I found Humans of Golarion rather disappointing


Pathfinder Player Companion


I was really looking forward to Humans of Golarion. There are so many human ethnic groups that it was to cover, all of which are interesting to me. While they are generally based upon real-world cultures as a starting point, each has been given a fantasy tune-up to make them a special part of the gaming world.

The Humans of Golarion never really got into detailing much about these groups. What we get is a page on each of them that is pretty much just rehash of what was in both the Inner Sea World Guide and/or the older Campaign Setting. No new info on ethnic holidays, customs, or much of anything other than the migration map (which is nicely done). Too bad there's nothing covering blending of the ethnic groups and details of where such mixing is most common.

There are a few interesting bits to be found, but all of them seem to me to be sidenotes. Details on Aroden (interesting), common origins for exotic weapons (not really my thing), and a few human racial spells (nothing really to speak of here). Finally we have more Traits. Not sure if these are new or reprints (some seem very familiar).

The cover art was awesome, but other than the map and details on Aroden, I just don't find Humans of Golarion to be a worthwhile purchase.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

I believe there were two traits for each culture, and they listed traits from other books as well.

Dark Archive

HappyDaze wrote:

I was really looking forward to Humans of Golarion. There are so many human ethnic groups that it was to cover, all of which are interesting to me. While they are generally based upon real-world cultures as a starting point, each has been given a fantasy tune-up to make them a special part of the gaming world.

The Humans of Golarion never really got into detailing much about these groups. What we get is a page on each of them that is pretty much just rehash of what was in both the Inner Sea World Guide and/or the older Campaign Setting. No new info on ethnic holidays, customs, or much of anything other than the migration map (which is nicely done). Too bad there's nothing covering blending of the ethnic groups and details of where such mixing is most common.

There are a few interesting bits to be found, but all of them seem to me to be sidenotes. Details on Aroden (interesting), common origins for exotic weapons (not really my thing), and a few human racial spells (nothing really to speak of here). Finally we have more Traits. Not sure if these are new or reprints (some seem very familiar).

The cover art was awesome, but other than the map and details on Aroden, I just don't find Humans of Golarion to be a worthwhile purchase.

+1

It seemed like pretty much all of the book was reprinted materials except the Aroden info and the spells.


Agreed, I thought Golarion is a human-centric world, considering this and Advanced Race Guide, all the races are equally represented.


Knoq Nixoy wrote:
Agreed, I thought Golarion is a human-centric world, considering this and Advanced Race Guide, all the races are equally represented.

Golarion is human-centric, and that's part of why this product suffers. When Humans of Golarion gives you the history of humans, it's almost the exact same as rereading the general history from the Inner Sea World Guide. When the other racial products have given us history, it's usually a new view that focuses on the race presented.

I find it really frustrating to see that a sidebar takes the time to point out that Golarion humans are fantasy world humans and are NOT entirely like real world humans only for the book to then fail to show any relevant differences.


it's a book for players about humans. so were I a player only I could have the inner sea primer and this to get all the information I need. I plan to hand it out for players to read as it has all the info I'n one spot I'n a lighter volume.


Mojorat wrote:
it's a book for players about humans. so were I a player only I could have the inner sea primer and this to get all the information I need. I plan to hand it out for players to read as it has all the info I'n one spot I'n a lighter volume.

+1

I Don't allow my players to read the Inner Sea World Guide as it contains spoilers.

Contributor

Troubled_child wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
it's a book for players about humans. so were I a player only I could have the inner sea primer and this to get all the information I need. I plan to hand it out for players to read as it has all the info I'n one spot I'n a lighter volume.

+1

I Don't allow my players to read the Inner Sea World Guide as it contains spoilers.

Exactly.


Thinking that a player isn't going to read a setting book is silly. Settings can make or break a purchase and anyone who expects to be involved in a game is a pre-fabricated world is likely to buy, or at least read through, the setting. Many gamers are going to be both players and GM's at some point.

In any case, for the arguement to hold water, the Inner Sea World Guide would have to be listed as a GM only book; which it is not. In fact, it specifically states the opposite: "It's a handy resource for players and Game Masters looking to flesh out the world..." etc. etc. (page 6 in the first paragraph under the heading: Using This Book :/ )

The Race guides are far too big to be used as handouts and they aren't core enough to assume that even a fraction of your player base will have them. In any case, "Humans" still fails as it doesn't even back up it's own assertions such as defining what the difference between a "fantasy" human is compared to...well, whatever. Important enough to bring up but not important enough to define, show, nor even hint as to its meaning.

If the Inner Sea World Guide was not meant to be read by players then the book has largely right from the get go since its a fairly safe assumption that any Golarion fan, player or GM, has probably read it.

SJ

Contributor

Clarification: the HoG is intended as a spoiler-free, inexpensive introduction to humans in the Golarion setting. For someone just getting into the setting and planning on playing a human, it's an easy way to get all the info you need on the dynamics of humans in the setting.

Dark Archive

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Clarification: the HoG is intended as a spoiler-free, inexpensive introduction to humans in the Golarion setting. For someone just getting into the setting and planning on playing a human, it's an easy way to get all the info you need on the dynamics of humans in the setting.

For that purpose I would consider it a great book.For me its just a little bit redundant.


Mojorat wrote:
it's a book for players about humans. so were I a player only I could have the inner sea primer and this to get all the information I need. I plan to hand it out for players to read as it has all the info I'n one spot I'n a lighter volume.

+1

That is the point of player's companions....is for the players.

Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.


Sir Jolt wrote:
Thinking that a player isn't going to read a setting book is silly. Settings can make or break a purchase and anyone who expects to be involved in a game is a pre-fabricated world is likely to buy, or at least read through, the setting. Many gamers are going to be both players and GM's at some point.

I can only speak to my group but it got to the stage at one point a few years ago when everyone knew all the little secrets about the Forgotten Realms setting that none of us wanted to play in it anymore. We've since decided on a system where different GMs run different systems and settings. As such we can keep a more clearly defined line between what's for players and whats for the GM.

Sir Jolt wrote:
In any case, for the arguement to hold water, the Inner Sea World Guide would have to be listed as a GM only book; which it is not.

I don't let my players read any of the books from the campaign setting line as I've always viewed that as being for GMs. It's not listed that way because it's very much a matter of personal taste if you wish to play that way.


bigkilla wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Clarification: the HoG is intended as a spoiler-free, inexpensive introduction to humans in the Golarion setting. For someone just getting into the setting and planning on playing a human, it's an easy way to get all the info you need on the dynamics of humans in the setting.

For that purpose I would consider it a great book.For me its just a little bit redundant.

I think that this will cause me a great deal of hesitation before I purchase any further Player Companions. Everything in this one that might be needed I could have cut & pasted from other products I already own into a player friendly electronic document for my players. I'm glad that I only spent $11.00 on this lesson.


Troubled_child wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
it's a book for players about humans. so were I a player only I could have the inner sea primer and this to get all the information I need. I plan to hand it out for players to read as it has all the info I'n one spot I'n a lighter volume.

+1

I Don't allow my players to read the Inner Sea World Guide as it contains spoilers.

It is the campaign setting book. How can they make attached(to the world) characters if they don't know anything about it?

What spoilers are in the book that matter enough to run a surprise for them?

edit:I read your later post about players becoming bored with a setting so I understand now. I have never heard of that before.


wraithstrike wrote:

It is the campaign setting book. How can they make attached(to the world) characters if they don't know anything about it?

What spoilers are in the book that matter enough to run a surprise for them?

edit:I read your later post about players becoming bored with a setting so I understand now. I have never heard of that before.

I am currently running the Price of Immoortality arc (Crypt of the Everflame, Masks of the Living God, and City of Golden Death) over email. One of my players has the Inner Sea World Guide. I gave each of the players the Inner Sea Primer for Christmas.

The Inner Sea Primer is the players' version of this information. I have already had one spoiler slip from the person with the World Guide. I cannot reasonably forbid someone from purchasing and reading the book, but I have asked anyone in my game who has it to make sure any answers given to other players' questions do not include information from that book that is not in the Inner Sea Primer.

example:
Razmir is a fraud as a deity, and his cult is a vast but mundane spy ring/thieves guild. The Inner Sea Primer presents this as an unknown... a rumor or vague suspicion. The World Guide spells it out for the GMs.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
John Kretzer wrote:
Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.

Love this idea.

WotC kinda' did this with their last Eberron book about the city of Stormwatch (?). They would detail 5 leaders of the city and 6 secrets (beholden to the thieves' guild, mind controlled by an aberration, etc.), but not tell you who the secrets went with - it was up to the DM to determine.

A good example of the wrong way was the "secret" that the rules of one nation was a vampire. In the first book or two, it was a rumor or there were just hints, but by the end, everyone seemed to know it, including players. (I decided that if I ever ran a game there, I'd make him a werewolf and say that he started the vampire rumors to throw people off the trail).


Mosaic wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.

Love this idea.

WotC kinda' did this with their last Eberron book about the city of Stormwatch (?). They would detail 5 leaders of the city and 6 secrets (beholden to the thieves' guild, mind controlled by an aberration, etc.), but not tell you who the secrets went with - it was up to the DM to determine.

A good example of the wrong way was the "secret" that the rules of one nation was a vampire. In the first book or two, it was a rumor or there were just hints, but by the end, everyone seemed to know it, including players. (I decided that if I ever ran a game there, I'd make him a werewolf and say that he started the vampire rumors to throw people off the trail).

Yeah I remember the but it was the first book that outed the leader as a vampire( it was the kingdom of Karnath (sp?) ? I remembering read it and thinking they should have atleat put a warning.

Though they redeemed themselves with the player's guide to Eberron...which is info a character would know.


This book won't be long remembered, however if they did the Kellid companion

Dark Archive

Knoq Nixoy wrote:
This book won't be long remembered, however if they did the Kellid companion

+1,000,000

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

One thing that does annoy me though is that on the inside front cover the list all the "Half-Human" types (with page references) as if the GM is supposed to allow a player to use one.

Despite saying "All of these races have statistics allowing them to be used as player races, with the GM’s approval", this does seem like it is kind of taking that choice away for the GM.


John Kretzer wrote:
Mosaic wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.

Love this idea.

WotC kinda' did this with their last Eberron book about the city of Stormwatch (?). They would detail 5 leaders of the city and 6 secrets (beholden to the thieves' guild, mind controlled by an aberration, etc.), but not tell you who the secrets went with - it was up to the DM to determine.

A good example of the wrong way was the "secret" that the rules of one nation was a vampire. In the first book or two, it was a rumor or there were just hints, but by the end, everyone seemed to know it, including players. (I decided that if I ever ran a game there, I'd make him a werewolf and say that he started the vampire rumors to throw people off the trail).

Yeah I remember the but it was the first book that outed the leader as a vampire( it was the kingdom of Karnath (sp?) ? I remembering read it and thinking they should have atleat put a warning.

Though they redeemed themselves with the player's guide to Eberron...which is info a character would know.

Yeah, the original Eberron book had way to many spoilers in the player section. I loved the setting, but anyone who read the basic rulebook learned wayyyy too much about the secrets of the world.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

John Kretzer wrote:
Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.

While that's certainly an interesting idea... we'd need to let GMs know what is false or misleading somehow. And since we don't have a "GM's Version of Player Companions" line, there's no real way to provide that information. We certainly wouldn't want to indicate the falsehoods in print in the Player's Companion itself. And furthermore, introducing world flavor without specifically calling it out as false would wreak ABSOLUTE HAVOC on world canon and continuity; maintaining that's already almost a full-time job in and of itself, so I don't want to make that even harder to do.

The only really responsible to the GM solution is to present spoiler-free information that syncs up with the world. The best place to put false rumors and the like are actually in GM books, so that the GM can present them as he or she wishes.

Sovereign Court

You know ... this got me thinking

As A DM I'd probably buy a DM only book of Golarion true or not thingies just to annoy my players with it.

Could be difficult to do though as they might buy it too.

MMMM ... thinking.


Stereofm wrote:

You know ... this got me thinking

As A DM I'd probably buy a DM only book of Golarion true or not thingies just to annoy my players with it.

Could be difficult to do though as they might buy it too.

MMMM ... thinking.

Maybe a thread could be started? Actually, there are a few older ones... here's one.

Aroden crops up a bit.

Liberty's Edge

I just picked this up today and wasn't disappointed at all. It was exactly what I thought it was when I bought it: a compilation of all the existing information on Golarion Humans, organized and presented in a fashion such that I can hand it to a player and they can make a human character without pawing through all my books.

I'm definitely in the "Campaign settings material is for GMs, not players" camp. I wouldn't want any of my players buying the Inner Sea Guide. The Player's Companion series when combined with the Player's Campaign Guides for the various APs contain all the information a player needs (plus the core rulebooks, obviously), and I generally prefer it if the players don't own anything beyond that.


I can guarantee that the traits in HoG are all new material. :)


Gailbraithe wrote:

I just picked this up today and wasn't disappointed at all. It was exactly what I thought it was when I bought it: a compilation of all the existing information on Golarion Humans, organized and presented in a fashion such that I can hand it to a player and they can make a human character without pawing through all my books.

I'm definitely in the "Campaign settings material is for GMs, not players" camp. I wouldn't want any of my players buying the Inner Sea Guide. The Player's Companion series when combined with the Player's Campaign Guides for the various APs contain all the information a player needs (plus the core rulebooks, obviously), and I generally prefer it if the players don't own anything beyond that.

Which is all well and good if you are the sole DM..but falls flat on it's face in any other situation.

Liberty's Edge

I and another player in my group who bought this book were quite disappointed with it too.

When I buy such a book, I am looking for new and nice things to add to my characters, especially the ones I am currently playing.

Concerning the humans in Golarion, I just loved the idea of deepening the differences between ethnicities and I was hoping for nice interesting mechanics (feats, prestige classes, weapon familarities, alternate racial traits, archetypes, whatever) that would help bringing out their flavors.

But this book does not do this at all. It reduces a player's possibilities by giving restrictions on already existing weapons' familiarities which are sure to spark many a GM/player conflict. It offers no prestige class (contrary to many other race books) and zero feats (contrary to all other race books). In a way, it follows the trend of no human-only character-defining options that was already apparent in the APG where we had only 2 human-only feats, one of which allowed you to take feats from other races !!!

Giving a few traits for each ethnicity is nice, but really not Golarion-shattering, especially when you consider that no pre-existing character will take them. And adding a list of existing traits pointing to other products feels like forcing my hand to buy those.

I feel that Paizo was afraid of copying the Conan or Midnight RPGs' choice of making each human ethnicity a race by itself and thus they restricted themselves to small, inadequate ideas.

With a little more inventivity, we could have seen some nice things. For example, based on the list of weapons, I can make them available as simple weapons to those coming from the relevant culture or some other interesting bonus to encourage my players to strengthen the cultural identity of their character.

However, doing this is more work for the GM or the player, ie exactly what I want to avoid when I buy such a book.

In the end, this is a missed opportunity to make the human ethnicities a truly important part of each player and DM's experience of Golarion.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

One thing that was not delt with in Humans of Golarion is characters who are of "mixed" ethnicities - such as a character who is half Chelaxian and Half-Varisian.

Or for that matter "new" ethnicities such as Brevic (which is a mixing of Taldan, Kellid, and Ulfen/Iobarian), but has been stable enough to count as a new "ethnic group."

There is not real guidance on how humans such as these should be handled (rules wise).


Mosaic wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
Now if Pazio was awesome they would start putting 'false' and commonly believed things in these books as facts.

Love this idea.

WotC kinda' did this with their last Eberron book about the city of Stormwatch (?). They would detail 5 leaders of the city and 6 secrets (beholden to the thieves' guild, mind controlled by an aberration, etc.), but not tell you who the secrets went with - it was up to the DM to determine.

A good example of the wrong way was the "secret" that the rules of one nation was a vampire. In the first book or two, it was a rumor or there were just hints, but by the end, everyone seemed to know it, including players. (I decided that if I ever ran a game there, I'd make him a werewolf and say that he started the vampire rumors to throw people off the trail).

Eberron does that with a lot of stuff. The Mourning is an example.If there are other GM's with the issue of campaign world boredom I would inform the players that you are running a homebrewed version of campaign X. Now they don't know what is true vs what is not true. :)

Sovereign Court

To achieve the detail in Humans Of Golarion that we had in Elves/Gnomes/Dwarves/etc. I think Paizo should have done a book for each ethnicity... which they already are doing. The books on Taldor, Cheliax and other regions are far more useful (I think) than Humans of Golarion.

It's not a terrible book but the subject is too big for a Companion, especially when obliged to fit the format.

Still, it is better than the real Paizo misses (Guide to Darkmoon Vale, Council of Thieves Player's Guide).


GeraintElberion wrote:

To achieve the detail in Humans Of Golarion that we had in Elves/Gnomes/Dwarves/etc. I think Paizo should have done a book for each ethnicity... which they already are doing. The books on Taldor, Cheliax and other regions are far more useful (I think) than Humans of Golarion.

It's not a terrible book but the subject is too big for a Companion, especially when obliged to fit the format.

Still, it is better than the real Paizo misses (Guide to Darkmoon Vale, Council of Thieves Player's Guide).

What is wrong with the CoT players guide?


wraithstrike wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

To achieve the detail in Humans Of Golarion that we had in Elves/Gnomes/Dwarves/etc. I think Paizo should have done a book for each ethnicity... which they already are doing. The books on Taldor, Cheliax and other regions are far more useful (I think) than Humans of Golarion.

It's not a terrible book but the subject is too big for a Companion, especially when obliged to fit the format.

Still, it is better than the real Paizo misses (Guide to Darkmoon Vale, Council of Thieves Player's Guide).

What is wrong with the CoT players guide?

The free CoT player's guide..

Sovereign Court

Steve Geddes wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

To achieve the detail in Humans Of Golarion that we had in Elves/Gnomes/Dwarves/etc. I think Paizo should have done a book for each ethnicity... which they already are doing. The books on Taldor, Cheliax and other regions are far more useful (I think) than Humans of Golarion.

It's not a terrible book but the subject is too big for a Companion, especially when obliged to fit the format.

Still, it is better than the real Paizo misses (Guide to Darkmoon Vale, Council of Thieves Player's Guide).

What is wrong with the CoT players guide?
The free CoT player's guide..

The writing and structure of the Westcrown Environs section is terrible. The rest is only tolerable (and the Hellknight option is a campaign-damaging curveball) James Jacobs has admitted that they dropped the ball on editing that one because of the PFRPG release chaos.

And don't give me that stuff about it being free so I should be grateful. You need a player's guide for an AP, I would actually rather pay for a printed guide like the RotRL/CofCT one.
But, more than that, I would rather have no guide than a terrible one. I had to rewrite/edit/restructure that whole guide for my players.


GeraintElberion wrote:
James Jacobs has admitted that they dropped the ball on editing that one because of the PFRPG release chaos.

They do have very high standards. I dont think it follows that their standard should be how we judge things as a hit or miss though.

GeraintElberion wrote:
And don't give me that stuff about it being free so I should be grateful. You need a player's guide for an AP

I don't agree. However if you're expecting something of a certain quality as part of what you're getting when you purchase the six volumes then your characterisation might make sense. I personally dont see why there would be a sense of entitlement to these things rather than treating the player's guides as an 'added bonus'.

Quote:
, I would actually rather pay for a printed guide like the RotRL/CofCT one.

I would also like them to print player's guides like they used to (I get mine printed out professionally) - I just dont think that a poor, free book should count as a "miss". I don't understand this sentiment:

Quote:
But, more than that, I would rather have no guide than a terrible one. I had to rewrite/edit/restructure that whole guide for my players.

How can it be worse to have something free you don't like than to have nothing? Just delete it and you're where you are with nothing. If it has any skerrick of value - you're better off. If it literally has no value (surprising, but I guess it's possible), you can just ignore it.


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I cancelled my subscription largely on my disappointment in Humans of Golarion. Where is the new material?

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