Lone BBEG vs. 7 players


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Liberty's Edge

I'm planning for an upcoming battle between seven 15th level pcs vs 1 level 19 illusionist and I don't want him ganked. The biggest problem I'm thinking will be number of actions.

I have an idea for an advanced form of mirror image that creates duplicates perhaps 1 duplicate per 4 caster levels (his cl for illusions will be 20). These duplicates will be able to take actions normally though use the same spells as though they were the caster. I've already tried summons against them but they have a few dispel magics prepared.

Obviously a 9th level spell, and it being the last fight of the campaign not worried about players learning it.

Any other suggestions or ways to work this?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mooks?


have the illlusioinist hidden behind illusions don't let the party find him easily have multiple fake illusions of him. there was a cool metamagic feat from one of the 3.5 that would let your spell seem to come from a diffrent direction. that works great with illusionists.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At level 15 somebody will have true seeing on. Actually, if they know that the guy is an illusionist, everybody will have it on.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Start with Mazing the fighter types.

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
At level 15 somebody will have true seeing on. Actually, if they know that the guy is an illusionist, everybody will have it on.

'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.'

How about letting the party fight a dominated friend of theirs that has his appearance changed to that of the illusionist, through surgery or magic, while the illusionist stays hidden. That way, even if kill him in the first round, it's still a memorable moment and not the end of the fight.


oh well then hit em with a dispel magic up front


Gorbacz wrote:
At level 15 somebody will have true seeing on. Actually, if they know that the guy is an illusionist, everybody will have it on.

Fair cop!

OTOH, True Seeing does nothing against the disguise skill. Give him a hireling with +20 Disguise and he can have a dozen mooks looking just like him.

Hell, if the PCs don't know what he looks like? Have a dozen mooks looking just like him -- and then have the illusionist actually be disguised as the butler, a torch carrier, or the friendly low-level NPC they met just outside the dungeon.

Doug M.


Simulacrums might be useful (although I hate that spell in general).


But if you want to stick with straight magic: Simulacrum creates a magical double of the Illusionist that can't be detected as such with True Seeing. (Though it does require a successful Disguise check -- go figure.) It's a real creature that has half the illusionist's levels and is utterly obedient to him.

Meanwhile, Project Image is a 7th level spell that creates an illusory duplicate of the wizard that can cast spells. True Seeing, or a successful Will Save, will reveal that it's a duplicate -- but this won't help the PCs much, as the duplicate can still cast spells! The real spellcaster is blind and deaf while he's running the duplicate, but he can be anywhere within the spell's range (medium = 100 + 10 per level = 290 feet, for this guy).

This is actually a fairly nasty spell -- the image is intangible and can't be hurt, but it can keep blasting the PCs for the duration of the spell. Which is 1 round/level.

Doug M.


Make sure the Illusionist casts the spell "Summon Monster IX" followed up by Illusions, and then another Summon Monster spell. That way the players don't know what's real and what isn't.

"I attempt to disbelieve the demon, he's an illusionist."
"The not-so-illusionary demon causes XXX damage to you."

The Exchange

A castle wide spell ward that disallows True Seeing with a custom illusion to make them think their true seeing spells are still working. Then reveal several illusions to get their confidence up and sucker them completely for the final battle. Also, run them through illusion traps and summons for a while, then when they get to what they think is the illusionist's room, he has already left and taken up a different identity as a beloved philanthropist in a nearby city. Remember, illusionists should be clever and tricky, even without magic.

Sudden inspiration, have the illusionist kidnap every friendly npc your players ever interacted with and have them as additional dominated and disguised doubles to pop out along with your mirror image spell. When they cut down a duplicate and see it turn into Biltus the slow-witted but affable stableboy from their favorite inn, they will hesitate to do any more randomn slashing about.


Coridan wrote:

I'm planning for an upcoming battle between seven 15th level pcs vs 1 level 19 illusionist and I don't want him ganked. The biggest problem I'm thinking will be number of actions.

I have an idea for an advanced form of mirror image that creates duplicates perhaps 1 duplicate per 4 caster levels (his cl for illusions will be 20). These duplicates will be able to take actions normally though use the same spells as though they were the caster. I've already tried summons against them but they have a few dispel magics prepared.

Obviously a 9th level spell, and it being the last fight of the campaign not worried about players learning it.

Any other suggestions or ways to work this?

I actually took part in a fight similar to this...from the BBEG side :). I knew that these tricked out players where coming for me...so I fought htem on my terms in a location of my choosing. I had a little time to prepare for it so I set a few traps ahead of time.

-Coningent Greater dispell around the doorway when it opened.
-Holed up in a large room with traps that appeared to be a normal room
-Another contingency to teleport the first person who hit me in mele to a force cage that filled with water.
-Maze the melle.

Also...may I sugest putting the pressure on to unnerve them. For example, maybe kidnap(as far as they know) a whole orphanage full of women and children and alert them that they will die in mere moments by fiery doom because they are too late Mwhahahahaha.What else are the great heroes to do except charge in blindly to save them?

I could def give more Ideas if I knew the mixup of the group. If this is a long running BBEG and this is final battle there's little shame in "metagaming" as this guy knows well whom he's fighting.

GL and i would love to hear how it goes :D


Ultimas134 wrote:
Coridan wrote:

I'm planning for an upcoming battle between seven 15th level pcs vs 1 level 19 illusionist and I don't want him ganked. The biggest problem I'm thinking will be number of actions.

I have an idea for an advanced form of mirror image that creates duplicates perhaps 1 duplicate per 4 caster levels (his cl for illusions will be 20). These duplicates will be able to take actions normally though use the same spells as though they were the caster. I've already tried summons against them but they have a few dispel magics prepared.

Obviously a 9th level spell, and it being the last fight of the campaign not worried about players learning it.

Any other suggestions or ways to work this?

I actually took part in a fight similar to this...from the BBEG side :). I knew that these tricked out players where coming for me...so I fought htem on my terms in a location of my choosing. I had a little time to prepare for it so I set a few traps ahead of time.

-Coningent Greater dispell around the doorway when it opened.
-Holed up in a large room with traps that appeared to be a normal room
-Another contingency to teleport the first person who hit me in mele to a force cage that filled with water.
-Maze the melle.

Also...may I sugest putting the pressure on to unnerve them. For example, maybe kidnap(as far as they know) a whole orphanage full of women and children and alert them that they will die in mere moments by fiery doom because they are too late Mwhahahahaha.What else are the great heroes to do except charge in blindly to save them?

I could def give more Ideas if I knew the mixup of the group. If this is a long running BBEG and this is final battle there's little shame in "metagaming" as this guy knows well whom he's fighting.

GL and i would love to hear how it goes :D

Oh and Also set up a Prismatic sphere to knock people into...Killed the monk that way after he punched my face in : /


OK, my original post got eaten, so here is a quick summary of what I came up with off the top of my head:


  • Goons -- Add in about 6-8 goons of mixed classes that are CR 10 or so (11th level PC classes, 12th level NPC classes). They won't contribute meaningfully aside from providing a meat shield for the BBEG, but that is what they are for. A 12th level warrior has around 109 HP with a 14 con. Sure the fighter can dish that in a single round, but that is a whole round spent not doing the same thing to the BBEG, and a War12 is only sort of a CR 10. Multiply that by 3 or 4, then add in some healers and a ranged/reach goon (ranger/archery fighter/boom sorc, etc), and you have a group that can cause some pretty heavy irritation.
  • Harrying parties/traps -- Whittle down PC resources. If the PCs haven't gotten a good night's sleep in 4 or 5 days, they are going to be in for some trouble. Additionally, magical/mundane traps can not only serve to for the party to expend resources, but they can be fantastic alarms.
  • "Cheap" tactics -- Pull out all the stops, even those that are traditionally not used (at least in my games): Feeblemind, Nightmare, Planar Binding, etc. Stay away from evocations unless you are spec'd for them
  • "Break the rules" -- There is nothing that says your BBEG's fortress of hate and soul crushing despair (tm) has to obey any laws of magic or physics. Rooms with variable direction/intensity of gravity populated by monsters that know how to navigate it, anti-magic rooms, sentient Iron Golem anti-paladins, persistent fog clouds in a room with a teleportation trap that sends the party back to the entrance, etc... Don't be afraid to go outside the standards for an epic combat. Perhaps the BBEG is the only one allowed extra-dimensional movement within the sanctum.
  • Cheat Death -- Maybe the BBEG also has a clone of himself sealed away on another plane, requiring the party to do some research to discover this lest they have to fight the guy again. Just do the party a favor and only have one clone...having a dozen is just cheese (I'm looking at you, you copyright protected entity that starts with M and rhymes with Anshoon). Maybe when the BBEG dies, the 'real' BBEG (some manner of outsider, for instance) bursts through his dead body to confront the party (now for my final FINAL FORM!).

These are just the things I thought of off the top of my head, so I know you can probably come up with better if you take some time to think about how your party usually does things. The important part, IMHO, is to create a completely unexpected set of circumstances that force the players to use their skills and abilities to the utmost, possibly in ways that they didn't expect. Try reading up on the class features of the characters in your game. Try coming up with ways to use those abilities that your players have not used before. Above all, read up on your BBEG. Make sure you understand the benefits and limitations of your caster (especially an illusionist) and his allies.


Simulacrum has been mentioned, as well as a greater dispel magic when they enter (to dispel the True Seeing cast preemptively).

Then I suggest adding traps in the room. Nasty, deadly traps (although not Grimtooth ones). Multiple rooms/dimensions with players teleported randomly to break their cohesion (but that can be a nightmare to DM if you aren't used to it).

In fact, why not play on the BBEG's strengths? Make them believe that they are entering the room together, only they aren't, and the group is teleported in two/three different rooms, each with a different simulacrum of the BBEG. Upon defeating it (plus possible mooks/traps), the illusion dissipates and they find out they're in the room next to the BBEG's, and can join the "main" fight. These are only random ideas, but I'm sure you can work out the details (which spells he's using to achieve that and all).


If you want to be really nasty have him fight for one or two rounds then run through an illusionary wall like he's escaping, he casts a prismatic wall right behind the illusion, watch the PCs charge through the wall.


Coridan wrote:
I'm planning for an upcoming battle between seven 15th level pcs vs 1 level 19 illusionist and I don't want him ganked. The biggest problem I'm thinking will be number of actions.

7x1 = gank. That guy needs the leadership feat. His cohort will be a summoner.


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I was thinking Leadership feat as well for a 17th level whatever. Make it another caster type if you like. They can coordinate spells. Have the other be a diviner if you want to make sure you get the drop on the PC's.

I used to love to run Project Image casters way back when. It was one of my tricks of choice back in the day.

The trick to the encounter is to make it challenging while making it beatable, too, unless you have plans to run one-shot adventures later on. Then the "mysterious death" ending works well. The PC's get their victory, but it's not a complete victory in that they aren't certain of the villain in question is truly alive or dead. Good luck!

Silver Crusade

19 illusionist < True Seeing : School divination; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 7, inquisitor 5, magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, summoner 5, witch 6
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extra-dimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

Thats why illusionist work good on at low level. After True Seeing comes in to play it's all over for the illusionist.
DM: He is known to be a powerfull illusionist.
Party: We cast True Seeing on XXXXX.
DM: You are faced with a XXXX.
Party: We have True Seeing on we see what it is and where he is.
Party: Can I have my exp for the illusionist now ?

Liberty's Edge

The guy does need to be there as I do intend for the pcs to kill him. I just don't wanna make it easy. They at level 11 just whomped a lvl conjuror by dispelling his summoned monsters and dimension dooring to get close to him.

My better mirror image idea was to avoid having to use mooks, it would be antithematic. I am not limited to published rules. This guy is old enough and powerful enough to have access to spells and such the pcs never heard of.


Illusion is one of the more defensive schools but most of its tricks ARE tricks. You are going to have to pull from other schools to make him a challenge. Gate easily deals with the dispelling summoned monsters. And True Seeing can't see through concealment. I think Mind Blank stops True Seeing, since it stops See Invisibility. You can have an illusion of a room full of Evil Illusionists but under True Seeing they are obviously not real, as they aren't there. Except the Evil Illusionist with Mind Blank and Greater Invisibility is standing amongst them casting anyway. Of course, what he will do against them is up in the air.

If you are going to make up spells, most of the ones going to be made up here as suggestions are going to be something like "Pure darkness that true seeing can't see through!" Or "Summoned Monsters immune to dispelling!"


Head fake. True Sight lets you see through Illusions but if the Illusionist knows this then you can place illusions of pits over actual pit traps. PCs see Illusion of pit, True Sight see it's actually floor, walk over "floor", fall in real pit.

Again, if you have a solo "monster" trick out the battle area with Traps. Especially ones that divide up the combat area in ways that make it harder for the players to aid each other. Their "challenge" will be negotiating those obstacles while not getting picked off.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Head fake. True Sight lets you see through Illusions but if the Illusionist knows this then you can place illusions of pits over actual pit traps. PCs see Illusion of pit, True Sight see it's actually floor, walk over "floor", fall in real pit.

Only if the pit trap is actually under a breakaway or mechanical drop away floor panel. At which point, why are you adding in redundant illusions?

Silver Crusade

Mind Blank dose not stop true seeing.

Shadow Lodge

My fix: A BBEG that isn't stupid enough to fight seven PCs solo.


calagnar wrote:
Mind Blank dose not stop true seeing.

I am pretty sure it does. There are a few threads for this already.


Coridan wrote:
This guy is old enough and powerful enough to have access to spells and such the pcs never heard of.

Re-Invent Spells (Higher Level versions)

Mirror Image - except the images scatter to the various parts of the room, making people have to run around to pop them, and give them some "hitpoints" equal to 2x level to "pop"

Color Spray - 60 foot cone, stuns the victims for 1d4+1 round (short, make each PC roll their doom), use the meta magic feat Persistent to make them roll the save twice for success, or make it a minimum of 1 round stunned

Invisibility - 8th level version, trumps True Seeing which is a lower level spell

Projected Image - at the end of the illusionist's round, a new image can appear anywhere in the room and the illusionist can "Blink" to any image, all previous images remain in place unless they take 2x level in damage (or other dispel magic means)

(all of these are aimed to slow down the PCs to allow you to set up other interesting effects)

Damage Via Illusions

Shadow Summon Monster - have fun and summon any kind of monsters as a whole end of campaign fun fest, have the monsters do 20% real damage only if people make their save against the illusion (or using true seeing)

Shadow Nightmare - use this spell to summon a whole lot previous creatures the party has defeated in the past so they can relive defeating them again, keep it at 20% damage if saves are made, etc.

Intense Light Spells - illusions use light, and lasers are light, have a spell here or there that does damage, if you get ahead on images, blinding a character isn't intensely fun unless they have an incombat cure (make it have a few rounds effect at most), dazzled, sickened, nauseous, staggered, confusion, short duration effects only, make for good other effects to go with a smaller actual hitpoint damage spell

Make the final "encounter" have stages of difficulty to get past

- a stage of old enemies to fight one last time
- a stage of fighting all the fun shadow monsters not yet fought
- a final stage of "guess where I am" style encounter

In an AD&D campaign a loooong time ago, I invented a spell called "Bangor's Surprise" that was more or less a contingency spell that restored the caster to full hitpoints upon death. This was used in a big campaign finale to ensure the bad guy wasn't killed in the first round instantly and had time to set up stuff.

Silver Crusade

Mind Blank
Target: one creature
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather
information about the target through divination magic (such as
detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also
grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mindaffecting
spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish,
miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to
gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that
scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works
but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are
targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Mind Blank protection from divination.
Invisibility, Greater +20 stealth check. Better hope there is not a rogue in the party. If so the illusionist needs full ranks in stealth and item with + stealth on it to keap hiden. Even with out true seeing.

This spell only works on the illusionist. This dose not make the illusionist spells work on the targets. So the illusionist can hide from the party with mind blank and invisibility, greater. Dose not mean any of illusion spells work on them.


well I would suspect that mind blank + mirror image(or his higher lvl modified version) would also work vs true seeing.

True seeing would be giving out information about him if it were to pierce his mirror images.


Cartigan wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Head fake. True Sight lets you see through Illusions but if the Illusionist knows this then you can place illusions of pits over actual pit traps. PCs see Illusion of pit, True Sight see it's actually floor, walk over "floor", fall in real pit.

Only if the pit trap is actually under a breakaway or mechanical drop away floor panel. At which point, why are you adding in redundant illusions?

Because it sets up a situation where you can leave illusions scattered about over otherwise innocuous objects and leave the players guessing as to what is actually dangerous and what isn't. Is that fake pit really fake or is there a real pit under it like the one before? It makes the area you put illusions down almost a good as them being actual illusions. It's all about tricks.

Take for example the Illusionist puts two illusory pits between himself and the characters. They know both are fake thanks to True Sight. Quick character charges over the "open floor" and triggers the actual pit. That leaves one more "illusory pit". Is it also over a real pit? Possibly, what if the floor next to is the actual pit?

And that's easy enough to do with Hallucinatory Terrain.

Even though True Sight bust illusions most are also Will Save based so there is no guarantee that they will work any ways once interacted with. The whole point of Illusions are to confuse, distract, and when possible force choices the way the caster wants.

By deliberately making the players/characters question their environment the Illusionist starts taking back some ground on the action economy, as the players start using actions to "spot" dangers.

Also helps to throw in a mix of high and low Perception DC traps of various danger. Nothing smarts like spotting the killer block trap, only to side step the wrong way into an arrow trap tipped with poison, because the other direction had an illusory pit which you were sure you filed to notice. Player's can over meta-think sometimes.

====

Other dirty tricks

Would True Seeing see a Wall of Force? Does it see past it? Would it see past glass?

If it doesn't see past a pain of glass (being a solid object if transparent) what about the Illusion of a room beyond the glass when it's really a wall. Or an illusory wall behind the glass when none exists?


Assuming they're coming to him (his lair, tower, whatever), then allow me to add my vote for having him be true Lord and Master of his demense.

A few easy ways are, of course, Guards and Wards and a few Symbols, but an extra-fun one is to have the party have to cross a few demi-planes (created as per the spells) to get to the illusionist -- so basically, as far as they're concerned, each "room" they cross has totally different rules of physics, magic and time -- have each of them totally different, disorienting, and in some cases, require magic to deal with -- and, in the "final" room, the illusionist can be set up and ready -- basically right at home in the environment, while the party will be wondering how gravity is going to work here -- and may need to waste a few rounds making the magic to operate properly.

Beyond that, one of the most effective tricks is to layer illusions -- for instance, casting a high level (and thus, high save) illusion of a bridge over the chasm with lava with a low-level illusion concealing said bridge. Party disbelieves first layer, then walks off cliff. Fun for everyone! :)

Now, yes, True Seeing is going to be the biggest pain here, but (a) it's not a free spell, (b) can be defeated by Mind Blank and (c) it lasts minutes per level [and, of course, the illusionist gets to set the passage of time in the earlier areas, such that rapid-time could deplete the True Seeing spells] -- toss in mundane disguises, simulacra, shadow-based illusions and some real summons, and I think you'll have the party on their toes pretty well. Plus, it never hurts to be safely inside a Primsatic Sphere while casting all of these fun things to kill the party on the outside.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Head fake. True Sight lets you see through Illusions but if the Illusionist knows this then you can place illusions of pits over actual pit traps. PCs see Illusion of pit, True Sight see it's actually floor, walk over "floor", fall in real pit.

Only if the pit trap is actually under a breakaway or mechanical drop away floor panel. At which point, why are you adding in redundant illusions?

Because it sets up a situation where you can leave illusions scattered about over otherwise innocuous objects and leave the players guessing as to what is actually dangerous and what isn't.

True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.


Cartigan wrote:
True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.

True seeing does not reveal a mundane covered pit, which most high level pit traps are. Player's see illusion of open pit, see real floor, walk on real floor (actually a trap door), fall in real pit. 15 feat further down they see another illusory pit, see real floor. What do you think most Players will do at that point?

If they are smart one of them is going to spend a Standard Action looking for the trap. There, 2 actions out of 7 down for that turn. Spread that around for the cost of a single Hallucinatory Terrain for a room or several rooms and you get the players second guessing where to move and spending resources (actions, actual spells, time) getting caught in logic traps.

You know that I know that you know that I know, but do you really know? Step over the illusory trip wire, I dare you.


keep the distance. I know it seems a boxe suggestion or something, but read very well how TS works.

Use other schools as suggested. Dominated humanoids, conjured outsiders, animated dead.


Coridan wrote:

I'm planning for an upcoming battle between seven 15th level pcs vs 1 level 19 illusionist and I don't want him ganked. The biggest problem I'm thinking will be number of actions.

I have an idea for an advanced form of mirror image that creates duplicates perhaps 1 duplicate per 4 caster levels (his cl for illusions will be 20). These duplicates will be able to take actions normally though use the same spells as though they were the caster. I've already tried summons against them but they have a few dispel magics prepared.

Obviously a 9th level spell, and it being the last fight of the campaign not worried about players learning it.

Any other suggestions or ways to work this?

My money is on true seeing and the 7 players. You are one mind against 7. I don't see one of them not finding a way to negate whatever you come up with in a 1 vs 7 fight. They can also dispel this illusion which I am sure is something they will try if they don't go straight for true seeing.


Gorbacz wrote:
At level 15 somebody will have true seeing on. Actually, if they know that the guy is an illusionist, everybody will have it on.

7 hours ahead of me. 7 hours difference and 7 players. The OP should take this as a sign.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.

True seeing does not reveal a mundane covered pit, which most high level pit traps are. Player's see illusion of open pit, see real floor, walk on real floor (actually a trap door), fall in real pit. 15 feat further down they see another illusory pit, see real floor. What do you think most Players will do at that point?

If they are smart one of them is going to spend a Standard Action looking for the trap. There, 2 actions out of 7 down for that turn. Spread that around for the cost of a single Hallucinatory Terrain for a room or several rooms and you get the players second guessing where to move and spending resources (actions, actual spells, time) getting caught in logic traps.

You know that I know that you know that I know, but do you really know? Step over the illusory trip wire, I dare you.

Most traps have such terrible DC's that by that level the PC's won't fail the save, and even it if works once they will probably all be able to fly so the floor won't really matter.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


But if you want to stick with straight magic: Simulacrum creates a magical double of the Illusionist that can't be detected as such with True Seeing. (Though it does require a successful Disguise check -- go figure.) It's a real creature that has half the illusionist's levels and is utterly obedient to him.

Meanwhile, Project Image is a 7th level spell that creates an illusory duplicate of the wizard that can cast spells. True Seeing, or a successful Will Save, will reveal that it's a duplicate -- but this won't help the PCs much, as the duplicate can still cast spells! The real spellcaster is blind and deaf while he's running the duplicate, but he can be anywhere within the spell's range (medium = 100 + 10 per level = 290 feet, for this guy).

This is actually a fairly nasty spell -- the image is intangible and can't be hurt, but it can keep blasting the PCs for the duration of the spell. Which is 1 round/level.

Doug M.

The caster has to have line of effect to the spell though so hunting him down won't really be an issue.

PRD=You must maintain line of effect to the projected image at all times. If your line of effect is obstructed, the spell ends. If you use dimension door, teleport, plane shift, or a similar spell that breaks your line of effect, even momentarily, the spell ends.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.
True seeing does not reveal a mundane covered pit, which most high level pit traps are.

Ie, there is no need for an illusion of a pit trap over a pit trap.

Quote:
Player's see illusion of open pit, see real floor, walk on real floor (actually a trap door), fall in real pit.

Or the Rogue could just walk by and go "That's a trap" and step over it.

Quote:
What do you think most Players will do at that point?

The same thing they have been doing for 14 levels previous? "Hey, Rogue, what's that?"

Quote:
You know that I know that you know that I know, but do you really know? Step over the illusory trip wire, I dare you.

They won't see an illusory trip wire so there is no need to step over it. True Seeing. It isn't there. Your hallucinatory terrain to make pretend traps is completely irrelevant. Just put normal traps in there and stop wasting spells.


wraithstrike wrote:
Most traps have such terrible DC's that by that level the PC's won't fail the save, and even it if works once they will probably all be able to fly so the floor won't really matter.

I say this jokingly but that's rather mundane thinking for such a high level encounter. Artificially lower the ceiling with illusions then if you keep it purely mechanical use various kinds of trip wires, or for a bit of magic use various options for detecting creatures that are in a "space". So now you're flying through various kinds traps and faux traps.

Mix traps, pits (cover), falling or ascending blocks, swinging blades, spinning blade, arrow, rocks. Put down faux triggers or deliberately weak traps just to make it more confusing. Use actual magical traps as well.

Where did that pit come from? Pit Trap CR 6

Type mechanical; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 15

Effects

Trigger location; Reset manual

Effect 10-ft.-deep covered pit (1d6 falling damage); DC 30 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-square area)

Could be a jerk and boost both Perception and Ref save to 35 without changing CR. Possibly 34 if one extends the CR increase based on the trap table. Still CR 6 thing where everyone but a Rogue or high Ref & Dex character has a decent chance of actually falling into it. 1d6 damage isn't much of an issue but a 10 foot deep hole to climb out of is still an annoyance to any character.

Proximity or Visual triggers are only +1 CR. A +20 Ranged Touch Attack is also only +3.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.
True seeing does not reveal a mundane covered pit, which most high level pit traps are.
Ie, there is no need for an illusion of a pit trap over a pit trap.

And we have Cartigan here being intentionally obtuse, perhaps his greatest talent.

1. Small amount of real, mundane traps.
2. Large amount of illusionary traps, some placed over the mundane traps.
Result: paranoid PCs that spend a LOT more time crossing an area than they otherwise would.


One way to deal with True Seeing:

1) Have BBEG make extensive use of the Create Demiplane spells from UM to make a personal plane (henceforth HP = home plane).

2) Create a second demiplane (henceforth SP = second plane) and, using the Greater version of the spell, give it the Flowing Time (double) trait.

3) Create a portal connecting HP and SP.

4) Make SP a maze that has plenty of traps, diversions, illusions, and other things that will take time to deal with, before finally coming to another portal back to HP.

5) Through the construction of HP, anybody who wants to progress very far through it must first go through the portal to SP.

The amount of time the players will have to spend in SP will drain their resources. And when they leave SP, double the time has been used, which means any spells left over will have greatly lowered durations.

Players likely going to have multiple True Seeing spells prepared? Multiple trips through SP will be needed, with each portal taking them somewhere else in SP, of course.


Dorje Sylas wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Most traps have such terrible DC's that by that level the PC's won't fail the save, and even it if works once they will probably all be able to fly so the floor won't really matter.

I say this jokingly but that's rather mundane thinking for such a high level encounter. Artificially lower the ceiling with illusions then if you keep it purely mechanical use various kinds of trip wires, or for a bit of magic use various options for detecting creatures that are in a "space". So now you're flying through various kinds traps and faux traps.

High level play makes difficult encounters mundane which is why many GM's avoid it. If all the traps are there then the floor traps won't work because the players know they are in a trapped room with the bad guy. Even with traps on the ceiling it should not matter.

Most proximity traps are magic. Assuming the party is not using arcane sight they still get a chance to spot it. They just have to take the penalties for being farther away. Just Teleport or DD over to the bad guy if he insist on putting difficult traps between the two of you. Using phase door to come in through the ceiling or a wall might also work depending on how the dungeon is designed.

edit:Kill him with ranged attacks from across the room.

Silver Crusade

Plane Shift + Teleport = done
Realy at this level there is little to nothing the players can not buy pass if they want to.


Kthulhu wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
True Seeing sees through the illusory pit trap and sees... a pit trap. They aren't going to see floor where there isn't any.
True seeing does not reveal a mundane covered pit, which most high level pit traps are.
Ie, there is no need for an illusion of a pit trap over a pit trap.

And we have Cartigan here being intentionally obtuse, perhaps his greatest talent.

1. Small amount of real, mundane traps.
2. Large amount of illusionary traps, some placed over the mundane traps.
Result: paranoid PCs that spend a LOT more time crossing an area than they otherwise would.

The PCs wouldn't see any fake traps with True Seeing.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
The PCs wouldn't see any fake traps with True Seeing.

It's a bit ridiculous to assume that the entire party has True Seeing.


Dosgamer wrote:

I was thinking Leadership feat as well for a 17th level whatever. Make it another caster type if you like. They can coordinate spells. Have the other be a diviner if you want to make sure you get the drop on the PC's.

I used to love to run Project Image casters way back when. It was one of my tricks of choice back in the day.

The trick to the encounter is to make it challenging while making it beatable, too, unless you have plans to run one-shot adventures later on. Then the "mysterious death" ending works well. The PC's get their victory, but it's not a complete victory in that they aren't certain of the villain in question is truly alive or dead. Good luck!

NO to leadership if the bfg has friends then he got friends no need to waste feat on that. You are the gm you want him to have mocks then he has them. If he has right hand man then that your choice as the gm. Do not waste feat on this. Or cheat PCs out exp by saying guy bob is his cohort all nobs are his follower. So exp cause they paid by the boss's feat .

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
The PCs wouldn't see any fake traps with True Seeing.
It's a bit ridiculous to assume that the entire party has True Seeing.

In a BBEG fight against an Illusionist? I wouldn't take chances, so yes.


Mind Blank = immune to divination spells. Combine with simulacrum minions making life more difficult with that really nasty caster-based teamwork feat. One scroll with a few mind blanks covers all of them. 2 rings of counterspelling loaded with greater dispel magic. Project image several times first. Spell turning 2 or 3 prepared.

To ratchet him up a serious notch solo, add exemplar template: +3 CR, max hp, KO threshold is respectable, +5 CL, +10 all ability scores, +10 movement modes, +50% oomf from his school abilities.

PC grade gear for 19th level is a must.

The simulacrums can provide a literal "meat shield" for the projected image. I agree with the notes above to make them burn resources without rest. Make them burn as many consumables as possible just to get to him. If they drop several disjunctions, that's the purpose of the projected image. Make sure he returns that particular favor in kind. Prismatic spells are especially effective once his simulacrums buy the farm.

Traps out the wazoo don't matter as far as being spotted - they matter as far as terrain control and channeling the heroes through his chosen "alley of death". Fastest a rogue can disarm a DC 25+ trap is 1d4 rounds if memory serves. Those are rounds spent dealing with the battlefield control that are not spent stabbing his cannon fodder.

Low-level goons can field a very respectable attack bonus when that's what they're needed to do. (Hitting PCs and making them bleed.)

A 17th level cohort for the BBEG against the 7 samurai (as it were) is almost a must. Almost - a bevy of 13th level mind-blanked barbarians can dish out a lot of pain in a hurry, especially with arcane fire support from the simulacrums.

Simulacrums need just enough defensive spells to soak counterfire by the party, target items with dispels and true strike-guided enervation volleys (post disjunction) or volleys of area dispels) to whittle away the heroes' numbers. Arcane sight will let them target abjuration auras in a hurry once they're in close enough.

If your BBEG has cranked up his UMD, kit him out with a strand or two of prayer beads and a dose or two of incense of meditation. Resulting CL 28th and free maximized spells = arcane mayhem, for example: time stop and spell turning. Let alone a plethora of other spells ....

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