"Advanced Race Guide" Wish List


Product Discussion

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Bump for lizards.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The blog about Gencon has another little teaser about ARG!

" the Advanced Race Guide (a big hardcover book that’ll give you new options for ALL of the zero Hit Die races we’ve published to that point, as well as rules for building your own races of any power level), "


I liked the Savage Species rules. It would be nice to be able to start a character of a powerful race at 1st level, and choose to add a level of the monster class, the racial type class, or some other class.

I liked the 3.5e LA rules. They made it easier to add templates to characters and keep them balanced with other characters. It just seems like something is missing with the PF CR rules.

I would also like to see height/weight/age rules for all races (not just PC races). I had a player ask me once why all <insert creature here> were the same size. I could vary them myself, but I try to create all of my characters and monsters electronically to ensure that I don't miss adding a bonus. Rules like this can be programmed.

I would like to see better thought-out rules for equipment of different sizes. What are the carrying capacities of Fine and Colossal backpacks? How much do they weigh and cost? How much food and water do Fine and Colossal characters need? What are the range increments of Fine and Colossal bows and daggers?

I would like some rules for epic level characters. That probably becomes the subject of another book altogether.


@Dennis Baker: Since their development was fairly concurent, does this mean that any 0HD creatures from Beastiary 3 would also be included? Or will they be too new? This is of course assuming that they have 0HD races. Obviously if B3 doesn't have 0HD dudes then the answer is no.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Seems to be what the blog is suggesting. You might dig through the Bestiary III product announcement thread, there might be some details on what races will be included in B3.


Well, the B3 product page menitons new familiars, animal companions and "other" allies, so I'm gonna assume yes.

Cool, can't wait for new 0HD folk. The Breadth of races is something that I currently enjoy very much in Pathfinder. Not too many to wrap your head around, but just enough to be able to represent most forms of "person" that could be imagined. (My favorites right now are Tieflings and the Geanie Folk. However: Humanity always has a special place in my heart.) And as always, I'm always holding out for 0HD Reptilians

On that note: I finally dredged up JJ's write up on 0HD Lizardfolk, and here it is:

YEAH!

Kinda cool.

Liberty's Edge

I have said it before but I will say it again. Why should Elves and Orcs have all the fun with Humans? Cross breed us some Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings!


Kevida wrote:
I have said it before but I will say it again. Why should Elves and Orcs have all the fun with Humans? Cross breed us some Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings!

This is just my opinion, but Human / Halfling crossbreeds feel a bit perverse. I mean, you have a race that is regularly confused with a human child, and you want me to believe that crossbreeds between these two races happen frequently? Eh heh ... eh heh ... eh heh ... um, no?


Tuatha Dé Danann are a race of people in Celtic folklore, of which there are many folk heroes and such.
Formorians (or "Fomoire" to distinguish) for the same reason.
Fir Bolg (or "Fir Bholg" to distinguish) for the same reason.

Wild Elves from AD&D, because I want to make an official recreation of an old favorite character.

The Exchange

Some of my favorite characters from previous D&D iterations were:

Minotaur
Wemic
Kender (uh-oh)
Thri-kreen
Orcs
Goblins

I'd love to see those.

If level adjustment is a problem, perhaps we can get half-"something cool" variants with diulted powers.

Alternately, higher level adjustment characters could start out weaker than others of thier race, then once they hit a certain level, gain a racial level later (rather than gaining a class level)to mature to the full versions of their race.


wolflord wrote:

Some of my favorite characters from previous D&D iterations were:

Minotaur
Wemic
Kender (uh-oh)
Thri-kreen
Orcs
Goblins

I'd love to see those.

Goblins and orcs seem to be confirmed; apparently, all 0-HD races are covered. But 'kreen, kender, and (IIRC) wemics are product identity.


Arevashti wrote:
wolflord wrote:

Some of my favorite characters from previous D&D iterations were:

Minotaur
Wemic
Kender (uh-oh)
Thri-kreen
Orcs
Goblins

I'd love to see those.

Goblins and orcs seem to be confirmed; apparently, all 0-HD races are covered. But 'kreen, kender, and (IIRC) wemics are product identity.

I would love to see an official pathfinder version of Goliath, Warforge, Dragonborn and Cat folk.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

wolflord wrote:

Some of my favorite characters from previous D&D iterations were:

Minotaur
Wemic
Kender (uh-oh)
Thri-kreen
Orcs
Goblins

I was a huge fan of the thri-kreen, unfortunately they are (bizarrely) one of the races WotC kept out of the OGL. Paizo won't release any look-alike races unless it's for more generic stuff.

Kender are just halflings with the annoying template applied. You can do the conversion yourself at home ;)


I would like to see something like 3.5s Goliath race also, though rather than take the Powerful Build approach, go for the gold and give us a Large race.

Powerful build basically gave 90% of the bonuses for being large, but none of the drawbacks, and that irked (or still irks) some of the people I play with now. Goliaths were my favorite race, but they are not well received because my friends think a +1 LA was too low.

Halflings and gnomes are small, everything else is medium. Lets see some bigger races, so we can cover that niche: the lumbering/gentle/protective/raging giant in the party.

Dark Archive

Powerful build didn't grant reach which is one of the best things about being large. Still a very useful ability.
As for Catfolk and Goliaths, Tabaxi (Tome of Horrors Complete) and Half-Giants (Psionics Unleashed) could work as a substitution.
There's an interesting thread at the Dreamscarred forums about using racial paragon dromites as a Thri-Kreen replacement. [URL?http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1560.html]Link[/URL]
Creature Collection had a race of liontaurs, but White Wolf's Product Identity policy makes those pretty unusable for Paizo. There are also lamias.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think a Small race with Powerful Build might be fun. Maybe a gnome-dwarf crossbreed?

Maybe a "mutant" race (possibly aberration) that has all sorts of neat deformities and bizarre abilities, like a camel-humpback, a single Large arm, a single Small arm, a third eye, a vestigial tail, a single eye, lobster claws, a hoofed foot, a bird foot, scales, a vestigial tentacle, etc. etc.


SmiloDan wrote:
... a single Large arm, a single Small arm...

I was immediately reminded of Borderlands. The Badass Psycho enemies had one big arm and one that was shriveled up and tiny.

Jadeite wrote:
Powerful build didn't grant reach which is one of the best things about being large. Still a very useful ability.

No, it didn't, but I think reach would have put it over the edge in usefulness. Goliaths were already massive players in melee. If reach had been involved, I'd never have gotten to play one. That falls under the 10% of bonuses from being large that powerful build DIDN'T grant. Bonuses to special attacks ("combat maneuvers"), being treated as large for swallow whole and grab and the like, using large greataxes...

Hitting with a 3d6 greataxe with a +5 Str (while raging usually, so +7 Str), I averaged 18 damage a hit at first level. At level 2 I crit a carrion crab for 60 damage. The DM was pissed. Since then, my friends have all politely shunned goliaths. If powerful build had given reach... oi...


Jadeite wrote:
As for Catfolk and Goliaths, Tabaxi (Tome of Horrors Complete) and Half-Giants (Psionics Unleashed) could work as a substitution.

Half-giants as goliaths, sure.

Tabaxi as catfolk? Not so much; different racials, and no 40 base speed. (As a side note, I'm actually working on an original race with a 40 base speed.)

Quote:
There's an interesting thread at the Dreamscarred forums about using racial paragon dromites as a Thri-Kreen replacement. Link

Up-size dromites to medium, and they could play the role.

Quote:
Creature Collection had a race of liontaurs, but White Wolf's Product Identity policy makes those pretty unusable for Paizo. There are also lamias.

Even considering WW's policy, The Proud shouldn't cause a problem if re-named and re-flavored. That's what they did with the iron tusker and sandmasker.

Hell, they didn't even have to re-flavor the iron tusker and sandmasker that much.

SmiloDan wrote:
I think a Small race with Powerful Build might be fun. Maybe a gnome-dwarf crossbreed?

Fantasy Flight's blickish with a few alterations, maybe?

Quote:
Maybe a "mutant" race (possibly aberration) that has all sorts of neat deformities and bizarre abilities, like a camel-humpback, a single Large arm, a single Small arm, a third eye, a vestigial tail, a single eye, lobster claws, a hoofed foot, a bird foot, scales, a vestigial tentacle, etc. etc.

Possibly mongrelmen?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If they can squeeze it in, I'd love to see a reinterpretation (or even a sidebar of advice) relating to all these new options in regards to Reincarnation. I can already see using the race-building rules for making non-CR/lvl bumping versions of Bugbears, Gnolls & what-not for a new incarnation, but guidelines on revamping the Reincarnate table would be nice.


Grendel Todd wrote:
If they can squeeze it in, I'd love to see a reinterpretation (or even a sidebar of advice) relating to all these new options in regards to Reincarnation. I can already see using the race-building rules for making non-CR/lvl bumping versions of Bugbears, Gnolls & what-not for a new incarnation, but guidelines on revamping the Reincarnate table would be nice.

As would I. My setting project has a few nonstandard races, but is missing a few standard ones. While I've tried to re-work it on my own, some guidelines couldn't hurt.


Just my two-cents-worth wishes:

a) faeries , expecially Pixies, as a (playable) race.
b) a changeform race, with access to transforming yourself in animal, vegetal, mineral, well before high levels.
c) a spirit race. no kidding. Helping beings bound to a hero-would-be (thinking to a spirit shaman, but non restrainning the subject to other classes as well). Not going to explore what lies in the next room (beyond a wall or at the floor below), mind it (so material beings are able to explore with no one 'taking away the fun').


1)A playable Fey touched race
2)Fairy like playable race like a Sprite or Pixie
shapechanging race would be good(Kitsune will be the closest we will get though)
3)A way to play as a Nixie
4)A dragon as a playable race(not a dragonman but a dragon)
5)Plant based race(s)
6)A "Catgirl" race or maybe like the new thundercats race but all them have tails
7)A playable Monstrous humaniod race
8)A Giant blooded race
9)A plane touched race for the positive energy race
10)A playable Magical beast

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I want rules for advancing the power of the character's race. Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 are non-class related "dead" levels, and seem like good points to give races power boosts. I think they should create several racial talent trees for each race, to emphasize the different racial aspects a race has. For example, dwarves could have a racial talent tree that emphasizes dwarven toughness, one that emphasizes their creative bent, and one that emphasizes their military bent and racial bonuses against enemies. For elves, one could emphasize magic use, one could emphasize their sensory stuff, one could emphasize their tie with nature. Gnomes would have one for combating racial foes, one for dealing with illusions, and one for trickery.


SmiloDan wrote:
I want rules for advancing the power of the character's race. Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 are non-class related "dead" levels, and seem like good points to give races power boosts. I think they should create several racial talent trees for each race, to emphasize the different racial aspects a race has. For example, dwarves could have a racial talent tree that emphasizes dwarven toughness, one that emphasizes their creative bent, and one that emphasizes their military bent and racial bonuses against enemies. For elves, one could emphasize magic use, one could emphasize their sensory stuff, one could emphasize their tie with nature. Gnomes would have one for combating racial foes, one for dealing with illusions, and one for trickery.

I second that


I miss the old 3.x Changeling. I like the 'descended from a doppelganger' version far more than the 'descended from a hag'. Of course there's probably IP laws in the way.

Warforged could also get tricky for IP reasons, but if I remember correctly, there's already a race of sentient constructs in Numeria under the command of the Technic League. Making those playable could be interesting.


SmiloDan wrote:
Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 are non-class related "dead" levels

??? Not sure where this is coming from. Fighters and monks both get bonus feats, and its normally on those levels that particular class features advance.

On the notion of talent tress: Don't like it. Part of the appeal of character creation to me is that things are normaly not locked in to a particular tree path, and I can mix and match any assortments of combat, metamagic, item creation, and social feats on any given characters. Feat trees still exist obviously, but they're more a chain of pre-requisites than options on a path.

On that end, more racial feats would be great. And potentially having alternate advancement in such a way that players of a particular race are able to get more of those feats for free would be cool as well.


masterzen wrote:


I would love to see an official pathfinder version of Goliath, Warforge, Dragonborn and Cat folk.

These were some of my favorite as well.

Winged Dragonborn FTW


masterzen wrote:
I would love to see an official pathfinder version of Goliath, Warforge, Dragonborn and Cat folk.

Unfortunately, I bet all are WotC property and can not be officially made for Pathfinder. But if one was IP of a staff member and not WotC, or folklore, then yes it could be made for Pathfinder, but again unlikely.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jeranimus Rex wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
Levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 are non-class related "dead" levels

??? Not sure where this is coming from. Fighters and monks both get bonus feats, and its normally on those levels that particular class features advance.

On the notion of talent tress: Don't like it. Part of the appeal of character creation to me is that things are normaly not locked in to a particular tree path, and I can mix and match any assortments of combat, metamagic, item creation, and social feats on any given characters. Feat trees still exist obviously, but they're more a chain of pre-requisites than options on a path.

On that end, more racial feats would be great. And potentially having alternate advancement in such a way that players of a particular race are able to get more of those feats for free would be cool as well.

Those are class-related stuff. I mean non-class related. For example, at odd levels, you get a feat. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, you get an ability boost. But at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18, you only get class-related stuff. Nothing non-class related. Therefore, I think those levels would be great for non-class related stuff, like racial stuff. Maybe something to consider in 10 years when Pathfinder 2.0 comes out or whatever. They would be good levels for "more powerful than average races" to dish out some racial features.

For example, a winged race might grant gliding at 2nd, limited flight at 6th, and true flight at 10th, with boosts to speed and maneuverability at 14th and 18th. A dragon-like race might get a breath weapon or energy resistance (or improvements to their breath weapon or energy resistances) at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. A drow noble might get additional spell-like abilities, ability score increases, or spell resistance at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Deity and cosmology material for some of the more apt to be played races. Who do they worship and revere in their society?

Possibly material about running a world without humans, or a nonhuman centric world.

Origin and racial history for each race. As a GM I like to know how and where a race came into being as well as a brief history. Also tell me what is the motivator behind the race and their place in the current world. Are they a dying race? Are they a growing developing race? Are they a race in transition from nomads or warriors to a settle society? Who are their enemies and who are their allies?

Day-to-day society material for some of the more apt to be played races. Is the society active during the day, or is it nocturnal? Is it taboo to worship or trade during certain times of the day? What are some of the holidays and festivals of other races? Who rules and governs the society?

Dying races. How about a race or two that is nearing extinction and how they are handling that fact.

Some good maps of various cities, towns, villages, and camps of the more apt to be played races. Not every society thinks and builds like humans. How about a race that lives on the back of a giant animal. A race that lives on a flotilla of interconnected barges and rafts. A nomadic seafaring race of traders that detests the confines of land and nations. A race of avian or ethereal beings that live in floating city in the clouds or a mountain spire. A race that lives in the wreckage or their crashed spaceship or planar ship.

Modes of transportation. Some unusual mounts and vehicles would be nice. Not everyone rides a horse or uses an ox cart.

Some half-race options and templates for players.


kid america wrote:

Deity and cosmology material for some of the more apt to be played races. Who do they worship and revere in their society?

Possibly material about running a world without humans, or a nonhuman centric world.

Origin and racial history for each race. As a GM I like to know how and where a race came into being as well as a brief history. Also tell me what is the motivator behind the race and their place in the current world. Are they a dying race? Are they a growing developing race? Are they a race in transition from nomads or warriors to a settle society? Who are their enemies and who are their allies?

Day-to-day society material for some of the more apt to be played races. Is the society active during the day, or is it nocturnal? Is it taboo to worship or trade during certain times of the day? What are some of the holidays and festivals of other races? Who rules and governs the society?

Yes, please!

Quote:
Some good maps of various cities, towns, villages, and camps of the more apt to be played races. Not every society thinks and builds like humans. How about a race that lives on the back of a giant animal. A race that lives on a flotilla of interconnected barges and rafts. A nomadic seafaring race of traders that detests the confines of land and nations. A race of avian or ethereal beings that live in floating city in the clouds or a mountain spire. A race that lives in the wreckage or their crashed spaceship or planar ship.

While I like all of this, I'd like to address the two that I've boldfaced in particular: To the first, I'm actually thinking of doing that in my campaign setting.

To the second: I see what you did there.


SmiloDan wrote:
Stuff

huh.... So at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter you want a player to increasingly become a more powerful member of their race...

Interesting. I'm not opposed to this, but I find that it requires more space that I would be comfortable with in a single hardcover.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jeranimus Rex wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
Stuff

huh.... So at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter you want a player to increasingly become a more powerful member of their race...

Interesting. I'm not opposed to this, but I find that it requires more space that I would be comfortable with in a single hardcover.

Yeah, I think this would be such a dramatic change to races, it would work best when they eventually (in the far, far future) re-do the system.


SmiloDan wrote:
Jeranimus Rex wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
Stuff

huh.... So at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter you want a player to increasingly become a more powerful member of their race...

Interesting. I'm not opposed to this, but I find that it requires more space that I would be comfortable with in a single hardcover.

Yeah, I think this would be such a dramatic change to races, it would work best when they eventually (in the far, far future) re-do the system.

Shouldn't it be IF they?


Golden-Esque wrote:
Shouldn't it be IF they?

Nah. If we hit, oh, 2025, and Paizo hasn't revised the system, somebody else will.

Dark Archive

I know this may be odd a bit but please hear me out. Could there be a race added that is from the concept of being like a Homoculous? Considered to be along the lines of a Half race (Half-Elf, Half-Orc...or maybe a Flesh Golem might fit) whose stats are set to be based on three to four different intentions of creation, with a small list of some versatile abilities to choose from(similar to the Changeling).

I feel this race could make for interesting storytelling as well as player interaction.

Please, please expand upon the Changeling and consider this idea Paizo as I feel it would be a nice addition to the APG.


Imagine my surprise when I found out that catfolk have been confirmed!

(Of course, it's probably a new and original take on the same concept. But even so.)


Arevashti wrote:

Imagine my surprise when I found out that catfolk have been confirmed!

I don't like the name personally. The word "cat" is conotative of domesticated felines, like Tabbies and Siamese, so any race with the name "catfolk" anthropomorphise these assumptions.

Now, if it turns out these catfolk are anthropomorphic "big cats" like tigers and lions, and other genuinely cool felines, then I'm more ok with it.

Also, kinda happy kitsune are now "in" from the Tian Xia book, as well as 0hd Lizardfolk.


Jeranimus Rex wrote:

I don't like the name personally. The word "cat" is conotative of domesticated felines, like Tabbies and Siamese, so any race with the name "catfolk" anthropomorphise these assumptions.

Now, if it turns out these catfolk are anthropomorphic "big cats" like tigers and lions, and other genuinely cool felines, then I'm more ok with it.

Also, kinda happy kitsune are now "in" from the Tian Xia book, as well as 0hd Lizardfolk.

I suggested "ailuroi" as an alternate name.

I'm also hoping they're based off of one of the big cats. (Imagine the possibilities of a culture inspired by lion pride behavior.) But some of the smaller wild cats are cool in their own right.

As for kitsune and 0HD lizardfolk, I'm going to have to see them to really pass judgment on them.

Dark Archive

I think that it would be cool to have several subraces of catfolk - the standard one, based on Monte Cook's Litorians, or lion people; a small race based on tibits - and a large race, based on tigers.

IIRC, 3.5 catfolk were based on leopards and medium-sized wild cats. I really hope that Paizo's version will be based on Litorians.


altough I can't say that I'm a big fan of catfolk, I do like having a head that looks a bit like a lion.

But isn't it a bit late for a new race in the book?

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:

altough I can't say that I'm a big fan of catfolk, I do like having a head that looks a bit like a lion.

But isn't it a bit late for a new race in the book?

I'm pretty sure that the catfolk are confirmed as a race. But we don't know yet in what way will they be presented.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nightflier wrote:
Richard Leonhart wrote:

altough I can't say that I'm a big fan of catfolk, I do like having a head that looks a bit like a lion.

But isn't it a bit late for a new race in the book?

I'm pretty sure that the catfolk are confirmed as a race. But we don't know yet in what way will they be presented.

Maybe something like the leonine hani from CJ Cherryh's Chanur series? Sexual dimorphism! Males would have Powerful Build and make excellent barbarians (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis), females would be the smaller ones (but still technically Medium sized) in charge of running things (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str).

Dark Archive

You know, I should read that series. :)

In my homebrew, I have several "castes" of catfolk, based on the different animals (tigers, lions, jaguars, panther etc.) and some of those have different ability modifiers for males and females.

But I don't think that Paizo will go with something like that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nightflier wrote:

You know, I should read that series. :)

In my homebrew, I have several "castes" of catfolk, based on the different animals (tigers, lions, jaguars, panther etc.) and some of those have different ability modifiers for males and females.

But I don't think that Paizo will go with something like that.

CJ Cherryh is AMAZING!!!!! Particularly her 5 book Chanur series, her 12 book Foreigner series, and Cyteen & Regenesis from her Alliance-Union series.

I played in a campaign once with lots of different catfolk (lion, tiger, panther, etc.), lots of different lizardfolk (komodo, gecko, chameleon, gila, etc. etc.), and I think no humans. It was neat, but weird. I can't even remember what my character was!!!!! I just remember pages and pages of houserules and racial modifiers.


SmiloDan wrote:
Maybe something like the leonine hani from CJ Cherryh's Chanur series? Sexual dimorphism! Males would have Powerful Build and make excellent barbarians (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis), females would be the smaller ones (but still technically Medium sized) in charge of running things (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str).

I somewhat had the hani in mind when I remarked about a culture inspired by lion prides.

Nightflyer's catfolk sound a bit like Fantasy Flight's artathi (although I don't think any of them were dimorphic).


So, after reading all the posts I seeing here, I feel more comfortable with letting my player characters play anything they want. If they pick something too crazy I'll do what I've always done and let them evolve In race as they do in levels. Thanks for the core books and anything else you got coming. I'll keep on making it all up as I go along, And adding all your insight.

Dark Archive

SmiloDan wrote:
I played in a campaign once with lots of different catfolk (lion, tiger, panther, etc.), lots of different lizardfolk (komodo, gecko, chameleon, gila, etc. etc.), and I think no humans. It was neat, but weird.

Basing a setting full of animal/human hybrids off of the Changing Breeds from the old World of Darkness, with the Ananazi and the Corax and the Mokole, could be funky. There's a whole rich mythology that pretty much got abandoned when WW took that bold leap into their new edition.

Alternately, and similar to what was done with the Anpur 'gnolls' of the Hamunaptra setting, going with a version of Osirion / ancient Egypt inhabited by actual animal-headed people (or, anthropomorphic animals, more accurately), could be totally cool. Hawk-men would follow Ra or Horus, cat-people would follow Bast or Sekhmet, crocodile men would serve Sobk, jackal-men would worship Anubis, etc.

I've never been a huge fan of cat-folk, but I can hardly look down on anthro/furry enthusiasts, given my fondness for gnolls, Freeport's serpentfolk and aarakocra. :)

The cool thing about the Advanced books being in the Pathfinder side of the book line, and not the Golarion-specific side of the line, is that they can stat up all sorts of mechanically neato critters that might be *totally* inappropriate for the Golarion setting (just like clerics of philosophies or whatnot, legal by the mechanics of the PF rules, but persona non grata in the setting itself). So even if 'official' Golarion has not a single catgirl, they can print up rules for them, and it only matters for Organized Play.

Dark Archive

To be honest, I was pretty indifferent to the "furries" until I played Litorian paladin in Ptolus. He became one of my favorite characters of all time.


Just got to look at the TOHC tabaxi, and my opinion has changed a bit. If they didn't have racial HD (and maybe had less "awesome" stats), they'd be about perfect.

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