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Had another encounter, rife with chasms and cliffs, fighting right up to the edge.
Something knocked one of my companions flying over the edge, a bull rush or something.
My turn came up, and being that I had the climb speed, my monk went right down the side of the cliff. Once she was even with him, I made a jump check, and snatched him out of midair before grabbing hold of the far side.
Monks still don't matter as they can't contribute effectively at their respective levels.
we said of the monk above (Monk 20/Shintao Monk 20 at the end of the campaign) "'n cresce e 'n crepa", wich, in the idiom of my zone, means "does not improve, but does not die too".
BTW, the group leader, the fighter, sent him vs the most dangerous dragon because of this :P
monks are sweet! indeed when playing a monk you dont zone out during in combat if you do you may find your self punching a corpse and forget to move on tot another dire rabbit.
All right, then let's see the build. Show me your build for a level ten monk, and let's hash out how he stacks up against CR 10 and 11 creatures from the Bestiary. I want to believe this, but I also want to see the math.
A CR 10 or 11? Seriously? A CR 11 is two CR's above an epic level encounter. When did that become the standard?
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To be fair, it was also a 3PP monk class and elf race. Ah, the naive joy of playing without understanding mechanics...
A CR 10 or 11? Seriously? A CR 11 is two CR's above an epic level encounter. When did that become the standard?
All right, then let's see the build. Show me your build for a level ten monk, and let's hash out how he stacks up against CR 10 and 11 creatures from the Bestiary. I want to believe this, but I also want to see the math.
Um, for level 10, CR 10 and 11 is right around average. A 'boss fight' would be CR 13 or 14.
Oh, I see the metric you're using. You misunderstand me. I'm not looking to run a one-on-one fight here. If you're a monk in a level 10 party, you're going to be fighting a lot of CR 10 and 11 creatures. A party can expect to handle about 4 of those a day. So, while winning or losing a one-on-one fight may not tell us anything, how well the monk's abilities function against creatures of equal CR is incredibly important. Can he hit them? How does his CMB compare to the CMDs at that level? Can he overcome saving throws to use his abilities?
In short, Mynameisjake told me he'd seen monks throw around adult black dragons like balloon animals. If he can't demonstrate that a level 10 monk can routinely make a Combat Maneuver check of 33, that's a non-starter, regardless of how fair a solo encounter with it would be.
In short, Mynameisjake told me he'd seen monks throw around adult black dragons like balloon animals. If he can't demonstrate that a level 10 monk can routinely make a Combat Maneuver check of 33, that's a non-starter, regardless of how fair a solo encounter with it would be.
Ah, got it. That wasn't me who said that, tho.
Ah, got it. That wasn't me who said that, tho.
In short, Mynameisjake told me he'd seen monks throw around adult black dragons like balloon animals. If he can't demonstrate that a level 10 monk can routinely make a Combat Maneuver check of 33, that's a non-starter, regardless of how fair a solo encounter with it would be.
And he didn't ask you to back it up ;)
Whoever mentioned the talking with a dubbed voice may have won me over though. If I'm forcing my opponents to stare at the fourth wall to read backwards text then I'm already winning. xD
monks are rad just because.
A CR 10 or 11? Seriously? A CR 11 is two CR's above an epic level encounter. When did that become the standard?
All right, then let's see the build. Show me your build for a level ten monk, and let's hash out how he stacks up against CR 10 and 11 creatures from the Bestiary. I want to believe this, but I also want to see the math.Um, for level 10, CR 10 and 11 is right around average. A 'boss fight' would be CR 13 or 14.
Oh, I see the metric you're using. You misunderstand me. I'm not looking to run a one-on-one fight here. If you're a monk in a level 10 party, you're going to be fighting a lot of CR 10 and 11 creatures. A party can expect to handle about 4 of those a day. So, while winning or losing a one-on-one fight may not tell us anything, how well the monk's abilities function against creatures of equal CR is incredibly important. Can he hit them? How does his CMB compare to the CMDs at that level? Can he overcome saving throws to use his abilities?
In short, Mynameisjake told me he'd seen monks throw around adult black dragons like balloon animals. If he can't demonstrate that a level 10 monk can routinely make a Combat Maneuver check of 33, that's a non-starter, regardless of how fair a solo encounter with it would be.
I believe Evil Lincoln said it, actually.
I have heard about the character EL is talking about anecdotally (Rob, if you end up seeing this, you should post your build). BUT there are some caveats.
I believe that EL had heard the crap about monks not being good, and decided to experimented with giving the monk a full BAB (EDIT - which also probably meant access to greater grapple). The monk player had also been playing DnD 4th, so he was looking specifically to be a maneuver monk in pathfinder.
So said monk entered the campaign at about 10th level, BUILT for MANEUVERS. He ended up pretzeling several unlikely foes, including said dragon. All of the foes came from written paizo adventures. And I can tell you from my own experience EL is no coddler DM. He believes in player death being a necessary part of the DnD experience.
What happened after the monk proved he was a very capable combatant? The monk player decided to rebuild his character as a multiclassed monk-cleric because he was doing too well!
Now I am sure some people are gonna call shenannigans and what not, but as I see it, this was valid playtesting, and the resulting conclusion was...
Monks are so Rad they don't need a full BAB!
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Monks is so fricking rad because they talk and the party is like nobody likes you and then the monks kills them all with his death touches and then the monks is a wandering monks and contemplates stuff and is really quiet and then he joins another party somehow because he is just freaking rad and can join parties without talking and then he contemplates stuff because just thinking is lame and eventually the new party is like nobody likes you and the monks kills them all too with his flurrys and then he is wandering again in his rad mysterious way and becomes even more enlightened and kills some helpless albino crocodiles after a rad altar jump and thinks up some great comparisons involving grasshoppers and finds another party to share it with and they say nobody likes you and then the monks kills them with his sandals and then rad rad rad rad monk jump kick saaiiiis rad rad
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I really want to jump on the monk bandwagon, but they just seem lacking and always have. Little things about it bug me -
The 3/4 BAB irritates me, even more so by the fact that when they get to Flurry (a mechanic which works against the fast movement class ability) or when they CMB they get full BAB.....so why when they make use of their fast movement class feature must they be penalised when they attack (which is only a single atk, so is an increase that big a deal?). Just make the damn class full BAB - they are designed to be in the thick of things doing martially coolness, there is no reason for them not to have full BAB.
1d8 HD, again, why? The monks body is his temple, he is honed and toned martial artist, not some wimpy Rogue or nancy boy Bard. I know he is not a 'frontline fighter' but that is not the point, he is running around in the thick of things (or standing still so he can use his darn Flurry) he is going to be targetted.
He is MAD, they adjusted the Paladin to reduce the issue for him, why did the monk not get the same courtesy? The Dancing Dervish uses Dex for damage bonus, why can the monk not use Dex for his to represent the number of accurate blows he gets in an attack as opposed to the force with which he hits. Or why not make Int the stat instead of Wis for AC and other bonses (the Monk is supposed to be a CMD king but you need 13 Int I think to unlock a number of Feats, trying to get that while keeping Dex, Str, Con and Wis up is a nightmare)
In all honesty, if all these changes were made (or even just a couple) can anyone claim the monk would be too powerful? Given the amount of 'they suck' posts, it seems to me that these changes would not suddenly make them gods.
Apologies, I don't want to be a downer on the thread, I just think the Monk needs a little love and deserves it.
The Monk is Rad because of the concept of a martial artist. I think the mechanics need a little push
I really want to jump on the monk bandwagon, but they just seem lacking and always have. Little things about it bug me -
The 3/4 BAB irritates me, even more so by the fact that when they get to Flurry (a mechanic which works against the fast movement class ability) or when they CMB they get full BAB.....so why when they make use of their fast movement class feature must they be penalised when they attack (which is only a single atk, so is an increase that big a deal?). Just make the damn class full BAB - they are designed to be in the thick of things doing martially coolness, there is no reason for them not to have full BAB.
1d8 HD, again, why? The monks body is his temple, he is honed and toned martial artist, not some wimpy Rogue or nancy boy Bard. I know he is not a 'frontline fighter' but that is not the point, he is running around in the thick of things (or standing still so he can use his darn Flurry) he is going to be targetted.
He is MAD, they adjusted the Paladin to reduce the issue for him, why did the monk not get the same courtesy? The Dancing Dervish uses Dex for damage bonus, why can the monk not use Dex for his to represent the number of accurate blows he gets in an attack as opposed to the force with which he hits. Or why not make Int the stat instead of Wis for AC and other bonses (the Monk is supposed to be a CMD king but you need 13 Int I think to unlock a number of Feats, trying to get that while keeping Dex, Str, Con and Wis up is a nightmare)
In all honesty, if all these changes were made (or even just a couple) can anyone claim the monk would be too powerful? Given the amount of 'they suck' posts, it seems to me that these changes would not suddenly make them gods.
Apologies, I don't want to be a downer on the thread, I just think the Monk needs a little love and deserves it.
The Monk is Rad because of the concept of a martial artist. I think the mechanics need a little push
I have a house rule for when monks fight with monk weapons or with maneuvers. The original intent of the semi-full BAB was for them to hit like fighters when fighting in their specific style, but the implementation was a little off IMHO. Instead of chaining them specifically to flurries, I allow them a full BAB when they use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, period. If your monk fights like a monk, he hits like a fighter. If your monk picks up a longsword and attempts to fight like fighter, he hits like a cleric.
This, I believe, epitomizes a scene in Lethal Weapon 4, where Jet Li's monk picks up an assault rifle. Rather than use it to shoot people, he uses it as an improvised melee weapon. He uses it "in his style" to get his full BAB. Id' even go so far as to say that a monk with catch-all gets his full BAB, seeing as it fits with every Jacky Chan movie ever made.
Monks are so Rad they use assault rifles as clubs!
THRI-KREEN MONK YAHALL! NUFF SAID
a monk is sometimes mistaken for a ninja. but never any other class..
monks are firckin rad ya'all
monks are rad when they get tied up and "unarmed" in prison cell you don't have to go with the old sick prisoner fiasco you can just flip out and kill your way to freedmom!Just check and be sure that your jail guard isn't a beast-totem barbarian first.
barbarians don't know how t read! let a lone construct clever ruses or cages or work locks! all they know how to do is express there anger in emotionally unhealthy ways and break stuff and scream "i am conan"
Lobolusk, you are full of win :)
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barbarians don't know how t read! let a lone construct clever ruses or cages or work locks! all they know how to do is express there anger in emotionally unhealthy ways and break stuff and scream "i am conan"monks are rad when they get tied up and "unarmed" in prison cell you don't have to go with the old sick prisoner fiasco you can just flip out and kill your way to freedmom!Just check and be sure that your jail guard isn't a beast-totem barbarian first.
My Barbarian has 15 Int, wears a monicle and knows multiple languages - he takes offense to your claims....careful, you won't like it when he's angry
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The 3/4 BAB irritates me, even more so by the fact that when they get to Flurry (a mechanic which works against the fast movement class ability) or when they CMB they get full BAB.....so why when they make use of their fast movement class feature must they be penalised when they attack (which is only a single atk, so is an increase that big a deal?). Just make the damn class full BAB - they are designed to be in the thick of things doing martially coolness, there is no reason for them not to have full BAB.
For purposes of the flurry he is a Full BAB class, or more correct is that his attack bonus is equal to his monk level -2. This is very similar to Rangers and other 2weapon full bab melee classes.
As for Fast Move. Every class in the game is under teh same restriction. Move more than 5' and only take a single attack.
I would like to see him as a Full BAB class but am ok w/o it. He should be able to take feats with monk weapons as if he had a Full BAB though.
1d8 HD, again, why? The monks body is his temple, he is honed and toned martial artist, not some wimpy Rogue or nancy boy Bard. I know he is not a 'frontline fighter' but that is not the point, he is running around in the thick of things (or standing still so he can use his darn Flurry) he is going to be targetted.
I am ok with the HD also. He gains other special abilities. d10's wont unbalance it but d8s work fine also.
He is MAD, they adjusted the Paladin to reduce the issue for him, why did the monk not get the same courtesy? The Dancing Dervish uses Dex for damage bonus, why can the monk not use Dex for his to represent the number of accurate blows he gets in an attack as opposed to the force with which he hits. Or why not make Int the stat instead of Wis for AC and other bonses (the Monk is supposed to be a CMD king but you need 13 Int I think to unlock a number of Feats, trying to get that while keeping Dex, Str, Con and Wis up is a nightmare)
Paladins still need 3 stats (Str, Con, Cha). Rangers need 3-4 (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Why are we not as upset about their MADness? Heck Clerics need 4 (Wis, Cha, Str, Con), Barbies need 3 (the physical stats).
Monks are in a spot where they needs to make a hard choice about their stats. Deal more damage or be more defensive (Dex or Str). SO they are a little more MADish but not that much more.
I do agree with the idea to reduce his MADness by allowing a Dex to dmg choice, and allowing him to bypass feat requirements for the Combat Maneuver feats.
In all honesty, if all these changes were made (or even just a couple) can anyone claim the monk would be too powerful? Given the amount of 'they suck' posts, it seems to me that these changes would not suddenly make them gods.
Apologies, I don't want to be a downer on the thread, I just think the Monk needs a little love and deserves it.
The Monk is Rad because of the concept of a martial artist. I think the mechanics need a little push
If it all done in a "We want the Monk to get help" mode then there is no reason to hold back.
If done in a "Bash the Monk, He is Horrible" then zip the trap.
Obviously you are the former, not the latter.
this thread is for all things monk from the sweet sound of nun chucks hitting goblin skull to not having to wear armor and being able to punch red dragons in the eyes. drop a line and say why you think the monk is sweet
Because a level 20 monk can do 2d10 damage with any part of his body.
Because the monk can say, "I kill it in a flurry of humping."
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He is MAD, they adjusted the Paladin to reduce the issue for him, why did the monk not get the same courtesy? The Dancing Dervish uses Dex for damage bonus, why can the monk not use Dex for his to represent the number of accurate blows he gets in an attack as opposed to the force with which he hits. Or why not make Int the stat instead of Wis for AC and other bonses (the Monk is supposed to be a CMD king but you need 13 Int I think to unlock a number of Feats, trying to get that while keeping Dex, Str, Con and Wis up is a nightmare)In terms of the ability to crank out damage, Monks have the edge on two weapon fighters (due to their ability to control when and where they will enter combat). While Fighters will likely have more strength (and, so, all things else being equal, will do more damage), all things else -aren't- equal. The Monk will almost certainly act before the Fighter. Then, the Monk has a lot of special combat manuevers that the Fighter is going to have to go an extra mile to get (Monks get a number of manuever feats for free without having to worry about prereqs, get stunning fist and quivering palm, etc.) and their CMB/CMD is equivalent to a fighter (via agile manuevers).
As for replacing Wis with Int - NO. We're all familiar with the stereotype of wise ancient Master Kwang, but I've never heard of the Stereotype of the kung fu astrophysicist Dr. Meng (the closest example I can think of is Buckaroo Banzai).
If more damage is a neccisity, the class might be given the option of taking power attack and cleave in exchange for two-weopon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting.
Actually that was not my quote but was the person I was quoting...I missed it in my post.
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He is MAD, they adjusted the Paladin to reduce the issue for him, why did the monk not get the same courtesy?
Because high-level monks were the most stupidly cheesed-out over-powered class in 3.5 by a long shot. Oh look! Every bit of the cheese is still here -- immune to freakin' everything and more attacks than anybody -- and they get temple swords in Pathfinder.
So yeah; quit complainin' already.
When will people learn?
Monks are Mage slayers, through and through.
Oh, you wanna cast a touch spell? Too bad all of my AC applies even to touch.
Oh, you're gonna stand in the back and cast?
Too bad I have ungodly amounts of movement to reach your ass before you can even retrieve a spell component. Let's not even get into Abundant step because I don't want the poor Mage to cry.
Fireball? how about an ungodly reflex save coupled with Improved evasion?
Mind affecting spell? Pffft! Don't even bother with Save or dies; I'll beat them every time.
You know what else? I bet it's really hard to cast while STUNNED! Good luck with that fort save Wizard!
Should I even bother mentioning Spell resistance?
monk's fricking rad at solving murders
Well a monk can find the clues pretty well, but needs the wizard/bard to understand the context, unless you are describing sense motive.
However, a bartitsu monk with a handlebar mustache, and mad knowledges? Pretty awesome :D Cane fighting FTW
Paladins still need 3 stats (Str, Con, Cha). Rangers need 3-4 (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Why are we not as upset about their MADness? Heck Clerics need 4 (Wis, Cha, Str, Con), Barbies need 3 (the physical stats).
Monks are in a spot where they needs to make a hard choice about their stats. Deal more damage or be more defensive (Dex or Str). SO they are a little more MADish but not that much more.
I must disagree here. Paladins can afford to go lighter on Con than most warriors due to their ability to swift-action lay on hands to heal themselves, meaning they can effectively survive over multiple rounds more effectively (the Fort penalty is offset by divine grace).
Rangers really only need Str and Con or Str and Dex (depending on your style) with either Dex or Con secondary, with Wisdom a far third. Truth be told you can tank your Wisdom to 7 at 1st level and still be able to get all your ranger spells by high levels if you really tried (not saying that's a great idea, just that it shows how trivial it is).
Likewise, clerics don't need Charisma. They just don't. The only thing that you could really need Charisma for as a cleric is Channel Energy which honestly isn't that amazing and is a terribly poor long-term goal (it caps out at 10d6 or an average of 35, making it a poor option for out of combat healing and a useless option for in-combat healing in your correct level range past the lowest levels). In fact, a cleric can tank Charisma hard and never feel sad about it. The only exception to this I can see is perhaps if you want to use Command Undead (turn undead is rarely worth due to undead will saves being very good, but Command can get you more meat shields).
Wanna know what's really funny? A cleric doesn't even need Wisdom that badly. If you're primary focus is healing, buffing, and putting up protective wards like protection from evil, freedom of movement and deathward, then you don't really need a Wisdom higher than 19 for most of your career (anything higher is just gravy) since unlike wizards and sorcerers your best spells don't rely on save DCs (so wisdom is really just giving access plus perhaps a bonus spell or two, but if you're smart that's not even a big deal). This is especially useful to remember as a martial cleric (who can afford to buff Strength and Constitution with Wisdom as a third or even fourth priority.
Monks on the other hand need Strength for damage if they ever intend to deal damage. They need Dex AND Wisdom to have an armor class that is somewhat respectable for a non-spellcaster. They need Constitution to survive taking hits. They need Intelligence to qualify for the higher versions of Improved Disarm and Improved Trip (but fortunately you could ignore Int pretty much entirely), and Charisma is their least useful stat by far.
Now normally I'm willing to forgive classes for various deficiencies because they have other things that they make up for them with. For example, Paladins can self-heal, remove debuffs, are immune to fear, have the almighty smite-evil, have incredible saving throws, good AC even without a high Dexterity, can swap between melee and ranged combat fairly efficiently, and can cast spells to help themselves and their allies.
So while they're arguably fairly MAD, they have a lot that can clearly compensate. Same with rangers. Rangers are skillmonkies, they have a great BAB (which makes Power Attack stronger), get an animal companion, their spells are useful for utility purposes and can give long duration buffs (rangers get longstrider at 1 hour/level for example, bringing their speed to 40ft for most or all of the adventuring day), and they are exceptionally good combatants (Aragorn style 2hander + bow rangers are pretty awesome).
Same with clerics. Clerics are arguably MAD (I don't think so, but you said it so let's go with that) and yet they get full spellcasting, healing, the ability to guard against negative levels, mind affects, party buffing, butt-kicking, plate-wearing (hey 1 feat and you're good to go), undead smiting dudes that can raise your party members when they die and phone god for answers to yes or no questions.
Meanwhile Bards can buff the party, use a wide variety of utility spells, enjoy being exceptionally difficult to find and/or hit (due to spells like mirror image and displacement), are surprisingly decent fighters due to their self-buffs and synergy with Use Magic Device (a bard can happily wield a holy avenger with no problems if the mood swings him), while also being the party's brain (Bardic Knowledge) and dedicated face (social skills classed, glibness, etc). Bards aren't even really MAD (honestly Dex + Cha gets you where you want to go most of the time, and the rest is gravy except for multiclass builds).
Monks? Well it seems like most people don't really know what they're supposed to do (at least, that's what the pro-monk people say), and those in the know apparently say you're supposed to dance around using combat maneuvers and/or stunning fist a lot, but not much else. I don't really think any of that excuses their MAD.