Why have unlimited cantrips / orisons?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

To me, the use of unlimited cantrips/orisons makes no sense, and tends to make classes like the rogue less useful (you dont need a specialist to open a lock when your spellcaster can simply and repeatedly acid it open).


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Unless of course, you have 1 round to get the lock open before being swarmed by the enemy, at which point, having that specialist suddenly looks really good. All in all, the unlimited cantrips can be powerful with enough time and under the right circumstances, but they hardly break the game. They simply change how DMs and players have to approach it.


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Does acid bypass hardness? If not, metal has 10 hardness and won't take any damage from acid splash.


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Joana wrote:
Does acid bypass hardness? If not, metal has 10 hardness and won't take any damage from acid splash.

Weak acid (1d3) wouldn't do much to anything metal. Plus that acid only lasts one round. Not much time to eat through anything.


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On the other hand, your first level mage is not standing around doing nothing after casting a magic missile.

One of the few things that I liked about 4th Ed D&D was that spellcasters had some at will powers, which meant that in roleplaying, they always felt magical. 4th Ed went too far, IMO.

I think "free refills" on cantrips/orisons is a good compromise. My mage can always cast light, mage hand and a weak attack.

As far as the lock goes, it would take a LOT of acid to etch away the metal in lock. I think the Rules-As-Written would tell you to subtract the hardness of the material from the damage, which would make the cantrip useless.


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The unlimited use is there to prevent the 15 minute workday effect. It basically allows even casters who are out of their normal resources to have SOMETHING to do. It also means things they commonly need to do like identify magic items or read new scrolls dont bring things to a halt, rest recover spells mode.

As for aciding open a lock, if you are talking about acid splash that isnt actually possible. Each attack is subject to the objects hardness. Usually a lock would be 15. 1d3 wont penetrate that


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Joana wrote:
Does acid bypass hardness? If not, metal has 10 hardness and won't take any damage from acid splash.

There is a rule that states that the GM can allow certain energy attacks to ignore hardness (such as fire on paper or wood) if he believes it is appropriate. So, some GMs might allow acid splash to eventually eat through a lock.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Also, repeated spellcasting is going to be exhausting at worst, and mentally tedious at best. (Pick an action that takes 6 seconds, any action, and repeat it for 10 minutes and see how it makes you feel.)

Sure, it might work, in the same way that moving house by walking one item over at a time will work. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't rather rent a truck and do it all at once.

It's a 'right tool for the job' thing.


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That's assumng the lock is more susceptible to the Acid then other objects. If not then it does half damage before applying DR.

(1d3 / 2) - DR. Is lock made of leather with a DR of 2?

It used to be back in 3e that some types of energy attacks could bypass DR and do full damage. Pathfinder cleared that up. Unless the object is particularly vulnerable (GM discression, such as paper to fire) the attack does 1/2 damage. Then you subtract the DR.

Another issue is line of effect. Locks, the bolt part, are often inside the door with only a very narrow crack between door and frame. That crack would afford the bolt a cover bonus on the touch attack... If it's visible at all. Melting the keyhole will break the lock in the closed position.

Cantrips are very limited utitliy. The worst thing I've seen (mind you this would take lots of time) is a high level Druid or cleric using create water to flood a ship or dungeon. Possibly over saturate a hill to cause a mud slide. However we're talking lots of castings at an order of impracticality.

Sovereign Court

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Ah, the classic 'unlimited acid is imba' argument. Right there beside 'unlimited create water means I can flood dungeons!'.


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Matrixryu wrote:
Joana wrote:
Does acid bypass hardness? If not, metal has 10 hardness and won't take any damage from acid splash.
There is a rule that states that the GM can allow certain energy attacks to ignore hardness (such as fire on paper or wood) if he believes it is appropriate. So, some GMs might allow acid splash to eventually eat through a lock.

Just a slight correction. Default elemental damage is 1/2 to objects. A GM can allow it to do full damage. Hardness still applies regardless. Even with full damage to metal acid would need to get past a Hardness 10 in most cases. Paper has a Hardness 0.

A 1d3 Fire attack on wood would not work. Hardness 5.


On the create water topic, flooding a dungeon seems impractical, but what if you combined that with raise/lower water spell. Any body of liquid can be raises 2 feet/level. You just need a thin layer over a large area, cast this spell and boom, instant flood. Opinions?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Ross Byers wrote:
Pick an action that takes 6 seconds, any action, and repeat it for 10 minutes and see how it makes you feel.

....

....

...should I say it?


Magnu123 wrote:
On the create water topic, flooding a dungeon seems impractical, but what if you combined that with raise/lower water spell. Any body of liquid can be raises 2 feet/level. You just need a thin layer over a large area, cast this spell and boom, instant flood. Opinions?

Create water also short circuits many environmental hazards, Desert no problem cast all the water you need. Fire, create water team to the rescue.

Its a small gripe, but as a DM it does limit a few things.


Jiggy wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Pick an action that takes 6 seconds, any action, and repeat it for 10 minutes and see how it makes you feel.

....

....

...should I say it?

Absolutely!!!

After all, a dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste... :-D

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Honestly, using unlimited cantrips in my game has meant that we never think about 0 level spells. :/ I'm not so sure it's a good idea anymore.


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Jiggy wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Pick an action that takes 6 seconds, any action, and repeat it for 10 minutes and see how it makes you feel.

....

....

...should I say it?

I really hadn't gone there, but that made me laugh.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Glad to see I'm starting to make my mark on these boards. :D

Regarding Create Water: It's also good for interrogations.

Liberty's Edge

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How is a caster shooting out minor amounts of acid to open a lock any different than a fighter hacking it open with his sword (or dagger even) other than being slower? (And of course, not possible via RAW, but we'll ignore that for the sake of discussion.)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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ShadowcatX wrote:
How is a caster shooting out minor amounts of acid to open a lock any different than a fighter hacking it open with his sword (or dagger even) other than being slower? (And of course, not possible via RAW, but we'll ignore that for the sake of discussion.)

Long before I personally started roleplaying, I heard a saying; something along the lines of "in D&D, a hammer is nothing more than a heavier set of lockpicks".


Kolokotroni wrote:

The unlimited use is there to prevent the 15 minute workday effect. It basically allows even casters who are out of their normal resources to have SOMETHING to do. It also means things they commonly need to do like identify magic items or read new scrolls dont bring things to a halt, rest recover spells mode.

This.

I could never understand the 2E mentality that 1 first level spell is considered a PC. How did a character with one spell... and 4 hp expect to survive adventuring? Best case scenario... it was 1 magic missle. Then you were done.

Also having to waste that one slot for reading and/or detecting magic was painful...

A mage should have learned multiple minor magic effects in his training... 0 level spells show that BEAUTIFULLY... It was one of my favorite discoveries after switching to Pathfinder.


My problem with them being unlimited is in comparison to the rogue talent minor magic. Any orison known unlimited at level 1, versus a special talent to learn 1 0 level orison, 3x a day.

As for campaign planning, I just find it shifts the curve for magic availability a bit. Lesser magic becomes far more common and infuses most aspects of society, only need 1 level to get prestidigitation to create signs and advertisements. While not making more powerful magic any more common.

That aspect I like.

Liberty's Edge

keeper0 wrote:
On the other hand, your first level mage is not standing around doing nothing after casting a magic missile.

So much this. I never played wizards in Basic, 1E or 2E, because they were so damn BORING at low-levels, and most campaigns I played in didn't last long enough to get interesting. Even in 3.5 I found them tedious to play.

A first level wizard who's blown his load is pretty much useless. You cast your one spell and spend the rest of the session saying "I miss the kobold with my sling." In 3.5 they could still have something to do as long as they had a crossbow, but playing a crossbowman who can't hit the broad side of a barn or survive a single round of hand to hand combat really doesn't leave you feeling like The Wizard. More like The Chump.

But an endless supply of 1d3 ranged touch attacks? Sure, it may be kind of pathetic, but at least you're casting spells through the whole adventure, and being all wizardy.

Quote:
As far as the lock goes, it would take a LOT of acid to etch away the metal in lock. I think the Rules-As-Written would tell you to subtract the hardness of the material from the damage, which would make the cantrip useless.

Another option is for the DM to just rule that Acid Splash isn't accurate enough for that kind of work (the term "Splash" doesn't sound very precise to me...). Even when a thief uses acid to break a lock, it's not like the thief is just throwing acid on the lock and letting it dissolve - he's carefully channeling the acid (using a glass tube) towards specific parts of the lock to eat through a few key pins or tumblers.

Just splashing acid all over it may destroy the lock, but it won't necessarily leave the door in an operable condition. It could just as easily end with the thief screaming at you for being a clumsy dolt and damaging the lock beyond his ability to pick it.


phantom1592 wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

The unlimited use is there to prevent the 15 minute workday effect. It basically allows even casters who are out of their normal resources to have SOMETHING to do. It also means things they commonly need to do like identify magic items or read new scrolls dont bring things to a halt, rest recover spells mode.

This.

I could never understand the 2E mentality that 1 first level spell is considered a PC. How did a character with one spell... and 4 hp expect to survive adventuring? Best case scenario... it was 1 magic missle. Then you were done.

Also having to waste that one slot for reading and/or detecting magic was painful...

A mage should have learned multiple minor magic effects in his training... 0 level spells show that BEAUTIFULLY... It was one of my favorite discoveries after switching to Pathfinder.

I agree with your assessment of the why, but disagree with your statement regarding Magic Missile. In 2ed, Sleep allowed no save and affected multiple creatures. If you only got one spell, that was the bigg'in.

Liberty's Edge

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Tilnar wrote:
I agree with your assessment of the why, but disagree with your statement regarding Magic Missile. In 2ed, Sleep allowed no save and affected multiple creatures. If you only got one spell, that was the bigg'in.

Magic Missile is for suckers. Sleep is always a good choice, as is the unsung wonder of 1st level spells: COLOR SPRAY.

I think its because people feel dumb throwing a rainbow at their enemies. But a rainbow that can potentially knock 16 kobolds unconscious?

PURE AWESOME.


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I recall my players wanting to combine Create Water and Ray of Frost to freeze water over an enemy's head to crush him. One would cast Create Water, and the other would ready an action to cast Ray of Frost when the water appeared. I allowed it, and I allowed the victim a Reflex save (using the higher spell save DC of the water-producer or the freezer) to avoid the damage (1d6 bludgeoning). Honestly, it was a pretty creative way to combine cantrips/orisons, and it seems balanced that two 0th-level spells would combine to make a 1d6 with one roll to avoid damage, compared to 2d3 with two rolls to avoid damage (from, say, two rays of frost).

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Gailbraithe wrote:

I think its because people feel dumb throwing a rainbow at their enemies. But a rainbow that can potentially knock 16 kobolds unconscious?

PURE AWESOME.

I think people are more put off by the range. If the DM rolls well (or worse, fudges against the SoD caster all the time) the caster is in for some hurting.


Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
To me, the use of unlimited cantrips/orisons makes no sense, and tends to make classes like the rogue less useful (you dont need a specialist to open a lock when your spellcaster can simply and repeatedly acid it open).

Compare how many times you want your Wizard to cast Detect Magic in the average day vs. how many times they could memorize it in 3.5.

I have absolutely no problem with unlimited orisons/cantrips. The most powerful one in the system is Prestidigitation. Think about that. Then re-read it. Then think about it again.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:

I think its because people feel dumb throwing a rainbow at their enemies. But a rainbow that can potentially knock 16 kobolds unconscious?

PURE AWESOME.

I think people are more put off by the range. If the DM rolls well (or worse, fudges against the SoD caster all the time) the caster is in for some hurting.

I guess it depends on the size of the dungeons you're used to. If the standard sized room is 30'x30' or less (which is the case in most of the pregen dungeons I've run in the last decade), the range doesn't really matter, because you're still always only one move action away.

(Just read color spray. Don't know why I thought it affected a certain number of HD. Must have been mixing it up with Hypnotic Pattern.)


It's funny...I came into Pathfinder after spending about a year playing in Arcana Evolved, where as spell casters leveled up then eventually got unlimited castings of multiple levels of spells...I think the highest being fourth or fifth. So when I saw the zero level thing I was actually pretty dissapointed. It's something if I had the time I would go through and houserule, as it's really not enough in my opinion, but at the same time, it's not enough for me to throw my PF books against the nearest wall and have a tantrum about either.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
To me, the use of unlimited cantrips/orisons makes no sense, and tends to make classes like the rogue less useful (you dont need a specialist to open a lock when your spellcaster can simply and repeatedly acid it open).

Good way to get a trap sprung on you. Just dumping acid is the equivlent of the fighter bashing the door down. they have a similar lack of finesse.


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There is always a risk to applying physics or chemistry to the fantasy world.

In the real world different acids are more effective against different materials. Acids that are very good at dissolving metal are not the same acids that are very good at dissolving living tissues. So if you assume the real world chemistry applies, then it would seem reasonable that the acid in "acid splash" is the kind of acid that dissolves tissue rapidly. (Actually strong bases are typically much better at dissolving flesh than acids are, so "Acid Splash" is probably a misnomer for a blast of Drano or something like it.)

But of course in the fantasy world of Pathfinder acid is just acid and there is no mention that I know of of bases which dissolve things. It's just acid.

Since trying to apply "real world" chemistry just opens up a whole can of worms, it's probably best to just stick with the RAW on acid splash, and by RAW you can't dissolve locks because the acid in acid splash doesn't overcome their hardness.

If you want to explain that you can say that the acid in acid splash is magically optimized to dissolve flesh and that it doesn't last long enough for it to dissolve metal.

I like unlimited cantrips for the same reasons others have listed. It "feels" more wizardly to always be able to do SOME magic. I have never liked the Vancian magic system and prefer a more mana-based system with rechargeable mana. But PF is what it is, and the unlimited cantrips are at least good for flavor and do mean my wizard can cast acid splash instead of trying to use a sling. That's something.

I don't quite agree with the idea that wizards in 1e and 2e were "useless" once they cast their one magic missile, sleep or color spray. At very low levels a wizard's BAB limitations haven't yet come into play much, if at all, so all it takes to make a wizard somewhat combat useful at low levels is a 12 or 14 Dex and a masterwork crossbow.

I do think there should be a feat which allows wizards and/or sorcerers to apply their intelligence bonus to a ranged attack in place of dexterity. That just seems reasonable to me. At the cost of a feat your wizard can contribute in combat when their magic is depleted. Doesn't sound overpowering at all, and I doubt any power gamers would ever take that feat anyway since it would mean not taking a different power gaming feat. Plus it would open up the way for a whole set of ray-casting wizard/sorcerer concepts.


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Godwyn wrote:

My problem with them being unlimited is in comparison to the rogue talent minor magic. Any orison known unlimited at level 1, versus a special talent to learn 1 0 level orison, 3x a day.

Your objection is that primary casters are better an aspect of magic then rogues? Seriously?

Liberty's Edge

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brassbaboon wrote:
There is always a risk to applying physics or chemistry to the fantasy world.

Especially to a fantasy world where real-world physics are so very, very clearly not in effect.

Some facts about Golarion (and all D&D worlds) that many people blithely ignore when applying real-world physics:
1) Darkness is not the absence of light, but the presence of darkness, begging the question Is darkness a wave or a particle?

2) Cold in not the absence of heat, but a force of its own. Cold can radiate and be projected in D&D. Try that in the real world. Physics won't support your cause.

3) The ability of an object being carried to survive a fall from a great height is highly dependent on the amount and intensity of life experience of the person carrying the object. Unlike the real world, where a glass bottle carried in the pocket of a Special Forces veteran of a dozen campaigns is exactly as likely to shatter on impact as a bottle carried in the pocket of convenience store clerk.

This is why anyone who claims that something must happen in Golarion because of "physics" should get a cocked eyebrow in response, and perhaps a "Whatchutalkin'about, Willis?"

There are no physics in Pathfinder. What you want is metaphysics.

Dark Archive

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I run my cantrip/orisons where they get their 4 uses per day, but they can cast any spell as needed from their cantrip/orison list. So a cleric can cast all sorts of minor magic as he needs it.
It increases flexibility of use while limiting the cheese of spamming create water, etc.

The wizard/sorceress "should always have things to do" argument should have been resolved by wizard school/bloodlines and not cantrips. I think it was a bad design consideration giving any casting classes magic spam ability.

If they felt they needed a minor spammable combat ability then give them that in their class/school/bloodline write-up, unlimited minor utility breaks on many, many levels (imo).


Auxmaulous wrote:

I run my cantrip/orisons where they get their 4 uses per day, but they can cast any spell as needed from their cantrip/orison list. So a cleric can cast all sorts of minor magic as he needs it.

It increases flexibility of use while limiting the cheese of spamming create water, etc.

The wizard/sorceress "should always have things to do" argument should have been resolved by wizard school/bloodlines and not cantrips. I think it was a bad design consideration giving any casting classes magic spam ability.

If they felt they needed a minor spammable combat ability then give them that in their class/school/bloodline write-up, unlimited minor utility breaks on many, many levels (imo).

This is worth trying out too.

Dark Archive

My players like it so far, it gives them the ability to do some minor tricks (no spell prep) as they are needed without creating a slew of other problems.

If the number of uses (4) per day seems too low DMs could also allow consider allowing prime casting stat bonus spell slots as they currently are applied to other spell levels. That should allow more than enough uses to launch a few minor attacks if you are out of everything else while still keeping the flexibility of being able to create Light or Read Magic as needed without spell prep.

Liberty's Edge

Auxmaulous wrote:
The wizard/sorceress "should always have things to do" argument should have been resolved by wizard school/bloodlines and not cantrips. I think it was a bad design consideration giving any casting classes magic spam ability.

How has it been resolved by schools/bloodlines? (3+StatMod)/day isn't unlimited, and can be burned through in one battle.

That was actually one of things I was most sad to see go from Beta when Core came out, the unlimited use of the school/bloodline first level ability.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

He said 'should have' not 'has been' resolved. I agree entirely, school/bloodline/domain powers should have been unlimited and 0-level spells limited. I like your houserule Aux, I think I may adopt it for my 3.5 games.

Dark Archive

TriOmegaZero wrote:
He said 'should have' not 'has been' resolved. I agree entirely, school/bloodline/domain powers should have been unlimited and 0-level spells limited. I like your houserule Aux, I think I may adopt it for my 3.5 games.

Thanks TOZ

Yeah, I do feel one huge improvement in design philosphy over 2nd ed was giving casters something to do at all times, I just feel it should have been resovlved by the specifics of the casters choice of school/bloodline/etc. Ex - Evo would get the best spam damage type of attack as a function of school, and then working down for all the other schools - but not putting that burden on cantrip selection.

It works, it gives my players some choices (which is very nice at low level) and also prevents the scenario of the desert warlord having several 1st level clerics chained up to large basins as they spam create water 24/7.

The Exchange

I love the unlimited cantrips. i actually played in a game where the party wizard only had an Int of 11. The character was obvious comic relief until he used his cantrips to steal away the mcguffin and save a kingdom. The character was amusing to no end.
Also, I rarely play wizards, but one of the high level wizards I ever played in 3.5, I actually considered a prestige class just to get unlimited cantrips. It really makes you feel more magical to have these little effects to play with.

The Exchange

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Colour Spray is a pretty good level 1 spell... unless you happen to be fighting constructs, ooze, plants, undead, or vermin... that [mind-affecting] tag can be a bit of a buzz-kill then... So you'll either need a second offensive spell to use against all those guys or, even better, a DM who keeps forgetting the limits on mind-affecting spells... ;)

Unlimited cantrips and orisons are great though - easily the most powerful tools in your magic bag if you know what you're doing (and have a DM who supports, rather than punishes, 'out of combat' thinking). Their utility can rock, and I'll agree with those who've said being able to magic stuff for pure fluff without the other players calling you out for 'wasting resources' makes playing the magic dude fun again. Personally I think the 'damage' cantrips are the weakest of the lot... but blasting stuff is always fun, and impresses the heck out of the locals... ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Auxmaulous wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
He said 'should have' not 'has been' resolved. I agree entirely, school/bloodline/domain powers should have been unlimited and 0-level spells limited. I like your houserule Aux, I think I may adopt it for my 3.5 games.
Thanks TOZ

Yeah, sorry, I misread you.

Quote:
Yeah, I do feel one huge improvement in design philosphy over 2nd ed was giving casters something to do at all times, I just feel it should have been resovlved by the specifics of the casters choice of school/bloodline/etc. Ex - Evo would get the best spam damage type of attack as a function of school, and then working down for all the other schools - but not putting that burden on cantrip selection.

I can see your point, but at the same time a wizard/sorc. who can always read and detect magic, telekinesis small objects, and spice up his everyday actions with magic really fits my conception of "wizards" in a way that the 1st through 3.5 wizards never did, so I like the unlimited cantrips.

From my POV, a first level character with a PC class is a professional who will be taken seriously (like deadly serious) by the average peasant commoner. The way I run games, that 1st level commoner farmer is terrified of a wizard, not because he's seen one throw a fireball (but he's heard they can do that), but because probably at least once (and likely far more often, given the generous number of hedge wizards in pretty much any published setting) in his life he was in a village of some size and saw a wizard magically steamclean his clothes while he was wearing them after getting off his horse, or open a door with a wave of his hand, or step out a dark tavern and fill the world with magical light.

A guy who casually and regularly does the impossible, things a commoner can only dream about doing, is pretty terrifying.

Quote:
It works, it gives my players some choices (which is very nice at low level) and also prevents the scenario of the desert warlord having several 1st level clerics chained up to large basins as they spam create water 24/7.

Dude, that's an awesome adventure hook. You just know their god has sent a message to Their church via the oracle hotlines. Even now this peaceful church is looking for a group of adventurers to go rescue their people. Cue PCs, go!

Also, think about the churches of desert communities. If even the acolytes and adepts can supply the people of town with endless water, always filling their jugs with a prayer to their god -- oh man, think of how fanatical the followers will be! The blessing of water could be the holy sacrament that is the key to that church's temporal power and justify a good aligned theocracy. Concrete, physical evidence of that God's love and concern for his flock.

Plus, visualize it. A massive door at the side of the temple, flanked by gargantuan idols and this incredible long line of peasants and the poor lined up with their empty jugs, sweltering in the sun. And standing on pedestals along the path are clerics preaching the gospel of the faith. Slowly but inexorably the line moves forward, each of the faithful waiting for his chance to hear the benediction of his god, hold up his jug, and receive proof of the eternal power that watches over him.

That's freaking awesome.

Plus, who cares if the god in question is Lawful Evil and seems to demand that a lot of "sinners" and "heretics" die? He makes water in the desert.


I'm pretty sure that clerics gain their orisons from their gods too, so chaining them up to spam create water would work just long enough for their god to realize what was going on, and that would likely not be viewed very kindly by that god.

Now, chaining up wizards, witches or sorcerers... that's got some promise.

The more I think about Aux's post, the more I like it. I'm going to bounce it off my group to see what they think.


brassbaboon wrote:

I'm pretty sure that clerics gain their orisons from their gods too, so chaining them up to spam create water would work just long enough for their god to realize what was going on, and that would likely not be viewed very kindly by that god.

Now, chaining up wizards, witches or sorcerers... that's got some promise.

The more I think about Aux's post, the more I like it. I'm going to bounce it off my group to see what they think.

Hence the "Que PC's" up above. :-) - Most gods do not act directly but guide chance and fate.


My group personally finds this to be one of the greatest improvements to play ever. It really helps make mages feel like magic users at low levels.

Love your storytelling there Galbraithe. It makes me want to play in that setting/scenario.

As an alternate to the great story hook idea, if you are seriously bothered by the endless water creation, just take a page from DnD in there original desert setting and say "Create Water doesnt work here". A super simple fix for your desert campaigns.

Dark Archive

Doomdspair` wrote:
As an alternate to the great story hook idea, if you are seriously bothered by the endless water creation, just take a page from DnD in there original desert setting and say "Create Water doesnt work here". A super simple fix for your desert campaigns.

That is a very subjective/fiat approach, I rather have a cleaner re-write that defines the ability (and limits) better than "it doesn't work here".

The problem goes beyond using the spell in the desert - there are a number of idiotic uses for the unlimited creation of water. Filling up a room/well/location so you can float up and out, using CW to fill in warrens, small caves. It is just a little too rife with potential abuse.

The biggest culprits are unlimited: Light, Purify (or Putrefy) Food and Drink, Create Water, and Mending. All of which can shut more than a few industries.

I understand the game doesn't have much (or any) sort of internal logic - spells replace the need for locks, walls, guards, food prodcution, etc. These are spells with limited use, where that functions as form of control. The spells I just referenced are not limited 1st or 2nd level spells which attack internal consistency - they are 0 level unlimited use spells. Sorry, it just creates too many problems + too stupid to use as written, my opinion of course

Also the ability for any Cleric to Stabilize 4 + wis mod/day is better than "oh yeah, I had unlimited stabilizes yesterday, but today I can't use it because I didn't prep it". So you go from hundreds of uses a day to none at all due to spell prep. It also makes the role of cleric/healer just better if he always has this ability available, even if it is limited in daily use (like all his other spells).

Even with spamming energy attacks (wiz/sorc) as a DM I have to take special consideration how that impacts the gaming environment. I need to determine if they are simply going to be attacks that can only target foes or if they are effective at attacking their environment. Wearing down wood doors, walls, etc - per minute/10-min/hour, but once I had that figured out it became a non-issue. Unlimited weak energy attacks are much less disruptive to the low-mid level gaming environment than unlimited water creation, repair, purification of contaminated food and water, etc.

Just one DMs opinion.


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Anyone wanting to create an industry out of any of the cantrips is going to be in for very long days. In the case of create water, 2 gallons/level is probably enough to comfortably keep a party of adventurers going, but to keep even a small village, with all of it's people, livestock, and crops, sustained by it would take a good eight hours per day every day unless you had an army of adepts/clerics/druids. Even a 20th level caster is only churning out 40 gallons per casting, and in the middle of a desert, that is barely enough to sustain the people of a village, and won't even touch the needs of the live stock or crops.

Light, while extremely useful to an adventuring party, lasts a minute. Not a minute/level, even, just a single minute. So, for most people, and even many adventuring parties, an everburning torch is still the best long term option.

All of the other cantrips have the same limitations. They can be very useful in limited applications, but mass scale operations would require more than simply having unlimited access to them. They would require a lot of casters and organization to sustain and direct those casters, with a significant portion of any profits going to pay the costs of the organization.


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I think the people that don't like the spamming are having trouble with 1st level characters spamming spells all day long.

For those who don't like it (I like it, personally), may I suggest instead Cantrips/Orisons 3+Casting Stat Modifier/day from levels 1 to 5, and then unlimited from 6 and higher? That's still a bucket of spells at low level (probably around 7 each per cantrip they can get each morning/know), but it's not unlimited. Beyond 5th level, they're at the point where unlimited 0-level spells are just not that nifty or useful.


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my wizard and a sorc managed to take down the party bbeg with fly and acid splash, it beats spell resistance, and the monster was busy eating the paladin and the fighter, and in the end it was too much to roll for like 700 rounds but there was nothing I could do except swat the air like some sort of innefectual godzilla. has acid rained down upon my already grotesque face!!!

i was a 5th level annis hag madam eva from ravenloft

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