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My players have come up with a very unusual plan to attack Jhavhul. I think I'm going to need help deciding how to adjudicate it.
Back in Kakishon, my PCs played peacemaker. They successfully convinced the shaitans to allow the proteans to escape Kakishon through the Earth Seed and convinced the proteans to trust the shaitans long enough to escape.
So in Bayt al-Bazan, the party had the proteans with them part of the time. Specifically, the PCs had protean help when they fought the brass juggernaut--the Gargantuan animated object of living brass that guards the only way out of the treasury level and up into the palace. Imentesh proteans can use polymorph any object once per day as a spell-like ability and one used this ability on the brass juggernaut. The animated object failed its save and was permanently transformed into a fine screw of living brass, still animated, but harmless. (What's it going to do? Roll around in little circles menacingly?)
My players scooped it up and put it in an empty potion vial. I thought they were just keeping it as a souvenir, even though we all joked about stabbing Jhavhul with it as a finishing move. (You got screwed!)
I was wrong. They actually intend to put this plan into action. They want to stab Jhavhul with the screw (or otherwise get it partway into his body), then cast dispel magic on it to turn it back into a gargantuan animated object, hopefully exploding Jhavhul as it expands.
I blame myself for putting this idea in their heads. I was the one who pointed out that permanent duration spells can be dispelled later.
While I think this is a very silly way for Jhavhul to go out, I don't actually want to just shut down this plan. I want to adjudicate it as fairly as possible, but I've never before encountered a comparable situation, so I'm asking for ideas and recommendations.
What sort of attack roll should I have the monk make to stab Jhavhul with the screw and make sure it stays imbedded in his flesh?
If they successfully imbed the screw and successfully cast dispel magic on it, should Jhavhul get some sort of Fortitude or Reflex save to avoid taking damage from the expanding object in his flesh?
Should a successful save halve the damage or negate it completely?
How much damage do you think it should do?
PCs: they just keep coming up with new ways to surprise you, don't they?
I was wrong. They actually intend to put this plan into action. They want to stab Jhavhul with the screw...
That is so friggin awesome.
If I were one of your players, I would have it affixed to a polearm for maximum possible depth.
You're looking at an instant kill IMO.
But of course they will have to deal with the juggernaut if they succeed.
Edit: Dispel Magic works instantaneously. This thing will go off literally like a small bomb, with a range of however big the juggernaut is. If they get it stuck inside his torso, he's toast. If it's even in the same square as he's standing, it will hit him like a Mac truck going 90 mph. It's probably your PCs that will need the saving throw, if any are foolish enough to be in melee range when the spell goes off.
That is so friggin awesome.
I know right! It's also silly and potentially final-encounter-breaking, but it's definitely awesome!
But of course they will have to deal with the juggernaut if they succeed.
They are aware of this. They figure they can take out the juggernaut easily after Jhavhul's dead. They are in all likelihood correct. Plus, if Jhavhul is flying over the lava pool when they enact the plan, the juggernaut will just fall in.
I'd have it do a bunch of damage and perhaps blow off a limb. Give it a real effect without negating the whole.encounter.
base it on a disintegrate - and the Gawds help the BBEG if he blows that Fort save ...
Hmm well they must hit very good and burry that thing really deep in Javhul for this stunt to work. A screw isn't that long, maybe 5cm? Javhul is a Giant, imagine that you have one of this tiny nails (2cm) sticking in your arm and it would suddenly expand. Shure, it would hurt you and leave a nasty fleshwound, but you wouldn't explode!
That is a really nice idea, but also really cheesy ... and it doesn't feel satisfactory in the least, to instakill the BBEG of such a cool campaign with a bug. Kudos to you supporting your players, but I would not allow that. Maybe you could do something of a middleway? In Xotanis grave there are a lot of elemental powers, the skulls of a gods progeny nearby and some serious magic saturating the air. In such an environment it isn't that far a stretch, so have some spell like this being dispelled or mutated. And maybe the brass giant went insane and so takes out one of the encounters for the players in his fits of rage. This way they would be rewarded for their cleverness, but won't rob the campaign of its rightful epic finish.
The screw is small, but we're not talking about it suddenly expanding. It would change from a 5cm screw to a gargantuan juggernaut, instantly. Like a small bomb exploding, then stopping at the appropriate size. Like I said before, it would be like getting hit with a truck on the highway. Further, there would likely be a shock wave. A PC in range of the expansion might be killed. The shockwave might collapse the cave. Who knows.
I know the fight is supposed to go a certain way, but I think this crazy plan is equally epic. And it carries at least as much potential risk as the fight as written.
I would rule it pretty simply:
Improvised Weapon (Thrown?) to `imbed` the screw, using CMB check (arrows don`t automatically `stick` in targets, and abilities I`ve seen which are based on that use a CMB check)
Then when it is dispelled, I would use the same damage effects as when objects are mis-teleported into non-empty space (damage goes both to Javhul and the Juggernaut), which I BELEIVE allows a Save for half.
That`s it. Perhaps not as powerful as they might expect, but it`s probably worth the time to pull it off in-combat. ...At least if the Juggernaut doesn`t live and is ready to continue the fight :-)
Assuming your playing Pathfinder, the targeted Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel would work, but remember that your players have to make the role versus DC 11+ the Caster's level for the dispel to work.
As for damage, I agree with Qualidar that the screw can't penatrate deep enough for a total kill. Blow off a limb or do a bunch of dice to his belly. I'd kill Javhul only if they manage to get the screw into his ear (nice use for a telekinisis spell), or imbed it into his neck.
Insta-kill is not on the table. A significant amount of damage is. I'm just not sure how much.
Okay, dispel magic works both ways. Point out to the players that they are one dispel magic cast on them away from one of them exploding. Who wants to handle the screw now?
I personally wouldn't allow this to be especially effective, because:
1) I have a GMing philosophy which says that, while some things might round in the favor of the players or fun, basically the world should be fair and consistent. If your players would think it was lame if you did the same thing to them, I pretty much wouldn't allow it to happen to a major villain either.
2) Logically, if this tactic worked as they're hoping, it would come to dominate high level combat. If I let my players do this, they'd subsequently try to kill EVERYTHING that way, and not just in this campaign.
3) I think you can have an RPG where consistency and the laws of physics are totally subordinate to player whim and cleverness, but I don't think Pathfinder is really that kind of game. This is the first step down a road in which the PCs think in all seriousness that they can sovereign glue an immovable rod to Xotani the Firebleeder and it's powerless and just can't really move ever again.
Yes, one of the golden rules of D&D/PF is that you shouldn't apply real-life logic to magical monsters and magic as a whole, because the results can be... well silly.
For example, I read somewhere that players wanted to urinate on a water elemental, explaining that contained ammonia should disolve him right away.
Or using Major Creation to make an anti-matter bomb and destroy the world in one standard action.
Yes, you should apply Rule of Cool in certain situations. Like jumping off a roof on somebody and counting it as a charge. This is a step too much, I'd say. If it was me, I'd just have Rayali or someone else (or including a Greater Dispel effect on everything when they enter Xotani's Grave) cast Greater Dispel on them, and get rid off the damned thing. It's not like a CR 7 can harm anyone on lvl 14, 15.
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The best way to use the Jaggernaut is to be above the BEEG with the screw kept in your fingers and dispel the spell.
Jaggernaut fall on BEEG and do a lot of damage. The BEEG get a Reflex St for half damage.
Embedding the screw in the flesh of someone with DR is very hard.
When the Jaggernaut expand it will violently push away the BEEG (and depending on the size of the BEEG it will be pushed away too) but I see no reason why it should instantly kill him (unless you get him to ingest it).
I vaguely recall a spell that will create or expand a lot of stuff in your stomach. Even that one, if you do your ST, will not kill you but only suffer damage and spend your time retching.
Remember that ST and Hit point represent a lot of things, included protection by divine patrons, luck fate and so on.
I would not have it work to deal an unfair ammount of damage, like has been said before high level opponents are not ur typical creatures, they have ways to avoid certain death. At the very least a save should be allowed I'd just assign a DC 20 fortitude save and treat it as if struck by a falling object at best, be prepared for this to become a standard tactic if you allow it.
As a side note, polymorph any object would not have worked on the juggernaut since it is immune to most magic
Other people have addressed the "telefragging" adequately. (My vote is for using the "teleport mishap" rules.)
For me the non-starter is getting the screw imbedded in his flesh. That's not a simple CMB check. Weapons tend to lacerate people, not hack deeply into their flesh. That's what hitpoint represent. A deep hack is death. If a blow against Javhul went deep enough to matter, well, then he's already dead. Any hit that only deals 50 damage or so is merely flesh wound.
Then there's the issue of dropping off the screw once it's been placed there. Generally speaking, any form of adhesive that's strong enough to get the screw in (without falling off once striking Javhul's armor and brazen flesh) will also be strong enough to pull it back out. And I don't believe sticking it on the end of a crossbow bolt would do much.
So basically, unless they're going to get him to eat it... I see this as a nonissue, IMO.
...People and creatures nearby (except the owner) must be careful not to be caught by the fortress’s sudden growth. Anyone so caught takes 10d10 points of damage (Reflex DC 19 half).
No mention of it having to be embedded in their flesh to deal said damage.
I maintain that even if they just put it on the ground next to him and dispel it, it'll pack quite a punch.
(unless you get him to ingest it)
Please, please, PLEASE someone from this campaign, convince him to eat the screw!
Your options seem to be:
Instant Fortress rules.
Teleporting/Blinking into solid objects rules.
Ad-hoc ruling of Disintegrate.
Possibly adding in a bull rush effect.
Given the level of difficulty of pulling this off, I'd suggest using Finger of Death or Harm as the template. Although I'd require the use of a Hero Point to pull this off.
I'd rule it as a combat maneuver that does not provoke, damage equivalent to teleport/blinking. But you might as well make it something cool like 10d6 or 20d6, and add some condition like sickened for 1d6 rounds.
Well, it was a lot of fuss over nothing. I ran the finale yesterday and my players never got the chance to enact the screw plan.
Jhavhul blinded the fighter and the monk with pyrotechnics on the second round. The cleric was grappled by the lava tentacles then bull rushed off his flying carpet into the lava lake. In general, my players were too busy scrambling just to survive to even think of jamming the screw in Jhavhul's neck.
In the end they managed to pull off a narrow, comeback victory. The wizard got 80 points of electricity damage (prismatic spray) past Jhavhul's spell resistance and saves. The sorcerer/dragon disciple fished the cleric out of the lava just in time to save him. Then the sorc/DD luckily dispelled Jhavhul's invisibility allowing the wizard to target him with boneshatter. And the blind monk and fighter each got highly damaging lucky hits in spite of high AC and miss chance. An epic fight to end an epic campaign.