[UM] Walter's Guide to the Magus


Advice

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45ur4 wrote:

1) Arcane points are vital, also you can't use your Black Blade's pool for your Magus stuff (arcane accuracy and accurate strike, am I the only who gives them this much importance?). Secondly, my concern is that you are going to need to enchant your weapon as your first action in combat every time (an increasing necessity with leveling up), using your swift action that could be used for many other things. Look, the Magus has the possibility to get into melee and make a fullattack on his first turn much more than any other class, thanks to bladed dash/dimension door/force hook charge, putting the Magus in more need of his Arcana for hitting more than your arcane pool to enchant a little. I concede though that if the battle is very long or you have some preparation time before, you can enchant it and spend no swift action.

Also as I said before, arcane pool becomes less useful by advancing in levels because you can already have enchanted permanently your blade and save your swift action for quickened spell/arcana to hit. Arcane pool saves your money, but if the blackblade stuck with its +5 enchantment only, it will waste your time (action economy) that consequently hurts your money (to spend to get more protections or potions or whatever derives from losing your first turn to buff yourself).

First Note: yeah, I know that Xum than eventually will remark me that the blackblade can be enchanted normally. I'm on the same advice here as you Xum, but you can easily see that we are the only two that thinks that's doable...

Second Note: I'm expecting an errata or FAQ answer to blackblade enhancement, this eventually will change my judgement, so until then I'm not going to defend anymore my position. If the BBlade will be enhanceable than I'm going to admit that I were wrong.

2) arcane accuracy and accurate strike for striking true. Resistances and Immunities are a common issue after level 10, even for shocking grasp is a problem. Frostbite and chilltouch are low rated for what they can do, even if they are not...

I think a major part of why we disagree on this is because of playstyle. I tend to value longer term or passive buffs far more highly than very short term. The additional passive buffs from wondrous items and armour, more than balance out the loss of Pool points in my opinion. Honestly the Bladebound archetype is most valuable in campaigns with long "work days" and or long encounters.

I'm honestly not as concerned about action economy either... I find that with a tendency towards having a relatively high init, and being fairly squishy, if you use the "pounce" options right off the bat you beat the party meatshield in and out damage them on round one. That tends to get you killed so I prefer to take a round to buff up a bit and pop off a control type spell (I know it's not RAW but my group allows using an action as a lesser action, so Cast(Std), AP(move>swift), BB strike(swift) is doable), then charge in.

I'm not trying to say that Bladebound is the optimal way to go, but I would say it's pretty close to an even trade for what you lose.


@Kazejin: spell combat does not work because it requires a light or one handed weapon to be held. Maybe with Spellstrike.

@Froze_man: yes, different playstyles. I had bad influences from the Swiftblade.
I tend to hate Bladebound because I felt 'robbed'. The blackblade was cool, its abilities even better and RP part is what I really loved (and still love), but what it takes... Energy Attunement is worth of concerning though.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Brow Gasher in UC looks like a possible green or blue spell. It causes bleed damage of 1/2 the magus level and the victime is increasingly visually impaired up to blindness at the 5th round. Nasty spell against non fast healers.

I think I will have to spend some time going through the spells and rating them.


45ur4 wrote:
@Kazejin: spell combat does not work because it requires a light or one handed weapon to be held. Maybe with Spellstrike.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, and makes me wonder if you actually read it.

First of all: Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.

Second: You can have a weapon in one hand, have the other hand empty, and have natural attacks on other parts of your body. Talons can be on your feet. Your head can have horns to gore attack with. You can have a tail. You can have wings. Polymorph is a magical thing.


In case anyone needs a more detailed explanation of what I'm actually talking about on the previous page, let me give a basic example.

If you wielded two short shorts, and also had two wings that granted you two wing buffet attacks: you would be allowed (as a full-attack action) to use all main hand attacks, all off-hand attacks, and all natural attacks, in the same turn. When manufactured weapons and natural weapons are combined in this fashion, all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, even if they are listed as primary. If you don't know the difference between primary and secondary natural attacks, look it up. But the point is, you are allowed to fight with however many weapons you can realistically hold, and also strike with natural attacks in the same round. There is one specific limitation, and that is the hand that holds the weapon can't be used as a natural attack if you already used the weapon. (In other words, if you have two claws, but they are holding a greatsword, then you can't swing the claws because they are holding something. But if you have talons on your feet, you can still easily use those, or use a tail attack, or gore attack, etc.)

Again, if anyone needs rules quotes, I can provide them; but I'm leaving them out for spacial reasons right now. Bear in mind, the Bestiary rules for natural attacks are the correct ones. (There is a discrepancy in the CRB that did get clarified later).

Now, take that logic into consideration -- Also consider that Spell Combat functions similarly to two-weapon fighting, but replaces the off-hand weapon with a spell being cast. One can therefore argue that during Spell Combat, you should be allowed to do the following (not necessarily in this order):

1) Cast your off-hand spell.
2) Perform all normal weapon attacks with your main weapon.
3) Perform any natural attack that doesn't involve the two arms needed for Spell Combat; as per rules of combining weapon attacks with natural attacks.

Does that make more sense to you?


I actually read, thanks for caring. But now is there clear evidence that your goal is to defeat the purpose of Spell Combat. Spell Combat in fact says taht

From d20pfsrd wrote:
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

and goes on saying

From d20pfsrd wrote:
As a full-round action,[b] he can make all of his attacks[b] with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).

See that? No mention to natural attacks.

Also this discussion was made many times since playtest and developer said that the reference to 'two weapon fighting' it's just pure fluff to compare this new mechanic, spellcombat, with an old mechanic that the players are familiar with.
As said, you can take this as a valid point and use spellcombat just at it is, a full round action that makes you attack with your melee weapon (a reference to the light or one handed weapon, you can also notice that's singular -> melee weapon) and cast a spell, or just ignore everything, abuse the phrase "..Much like TWF..." and keep going on your way until an official clarification will be made.

Note: And I'm not saying that I don't agree with you entirely. That's simply what was said. And please stop wondering.


45ur4 wrote:

See that? No mention to natural attacks.

Also this discussion was made many times since playtest and developer said that the reference to 'two weapon fighting' it's just pure fluff to compare this new mechanic, spellcombat, with an old mechanic that the players are familiar with.
As said, you can take this as a valid point and use spellcombat just at it is, a full round action that makes you attack with your melee weapon (a reference to the light or one handed weapon, you can also notice that's singular -> melee weapon) and cast a spell, or just ignore everything, abuse the phrase "..Much like TWF..." and keep going on your way until an official clarification will be made.

Note: And I'm not saying that I don't agree with you entirely. That's simply what was said. And please stop wondering.

It's not defeating the purpose, its expanding the context. It's calling attention to a possibility, which I did state openly, the RAW isn't particularly favorable to. It's just a possible viewpoint. The phrase "one could argue" doesn't mean "lol I found a loophole." Give me a break.

Regardless though, comparing what a magus would do with it to what a polymorph'd fighter would do with it, its not a stretch of the game balance by any means.


Kazejin wrote:

In case anyone needs a more detailed explanation of what I'm actually talking about on the previous page, let me give a basic example.

If you wielded two short shorts, and also had two wings that granted you two wing buffet attacks: you would be allowed (as a full-attack action) to use all main hand attacks, all off-hand attacks, and all natural attacks, in the same turn. When manufactured weapons and natural weapons are combined in this fashion, all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, even if they are listed as primary. If you don't know the difference between primary and secondary natural attacks, look it up. But the point is, you are allowed to fight with however many weapons you can realistically hold, and also strike with natural attacks in the same round. There is one specific limitation, and that is the hand that holds the weapon can't be used as a natural attack if you already used the weapon. (In other words, if you have two claws, but they are holding a greatsword, then you can't swing the claws because they are holding something. But if you have talons on your feet, you can still easily use those, or use a tail attack, or gore attack, etc.)

Again, if anyone needs rules quotes, I can provide them; but I'm leaving them out for spacial reasons right now. Bear in mind, the Bestiary rules for natural attacks are the correct ones. (There is a discrepancy in the CRB that did get clarified later).

Now, take that logic into consideration -- Also consider that Spell Combat functions similarly to two-weapon fighting, but replaces the off-hand weapon with a spell being cast. One can therefore argue that during Spell Combat, you should be allowed to do the following (not necessarily in this order):

1) Cast your off-hand spell.
2) Perform all normal weapon attacks with your main weapon.
3) Perform any natural attack that doesn't involve the two arms needed for Spell Combat; as per rules of combining weapon attacks with natural attacks.

Does that make more sense to you?

Totally doable.

Dark Archive

45ur4 wrote:

I actually read, thanks for caring. But now is there clear evidence that your goal is to defeat the purpose of Spell Combat. Spell Combat in fact says taht

From d20pfsrd wrote:
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

and goes on saying

From d20pfsrd wrote:
As a full-round action,[b] he can make all of his attacks[b] with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).

See that? No mention to natural attacks.

Also this discussion was made many times since playtest and developer said that the reference to 'two weapon fighting' it's just pure fluff to compare this new mechanic, spellcombat, with an old mechanic that the players are familiar with.
As said, you can take this as a valid point and use spellcombat just at it is, a full round action that makes you attack with your melee weapon (a reference to the light or one handed weapon, you can also notice that's singular -> melee weapon) and cast a spell, or just ignore everything, abuse the phrase "..Much like TWF..." and keep going on your way until an official clarification will be made.

Note: And I'm not saying that I don't agree with you entirely. That's simply what was said. And please stop wondering.

I'm actually going to have to disagree with you here.

Natural attacks are completely outside the iterative attacks, TWF, spellcombat world and have their own specific rules on their use.
As the devs have stated multiple times, whenever you take ANY full attack action you can add any Natural attacks you have as well (provided they use different limbs).
If a Magus with a natural attack can makes a full attack action for any reason he can perform his natural attack (at Bab -5) anytime during that action.

Now with that said there are no rules stating that he can use those natural attacks to deliver his spells with spellcombat and that is a question I'm waiting to answer before building a natural weapon using magus. (If you can it makes Changeling monk/magus frighteningly effective).


You are right Kazejin, I apologyze. You are not two-weaponfighting. That phrase on the Corelubook is wrong, the bestiary is the correct one.


45ur4 wrote:
You are right Kazejin, I apologyze. You are not two-weaponfighting. That phrase on the Corelubook is wrong, the bestiary is the correct one.

Ah I see, you were thinking about the CRB ruling. Now I see why you thought I was trying to break the function of Spell Combat. Yeah, from that perspective, I definitely feel what you were thinking.

But now that we're on the same page, do you see the potential?

Now, one has to ask... if this does work, how will the Magus assume a form that grants him natural attacks, but still leaves him with two hands to perform Spell Combat with?

Monstrous Physique. The spell is rated so poorly in the guide, and I believe that's because its blind to the potential that I just mentioned. Once you consider the correct functionality of natural attacks, suddenly the Monstrous Physique spells start to look a lot more functional, don't they?

In particular, I'd imagine a Harpy form, and this can be done even with just Monstrous Physique I. You still have your two arms for spell combat, but your feet become natural Talon attacks that do 1d6 each. And you have wings to fly with now.


And sorry to double-post again, but I have a bit more ground to break, now that I've gotten some support for the idea.

Natural Attacks usually apply strength to damage, which means the Monstrous Physique strategy might actually cause Strength Magi to become superior to Dervish Magi. Or would it?

Remember that nifty little item called Amulet of Mighty Fists? It states that you can give the amulet a weapon enhancement, and/or a magic property, and that enhancement and/or property will be carried into your unarmed strikes, and your natural attacks.

Where am I going with this?

Pathfinder Society Field Guide page 50 wrote:

Agile (Melee Weapon Special Ability)

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Price +1 bonus

Description:
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive.
A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply
her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in
place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is
not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced
for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can
only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the
Weapon Finesse feat.

Natural attacks are always considered applicable to Weapon Finesse, therefore you can have Agile natural attacks, giving you dex-to-damage with natural attacks.


@Mathwei: For spellcombat, as for now you can do spellcombat with light or one handed weapon, so you being a monk you wield your unarmed strike which is a light weapon

from CRB wrote:


Unarmed strikes count as light weapons
(for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

, then you can combine your others natural attacks with spellcombat. Maybe I misunderstood your question?

@Kazejin: Yeah, even Form of the Dragon becomes more appealing suddenly (though it's more tricky, because you have to drop a weapon, polymorph, then take it back) along with beast shape (girallon) and undead anatomy.

Dark Archive

Kazejin wrote:

And sorry to double-post again, but I have a bit more ground to break, now that I've gotten some support for the idea.

Natural Attacks usually apply strength to damage, which means the Monstrous Physique strategy might actually cause Strength Magi to become superior to Dervish Magi. Or would it?

Remember that nifty little item called Amulet of Mighty Fists? It states that you can give the amulet a weapon enhancement, and/or a magic property, and that enhancement and/or property will be carried into your unarmed strikes, and your natural attacks.

Where am I going with this?

Pathfinder Society Field Guide page 50 wrote:

Agile (Melee Weapon Special Ability)

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Price +1 bonus

Description:
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive.
A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply
her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in
place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is
not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced
for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can
only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the
Weapon Finesse feat.

Natural attacks are always considered applicable to Weapon Finesse, therefore you can have Agile natural attacks, giving you dex-to-damage with natural attacks.

You can use that but it's a bad choice.

It's a feat tax since now you have to take weapon finesse, an expensive choice since the AoMF is expensive (especially since you only get to use it when this spell is active) and your Dex-to-Damage is actually going to be Half your dex to damage (natural weapons only get to add half strength or with this amulet half Dex to damage).

It's all doable but the benefits do not out weigh the costs.

@45UR4, my question there is since spell combat refers to a SINGLE weapon being used to deliver the spell and most natural attack options (other than Bite) tend to have multiple choices (2 claws, 2 wings, 2 talons,, etc) how does that interact?


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

You can use that but it's a bad choice.

It's a feat tax since now you have to take weapon finesse, an expensive choice since the AoMF is expensive (especially since you only get to use it when this spell is active) and your Dex-to-Damage is actually going to be Half your dex to damage (natural weapons only get to add half strength or with this amulet half Dex to damage).

It's all doable but the benefits do not out weigh the costs.

How is it a bad choice? Dervish Magi already need Weapon Finesse, because its a prereq for Dervish Dance. I'll grant you that it is expensive, but careful Magi can save enough money on other things to make it plausible.

Weapon Finesse doesn't work like Weapon Focus. W-Focus is specific to each weapon. But weapon finesse applies to ALL weapons, so long as they are finesse-able, so to speak.

CRB pg136 wrote:

Weapon Finesse (Combat)

You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as
opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier,
whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size
category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of
your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield,
its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

So a Dervish Magi doesn't lose a feat. He already needed to have the feat for his build anyway.

Dark Archive

Kazejin wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

You can use that but it's a bad choice.

It's a feat tax since now you have to take weapon finesse, an expensive choice since the AoMF is expensive (especially since you only get to use it when this spell is active) and your Dex-to-Damage is actually going to be Half your dex to damage (natural weapons only get to add half strength or with this amulet half Dex to damage).

It's all doable but the benefits do not out weigh the costs.

How is it a bad choice? Dervish Magi already need Weapon Finesse, because its a prereq for Dervish Dance. I'll grant you that it is expensive, but careful Magi can save enough money on other things to make it plausible.

Weapon Finesse doesn't work like Weapon Focus. W-Focus is specific to each weapon. But weapon finesse applies to ALL weapons, so long as they are finesse-able, so to speak.

CRB pg136 wrote:

Weapon Finesse (Combat)

You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as
opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier,
whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size
category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of
your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield,
its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

So a Dervish Magi doesn't lose a feat. He already needed to have the feat for his build anyway.

Never said that they would lose a feat just that they are now REQUIRED to take it. That was also for the inevitable comment that agile enchant is too good.

The meat of my disagreement is you are spending all of that to get HALF your dex added to your damage instead of spending nothing to get half your strength added.
If you're going to focus any energy on Natural Attacks always go with a strength build. It's cheaper to pay for, faster to start using it and easier to upgrade.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Never said that they would lose a feat just that they are now REQUIRED to take it.

Do you know what a Dervish Magus is? A Dervish Magus is a magus who uses the Dervish Dance feat with a Scimitar.

The Dervish Dance feat has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite. This mean ALL Dervish Magi builds ALREADY HAVE Weapon Finesse. They were REQUIRED to take Weapon Finesse a very VERY long time ago. The Agile idea DOES NOT in any way shape or form, hurt them in this regard. They already had this feat a long time ago, probably at level 1.

Understand? If you're not a Dervish Magi, then its common sense that you don't want Agile. But Dervish Builds function on low strength, and high dex. The higher the level you go, the easier wonderous items become to craft. AoMF isn't that hard to have your party crafter spend some time on, and that cuts the price in half for you. It's more workable than you think.

Edit:
Furthermore, Monstrous Physique will easily last an entire encounter on just one casting. It's one minute per caster level, and the absolute soonest you'll get it is Lv7. 7 minutes. That's 70 rounds. If your combat lasts a significant period of time longer than that, your party is doing it wrong.

Considering wands, scrolls, etc and the fairly standard 3-4 encounter day, combined with Spell Recall and such, you can have M-Physique on in all your encounters. And even if you suspect it will be a long day, just save a few for later. If the Agile ability lasts most of your given encounters that day, it's not a waste. At all.

Edit again: The second half of my edit is geared towards higher levels than 7, mind you. Which actually opens up the higher M-Physique spells, which can grant you even more attacks to use, with clever selection; thus making Agile factor in even more.

Dark Archive

Kazejin wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Never said that they would lose a feat just that they are now REQUIRED to take it.

Do you know what a Dervish Magus is? A Dervish Magus is a magus who uses the Dervish Dance feat with a Scimitar.

The Dervish Dance feat has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite. This mean ALL Dervish Magi builds ALREADY HAVE Weapon Finesse. They were REQUIRED to take Weapon Finesse a very VERY long time ago. The Agile idea DOES NOT in any way shape or form, hurt them in this regard. They already had this feat a long time ago, probably at level 1.

Understand? If you're not a Dervish Magi, then its common sense that you don't want Agile. But Dervish Builds function on low strength, and high dex. The higher the level you go, the easier wonderous items become to craft. AoMF isn't that hard to have your party crafter spend some time on, and that cuts the price in half for you. It's more workable than you think.

Edit:
Furthermore, Monstrous Physique will easily last an entire encounter on just one casting. It's one minute per caster level, and the absolute soonest you'll get it is Lv7. 7 minutes. That's 70 rounds. If your combat lasts a significant period of time longer than that, your party is doing it wrong.

Considering wands, scrolls, etc and the fairly standard 3-4 encounter day, combined with Spell Recall and such, you can have M-Physique on in all your encounters. And even if you suspect it will be a long day, just save a few for later. If the Agile ability lasts most of your given encounters that day, it's not a waste. At all.

Edit again: The second half of my edit is geared towards higher levels than 7, mind you. Which actually opens up the higher M-Physique spells, which can grant you even more attacks to use, with clever selection; thus making Agile factor in even more.

Well first, stop yelling and read everything you just wrote and what I said.

1. You take Dervish Dance so you can add your Dex to damage (making High Dex builds more preferable)

2. Agile Enchant does the same thing so it adds NOTHING to your weapon damage.

3. When you apply the Agile enchant to your natural weapons it only applies half your dex to your damage when you make a full attack.

Finally, You are spending 5K+ and giving up your neck slot for at most a +4 to damage on at most 2 secondary attacks (-5 to hit) but ONLY when you have cast a specific spell.

Now, as I said it's doable but the costs outweigh the benefits.

Clarification: The only humanoid form you could currently take that would benefit from this (Harpy) only has 2 natural weapons (talons on feet) that any GM would be well within rights saying you need to be flying to use. And since you don't have or qualify for Flyby Attack you would only get 1 attack per round while flying.


Kazejin wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Never said that they would lose a feat just that they are now REQUIRED to take it.

Do you know what a Dervish Magus is? A Dervish Magus is a magus who uses the Dervish Dance feat with a Scimitar.

The Dervish Dance feat has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite. This mean ALL Dervish Magi builds ALREADY HAVE Weapon Finesse. They were REQUIRED to take Weapon Finesse a very VERY long time ago. The Agile idea DOES NOT in any way shape or form, hurt them in this regard. They already had this feat a long time ago, probably at level 1.

Understand? If you're not a Dervish Magi, then its common sense that you don't want Agile. But Dervish Builds function on low strength, and high dex. The higher the level you go, the easier wonderous items become to craft. AoMF isn't that hard to have your party crafter spend some time on, and that cuts the price in half for you. It's more workable than you think.

Edit:
Furthermore, Monstrous Physique will easily last an entire encounter on just one casting. It's one minute per caster level, and the absolute soonest you'll get it is Lv7. 7 minutes. That's 70 rounds. If your combat lasts a significant period of time longer than that, your party is doing it wrong.

Considering wands, scrolls, etc and the fairly standard 3-4 encounter day, combined with Spell Recall and such, you can have M-Physique on in all your encounters. And even if you suspect it will be a long day, just save a few for later. If the Agile ability lasts most of your given encounters that day, it's not a waste. At all.

Edit again: The second half of my edit is geared towards higher levels than 7, mind you. Which actually opens up the higher M-Physique spells, which can grant you even more attacks to use, with clever selection; thus making Agile factor in even more.

I think it's awesome. But there are very few choices, unfortunatelly... But IF you go this way, would be awesome to find some good Natural atacker that is small or shorter, for the dex bonus. But there aren't any. So, once again, dex based characters are hosed.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Agile Enchant does the same thing so it adds NOTHING to your weapon damage

Never said anything about using it for weapon damage.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
When you apply the Agile enchant to your natural weapons it only applies half your dex to your damage when you make a full attack

Correct, however this can still be optimized/improved upon.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Finally, You are spending 5K+ and giving up your neck slot for at most a +4 to damage on at most 2 secondary attacks (-5 to hit) but ONLY when you have cast a specific spell.

If your party has a Wondrous Item crafter, its 2.5k, which is rather cheap at any decent level. If you have the item specially crafted with a class restriction or an alignment restriction, you gain a 30% discount on top of that. See the magic item creation rules if you're unfamiliar with this. It's not hard by any means whatsoever to get just a basic Agile Amulet going. If your party has a Druid/Summoner/Ranger too, even better. Get him to send some Greater Magic Fang your way on top of it.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Now, as I said it's doable but the costs outweigh the benefits.

If you can't build onto it tactically, I suppose so. Not that its hard, however. I just broke it down to pretty easy terms.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Clarification: The only humanoid form you could currently take that would benefit from this (Harpy) only has 2 natural weapons (talons on feet)...

Harpy isn't the only one. I just gave it as a suggestion. And Talons aren't the only way to do this.

Any monstrous humanoid with a bite, tail attack, gore attack, ANY attack that doesn't require your arms, qualifies for usage here. By the way, M-Physique I is one spell, but it has higher level versions that expand your options further. And as I pointed out, its REALLY easy to have one of these ready for each encounter of an average day. Almost too easy.
=================================
Edit: I did just remember the size options are less favorable to dex builds, you got me there.
=================================

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
...that any GM would be well within rights saying you need to be flying to use. And since you don't have or qualify for Flyby Attack you would only get 1 attack per round while flying.

And no, your GM would fail pretty hard if he passes that ruling. You can't use your feet without flying? It's called a kick. Doesn't require jumping, doesn't require flying. It just requires basic coordination, or in game terms, natural weapon proficiency. And polymorph rules state that you automatically gain proficiency with any natural attack you gain from a polymorph effect.

Anything else?


Being that you're using at least one leg to stand up, yeah, as GM I would rule that you can't use both talon attacks unless you were flying. You came up with a kinda neat idea, you're really attached to it, that's obvious. It's not the OMFG end all and be all of creative ideas to ever cross these forums.

Dark Archive

Kazejin wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Agile Enchant does the same thing so it adds NOTHING to your weapon damage

Never said anything about using it for weapon damage.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
When you apply the Agile enchant to your natural weapons it only applies half your dex to your damage when you make a full attack
Correct, however this can still be optimized/improved upon.

Not really, you are pretty much at the end of the optimization you can do for dex to damage with this enchant. This is why Dervish Dance is so popular, it's the only other way to make Dex useful for melee damage.

Quote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Finally, You are spending 5K+ and giving up your neck slot for at most a +4 to damage on at most 2 secondary attacks (-5 to hit) but ONLY when you have cast a specific spell.
If your party has a Wondrous Item crafter, its 2.5k, which is rather cheap at any decent level. If you have the item specially crafted with a class restriction or an alignment restriction, you gain a 30% discount on top of that. See the magic item creation rules if you're unfamiliar with this. It's not hard by any means whatsoever to get just a basic Agile Amulet going. If your party has a Druid/Summoner/Ranger too, even better. Get him to send some Greater Magic Fang your way on top of it.

So your response is that it's not that expensive if you burn more feats, item crafting cheese and other party members resources to improve it from bad to average. (the best you can do with the spells you've listed is remove some of the penalty for trying to do it in the first place)

Quote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Now, as I said it's doable but the costs outweigh the benefits.
If you can't build onto it tactically, I suppose so. Not that its hard, however. I just broke it down to pretty easy terms.

I'm not seeing anything at all tactically here. All I see is you burning an excessive amount of resources to remove the penalties for trying to do this in the first place.

Quote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Clarification: The only humanoid form you could currently take that would benefit from this (Harpy) only has 2 natural weapons (talons on feet)...

Harpy isn't the only one. I just gave it as a suggestion. And Talons aren't the only way to do this.

Any monstrous humanoid with a bite, tail attack, gore attack, ANY attack that doesn't require your arms, qualifies for usage here. By the way, M-Physique I is one spell, but it has higher level versions that expand your options further. And as I pointed out, its REALLY easy to have one of these ready for each encounter of an average day. Almost too easy.

Yeah, pick one that has those. Go through the Beastiary and find any monstrous humanoid that has more than 2 of those, we'll wait.

As of right now the best you can come up with is the Gargoyle who has a Bite and a Gore or Harpy who has Talons(2). there are no Monstrous Humanoid forms with wingslap, tentacle, Pincers, Tailslap or sting.
This spell will at best give you 2 extra attacks per round at nasty penalties (and you can't take Multiattack or weapon focus to offset it either). If you wish to spend all your spell slots and/or arcane pool to use it... well that's up to you.

Quote:


=================================
Edit: I did just remember the size options are less favorable to dex builds, you got me there.
=================================
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

...that any GM would be well within rights saying you need to be flying to use. And since you don't have or qualify for Flyby Attack you would only get 1 attack per round while flying.

And no, your GM would fail pretty hard if he passes that ruling. You can't use your feet without flying? It's called a kick. Doesn't require jumping, doesn't require flying. It just requires basic coordination, or in game terms, natural weapon proficiency. And polymorph rules state that you automatically gain proficiency with any natural attack you gain from a polymorph effect.

Anything else?

One kick is normal and fine trying to do 2 kicks at once requires you to jump, fly or use rake as the Dev's have ruled. Go search for the Deionychus dinosaur posts. This is why all the creatures in the beastiary who attack with their feet either fly, pounce or rake.

The polymorph rules state you get proficiency with them but it doesn't give you the feats that let you do everything with them the critter does.

At BEST I see you picking up 2 more attacks at low damage dice and +4 damage from Dex (you'll be wearing armor and that will max you at +8 Dex mod). The way you have no described it all at the cost of your neck slot, an item crafting feat, two different spells from two different classes, x amount of gold and it all falls apart with a basic 3rd level spell (dispel Magic).

Have fun with that.


Kazejin,

Though I think you've found sth interesting and there is merit in your idea, if you keep provoking the other posters, you'll get it right back.
Tone down your argument (I can practically see you getting frustrated) and keep it friendly. I think then you'll get better responses and more people interested in discussing what you're talking about, rather than beat it down like you're getting.

Regardless of the DEX build discussion, if one were to have a STR magus and cast Monstrous Physique looking for extra attacks, besides the Harpy and Gargoyle, are there any other monstrous humanoids you could recommend and for what reasons? (also for each level I, II and III)

Cheers

Shadow Lodge

INTRODUCING THE ABRIDGED VERSION OF THE MAGUS GUIDE....

USE VAMPIRIC TOUCH AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, MAXIMIZE IT, EMPOWER IT, MAXIMIZE IT AND EMPOWER IT, YOUR HEALER WILL LOVE YOU AND YOU WILL OWN EVERYTHING, TWICE!!! 3 times even...

magus is to easy to pilot. it will slap you up side the head with a full attack action for enough hp damage to kill a CR+2 encounter solo. and get temporary hp in the process.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Buba HoTep wrote:

Regardless of the DEX build discussion, if one were to have a STR magus and cast Monstrous Physique looking for extra attacks, besides the Harpy and Gargoyle, are there any other monstrous humanoids you could recommend and for what reasons? (also for each level I, II and III)

The Calikang (Inner Sea world guide) packs 6 arms. And is large.

The Charda (Bestairy 2) has 4 arms and bite. Is small and is aquatic.

Its really the first time I've look at Monstrous Physique though. So could be others.


WalterGM wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
guide wrote:

Level 3: He’s got more health now, 21, about what a wizard has. He’s also picked up Dervish Dance and spellstrike; now his basic attack is a +6 to hit (+9 with arcane accuracy) for 1d6+4, and his spell combat allows him to make two attacks at a +8/+8 if he expends a point from his pool. The first one will hit for 1d6+6 and the second will be touch that hits for 4d6+6 (Shocking Grasp again), clearly more powerful than his Str based counterpart. His AC is also statically higher still, at an 18.

Why is the shocking grasp doing 4d6+6? I may be missing something but this is quite a boggle.

That includes the 1d6 from the Scimitar. I'll edit the guide for clarity.

I'm relatively new to this, so I can't quite understand, but why is the full attack damage 1d6+6/4d6+6, when the basic attack damage is only 1d6+4?

Why +2 difference?


Had a thought for the 'single level dip' section. Dawnflower dervish (bard archetype) from Inner Sea Magic would make for a great single level dip. One level gets you dervish dance for free, so 2 feats gained there. In addition you get inspire courage at a total +2 attk/dmg bonus for yourself. At level 3 consider taking harmonic spell, by this time you have spellstrike and spell combat. The combination of which could be used to maintain a constant and free (go go arcane mark) +2 attk/dmg. True CHA is your dump stat, but since starting a battle dance is a move action, you still have your standard to cast a spell making even round 1 free.

This next part I'm not 100% sure works. I'm trying to figure out how Master Performer from the faction guide would interact. If the additional +1 is added in before its multiplied then you have a +4 to attk/dmg (gain of +2attk/dmg), making it a better combo than wpn focus and wpn spec (+1attk, +2 dmg). If it comes after the multiplication, then wpn focus and wpn spec are superior and master performer isn't really worth it.


The UC spells have just been uploaded to the d20pfsrd and I must say I'm really impressed with Warding weapon

Spoiler:

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (one melee weapon you are proficient in and you are holding)

EFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level

DESCRIPTION
The focus of this spell flies upward above your head and takes a defensive position within your space. It lunges at opponents, as if guided by a martially trained hand, parrying and turning back melee attacks aimed at you, but does not strike back at any opponent nor does it damage them. The weapon serves only as a defense. While it protects you, you can cast spells without provoking attacks of opportunity, without the need to cast them defensively. A creature with the Disruptive feat can easily bypass this spell’s defenses. You provoke attacks of opportunity for casting spells against these creatures even when subject to this spell, though you can still choose to cast defensively.

This definitely makes Combat casting a sub par feat choice in my opinion). on the first round you are within range of spell combat, you attack, 5 foot step out of the way and cast warding weapon. Then you 5 foot step back in and keep casting with spellstrike with no worries of failure


Anyone got any opinion on the Ghost Wpn (adds ghost touch and brilliant energy your spellpool enhancement options) feat vs arcane accuracy?

Sure brilliant energy costs more points bit lasts a full minute and arcane accuracy only lasts a round.


STR Ranger wrote:

Anyone got any opinion on the Ghost Wpn (adds ghost touch and brilliant energy your spellpool enhancement options) feat vs arcane accuracy?

Sure brilliant energy costs more points bit lasts a full minute and arcane accuracy only lasts a round.

Brilliant energy has, and always will have the inherent issue of not working on some foes. Arcane accuracy works all the time, everytime.


Added your guide to the Guide to the Guides if you don't mind.


TarkXT wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

Anyone got any opinion on the Ghost Wpn (adds ghost touch and brilliant energy your spellpool enhancement options) feat vs arcane accuracy?

Sure brilliant energy costs more points bit lasts a full minute and arcane accuracy only lasts a round.

Brilliant energy has, and always will have the inherent issue of not working on some foes. Arcane accuracy works all the time, everytime.

As a permanent bonus, of course.But aMagus will only use it MOST of the time. He simply would use something else when fighting undead.The feat also let's you use ghost touch.

Over the course of the campaign wouldn't Brilliant Energy save more pool points (and free up swifts after the initial enchant)


Arcane Accuracy is good also for maneuvers and not so many monsters have an Armor or Shield Bonus, so a bonus to Hit is better in this case. Maybe for a NPC heavy campaign... And AA has no lever prerequisite, while GB has 9th Magus.
I don't know however if GB will save arcane pool, because from my game experience an encounter doesn't last enough to have the Magus to full-attack more than once (at this point is a 2 vs 1 expenditure, or 2 vs 2 if you are using insted Accurate Strike).

Dark Archive

Love the guide. its great to see someone putting this much effort in to such a handy thing


Hi, Great Guide! Loved it! =] ...
I would suggest, but it's kind of insane and a little feat-intensive to do something like that:

Elf
Kensai 13+

For: 10
Des: 20
Con: 13
Int: 17
Wis: 11
Cha: 11

Feats and Special Abilities:
- Weapon Finesse (lvl1)
- Weapon Focus - Scimitar (lvl1)
- Dervish Dance (lvl3)
- (lvl5)
- (lvl5)
- Intensify Spell (lvl7)
- Lunge (lvl9)
- Dimensional Agility (lvl11)
- Dimensional Assault (lvl11)
- Dimensional Dervish (lvl13)
-whatever...

The idea is to fly around the battlefield, hitting people and controling a little bit of the battle with spells like Frigid Touch... Or delivering a lots of damage to special foes, and even coming back... The problem is a little bit obvious, is it ok to expend 3 feats just to do that ? There are 2 feats available, at lvl 5 (i hadn't figured wich ones to choose yet), Maybe toughness and something... Your sword will probably be a +1 Keen Spellstrike sword at least, to allow you to hit with two spells in the first round (one previously cast in the sword and the other through spellcombat - spellstrike, magus features), and even allowing some other spellcaster, to cast a swift like-those-frigid-touch-spells, in your blade, after you return with dimensional dervish, so you can do something like that in the end of the turn... You can even distract some foes, due to Teleporting, hitting while casting Mirror Image, well, you guys can figure it out the awesome possibilities this might bring)... And it is, of course, possible to make a Dimensional maneveurist, with that 19-20 whip, tripping everybody round, and coming back (but in that case some feats might change, and you'd need that maneuver arcana)...
Having Dimension Door Scrolls would be awesome too! You can't expect to use all of your 4th level spells with dimension door... So a team-wizard should be writing some scrolls for you (You can pay him of course)...
Later, for the Scimitar build, i'd probably go some crit feats, with 15-20, this build can largely apply debuff conditions to a lots of different (or maybe, the same), enemies, and still coming back, while doing considerably damage (specially if you start) ... The buy-point, was actually throug dies (18, 15, 15, 11, 11, 10)...
4th lvl would go to INT and the others to DEX, imo ...
If you are willing to, you can take some fighter levels, and get the three dimensional feats by lvl 12, and already speeding-up the crit feats... May be worth it, i haven't really decided yet! =]


+1 Keen Spellstoring** (Sorry...) ...
But of course, you can get Keen through Keen Edge too! (we gishes should know that already)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I need to reread the dimensional feats but I'm pretty sure scrolls won't work.

Also, you are spending 3 feats and locking your 4th level spells into D.door.

This feat chain probably is better for an Inquisitor who can spontaneously cast it as needed.


Yeah, i agree... But i'm not sure it can't be activated through casting via scrolls... Overall, 3 feats and all 4th level slots might not be worth the trick...
Maybe for a different kind of gish, like Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight ...


STR Ranger wrote:

I need to reread the dimensional feats but I'm pretty sure scrolls won't work.

Also, you are spending 3 feats and locking your 4th level spells into D.door.

This feat chain probably is better for an Inquisitor who can spontaneously cast it as needed.

Or a Travel cleric with PReferred Spell. :)

It works for maguses who want to be high mobility pouncers with force charge hook. It sounds like it should work off scrolls. However to me it seems you'd be better off using a staff with the staff magus.


TarkXT wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

I need to reread the dimensional feats but I'm pretty sure scrolls won't work.

Also, you are spending 3 feats and locking your 4th level spells into D.door.

This feat chain probably is better for an Inquisitor who can spontaneously cast it as needed.

Or a Travel cleric with PReferred Spell. :)

It works for maguses who want to be high mobility pouncers with force charge hook. It sounds like it should work off scrolls. However to me it seems you'd be better off using a staff with the staff magus.

Or spells like bladed dash and force hook charge.


This guide is exceedingly helpful, is there a possibility that it will be revised with the latest additions from Ultimate Combat and other sources?


Arjuna wrote:

- Dimensional Agility (lvl11)

- Dimensional Assault (lvl11)
- Dimensional Dervish (lvl13)
Arjuna wrote:
If you are willing to, you can take some fighter levels, and get the three dimensional feats by lvl 12, and already speeding-up the crit feats... May be worth it, i haven't really decided yet! =]

The Dimensional Agility feat line are not (Combat) feats and cannot be taken using the Fighter's Bonus Feats nor with the Magus's Bonus Feats.

The earliest a Magus may get Dimensional Dervish is level 15 barring any third-party sources.

Though you really only need the first feat in the chain to use Spell Combat's full attack after teleporting with Dimensional Door.


Indeed... Well Noticed! My bad!


Doesn't Spell combat already allow you to full attack after teleporting?


Xum wrote:
Doesn't Spell combat already allow you to full attack after teleporting?

Spell Combat does. Dimension door does not.


TarkXT wrote:
Xum wrote:
Doesn't Spell combat already allow you to full attack after teleporting?
Spell Combat does. Dimension door does not.

What I meant was use D-door then full attack.

You can do that with teleport, why not D-door, just cause of the line on the spell saying u can't do anything later?


Xum wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


You can do that with teleport, why not D-door, just cause of the line on the spell saying u can't do anything later?

You answered your own question there padre. You can attack before you D.Door but not after.


TarkXT wrote:
Xum wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


You can do that with teleport, why not D-door, just cause of the line on the spell saying u can't do anything later?
You answered your own question there padre. You can attack before you D.Door but not after.

I thought spell combat would take care of that. But I guess u r right, it doesn't change the rules of the spell.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Taleek wrote:
This guide is exceedingly helpful, is there a possibility that it will be revised with the latest additions from Ultimate Combat and other sources?

Up thread I did an analysis of the Kensai archetype and there has been an analysis of the arcana in UC. Walter has been quiet for a while so I figure life got in the way.


Totally new to the boards and relatively new playing a magus.

I have been playing mine for about 10 sessions and still get pretty harsh looks when I roll my spellstrike attack after my initial melee.. They like that i kill things but I always catch them looking over the magus section of UM.. just to make sure that I am doing this right can someone give me a yea or nay:

Im a level 8 bladebound magus with 22 dex/ 22 int & dervish dance:

1) I roll to hit with my +2 scimitar and hit (+14) for 1d6+8.

2) I then decide to spellstrike with shocking grasp. If I am next to my target I roll concentration check or provoke (a DC17 which I have a +14 to succeed. I have Lunge and normally dont need to do this but..).

3) I roll to hit (at a -2, so +12) and when I hit I deal my blade 1d6+8 and shocking grasp damage at CL8 which is 5d6 PLUS any energy attunement dice.

4) If I crit on my spellstrike hit, I use my weapon crit range of 18-20x2 (or 15-20x2 if I was smart enough to keen out the blade) and then my damage is the 5d6+1d6x2+8..

5) I grin with a maximum one round damage of 58 damage (or 100 if I crit both attacks and roll all 6s - 80 if I crit on the spellstrike only rolling all 6s).

Is my math correct?

Is my attack progression correct?

Do I get a +3 to spellstrike with shocking grasp if my opponent is wearing/ wielding metal?

Since I am level 8 do I get another attack (melee/ spellstrike) now?

Thanks in advance, sorry for the newbish.

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