Andrew Christian wrote:

It doesn't get iffy at all. If you are using a two-handed weapon, you don't get to use armor spikes at all during your normal progression of attacks. TWF refers to using a weapon in your off-hand. Not using your leg or shoulder.

Again you're wrong as to the rules.

There are many weapons that we've detailed over and over in this thread that don't require an actual hand to use. You know them by now. Please look them up.

But you're saying that to use say a boot blade you need to put in in your hand... I mean that IS what you're saying, right?

That if a PC had both their hands full that they couldn't attack with a boot blade because it is a light weapon and has to be used with a hand like all light weapons...

You seem like a nice person, but your grasp on the rules is not as solid as it might be. If you are so inclined I think you might want to peruse a few of the rules forums and go over some of the rule books.

-James

I have looked them up. And they work differently than Armor Spikes.

If the weapon itself doesn't expressly offer how it is different than the way the standard rules work, then the weapon will work as the standard rules apply.

Also, you don't quite seem to be getting my distinction between "off-hand" weapon/needing a "hand" free and actually using a weapon in your hand.

There is a distinction. For abstract purposes and to keep things as simple as possible. Weapons are defined as needing a "hand" free to use. A light weapon needs a hand. A sword needs a hand. A two-handed weapon needs two hands. To attack with TWF you need a weapon in each hand. To use armor spikes, you need a "hand" free. Which means you can't be tying up your body wielding other things in your hands. Not that you need to actually use your hand to wield the weapon.

Again, go set up a real life example. Have your friends move within 10' and 5' of you and try to actually hit both of them with a spear and armor spikes. I don't care where they are. To set yourself correctly to use a long spear, you can't use your thighs, shoulders, chest or upper arm to attack with.

Looking into the PRD at Two-Weapon Fighting it states that one of the weapons has to be an off-hand weapon.

When using a two-handed weapon you obviously can't use a physical hand, but as pointed out, there are several weapons that still count as off-hand.

Therefore, it does follow that if you took the proper penalties for two weapon fighting,you could still threaten with both.

Again, go set up a real life example. Have your friends move within 10' and 5' of you and try to actually hit both of them with a spear and armor spikes. I don't care where they are. To set yourself correctly to use a long spear, you can't use your thighs, shoulders, chest or upper arm to attack with.

This is a world of magic, I try to stay away from real-world examples :P

It does seem to come down to the definition of hand.

Andrew Christian wrote:

Again, go set up a real life example. Have your friends move within 10' and 5' of you and try to actually hit both of them with a spear and armor spikes. I don't care where they are. To set yourself correctly to use a long spear, you can't use your thighs, shoulders, chest or upper arm to attack with.

This is a world of magic, I try to stay away from real-world examples :P

It does seem to come down to the definition of hand.

True. And I appreciate you throwing your two cents in on this discussion.

Yeah, real world examples aren't always perfect, because 90% of what you can do in the game, you probably can't accomplish in real life without being a freak.

cblome59 wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Again, go set up a real life example. Have your friends move within 10' and 5' of you and try to actually hit both of them with a spear and armor spikes. I don't care where they are. To set yourself correctly to use a long spear, you can't use your thighs, shoulders, chest or upper arm to attack with.

This is a world of magic, I try to stay away from real-world examples :P

It does seem to come down to the definition of hand.

True. And I appreciate you throwing your two cents in on this discussion.

Yeah, real world examples aren't always perfect, because 90% of what you can do in the game, you probably can't accomplish in real life without being a freak.

To be more specific, I think the question becomes "Do you still have an off hand for the us of an off-hand weapon while using a two handed weapon?" The rules do not say specifically say no.

I don't think we are talking about actual 'hands' when we talk about these things. A boot blade counts as an off-hand weapon. Obviously not in your hand.

I think what we are talking about comes down to is which weapons are active. I can agree that you can have a weapon in each hand and a boot blade, but only that you could have two of those weapons 'active'.

And James, I'm not trying to come off as a jerk above, so if I have, my apologies.

You're not coming off as a jerk.

There's not a question of 'active' for weapons.. rather the criteria is can you make an attack with such a weapon. Not that you are making such attacks, but could you.

For example a monk with a sword in his right hand, dagger in his left, wearing armor spikes, wearing a barbazu beard, and with a boot blade out would be able to attack adjacent squares with any of the following: the sword, the dagger, the armor spikes, the barbazu beard, the boot blade or his improved unarmed strike. Thus he threatens with each and everyone of these. During his round he might have made no attacks at all, but he still threatens with all of them.

Now all of these except possibly the sword are light weapons, but of the others only the dagger is in hand.

The argument that all light weapons need a hand to use is simply incorrect. You definitely don't need a hand free (or even a hand) to use a barbazu beard and it defies logic to believe that you need a hand free to use a boot blade. The argument presented by Mark for armor spikes suddenly needing a hand free to use would equally apply to both the barbazu beard and the boot blade. In all three cases the argument fails.

The issue of 'wielding' weapons is confusing and this normally comes up with discussions of TWF where people confuse attacking with two (or more) weapons in a round with TWFing. The above monk should someone they get a sufficient number of attacks could attack with each of those weapons in a given round and not be TWFing. Likewise a PC throwing 5 daggers (drawn via quickdraw) is not "Five Weapon Fighting". But when a PC uses TWF to get an extra attack (say to get a 6th thrown dagger attack) then they would be two weapon fighting (even though the PC in question used, in total, 6 weapons during the round). The naming can be confusing here, like in many places in D&D. Had they called it, say, "Florentine style" instead it would have been less confusing imho.

I hope this helps a bit,

James

I am not sure I see how the rules fit with Jason's and Marks interpretation.

I would suggest that if Jason does not want Spiked Armor to be able to Threaten in certain cases that they add it to the FAQ/Errata for PFRPG, because I don't just see the reasoning given as correct.

HOLY CRAP!!!! I love the discussion about spiked armor...talk about a monkey wrench. Also one thing to consider when arguing about reality and physics. Characters who have Martial Weapon Proficiency are SUPREMELY TRAINED in combat tactics and thus while we argue about what can be done in the "REAL" world by us, we are not trained like our characters. This is the concept of roleplaying at it's most basic. My intial arguement about the spiked armor was based on the physics of the item, not a character's ability.

Hey there Everybody,

Alright everybody. Lets just take it down a notch. I got a few quick points.

- We are currently looking into the whole armor spike/misc non-hand weapons and how they threaten. This was a slightly bigger issue than I first thought when I gave an off the cuff opinion.

- The thing to remember here, that I want to stress, is that generally speaking, the only places where a PFS judge is required to follow rulings is the rulebooks, updates, FAQ posts, and PFS rules documents. Everything else is left to judge discretion at the table. There is no way around this. We cannot ask our judges to be familiar with every ruling or thought from every messageboard post, even if it comes from a staff member.

- For you home game, you don't even have to pay attention to the above sources. Its your game after all.

I hope to get a FAQ on this issue soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Hey there Everybody,

Alright everybody. Lets just take it down a notch. I got a few quick points.

- We are currently looking into the whole armor spike/misc non-hand weapons and how they threaten. This was a slightly bigger issue than I first thought when I gave an off the cuff opinion.

- The thing to remember here, that I want to stress, is that generally speaking, the only places where a PFS judge is required to follow rulings is the rulebooks, updates, FAQ posts, and PFS rules documents. Everything else is left to judge discretion at the table. There is no way around this. We cannot ask our judges to be familiar with every ruling or thought from every messageboard post, even if it comes from a staff member.

- For you home game, you don't even have to pay attention to the above sources. Its your game after all.

I hope to get a FAQ on this issue soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I just want to say thanks Jason, I(And I assume most of us) know you have a tough job and rely on players/GM's to make the best decisions we can. It is appreciated that you take into account our input and that we can have an actual affect on the game. The PFS is honestly the best living campaign I have been part of. Hope to see you a NEONCON in November(should you have plans to attend).

There is no way around this. We cannot ask our judges to be familiar with every ruling or thought from every messageboard post, even if it comes from a staff member.

Wait? What? I thought Every GM was like me, having the Paizo messageboards directly linked to my brain through my datajack. ;)

Deussu wrote:

Urumi no longer has reach.

Awww! When did this happen? I really liked the urumi as it was presented in the Adventurer's Armory. Granted, it was a little broken, but it did something nothing else in PF seems able to do- hence this thread.

Count yourself fortunate that urami are still mostly broken is that they retain that marvelous game ability to actually hurt someone wearing heavy armor, whereas in annoying reality a knight teleported to a humid-tropical urumi-favoring region (where clothing consists of garments worn between the waist and the knees) to be surrounded and flogged by bad guys -- could stand their all day while they flailed away impotently with their useless weapons (even nat-20s don't help)...or at least until the knight dropped dead of heat-stroke.

---

Regards the OP: buy a dwarven thrower.

Yes, but those weapons were favored by the same people that made the katar, which goes through armor oh so nicely. reality is a b~#&# to both sides of the weapon and armor thing. and to how little the human body likes perforation.

Have you ever tried using your shoulder or elbow or chest/back as a weapon?

Most people haven't. I made the analogy to MMA and Tito Ortiz who was one of the first and probably still the best at using his shoulder to attack with while in another's guard (ground-n-pound). What's he doing with his hands?

You can't punch someone, let alone wield a two handed spear while also successfully using your shoulder to attack with. It isn't physically possible for anyone other than maybe Mr. Fantastic.

Very much as aside, but I've seen teeth knocked out with a shoulder in a boxing match, as the fighters closed to clinching distance - so within a fraction of a second its possible to shift between the effective ranges (subtleties that system doesn't handle, mind).

Hey there Everybody,

Alright everybody. Lets just take it down a notch. I got a few quick points.

- We are currently looking into the whole armor spike/misc non-hand weapons and how they threaten. This was a slightly bigger issue than I first thought when I gave an off the cuff opinion.

- The thing to remember here, that I want to stress, is that generally speaking, the only places where a PFS judge is required to follow rulings is the rulebooks, updates, FAQ posts, and PFS rules documents. Everything else is left to judge discretion at the table. There is no way around this. We cannot ask our judges to be familiar with every ruling or thought from every messageboard post, even if it comes from a staff member.

- For you home game, you don't even have to pay attention to the above sources. Its your game after all.

I hope to get a FAQ on this issue soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So I see this post marked "Answered in the FAQ"...where exactly?

Armor spikes are treated as light weapons for the purpose of threatening adjacent squares. Light weapons require the use of limbs, so you would only be able to make attacks with them if you have a free hand. Thus, wielding a two-handed reach weapon would negate your ability to "wield" (and thus threaten with) armor spikes. This isn't necessarily clear in the rules, but I just discussed it with Jason, and we're both on the same page about the intent.

Since I've long house-ruled that armor spikes have 0 reach, I approve.

I guess there are a lot of people using armor spikes specifically to threaten adjacent squares. I'd thank James Maissen for arguing this one (and many other rules questions) clearly, strongly, and I think correctly.

I guess there are a lot of people using armor spikes specifically to threaten adjacent squares. I'd thank James Maissen for arguing this one (and many other rules questions) clearly, strongly, and I think correctly.

Expect table variation.

@OP

Ive got one that fits 2 of your 3 Criteria ...

it just doesnt have reach ... but it does have Range

Aklys

also note that Whip Might fit your Idea as well ... it just requires Improved Whip Mastery

and Whip Mastery

All 3 are in Ultimate Combat

Yeah, I'm going to be ruling that if you've already used your off-hand, be it a head, a boot blade or something else, further off-hand attacks are a no-go. So no aao's with armor spikes or bite natural weapons, if you already took one with your longspear, for instance.

Yeah, I'm going to be ruling that if you've already used your off-hand, be it a head, a boot blade or something else, further off-hand attacks are a no-go. So no aao's with armor spikes or bite natural weapons, if you already took one with your longspear, for instance.

Utterly bogus. Totally unsupported by the rules.

Are you also one of the ones who imposes two-weapon fighting penalties for attacking with your longsword at BAB, and then attacking with your morningstar at BAB-5, assuming your BAB is at least 6?

Muser wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to be ruling that if you've already used your off-hand, be it a head, a boot blade or something else, further off-hand attacks are a no-go. So no aao's with armor spikes or bite natural weapons, if you already took one with your longspear, for instance.

Utterly bogus. Totally unsupported by the rules.

Are you also one of the ones who imposes two-weapon fighting penalties for attacking with your longsword at BAB, and then attacking with your morningstar at BAB-5, assuming your BAB is at least 6?

I'm guessing not, as that question is comprehensively answered in the FAQ.

Unlike the issue being discussed here, where all we have to guide us are posts from Jason and Mark further up in this thread.

kinevon wrote:

Muser wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to be ruling that if you've already used your off-hand, be it a head, a boot blade or something else, further off-hand attacks are a no-go. So no aao's with armor spikes or bite natural weapons, if you already took one with your longspear, for instance.

Utterly bogus. Totally unsupported by the rules.

Are you also one of the ones who imposes two-weapon fighting penalties for attacking with your longsword at BAB, and then attacking with your morningstar at BAB-5, assuming your BAB is at least 6?

I'm guessing not, as that question is comprehensively answered in the FAQ.

Unlike the issue being discussed here, where all we have to guide us are posts from Jason and Mark further up in this thread.

And I still have yet to understand how armor spikes require a free arm/hand to use.

Ever been hip bumped, I mean really hip bumped? I could see that doing signifcant damage if the bumper has something spiky on.

Remember that, for the most part, when we talk armor, we are not talking just a set of gloves or bracers, we are talking something that cover s a significant part of the body.

Spiked gauntlets only cover the hands, but only cost 5 gp.
Armor spikes cover the entirety of the armor, and cost 50 gp.

Yeah, I'm going to be ruling that if you've already used your off-hand, be it a head, a boot blade or something else, further off-hand attacks are a no-go. So no aao's with armor spikes or bite natural weapons, if you already took one with your longspear, for instance.

I hope you understand that someone who has so far only attacked with a longspear has not "already used [their] off-hand". But it sounds like you don't.

Hey there Everybody,

Alright everybody. Lets just take it down a notch. I got a few quick points.

- We are currently looking into the whole armor spike/misc non-hand weapons and how they threaten. This was a slightly bigger issue than I first thought when I gave an off the cuff opinion.

- The thing to remember here, that I want to stress, is that generally speaking, the only places where a PFS judge is required to follow rulings is the rulebooks, updates, FAQ posts, and PFS rules documents. Everything else is left to judge discretion at the table. There is no way around this. We cannot ask our judges to be familiar with every ruling or thought from every messageboard post, even if it comes from a staff member.

- For you home game, you don't even have to pay attention to the above sources. Its your game after all.

I hope to get a FAQ on this issue soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Where is the FAQ on this? I see 'answered in faq' over it.