[ISWG] Harmonic Spell


Rules Questions


So...

I can just keep casting cantrips every round and never lose rounds on bardic performance?

And as a free action keep switching performance types?

Is it just me, or does that seem way too good?

I am trying really hard to come up with a reason every bard ever would not want this feat over all others... so far, nothing.

Am I missing something?


Evil Lincoln wrote:

So...

I can just keep casting cantrips every round and never lose rounds on bardic performance?

And as a free action keep switching performance types?

Is it just me, or does that seem way too good?

I am trying really hard to come up with a reason every bard ever would not want this feat over all others... so far, nothing.

Am I missing something?

That's how I originally read it. Didn't delve into it to make sure though.

Did seem a bit not through.. either by the writer or by me the reader.

-James


Yes, that would appear to be possible. But your bard would never be able to do anything other then move and sing... plus cast light or whatever. Not the most effective or fun way to play a character if you ask me.

Dark Archive

Thazar wrote:
Yes, that would appear to be possible. But your bard would never be able to do anything other then move and sing... plus cast light or whatever. Not the most effective or fun way to play a character if you ask me.

Three levels of magus should take care of that.

Although it will probably be nerfed once the developers realize it could be used for unlimited healing.


Jadeite wrote:
Thazar wrote:
Yes, that would appear to be possible. But your bard would never be able to do anything other then move and sing... plus cast light or whatever. Not the most effective or fun way to play a character if you ask me.

Three levels of magus should take care of that.

Although it will probably be nerfed once the developers realize it could be used for unlimited healing.

How can it lead to unlimited healing? Also there is a legal way for unlimited healing.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

The intention was that you have to cast a 1st or higher level spell to get a free round of performance—it's a bit unclearly worded, I'll certainly give you that. (This was a somewhat tricky feat to update, alas, due to the way bardic performances changed from 3.5; this feat first appeared in Pathfinder #12).

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
leo1925 wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Thazar wrote:
Yes, that would appear to be possible. But your bard would never be able to do anything other then move and sing... plus cast light or whatever. Not the most effective or fun way to play a character if you ask me.

Three levels of magus should take care of that.

Although it will probably be nerfed once the developers realize it could be used for unlimited healing.

How can it lead to unlimited healing? Also there is a legal way for unlimited healing.
Quote:
Soothing Performance (Su): A bard of 12th level or higher can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to a mass cure serious wounds, using the bard's level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken conditions from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 rounds of continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance affects all targets that remain within 30 feet throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.

Which way? Glorious Heat + Spark? Heal + Spell Perfection + Echoing Spell? Or the witch hexes which can only be used once per target per day? I'm always interested in new ways to gain unlimited healing.

Dark Archive

12 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
James Jacobs wrote:

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks for the errata. But what about Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Jadeite wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks for the errata. But what about Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage?

Where's "Magical Lineage" from?

(AKA: If that is from the Rulebook line and NOT from a Golarion line, I can't offer official errata.)


James Jacobs wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks for the errata. But what about Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage?

Where's "Magical Lineage" from?

(AKA: If that is from the Rulebook line and NOT from a Golarion line, I can't offer official errata.)

It's a trait in the APG.


Jadeite wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Thazar wrote:
Yes, that would appear to be possible. But your bard would never be able to do anything other then move and sing... plus cast light or whatever. Not the most effective or fun way to play a character if you ask me.

Three levels of magus should take care of that.

Although it will probably be nerfed once the developers realize it could be used for unlimited healing.

How can it lead to unlimited healing? Also there is a legal way for unlimited healing.
Quote:
Soothing Performance (Su): A bard of 12th level or higher can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to a mass cure serious wounds, using the bard's level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken conditions from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 rounds of continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance affects all targets that remain within 30 feet throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.
Which way? Glorious Heat + Spark? Heal + Spell Perfection + Echoing Spell? Or the witch hexes which can only be used once per target per day? I'm always interested in new ways to gain unlimited healing.

I am quite sure that echoing spell will be errata'd so that this loophole will be closed.

How can you use the witch's hexes to gain unlimited healing?
I was talking about glorious heat + spark.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jadeite wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks for the errata. But what about Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage?

Ah.

That's not errata. If anything, it's a FAQ candidate.

Heighten Spell just allows you to bump up a spell's level so it functions as a higher level spell. It's a really kind of weird form of metamagic that doesn't really change the way the actual spell functions at all; in fact, I kind of wish Heighten Spell had been a General feat and NOT a metamagic feat since it works so weirdly compared to all other metamatic feats. (Incidentally, this is also why you don't see us publishing Heighten Spell metamagic rods.)

I wrote most of the traits in the APG, including magical lineage, and as the author of that trait I would recommend that you go ahead let it work with Heighten Spell. If it starts to feel overpowered to you, as the GM you can change your mind (but if you do, I'd give the player the option to pick a new trait).

An actual errata or FAQ for it though would have to come from Jason and the design team. Let's all hit the FAQ button on the question!!!

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:

The intention was that you have to cast a 1st or higher level spell to get a free round of performance—it's a bit unclearly worded, I'll certainly give you that. (This was a somewhat tricky feat to update, alas, due to the way bardic performances changed from 3.5; this feat first appeared in Pathfinder #12).

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

That Official Errata sucks for my multiclass bard/oracle/cavalier/battle_herald... :( I can tell you that even without the errata, the feat was a bit useless in actual PLAY... (i.e. it is only effective when you to start a performance in the first round of fighting, which doesn't occur very often as you often need to do something different as a buffer/support guy...)

So this errata makes this situational feat even more useless. Thanks for this fine thread Evil Lincoln!!! :P

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

That Official Errata sucks for my multiclass bard/oracle/cavalier/battle_herald... :( I can tell you that even without the errata, the feat was a bit useless in actual PLAY... (i.e. it is only effective when you to start a performance in the first round of fighting, which doesn't occur very often as you often need to do something different as a buffer/support guy...)

So this errata makes this situational feat even more useless. Thanks for this fine thread Evil Lincoln!!! :P

The feat isn't meant to be used by quadruple multiclassed characters though. It's really aimed at single-classed bards who'll be doing a fair amount of spellcasting. In actual play, getting rounds of free bardic performance AND being able to switch between what your performance is as a swift action is VERY good... especially for lower level bards.

Sorry it doesn't work for your character. Maybe your GM will be lenient and not care about what I say?


James Jacobs wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

The intention was that you have to cast a 1st or higher level spell to get a free round of performance—it's a bit unclearly worded, I'll certainly give you that. (This was a somewhat tricky feat to update, alas, due to the way bardic performances changed from 3.5; this feat first appeared in Pathfinder #12).

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

That Official Errata sucks for my multiclass bard/oracle/cavalier/battle_herald... :( I can tell you that even without the errata, the feat was a bit useless in actual PLAY... (i.e. it is only effective when you to start a performance in the first round of fighting, which doesn't occur very often as you often need to do something different as a buffer/support guy...)

So this errata makes this situational feat even more useless. Thanks for this fine thread Evil Lincoln!!! :P

The feat isn't meant to be used by quadruple multiclassed characters though. It's really aimed at single-classed bards who'll be doing a fair amount of spellcasting. In actual play, getting rounds of free bardic performance AND being able to switch between what your performance is as a swift action is VERY good... especially for lower level bards.

Yes, true.


I have to say that between Harmonic Spell and Lingering Performance, my bard has basically unlimited performance (and I've been playing it the way James errata'd the feat since day 1) and it's been pretty awesome.


Well it seems like a really nice feat at first but I see a few problems with it.

At low levels you probably won't be casting that much, because you only have very limited spellslots.
Even then, usually you cast in the first round, and start your performance in maybe the second round, and after that it's probably not that important anymore to cast, since the fight is well in hand now.

From level 7 on, you can technically start bardic performance and cast a spell in the first round. I guess it depends on interpretation if it actually uses a round or performance on that first round or not.

However this level, you now have a larger amount of rounds available, and saving 1 round is not such a huge deal anymore.
I mean you have 20+ rounds at level 7, assuming the standard "3-4 encounters per day", that means 5 rounds per fight

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:
Sorry it doesn't work for your character. Maybe your GM will be lenient and not care about what I say?

INCONCEIVABLE! (and I do think it means what I think it means... :) )

Sovereign Court

Quatar wrote:

However this level, you now have a larger amount of rounds available, and saving 1 round is not such a huge deal anymore.

I mean you have 20+ rounds at level 7, assuming the standard "3-4 encounters per day", that means 5 rounds per fight

All Hail Qatar!

(Who clearly worded my problem with James' new Errata)

1. single classed bards have rounds of perform up the ying yang

2. which makes Harmonic Spell really pretty much just useful with dudes who have a low amount of perform such as quadruple bypassed bards (such as mine! and he's a drunk general in RP, so this pun is intended)

3. plus Harmonic Spell as Qatar said is not good at low levels so much due to limited spellcasting

4. so if meant to be good at high levels when you have ying yang amounts of untold bardness, why bother take the feat? meh

5. conclusion: Harmonic is situational (first round perform required) and meant for low bardic round count dudes such as my lame bard (and again pun intended, as he has the said oracle curse)

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks for the errata. But what about Heighten Spell and Magical Lineage?

Ah.

That's not errata. If anything, it's a FAQ candidate.

Heighten Spell just allows you to bump up a spell's level so it functions as a higher level spell. It's a really kind of weird form of metamagic that doesn't really change the way the actual spell functions at all; in fact, I kind of wish Heighten Spell had been a General feat and NOT a metamagic feat since it works so weirdly compared to all other metamatic feats. (Incidentally, this is also why you don't see us publishing Heighten Spell metamagic rods.)

I wrote most of the traits in the APG, including magical lineage, and as the author of that trait I would recommend that you go ahead let it work with Heighten Spell. If it starts to feel overpowered to you, as the GM you can change your mind (but if you do, I'd give the player the option to pick a new trait).

An actual errata or FAQ for it though would have to come from Jason and the design team. Let's all hit the FAQ button on the question!!!

Thanks again. Since it affects other effects as well, I have created a new thread for the question.

Link


James Jacobs wrote:

The intention was that you have to cast a 1st or higher level spell to get a free round of performance—it's a bit unclearly worded, I'll certainly give you that. (This was a somewhat tricky feat to update, alas, due to the way bardic performances changed from 3.5; this feat first appeared in Pathfinder #12).

OFFICIAL HARMONIC SPELL ERRATA FOR CLARIFICATION:

Change the first line of the Benefit to: "Whenever you cast a 1st or higher level spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance..."

It's still a REALLY good feat for bards, obviously, but it only lets you maintain performances for a number of times per day equal to your depletable spell slots.

Thanks James for the swift and clear response!

Ultimately, I think it still ought to have been two feats: one to switch performances as a free action after casting, and one to save a round of performance while casting.

Even so, that just means it's still a damned good feat, and that's okay. The erratum is fair and makes good sense.

Shadow Lodge

*Casts Raise dead on thread*

so another factor ... a friend of mine just brought this up ... by RAW it works I just ant to be sure -

the progression of question

Harmonic spell - 1st level spell - Battle Dance from Dawnflower Dervish

does Harmonic Spell still function for maintenance when the performance is Dance and not a sound based performance

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