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Have Barbarians been bypassed by the growth of the game? I believe that Barbarian high level class defining abilities have been surpassed by the new Pathfinder books...
Mighty Rage level 20 Barb ability easily matched by Fighter Gloves of Dueling [besides some neat CMD mods these provide plus one to hit and damage] Furious weapons grant only a plus 2 enhancement bonus which caps out at 5, climbing and swimming penalties for one-handed actions are??? High level fighters will be glad to have the Gloves as an alternative way to raise "/to hit/damage" than weapon enhancement.
Tireless Rage the class capstone ability? is matched by taking one level of Oracle[lame] with the Metal mystery [Dance of Blades] allowing the movement penalty to be eliminated...
A 12Barb/1Oracle/7Fighter[weapon master] will act in all ways as a higher level Barb. Some damage will be lost on level based rage powers , but selection:eg Clear Mind,Unexpected Strike,Mighty Strike will alllow avoidance of many penalties. Fighter feats can be used to provide additional Rage Powers.12 level Barb is chosen as being a "break point" for many rage powers and DR of Inv Barbs.
Boasting Taunt?? or Antagonize feat?
I guess the thesis is that the high level Barb abilities are achieved by multiclassing and this seems to be outside the design intent of Pathfinder rewarding single-classing.Maybe Ultimate Combat will bring some fixes, but Barbs still have a low feat count, so these would likely have to be in the form of Magic or?
ps A prediction...UC will have a new Barb feat "Raging ?????" granting plus 1 or 2 to strength while enraged!
Maybe Ultimate Combat will bring some fixes, but Barbs still have a low feat count,
so these would likely have to be in the form of Magic or?
OR... high level Rage Powers? Will you buy UC for me for thinking of that one?
...I also wouldn`t be at all surprised to see some item boosting effective Barb level (just like Robes of Arcane Heritage or Monk`s Robes), letting Barbs get the Capstone Tireless Rage and Mighty Rage earlier, along with boosting level dependent abilties.Breaker (1/2 level to Sunder dmg, +1/3 levels to Improvised/Broken Weapon dmg with no penalties mean this guy does TONS of damage at high levels... and those stack BTW)
Pugilist (picks up another insight bonus to another maneuver CMB/CMD every 3 levels)
Invulnerable Rager (DR=1/2 level, Elemental Resistance +1/3 levels)
Mounted Fury (Animal Companion progresses based on Class Levels)
Savage Barbarian (+1 Dodge AC & Fear Saves / 6 levels, +1 Nat. Armor AC / 3 levels)
Superstitious Archetypes (+1 Init & AC during Surprise / 3 levels, At 13th level: scent, 16th level: blindsense, 19th level: blindsight)
...There`s enough benefit that sticking in Barbarian all the way can be beneficial...
I mean, sure some Multi-Classing will usually be effective, but pure Barbarian isn`t that bad at all.
EDIT: And the Human Fav. Class Bonus can be nice as a full Barbarian
if you take the Superstitious Power: +1/3 levels increase to Save Bonus vs. Spells.
I don't see a problem at all with barbarians, there are several ways that a single class barbarian can top the fighter oracle barbarian build you put forth, though that build too has it's strengths the main thing is you do not have to be a multi-class lamer to have an effective character, not to necesarily make it the very best option.
Comparison to a fighter multi-classing as a fighter and then putting forth it is better in combat shouldnt be surprising, fighters are designed to be the best baseline combatants
Fighter feats can be used to provide additional Rage Powers.12 level Barb is chosen as being a "break point" for many rage powers and DR of Inv Barbs.
Let me remind you, Extra Rage Power is not a combat feat, and thus cannot be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat.
Continuing to augment the Barbarian class prevents flanking by higher level rogues, because if he multiclasses elsewhere, someone will get more than 4 levels higher for the purpose of beating Improved Uncanny Dodge and sneak attacking.
Certain rage powers and archetype abilities scale up as a character gains barbarian levels.
I guess the thesis is that the high level Barb abilities are achieved by multiclassing and this seems to be outside the design intent of Pathfinder rewarding single-classing.Maybe Ultimate Combat will bring some fixes, but Barbs still have a low feat count, so these would likely have to be in the form of Magic or?
ps A prediction...UC will have a new Barb feat "Raging ?????" granting plus 1 or 2 to strength while enraged!
This much is true; too many other classes have taken over barbarian abilities or its equivalent; Oracle for one, Inquisitor with its rage domain for two, and probably some other I don't recall on the spot.
Maybe he could get more love with exclusive powers to make up for what the other classes stole from him.
at least rage is given only to specific archtypes of specific combat oriented divine casters
entire sorcerer bloodlines are given to everyone who burns a few feats.
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Right now the pure barbarian is the sickest overall physical damage dealing character in my game. Superstition, Come and Get Me, Damage Reduction, Huge Hit points, Reckless Abandon, Witchhunter, Strength Surge, Smasher, and Fiend Totem and Lesser Fiend Totem. The guy is a friggin unstoppable beast with no real weak saves.
Maybe your multiclass barbarian can beat him, I don't know. He's pretty darn sick as it is. I don't need the guy to be any tougher. He already makes the fighter look like a chump the majority of the time. He took the Step Up feat line to maximize Come and Get Me, a feat the fighter cannot touch.
Tireless Rage the class capstone ability? is matched by taking one level of Oracle[lame] with the Metal mystery [Dance of Blades] allowing the movement penalty to be eliminated.
That's most likely going to be fixed. They did the same with the Flame Oracle's Cinder Dance, after all.
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I'm playing a Mul barbarian in a Dark Sun game that we will return to in a few months. I quite enjoy playing him. I like being the old-style barbarian who hates magic (Superstition) and the Invulnerable Rager/Beast Totem/Come and Get Me supercharger build is pretty darn solid as well.
Fighter is still better. The Dueling Gloves thing does sort of irk me. They're an incredible item that is just too good for its price and only made for a single class? Fighters don't really need the help in that area.
I'd definitely like to see some way of getting more Str out of rage. It's the only thing that would balance them at this point with Fighters/Paladins/Rangers. If they had Greater Rage at 8th or 9th, Might Rage at 13th and some HOLY F%@! rage that gave +10 at level 20 for a capstone it might be alright.
Their whole shtick is "hulk smash" and get a ton of strength, and all the nifty powers that come with it. Well freaking everyone does the hulk smash bit better it seems-Dragon Disciples, Wizards (Giant Form+Bulls Strength+Transformation), Alchemists. Rawr! Make me mad!
There's still a lot of cool things to do with the class, but they're sadly the red-headed stepchild of the full BAB classes. I know they'll get some love in UC, but I bet you dollars to doughnuts Fighters will get more.
I'm playing a Mul barbarian in a Dark Sun game that we will return to in a few months. I quite enjoy playing him. I like being the old-style barbarian who hates magic (Superstition) and the Invulnerable Rager/Beast Totem/Come and Get Me supercharger build is pretty darn solid as well.
Fighter is still better. The Dueling Gloves thing does sort of irk me. They're an incredible item that is just too good for its price and only made for a single class? Fighters don't really need the help in that area.
I'd definitely like to see some way of getting more Str out of rage. It's the only thing that would balance them at this point with Fighters/Paladins/Rangers. If they had Greater Rage at 8th or 9th, Might Rage at 13th and some HOLY F&#$ rage that gave +10 at level 20 for a capstone it might be alright.
Their whole shtick is "hulk smash" and get a ton of strength, and all the nifty powers that come with it. Well freaking everyone does the hulk smash bit better it seems-Dragon Disciples, Wizards (Giant Form+Bulls Strength+Transformation), Alchemists. Rawr! Make me mad!
There's still a lot of cool things to do with the class, but they're sadly the red-headed stepchild of the full BAB classes. I know they'll get some love in UC, but I bet you dollars to doughnuts Fighters will get more.
I agree with this post, specifically because of the character I'm playing now. The build plan is 2 Barb / 1 Sorc / 2 Barb / 10 Dragon Disciple / 5 Barb while picking up the Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage feats to get the Abyssal Bloodline strength bonus. Having calc'd some things out, it's reasonable to assume that I can hit 48 or 50 strength on occasion with a combination of buffs. If I slapped 1 level of Alchemist in there, I could go higher...
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I'm playing a Mul barbarian in a Dark Sun game that we will return to in a few months. I quite enjoy playing him. I like being the old-style barbarian who hates magic (Superstition) and the Invulnerable Rager/Beast Totem/Come and Get Me supercharger build is pretty darn solid as well.
Fighter is still better. The Dueling Gloves thing does sort of irk me. They're an incredible item that is just too good for its price and only made for a single class? Fighters don't really need the help in that area.
I'd definitely like to see some way of getting more Str out of rage. It's the only thing that would balance them at this point with Fighters/Paladins/Rangers. If they had Greater Rage at 8th or 9th, Might Rage at 13th and some HOLY F%!+ rage that gave +10 at level 20 for a capstone it might be alright.
Their whole shtick is "hulk smash" and get a ton of strength, and all the nifty powers that come with it. Well freaking everyone does the hulk smash bit better it seems-Dragon Disciples, Wizards (Giant Form+Bulls Strength+Transformation), Alchemists. Rawr! Make me mad!
There's still a lot of cool things to do with the class, but they're sadly the red-headed stepchild of the full BAB classes. I know they'll get some love in UC, but I bet you dollars to doughnuts Fighters will get more.
I think UC will give them ways to recharge their rage powers like the other new classes will. Making the barbarian into more of the BoS style might be what the class is moving towards.
I think barbarians' need to have their path defined a bit better. It seems like monks are a tad better at combat maneuvers, and fighters are king of full attack DPR, so barbarians should excel at something. I think mobile attacks, as pounce is in their arsenal now.
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Right now the pure barbarian is the sickest overall physical damage dealing character in my game. Superstition, Come and Get Me, Damage Reduction, Huge Hit points, Reckless Abandon, Witchhunter, Strength Surge, Smasher, and Fiend Totem and Lesser Fiend Totem. The guy is a friggin unstoppable beast with no real weak saves.
Maybe your multiclass barbarian can beat him, I don't know. He's pretty darn sick as it is. I don't need the guy to be any tougher. He already makes the fighter look like a chump the majority of the time. He took the Step Up feat line to maximize Come and Get Me, a feat the fighter cannot touch.
+1.
You listed one of (IMHO) best build of barbarian, almost identical to the one used by a player of mine.
IMHO barbarians are better than fighter because have, at high levels, better defenses versus magic. And pounce + CaGM is SICK.
I really can't stop laughing when I read about fighter being king of the combat. this ignore the fact that the DPR drop of the round is a single will save away.
The same with maneuvers. "Monk should be better" "no fighter is the BESTST EVARR" ignore what can be done with Strenght Surge. the same rage power is great defensively, so in the very moment a charging fighter is tripped or grappled or whatever, the barbarian shouts "CROMM" and goes through it.
Please note that I LOVE barbarians as they are. Simply put, fighters should have some defense or condition removing ability.
Right now the pure barbarian is the sickest overall physical damage dealing character in my game. Superstition, Come and Get Me, Damage Reduction, Huge Hit points, Reckless Abandon, Witchhunter, Strength Surge, Smasher, and Fiend Totem and Lesser Fiend Totem. The guy is a friggin unstoppable beast with no real weak saves.
Maybe your multiclass barbarian can beat him, I don't know. He's pretty darn sick as it is. I don't need the guy to be any tougher. He already makes the fighter look like a chump the majority of the time. He took the Step Up feat line to maximize Come and Get Me, a feat the fighter cannot touch.
+1.
You listed one of (IMHO) best build of barbarian, almost identical to the one used by a player of mine.
IMHO barbarians are better than fighter because have, at high levels, better defenses versus magic. And pounce + CaGM is SICK.
I really can't stop laughing when I read about fighter being king of the combat. this ignore the fact that the DPR drop of the round is a single will save away.
The same with maneuvers. "Monk should be better" "no fighter is the BESTST EVARR" ignore what can be done with Strenght Surge. the same rage power is great defensively, so in the very moment a charging fighter is tripped or grappled or whatever, the barbarian shouts "CROMM" and goes through it.
Please note that I LOVE barbarians as they are. Simply put, fighters should have some defense or condition removing ability.
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"Conan, what's the best in life?"
"Outdamage the Fighter, have better saves vs spells than the Paladin, have more skill point than both, out-maneuver and being better with your fists than the Monk, and see people still considering you the weakest melee class".
Good one, Kai...
Anyhow, I think people are getting side-tracked from the OP`s point,
which WASN`T that he thought Barbarian was horrible, but that he thought after you have 12 levels of it, you can take other Classes and not lose anything for it.
That has SOME truth, since there`s only ONE Rage Power with a level Pre-Req above 12th (and it isn`t that great), but as demonstrated above, there ARE ton`s of Class Abilities that scale / improve with levels above 12th whether you go vanilla Barbarian or Archetype, not to mention level-scaling Rage Powers which get more powerful... High levels are in fact when Powers like Rolling Dodge start to look attractive, getting +4 Dodge AC is actually relevant (and pretty much counters any Fighter AC advantage from Armor Training, not to mention Barbs can ALSO get +4 or +5 Natural Armor from Beast Totem on top of that). Question: Why does Savage Barbarian only gain Natural Armor bonus when not wearing Armor? OK, a Dodge Bonus to AC and whatnot makes sense, but does their skin really get less tough when they wear armor? That limitation seems a bit too ham-handed in gamism, to me.
DPR-wise, Breaker Archetype will absolutely destroy anything, and Come and Get Me means instead of +W/+X/+Y/+Z attacks, you will get +W/+X/+Y/+Z +W/+W/+W/+W if and when you are attacked, so any Fighter trying to go toe-to-toe is going to be in a bunch of pain if they try and show off their `superior DPR due to Wpn Training`.
I would agree that the ultimate Capstones for Barbarian are underwhelming compared to Fighter, but I think that`s OK, Capstones don`t really need to be `OMG-UBER` as much as just being cool and powerful, and I think the Barbarian more or less has a continual development of great abilities from 1-20. In all honesty, I think if/when Paizo ever looks at `Epic Levels`, they will seriously want to tone down/ modify/ replace some of the `insta kill` Capstones out there (replacing with other cool, powerful stuff) since they basically remove alot of variability from the game... Dealing with `Rocket tag` at high levels will be the challenge for developing Epic Level rules, and insta-kill Capstones don`t help IMHO.
Please note that I LOVE barbarians as they are. Simply put, fighters should have some defense or condition removing ability.
I agree, I was disappointed that APG basically was just micro-focused on `Combat Style` Archetypes (including ones like 2Handed and Archer that didn`t need any extra help/alteration from the norm IMHO), ignoring that Bravery is a Fighter Class Feature, which could very plausibly be expanded to grant further defensive resistances, not to mention offering a `Skillful Fighter` variant as seen in Paizo`s own 3.5 Campaign Setting (but hopefully tweaked and updated for PRPG).
I apologize for the partial sidetracking... I say partial because accidentally (:P) I bringed an argument: at least for my experience, strenght surge is invaluable vs big monsters. and since is based on barbarian levels...
IMHO, the barbarian real casptone is at level 17. A lot of 1/rage powers become 1/round. Awesome.
A fellow poster proposed a feat for the educated fighter (fighter level 1 only - you get 4 skills/level instead of 2). I hope they heard them for UC. I think I'll homebrew it anyway for the imperial guard officers of my setting.
EDIT, Fighter OT:
My ideal defenses for fighter would be:
- A better written Iron Heart Surge (feat, needs X fighter level, and more than 10. Call it "The Battle Calls", or something)
- A feat making you able to parry a ray spell with your weapon, or reflect, somethin like the mythic Paerseus, any spell to the caster with the shield. In a future incarnation of the game, I would make these class features, but as now...
IMHO, the barbarian real casptone is at level 17. A lot of 1/rage powers become 1/round. Awesome.
Wow I never noticed that before....that made me look at all the rage powers in a new way. That is really quite awesome. I'm tempted to change my barbarian build up to work in Flesh Wound, Knockdown, Unexpected Strike, Surprise accuracy and Mighty swing. Having those available once per round on top of Strength Surge would be amazing, even at level 17.
Wow I never noticed that before....that made me look at all the rage powers in a new way. That is really quite awesome. I'm tempted to change my barbarian build up to work in Flesh Wound, Knockdown, Unexpected Strike, Surprise accuracy and Mighty swing. Having those available once per round on top of Strength Surge would be amazing, even at level 17.IMHO, the barbarian real casptone is at level 17. A lot of 1/rage powers become 1/round. Awesome.
hurry, before is ragenerfed! :D
or seeing above take oracle to get all that at level 9. Even if Dance of Blades is fixed there is some nice mechanical advantage in fatigue immunity and no armor penalty to speed...[and with fighter levels Heavy Armor Proficency]
Kinda seems like a nice 9th level capstone! [if they change dance of blades there is an oracle revelation that gives Weapon Focus and so would "fix" BAB loss.]
Some points:
1) hmmm regarding furious weapon letting you get in effect a possible +7 weapon enhancement...is that possible? I guess i need to look at Bane weapons for an answer?
2) regarding Combat feats not being able to be used to buy "extra rage power' True enough but it will still add to the feat pool, same effect in the end I think
3) The Spartan answer to CAGM: "Add a step to it", ie take Lunge and CAGM will not be a problem, assuming you have a weapon with reach equivalent to the Barbs
Everybody underestimates the Barbarian :-)
1) I personally know not a single DM that allows rage powers to work once per round at level 17, ruling that you can not switch rage on and off in the same round (which seems very sensible to me)
2) I agree somewhat that the savage barbarian's natural armor disappearing is a bit strange, but not really something I worry about, since I know it is a balancing factor rather than anything else, just dont wear armor and you wont have to worry about the wonkiness.
3) barbarian's extra ragepower feat, tends to give better benefits than feats making up for some of the fighter's superiority, yea it is a bit lame really but all the barbarians take extra ragepowers becoz they rock.
Remco, as for 1), when I first read the core, I assumed the the level 17 switch was intended because the barbarian capstone in is far less "sounding" compared to ther classes.
(to elaborate, I'm a GM and I allow it).
Jason Bulmahn himself basically confirmed that it`s legit to use 1-round Rages
(in combo with Fatigue immunity, allowing usage of 1/rage powers 1/round)
Otherwise is strictly against the RAW, you DO have the power to `spend` Rage Rounds in 1 Round incrments, meaning you CAN spend just 1 Round of Rage, and if you re-enter Rage again that`s obviously a different Rage... No different than if you DIDN`T have Fatigue Immunity and had waited 2 round for the Fatigue to wear off. There are actually other options for avoiding Fatigue, e.g. Oracle (as mentioned here), Human alternate racial (1/x day), allies or Famliars removing Fatigue from you, etc. The 17th level ability is just the baseline where ALL Barbs can flat ignore it without limits on usages/day.
NOTE: A good part of the Barbarian`s awesomeness is dependent on both their own normal combat actions AND defensive stuff including AoO`s. If you turn it off, and turn it on again next round, you are missing out on the defensive aspect (or vice versa, on the benefits to your own actions) Starting/ ending Rage are different actions thoug, and I hardly see why ending Rage should take alot of time, so you can at least Re-Enter Rage 1/round. Re-starting Rage TWICE a round (so you benefit both on-your-turn and off-your-turn, at the cost of 2x Rage Round usage) seems something reasonable to limit, since you`re using the SAME actions over and over, just like like it`s reasonable to limit how much you can speak each round (also a free action).
Right now the pure barbarian is the sickest overall physical damage dealing character in my game. Superstition, Come and Get Me, Damage Reduction, Huge Hit points, Reckless Abandon, Witchhunter, Strength Surge, Smasher, and Fiend Totem and Lesser Fiend Totem. The guy is a friggin unstoppable beast with no real weak saves.
Maybe your multiclass barbarian can beat him, I don't know. He's pretty darn sick as it is. I don't need the guy to be any tougher. He already makes the fighter look like a chump the majority of the time. He took the Step Up feat line to maximize Come and Get Me, a feat the fighter cannot touch.
+1.
You listed one of (IMHO) best build of barbarian, almost identical to the one used by a player of mine.
IMHO barbarians are better than fighter because have, at high levels, better defenses versus magic. And pounce + CaGM is SICK.
I really can't stop laughing when I read about fighter being king of the combat. this ignore the fact that the DPR drop of the round is a single will save away.
The same with maneuvers. "Monk should be better" "no fighter is the BESTST EVARR" ignore what can be done with Strenght Surge. the same rage power is great defensively, so in the very moment a charging fighter is tripped or grappled or whatever, the barbarian shouts "CROMM" and goes through it.
Please note that I LOVE barbarians as they are. Simply put, fighters should have some defense or condition removing ability.
I agree. Barbarians are much better than fighters, at least that particular build.
I have a min/maxed Half-orc Two-hander fighter in my group as well as the above Barbarian. The fighter has about a 1% chance of beating the barbarian. He took the Lunge feat to offset Come and Get Me, so the Barbarian took Step Up and Following Step to eliminate that tactic. Now the Fighter stands zero chance against him.
What do barbarians do best? They take damage, especially the invulnerable rager. If they dish damage as well as the fighter ever, that will make the fighter useless. They are much more powerful offensively than the paladin for all by BBEG fights when the Paladin uses smite. If the enemy doesn't happen to be evil, the paladin pales in comparsion to the barbarian for damage.
I read these threads and chuckle myself. The Fighter player seems to have grown less fond of his character because the barbarian outshines him so much. Much better saves, can take far more damage, and often dishes far more damage a round because of Come and Get Me than the fighter. Though the fighter does do more damage per hit.
The fighter was whacked out in one round by the Oni Ogre Mage Samurai. The Barbarian killed the samurai and the other barbarian with his 6 regular attacks (4 normal, 1 haste, and 1 horn) and his 5 Come and Get Me Attacks (3 dex, 1 for all classes, and 1 for rage power). The barbarian attacked 11 times to the fighters 5. There is no real contest between the fighter and barbarian. Barbarian is far superior to the fighter as an overall battle machine.
Jason Bulmahn himself basically confirmed that it`s legit to use 1-round Rages
(in combo with Fatigue immunity, allowing usage of 1/rage powers 1/round)
Otherwise is strictly against the RAW, you DO have the power to `spend` Rage Rounds in 1 Round incrments, meaning you CAN spend just 1 Round of Rage, and if you re-enter Rage again that`s obviously a different Rage... No different than if you DIDN`T have Fatigue Immunity and had waited 2 round for the Fatigue to wear off. There are actually other options for avoiding Fatigue, e.g. Oracle (as mentioned here), Human alternate racial (1/x day), allies or Famliars removing Fatigue from you, etc. The 17th level ability is just the baseline where ALL Barbs can flat ignore it without limits on usages/day.NOTE: A good part of the Barbarian`s awesomeness is dependent on both their own normal combat actions AND defensive stuff including AoO`s. If you turn it off, and turn it on again next round, you are missing out on the defensive aspect (or vice versa, on the benefits to your own actions) Starting/ ending Rage are different actions thoug, and I hardly see why ending Rage should take alot of time, so you can at least Re-Enter Rage 1/round. Re-starting Rage TWICE a round (so you benefit both on-your-turn and off-your-turn, at the cost of 2x Rage Round usage) seems something reasonable to limit, since you`re using the SAME actions over and over, just like like it`s reasonable to limit how much you can speak each round (also a free action).
I am not saying it isnt legit to use 1 round rages, what I dispute is what 1 round increments should be, you either use it that round or not.
The way I would play it is simply you rage 1 round, then next round you can stop raging or continue raging, if you stop raging you should not start it again 1 second later.. that is just extremely silly and gamist.At the very least I'd say you can not stop raging before the round has past, as to avoid a -2 penalty on ac for example, stopping for to rage 1 second and reboot rage in the same round is up for debate, I prefer not to play with such a clunky mechanic, not the least because I find it thematically silly, prone to abuse and/or lacking of flavor.
Frankly it is purely personal preference it might well be that it is what the devs meant to do.
Jason Bulmahn himself basically confirmed that it`s legit to use 1-round Rages
(in combo with Fatigue immunity, allowing usage of 1/rage powers 1/round)
Otherwise is strictly against the RAW, you DO have the power to `spend` Rage Rounds in 1 Round incrments, meaning you CAN spend just 1 Round of Rage, and if you re-enter Rage again that`s obviously a different Rage... No different than if you DIDN`T have Fatigue Immunity and had waited 2 round for the Fatigue to wear off. There are actually other options for avoiding Fatigue, e.g. Oracle (as mentioned here), Human alternate racial (1/x day), allies or Famliars removing Fatigue from you, etc. The 17th level ability is just the baseline where ALL Barbs can flat ignore it without limits on usages/day.NOTE: A good part of the Barbarian`s awesomeness is dependent on both their own normal combat actions AND defensive stuff including AoO`s. If you turn it off, and turn it on again next round, you are missing out on the defensive aspect (or vice versa, on the benefits to your own actions) Starting/ ending Rage are different actions thoug, and I hardly see why ending Rage should take alot of time, so you can at least Re-Enter Rage 1/round. Re-starting Rage TWICE a round (so you benefit both on-your-turn and off-your-turn, at the cost of 2x Rage Round usage) seems something reasonable to limit, since you`re using the SAME actions over and over, just like like it`s reasonable to limit how much you can speak each round (also a free action).
I am not saying it isnt legit to use 1 round rages, what I dispute is what 1 round increments should be, you either use it that round or not.
The way I would play it is simply you rage 1 round, then next round you can stop raging or continue raging, if you stop raging you should not start it again 1 second later.. that is just extremely silly and gamist.At the very least I'd say you can not stop raging before the round has past, as to avoid a -2 penalty on ac for example, stopping for to...
I was little cheesed by this tactic at first as well. The rage, halt rage, and use once per rage rage powers again. But after analyzing it, it really isn't that good except in theory. In actual use, it's very dangerous.
For example, Tireless Rage does not make you immune to not being able to rage while fatigued. So if a barbarian chooses to come out of rage, an enemy can ready an action even for that split instance to cast Waves of Fatigue and ruin the barbarians rage.
If the barbarian is low on hit points, and they often are at high levels, they come out of rage and they die or are dangerously low on hit points.
Let the barbarian pop in and out of rage. It's a very dangerous thing to do, very dangerous. And enemies can key on such a thing. It's very easy to see a barbarian drop out of rage and ready actions are made for people who do such things. The ready action goes off as soon as the triggering action happens. So the barbarian player can't say "I go out of rage as a free action at the start of my turn, and then back in as a swift action" before the ready action goes off. The ready action trumps all and will hit as soon as they leave the rage for that split instant.
So let the barbarian player use his gamist tactic and you teach him the danger of the tactic against intelligent enemies. Casters especially will know the best time to cast spells on a barbarian is when he drops out of rage for that instant.
Players salivate on the boards over that tactic. I even have a player who plans on using it. So far he hasn't really been able to do it. Main reason is the guys he fights deal enough damage where it is extremely dangerous for him to use the tactic. I've been waiting for him to try it. Casters will most assuredly time their spells for that split second he drops all his save bonuses to hit him with spells.
Sounds like an endorsement of its power rather than a dismissal. The Barbarian is making the enemies focus upon him. Good. The readied action tactic will certainly take him by surprise. Once. Thereafter it becomes a guessing game between the player and DM. Another spellcaster readied an action again? Well this time I won't come out of rage... or maybe I will, who knows, care to waste a turn on it? Either way, the spellcaster is focussing his attention on the high saves, high hp, armour wearing, DR having barbarian and not his deadly but squishy allies. He is doing his job even better.
Sounds like an endorsement of its power rather than a dismissal. The Barbarian is making the enemies focus upon him. Good. The readied action tactic will certainly take him by surprise. Once. Thereafter it becomes a guessing game between the player and DM. Another spellcaster readied an action again? Well this time I won't come out of rage... or maybe I will, who knows, care to waste a turn on it? Either way, the spellcaster is focussing his attention on the high saves, high hp, armour wearing, DR having barbarian and not his deadly but squishy allies. He is doing his job even better.
That's full of wisdom for a big stupid fighter!
That's full of wisdom for a big stupid fighter!
Haha, too true.
Really, the Pathfinder Barbarian has truly impressed me as a martial class. It is packed full of flavour and power, without having to rely on spells, or stepping on any other classes toes. Paizo did really well with its APG changes, and I can't wait to see what is in store for Barbarians in Ultimate Combat.
Really Barb =/= Fighter.
Besides CAGM, which we get around by allowing Rolibar's Gambit, they are just different 'cool' flavors.
Both Kick A$$!!
Sounds like an endorsement of its power rather than a dismissal. The Barbarian is making the enemies focus upon him. Good. The readied action tactic will certainly take him by surprise. Once. Thereafter it becomes a guessing game between the player and DM. Another spellcaster readied an action again? Well this time I won't come out of rage... or maybe I will, who knows, care to waste a turn on it? Either way, the spellcaster is focussing his attention on the high saves, high hp, armour wearing, DR having barbarian and not his deadly but squishy allies. He is doing his job even better.
Not really. The caster is doing his normal thing. The barbarian drops out of rage once. The caster notes it. He readies for it next time. The barbarian does it again, Waves of Fatigue cast. He can't rage unless he has Roused Anger. And he can't come out of rage or he is exhausted, which Tireless Rage doesn't help. That tactic is over.
Or he gets hit by powerful Will save spell while his Superstition and Indomitable Will are down. Barbarian done as well.
Guessing game? More like game over. Battles don't last very long. All it takes is for the barbarian to fail one time and he is in a world of hurt since all his powers come from raging.
Very few players want to take that chance once you hammer them once. It's always nice to see the barbarian develop a real love of that tactic while fighting mook monsters. Then he steps up against the BBEG and find out that guy's well prepared and well researched on barbarian tactics.
I don't know if you have much experience with the high level game. But I have a great deal. If barbarians try that tactic, they will get hammered. Casters will gladly set up the spells they plan to smash everyone keyed on the barbarian dropping out of rage. Such as hitting him with a Mage's Disjunction while he is not raging. Watching him making all those nice will saves without any of his rage bonuses for his items.
Or you can go the simple route, which is make the guy the barbarian is going toe to toe with hit like a truck. So much damage the barbarian dropping out of rage is not feasible. Because damage is king in Pathfinder and 300 plus hit points is fairly meaningless.
So many ways to smash that tactic. That's why I have zero problem with it.
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Hit Like a Truck Barbarian:
Build: Invulnerable Rager 20
Race: Human (Heart of the fields- 1/day ignore fatigue or exhaustion)
Alignment: I kick a$$
Theme- I Kick a$$
Ability Scores:
STR 17+2 for Human (3 POINTS TO STR 22)
The Rest: WHO Cares!!!
Favored Class:
Human= 4 skill points per level, Favored Bonus: 11 to skills or HP, 9 to Superstition
2 traits- Bithmark, Missing Sibling (sense motive and diplomacy are class skills)
Feats/Special
Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
Extreme Endurance, Stepup
DR2/-, Reckless Abandon
Extra Rage Power: Knockdown
DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem
Combat Reflexes
DR4/-, Superstition
Cold Resist2, Extra Rage Power: Knockback
DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
Greater Rage Dazing Assault
Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
Extra Rage Power: Moment of Clarity
14 DR7/-, Witchhunter
Cold Resist4, Extra Rage Power: Clearmind
DR8/-, Guarded life
Tireless Rage, Surprise Accuracy
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Unexpected Strike
Mighty Swing
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for what Ails you.
Your attack at 20 is 20 +4(Mighty Rage) +5(enhancement)+ 3(belt of physical perfection) +6(Reckless Abandon)+6(str)+2(Furious Weapon)- 6(PA)= 40/35/30/25
PA/Hasted 41/41/36/31/26
PA/Dazing Assault/Haste 36/36/31/26/21
PA/Dazing Assault/Flanking 40/40/35/30/25
Damage with +5 Furious, Sonic, Menacing, Keen, Ghost Touch Greatsword is 2d6 +19(1.5 x str w/belt, Mighty Rage)+18(PA)+ +5(enhancement)+1d6(sonic)+ 2(Furious)= av 54 per hit
60 vs Casters
DPR Hasted (4)= 216 (270 with surprise accuracy)
DPR Hasted vs Caster (4)= 240 (300 with surprise accuracy)
Someone can cruch these a bit better, the first 2 are auto hit, the 3rd is auto (normal) or on a 3 or better (if dazing) and the 4th hits on a 7 or better if dazing.
Dazing Assault- This is an auto hit on a Standard action attack so have it and PA on. 3 Strikes will still hit if you full attack with it.
On higher AC opponents full attack with it on (landing 3 or 4 hits), then use Come and Get me to force a save while you interrupt their attack on you. Each AOO always hits anyway.
Flanking guarantees 4 hits with 60% chance of a 5th.
Tactics- Pounce lets you full attack at the end of a move. This means you are behind a Full attacking Fighter but will outdamage any fighter variant (except Dervishes, Mobile Fighters), rogue or ranger when you charge.
Knockback lets you bull rush in place of a melee attack, Knockdown trips.
Use it on your worst iterative (which has a 60% chance to hit) to push them back (10ft denies them full attack) then pounce again.
CAGM is very powerful, canny fighters may try to fight you from reach to deny the AOO’s. This is a valid tactic, so move up (Pounce) and try to Daze. If they fail they can’t move away. If they succeed, Stepup so you can still use CAGM.
Also surprise accuracy or strength surge can ensure a maneuver or extra attack hits.
After 17 Surprise Accuracy, Mighty Swing, Unexpected Strike and Strength Surge can be used every round, by dropping and restarting rage.
Not really. The caster is doing his normal thing. The barbarian drops out of rage once. The caster notes it. He readies for it next time. The barbarian does it again, Waves of Fatigue cast. He can't rage unless he has Roused Anger. And he can't come out of rage or he is exhausted, which Tireless Rage doesn't help. That tactic is over.
It seems to me like it would be DM's call whether there are any outward signs to note when the transition happens. Some players will want to RP this as froth-from-the-mouth screaming (dare I use the example - Salvatore's battlerager dwarves), but others will opt for the much more subdued terrible glint in the eyes (the illustrious Conan of Cimmeria). Both tropes seem well represented in existing fantasy, but one would seem to allow your tactic and the other would not. And then one type of player is being punished for a roleplaying decision - granted, a lot of RP decisions should have consequences, but the difference here is trivial.
The readied action cue needs to be observable. Noticing a barbarian momentarily leap-frogging rage rounds? I dunno. It would be like nailing a caster in the middle of a quickened spell with no verbal or somatic components. How do you know when it's happening until the spell goes off? And by then it's too late.
I agree with you on the "too much damage to safely drop out of rage" angle, though. Can't really interpret that any other way. But I'm curious to see what others think on the previous tactic.
And if enemy casters can key on the rage drop the flip side will be superstious Barbs getting Healed by their party's Clerics who are keying on the same thing...
Though CAGM at level 12 kinda supports my original thesis! As well an Oracle dip would have given you immunity to fatigue :) !!
Check my last post up-thread, the part after ¨NOTE:¨ specifically covers that.
I wouldn`t call that tactic `cheesy`, rather it would be `how the rules are supposed to work`. It seems like the people who think it is cheesy are the ones who have been playing PRPG clueless that the tactic is clearly allowed by the rules, and thus their expectations of PRPG Rage (which never existed before PRPG, and has worked the exact same way since the 1st printing) are centered on a false `normalcy`... It isn`t really any different than Fighters progressively being able to Tumble and maneuver in heavier armors as they level up. The 17th level ability makes the tactic routinely usable with no action or other costs, but at earlier levels there are other options to achieve similar things at least on a limited basis (Human variant Racial ability: Heart of Fields allows 1/day Fatigue immunity for one)
Rage cycling TWICE per round is where it becomes questionable if the rules allow it, and indeed would have a higher cost, since you pay the Rage Round when you enter Rage (and when continuing it), so entering 2/round uses 2 Rage Rounds per round. The `normal` tactic still only pays 1 Rage Round / Round, but is missing out on half of the round (on/off your turn) so you don`t get as much out of each Round.
No, not clueless, just think it is lame and cheesy, wether it is supposed to work like that or not, I do not contest it is supposed to work like that just saying I will never play or allow it to be played like that. Too much metagamy flavor (or lack of flavor) to me, sure you can counter it by being even more cheesy. There ought to be more elegant ways to achieve a similar result.
I'm playing a Barb/Oracle right now, and would love to see some of these builds. Any chance of someone linking to a write up of a Solid "pure barb", and a example of the Barb/Oracle....Fighter one ? I'd be deeply appreciative. Love seeing examples of different avenues to take my characters.
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It seems to me like it would be DM's call whether there are any outward signs to note when the transition happens. Some players will want to RP this as froth-from-the-mouth screaming (dare I use the example - Salvatore's battlerager dwarves), but others will opt for the much more subdued terrible glint in the eyes (the illustrious Conan of Cimmeria). Both tropes seem well represented in existing fantasy, but one would seem to allow your tactic and the other would not. And then one type of player is being punished for a roleplaying decision - granted, a lot of RP decisions should have consequences, but the difference here is trivial.
I have serious doubt about the roleplaying decision of someone switching his rage on/off at will.
Mechanically feasible by RAW? Sure
RP acceptable? No way.
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It seems to me like it would be DM's call whether there are any outward signs to note when the transition happens. Some players will want to RP this as froth-from-the-mouth screaming (dare I use the example - Salvatore's battlerager dwarves), but others will opt for the much more subdued terrible glint in the eyes (the illustrious Conan of Cimmeria). Both tropes seem well represented in existing fantasy, but one would seem to allow your tactic and the other would not. And then one type of player is being punished for a roleplaying decision - granted, a lot of RP decisions should have consequences, but the difference here is trivial.
I have serious doubt about the roleplaying decision of someone switching his rage on/off at will.
Mechanically feasible by RAW? Sure
RP acceptable? No way.
Where is your line of abuse then? Because PF clearly states it's possible, or else they wouldn't have written it that way? If PF says it's okay, it's probably not broken. Because they really don't allow broken stuff to creep in, especially from Core. APG and the 2 new Ultimates books don't have the benefit for 10 years of 3.5 experience.
You can fluff it easily by saying the barbarian is so focused, that he can go beyond his previous limitations. People fluff all sorts of stuff already. Give the class what it can do, especially when Paizo themselves says it's okay. And I definitely believe that Paizo isn't good at balance, but this isn't game breaking.
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I simply don't like the idea of a guy with a big on/off switch on his back.
As I haven't jet had a player playing a barbarian in Pathfinder there hasn't been the need to decide how it will work in my campaign.
Probably I will allow him to activate the "once for rage" powers more than once for each rage (after he get to level 17th) at the expense of a extra rage round without leaving the rage. The end effect will be almost identical, even a little beneficial for the barbarian, but it will not be a "Now rage is off, now it is on" thing.
What's the RP justification for why I can reroll one will save a rage, but not two? There are certain balance things, that exist solely for balance, and if you think too much about them in a simulation/roleplay type way they don't make sense, IE the apprentice who buys some powdered diamond at a discount.
I have serious doubt about the roleplaying decision of someone switching his rage on/off at will.
Mechanically feasible by RAW? Sure
RP acceptable? No way.
On the surface I would agree that the cheesiest part of this tactic is its RP angle, not necessarily the crunch aspect. By level 17 when the wizard is stopping time, is it a big deal to be able for the barbarian to get more use out of his 1/rage powers? Anyway, since it's not written anywhere that there is an observable effect of rage, it defaults to being player's choice in my mind, and therefore an RP call - I only said what I said before to make the premise for my argument against readying an action to occur during a potentially un-observable event.
However, after thinking about it I see ways to easily rationalize it from the RP angle. Rage in its current incarnation isn't intended to be blind fury, since you can drop out of it mid-combat if you realize it's an unsound tactic. And is it required that raging makes you more angry, or that dropping out of rage makes you somehow less? Put another way, if a barbarian sees a friend murdered, does he get angrier than if he had trained as a fighter instead? I don't think so. The important facet here isn't "how angry you are" but instead "how effectively you harness your anger for combat prowess." The 17th-level barbarian is so adept at drawing strength from his rage that he can get the mechanical benefit we're talking about - getting more or less angry at the drop of a hat isn't required.
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Ok. Let me get this straight.
Round 1: enter rage, do stuff
Round 2: Turn off rage, Turn on rage, do stuff.
Round 3: Turn off rage, turn on rage, do stuff.I am still only cycling my rage once per turn but I my rage is on the whole round and I get all my offensive and defensive goodies.
I would not allow this, because you are not really "turning off" your rage. At no point is your defense lowered. What I *would* allow is this:
Round 1: Enter rage, do stuff, turn off rage.
Round 2: Turn on rage, do stuff, turn off rage.
Round 3: Turn on rage, do stuff, turn off rage.
Then, for the purposes of reacting to attacks or making attacks of opportunity and the like (stuff happening not during your action), you are actually not raging. Flicking it off and then back on again in the same round makes no sense. You're just continuing the same rage in that case.
With this pattern, though, I could see it as the barbarian just really exerting himself every time he acts, while taking a "breather" as he goes on the defensive (when he is not acting).
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I simply don't like the idea of a guy with a big on/off switch on his back.
As I haven't jet had a player playing a barbarian in Pathfinder there hasn't been the need to decide how it will work in my campaign.
Probably I will allow him to activate the "once for rage" powers more than once for each rage (after he get to level 17th) at the expense of a extra rage round without leaving the rage. The end effect will be almost identical, even a little beneficial for the barbarian, but it will not be a "Now rage is off, now it is on" thing.
As long as you realize you'll be hurting the barbarian from a mechanical standpoint. If you run a lot long combats, those lost rounds will start meaning something. And then it might invite an unwelcome debate why the DM choose to overrule the book, especially if this is not brought up before the character is made.
I hate surprise house rules, because often times they are direct bad reactions to something that was previously not realized, but perfectly legal. Like Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper in 3.5