flanking a fighter who retrieves a potion as a move equivalent action, he provokes an attack of opportunity and I stab him and do sneak attack. He then drinks the potion with a standard action, this provokes a second AoO (for a different reason), so I get another AoO, and since I'm still flanking him, I get Sneak Attack again (assuming I have combat reflexes and have more than one AoO per round).
Honestly....I haven´t check the rules for AoO and Sneak attack for Pathfinder. I'm thinking more in terms of 3.5, were you have an Epic Feat that allows you to make sneak attack on AoO. I'm going to look it up to find the answer. Thank you.
Honestly....I haven´t check the rules for AoO and Sneak attack for Pathfinder. I'm thinking more in terms of 3.5, were you have an Epic Feat that allows you to make sneak attack on AoO. I'm going to look it up to find the answer. Thank you.
Sneak Attack Of Opportunity [Epic]
PrerequisitesSneak attack +8d6, opportunist class feature.
BenefitAny attack of opportunity you make is considered a sneak attack.
This feat allows you to always make a sneak attack on an AoO, even when you are not meeting the normal sneak attack requirements.
Note that it says "Any attack of opportunity...".
Without this feat you would have to meet the normal requirements.
PS:When I say "always" I am assuming the monster is vulnerable to sneak attacks, and not a monster such as an elemental.
It's difficult to read your responses when they are included in quoted text.
When you use the quote feature, be sure there's an end quote block (This: [ /QUOTE] without a space after the first bracket) before your response. Nested quotes can get confusing, so the preview button will show you if you missed one.
does greater invisibility then cause all your attacks to add SA damage?
Yes.
This is particularly nasty on an archer rogue.
Only if with in 30 ft of range. Realy the archer rouge is the WORST sneak attacker build for a rouge. Melee is way better. As pointed out in this thread as long as the condition are stll met you can add Sneak attack dice. The easyest is Flank. The cacthing the oppentent flattfooted this the range has edge over melee. Due the fact that melee may have to move to attack bad guy. There for only geting one attack where Range unloads a full route. But this is only better level 8 when range has two attacks or if range has rapid shot.
The greater invisablity work just as well for range or melee.
Range best 6 attacks per round cost 2 feat and 1 spell.
Melee best 9 attacks per round cost 3 feats and 1 spell DEX 19.
It's difficult to read your responses when they are included in quoted text.
When you use the quote feature, be sure there's an end quote block (This: [ /QUOTE] without a space after the first bracket) before your response. Nested quotes can get confusing, so the preview button will show you if you missed one.
Celurian's "quote" error was not even noticed by me. I fixed my last post so his response to MDT is now isolated. Thanks for the catch.
My friend who is a fellow player pointed out that the only condition required for a sneak attack is the creature being flanked or denied dex in order to add sneak attack damage to an attack. He also pointed out that no where does it say that only one sneak attack can be made in a round. So can a rogue sneak attack multiple times in a round if a creature is being flanked or is stunned?
Also there is a rogue ability that allows what seems to be multiple sneak attacks in a round. I forget the abilities name but it allows you to mark someone as your prey.As long as they're still flat footed/denied dex/flanked when you attack, yes.
Flanking rogue. Multiple attacks. They all sneak attack.
Invisible rogue: Attack, you're invisible, so you sneak attack. On your next attack you're not invisible, so no sneak attack.
Pop out of the shadows, make 1 attack, sneak attack. They see you there. Second attack they know you're there from the knife in their kidney, no sneak attack on the next attacks.
It seems that this is the case whether you make iterative attacks from a high base attack bonus or if you use two weapons.
From the way I understand if you pop out of the shadows you gain surprise which leaves the victim flat footed and denied their dex. That qualifies for a sneak attack, on single attack. Then initiative is rolled and if you beat your victims initiative they are still flat footed till their initiative came up. So you could full attack with sneak attack then.
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From the way I understand if you pop out of the shadows you gain surprise which leaves the victim flat footed and denied their dex. That qualifies for a sneak attack, on single attack. Then initiative is rolled and if you beat your victims initiative they are still flat footed till their initiative came up. So you could full attack with sneak attack then.
Only if it is the start of the battle.
Barring feats/special abilities that explicitly make a target temporarily flat footed against you, people get flat footed only at the start of a fight.
My personal favorite take on this:
Rogue with two-weapon fighting dual wielding short swords (or even daggers for that matter), with the Outflank feat(teamwork feat from APG, fighter of the team takes this too, they both get +4 to hit when flanking and when one guy confirms a crit, the other guy get's an AoO). On a full round attack you get like 4 melee attacks and if any of them confirm a crit, your buddy get's an AoO. Then on his turn, if any of his attacks confirm one, YOU get an AoO. I've seen this in action and it can be pretty devastating (except against things that can't be flanked....).
As a DM, I house rule that rogues cannot get sneak attacks in with off-hand weapons, not to nerf the rogue so much as to make the dual wielding ranger less awful by comparison. I mean really, the rogue is by FAR a better TWF guy than the TWF ranger by RAW, at least in terms of melee damage, which is a big part of it, plus the rogue can disarm traps, can't be flanked, is never flat-footed, get's tons of skill points to throw around, etc.
I mean really, the rogue is by FAR a better TWF guy than the TWF ranger by RAW, at least in terms of melee damage, which is a big part of it, plus the rogue can disarm traps, can't be flanked, is never flat-footed, get's tons of skill points to throw around, etc.
Urban Ranger can mostly fill a rogue role except for the sneak attack damage. But anyway, I have a question also:
Say you're trying to sneak into a compound and you have a single guard in your way. You have multiple bow attacks, let's say 3. You're hidden and after a quick perception check, the guard can't see you. Initiative hasn't been rolled. The rogue player says "I'm going to full attack the guard." If he hits, do all three attacks get SA damage?
My personal favorite take on this:
Rogue with two-weapon fighting dual wielding short swords (or even daggers for that matter), with the Outflank feat(teamwork feat from APG, fighter of the team takes this too, they both get +4 to hit when flanking and when one guy confirms a crit, the other guy get's an AoO). On a full round attack you get like 4 melee attacks and if any of them confirm a crit, your buddy get's an AoO. Then on his turn, if any of his attacks confirm one, YOU get an AoO. I've seen this in action and it can be pretty devastating (except against things that can't be flanked....).
As a DM, I house rule that rogues cannot get sneak attacks in with off-hand weapons, not to nerf the rogue so much as to make the dual wielding ranger less awful by comparison. I mean really, the rogue is by FAR a better TWF guy than the TWF ranger by RAW, at least in terms of melee damage, which is a big part of it, plus the rogue can disarm traps, can't be flanked, is never flat-footed, get's tons of skill points to throw around, etc.
Well to be honest the ranger get those feats for free with out having to meet the pre-requisites. The rogue has to spend his feats on them and have a high Dex to get them. Of course Dex is the rogues primary stat so no big deal but it means they have less strength. The ranger could have 10 Dex and 20 Str.
Well to be honest the ranger get those feats for free with out having to meet the pre-requisites. The rogue has to spend his feats on them and have a high Dex to get them. Of course Dex is the rogues primary stat so no big deal but it means they have less strength. The ranger could have 10 Dex and 20 Str.
Not to mention that the ranger IS a better TWF, in that he's a full BAB class, so at higher levels, he's hitting more often with his weapons, meaning he's probably doing as much damage even without sneak attack.
Barring feats/special abilities that explicitly make a target temporarily flat footed against you, people get flat footed only at the start of a fight.
Right, but the flat footed doesn't go away until they act. So
Sneaky the kobold rogue with a ring of invisibility is stealthing along and a party of adventurers comes into his tunnel.
He Makes his stealth check, pops out of the shadows and attacks Squishy the wizard. BOO! Surprise round!
he sneak attacks for 2 reasons 1) He is invisible 2) Squishy is flat footed because squishy hasn't acted yet. Its a surprise round so Sneaky only gets a standard action.
Regular Round 1: Sneaky beats squishy in initiative. While Sneaky IS visible, and squishy knows he's there, Until squishy acts he's flat footed, has no dex bonus to ac, and can be sneak attacked. Sneaky can use iterative attacks, two weapons, two weapon natural attack combos... pretty much anything that doesn't specifically say it sneak attacks he can use to sneak attack on EVERY hit.
Squishy then acts. he is no longer flat footed and the rogue needs to find some other way to sneak attack him.
Say you're trying to sneak into a compound and you have a single guard in your way. You have multiple bow attacks, let's say 3. You're hidden and after a quick perception check, the guard can't see you. Initiative hasn't been rolled. The rogue player says "I'm going to full attack the guard." If he hits, do all three attacks get SA damage?
The rogue can't do this. The rogue attacks, its a surprise round. The rogue gets a standard action and thus can't make 3 attacks.
If the rogue wins initiative THEN all three attacks he does will sneak attack.
Say you're trying to sneak into a compound and you have a single guard in your way. You have multiple bow attacks, let's say 3. You're hidden and after a quick perception check, the guard can't see you. Initiative hasn't been rolled. The rogue player says "I'm going to full attack the guard." If he hits, do all three attacks get SA damage?
The way this would work is that you would get a surprise round against the guard. So that lets you take a single attack, and the guard is flat-footed so you get your sneak attack damage.
Then you and the guard roll initiative; if you beat the guard, then you get to take your full attack against the guard while the guard is still flat-footed. If the guard beats you, then he is no longer flat-footed when it comes time for your attack.
I mean really, the rogue is by FAR a better TWF guy than the TWF ranger by RAW, at least in terms of melee damage, which is a big part of it, plus the rogue can disarm traps, can't be flanked, is never flat-footed, get's tons of skill points to throw around, etc.Urban Ranger can mostly fill a rogue role except for the sneak attack damage. But anyway, I have a question also:
Say you're trying to sneak into a compound and you have a single guard in your way. You have multiple bow attacks, let's say 3. You're hidden and after a quick perception check, the guard can't see you. Initiative hasn't been rolled. The rogue player says "I'm going to full attack the guard." If he hits, do all three attacks get SA damage?
No. Cause it is supriese round and you should always roll Initiatvative be for you roll attack. And in a supise round you only get a standard action. Not full rounds attack action. Or it 1 shot and hide. Other wise it just like inv.Shot then your visable so target is no longer flatfooted. Just like if you have them flanked and they have the abilty to sidestep after you swing then they or not flanked for the next swing.No sneak attack dice.
So many questions, so few answers.
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So many questions, so few answers.Well the general consensus was that there is no limit on how many sneak attack a rogue can make per round.
But that is so unbelievably broken I cannot believe that even the Unchained Rogue can do it. For example: A flanking level 10 rogue with Improved two weapon fighting: A possibility of 20d6 on top of the 4 attacks. That's as much as some spells from a level 20 caster on the sneak attack alone not counting talents for re-rolling and extra effects.
So yeah that's horribly broken, so I'm personally house ruling that you can only get one sneak attack per turn, on any successful hit so it can happen most turns, but only one. It seems much more balanced.
First, nice necro.
Second, it isn't broken.
Assume that a Level 10 Unchained Rogue has a Dex of 23 (15+2race+2lvl+4belt).
Also assume that the level 10 unchained rogue has two +2 light weapons and Weapon Focus, TWF, Imp.TWF, and Double Slice)
(Total price so far: 32,000gp out of 62,000gp leaving 30,000gp for armor, saves, and other equipment.)
attack = 16/16/11/11 (7BAB+6dex+1WF+2enh-2TWF+2flank)
damage = 1d6+8+5d6SA (1d6rapier+6dex+2enh+5d6sneak attack)
Average per hit: 11.5+17.5 per hit
Now lets look at a Fighter of the same level:
Assume a Level 10 fighter has a Str of 23 (15+2race+2lvl+4belt).
Also assume that the fighter has a +3 great sword, Power Attack (-3att/+9dam), Weapon Focus (1), Weapon Specialization (2), Weapon Training (2), Improved Critical.
attack = +19/14 (10+6str+1WF+2WT+3Enh-3PA)
damage = 2d6+25 (+9str+2WS+2WT+3Enh+9PA)
Average per hit: 32
Sure, the rogue is doing 116 per round vs the Fighter's 64 BUT, the rogue is not likely to hit.
Against the average CR10 AC of 24 the DPR is:
Rogue: (0.65*(11.5+17.5)+0.15*2*0.65*11.5)*2+ (0.40*(11.5+17.5)+0.15*2*0.40*11.5)*2 = 68.145damage per round
Fighter: (0.8*(32)+0.2*2*0.8*32)+(0.55*(32)+0.2*2*0.55*32) = 60.48damage per round
Summary: The rogue is barely out-damaging the Fighter and is spending a whole bunch of feats to do it, has to get into a flanking position, AND the monster has to hold still long enough to suffer a full-attack sequence.
If the AC of the monster increases (for example, a CR12 monster with an average AC of 27) the Rogue's damage drops even farther while the Fighter's damage drops just a bit.
BTW, this isn't even the best fighter build I could come up with. This was an off-the cuff build (for example, I could have given the Fighter mutagen and increased his attack bonus by +2 and damage by +3). Better yet, @level 10 my Halfling Cavalier averages over 80damage (110+ with a challenge) per round with a single almost never-miss hit!