[UM] Walter's Guide to the Magus


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Abraham spalding wrote:


I think I might understand what you are trying to say -- but you aren't saying it well.

I believe your point is that weapon specialization is a -0 for a +2 damage instead of the power attack's -1 for +2 damage.

Which is a fair statement. However if you have both you have a -1 for +4 damage.

Abraham, what I was saying is HERE is a list of feats for a dervish magus build up through 12th level.

Which feat would you REPLACE on this list for power attack?

I then went through each of the feats of which weapon spec: scimitar was one. And THAT was the comparison.

It would be great if you could have all the feats you wanted for free, but you only get so many and the magus needs them all.

Abraham spalding wrote:


Overall I would generally take weapon specialization before power attack if possible. After weapon specialization I would take arcane strike (again no penalty for a damage bonus -- down side is that it eats a swift action). Once I have both of those then I would look to power attack.

Honestly for melee character's power attack becomes needed to really deliver damage. weapon specialization is good, arcane strike is good, however the return on power attack is almost always worth it (there are a few very specific points when the extra damage potential is outweighed by the penalty to hit -- but this is exceptionally rare mathematically speaking).

Well you wouldn't trade in weapon spec or arcane strike for power attack, what would you?

Take a look, lunge is the only 'free' feat so to speak imho. And honestly were I to replace it I would go for another metamagic feat on the way to spell perfection at 15th.

Also power attack for a single one handed weapon user is not what it is for a twohander fighter or even a dual wielder.. throw a medium BAB into the mix and you have issues. There is a range of levels where enemy AC is subpar to PC hitroll, but that goes away and afterwards you won't find a need for power attack.

-James


WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.

How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.

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The Forgotten wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.
How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.

You can't combine archetypes...can you? Also, my reply to his comment was that I listed the exact same stat ranking he did, but in a slightly different way, so I don't know why you quoted it...lol


WalterGM wrote:
The Forgotten wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.
How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.
You can't combine archetypes...can you? Also, my reply to his comment was that I listed the exact same stat ranking he did, but in a slightly different way, so I don't know why you quoted it...lol

So long as the archetypes do not modify the same class aspect you can combine them.

Scarab Sages

calagnar wrote:

It's a no go on the spell combat becous it work like two weapon fighting. The spell being cast and the attacks hapen at the same time. So for devirish dance there is a weapon in your off hand the spell being cast.

Spell Combat (Ex)
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

Calagnar, I believe this issue still hasn't been resolved.

James Jacobs wrote:

Spell Combat is balanced as if it were akin to 2 weapon fighting, so I suspect from a strictly game-balance issue, you wouldn't be able to use it with Dervish Dance.

From a flavor point, though, the concept of a Sarenite magus fighting with a scimitar is pretty nifty, so I'd allow it in games I run. And by the strict rules as written in the feat, it's legal since you don't have a weapon or a shield in that off hand.

I'm not gonna give a definitive yes/no though, for 2 reasons:
1) I really DO want GMs to make their own educated decisions.
2) The design team is the one that does the actual design stuff. I'm not on that team.

I imagine many DD magi will be very irked if it's ruled illegal, but it seems to be a sort of "wait and see" situation right now officially.

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Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
The Forgotten wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.
How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.
You can't combine archetypes...can you? Also, my reply to his comment was that I listed the exact same stat ranking he did, but in a slightly different way, so I don't know why you quoted it...lol
So long as the archetypes do not modify the same class aspect you can combine them.

Hmm, good to know. But again, I don't understand the comment as per the quote...why does the listed stat build relate to having a double archetype?

Silver Crusade

Off hand weapon spell being cast? is not clear.


WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
The Forgotten wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.
How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.
You can't combine archetypes...can you? Also, my reply to his comment was that I listed the exact same stat ranking he did, but in a slightly different way, so I don't know why you quoted it...lol
So long as the archetypes do not modify the same class aspect you can combine them.
Hmm, good to know. But again, I don't understand the comment as per the quote...why does the listed stat build relate to having a double archetype?

IDK about that.


WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
The Forgotten wrote:
WalterGM wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Shouldn't this be this?

For the Strength Build:

I rate your stats as follows: Str > Con > Int > Dex > Wis > Cha.

This is already addressed in the guide, right below the ranking you quoted.
How about a blade bound hexcrafter? The use of hexes would seem to offset the low arcane pool somewhat.
You can't combine archetypes...can you? Also, my reply to his comment was that I listed the exact same stat ranking he did, but in a slightly different way, so I don't know why you quoted it...lol
So long as the archetypes do not modify the same class aspect you can combine them.
Hmm, good to know. But again, I don't understand the comment as per the quote...why does the listed stat build relate to having a double archetype?

Because I hit reply and forgot to delete the prior post.


Two possibilities I haven't seen mentioned so far:

Builds revolving around preferred spell. Ive been messing around with preferred spell, magical lineage and shocking grasp a bit, it's pretty feat intensive, but it let's you keep other spells memorized, improving your utility and makes applying some of the higher end metamagic feats a little more practical since you can do it on a case by case basis instead of choosing ahead of time. Becomes even better with spell perfection in high level games. The biggest downside is that I can't think of any good uses for heighten spell in the builds.

The othe one I've been wondering about, has anyone considered staff magus as an off hand weapon? With the two arcana to be able to spell combat with a staff, and that feat from UM that let's you use a staff one handed, you could use the staff as a shield. Throw in a glove of storing and you could still cast normally. It also gives you a backup bludgeoning weapon. Seems to me like it might be especially good either for non-dervish dex builds, or with some cheese, free action to store, attack with dervish, then free action to retrieve. (though I'm not sure I'd allow that kind of shenanigan as. GM)

Dark Archive

As written, Echoing Spell and Spell Perfection allow you to cast a spell over and over again without losing it.
It's obviously broken (in a much more severe way than Dervish Dance ever could be), but it would allow a magus to cast a empowered intensified maximized shocking grasp for 90 points of damage each round, followed by an intensified quickened shocking grasp for an extra attack.
It should get fixed in the next printing, though.
On a similar note, a wordcasting magus can get multiple full attacks in a row by using Spell Combat with Borrow Future. Similarly broken and I hope it gets fixed (although I doubt that anyone would allow it anyway).


calagnar wrote:
Off hand weapon spell being cast? is not clear.

The rules say nothing like this nor can they support it.

If it were to be so then: my PC readies an action to disarm the spell being cast...

Do you need to quick draw such a 'spell'?

Or is it that you simply cannot in spell combat cast your spell with a free hand then quickdraw a twohanded weapon with which to make a full attack action? Likewise suffering only a -2 to hit (as would someone TWFing with the feat AND offhand weapon being light).

It seems that spell combat is LIKE two-weapon fighting, but it does NOT have a second weapon wielded in the off-hand.

Note that one can TWF without having a weapon in the off-hand (e.g. armor spikes) and thus one CAN use TWFing with Dervish Dance. Likewise one could have an animated shield or a ring of force shield and still use Dervish Dance. The restrictions on Dervish Dance are:

Dervish Dance wrote:


The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

Neither is the case here, and it has NOTHING to do with TWF.

-James

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The Forgotten wrote:


Because I hit reply and forgot to delete the prior post.

I do this all the time, haha! The comment about multiclassing archetypes has been added to the guide.

Jadeite wrote:

As written, Echoing Spell and Spell Perfection allow you to cast a spell over and over again without losing it.

It's obviously broken (in a much more severe way than Dervish Dance ever could be), but it would allow a magus to cast a empowered intensified maximized shocking grasp for 90 points of damage each round, followed by an intensified quickened shocking grasp for an extra attack.
It should get fixed in the next printing, though.
On a similar note, a wordcasting magus can get multiple full attacks in a row by using Spell Combat with Borrow Future. Similarly broken and I hope it gets fixed (although I doubt that anyone would allow it anyway).

Yea, these are the sort of things that my GM wouldn't allow, but are worth knowing about regardless. The word casting with Borrow Future is intriguing, I hadn't heard of that before, but it looks pretty broken.

Froze_man wrote:


Builds revolving around preferred spell. Ive been messing around with preferred spell, magical lineage and shocking grasp a bit, it's pretty feat intensive, but it let's you keep other spells memorized, improving your utility and makes applying some of the higher end metamagic feats a little more practical since you can do it on a case by case basis instead of choosing ahead of time. Becomes even better with spell perfection in high level games. The biggest downside is that I can't think of any good uses for heighten spell in the builds.

Preferred spell is one that I neglected to include on the guide, so I'll throw it up now. The downside is the heighten spell requirement, and the fact that with your arcane pool you can recall shocking grasp for 1 point per cast. It's kind of like having a built in preferred spell that doesn't require you to sacrifice spell slots. Although, having both does increase your flexibility, which is never a bad thing.

Froze_man wrote:


The othe one I've been wondering about, has anyone considered staff magus as an off hand weapon? With the two arcana to be able to spell combat with a staff, and that feat from UM that let's you use a staff one handed, you could use the staff as a shield. Throw in a glove of storing and you could still cast normally. It also gives you a backup bludgeoning weapon. Seems to me like it might be especially good either for non-dervish dex builds, or with some cheese, free action to store, attack with dervish, then free action to retrieve. (though I'm not sure I'd allow that kind of shenanigan as. GM)

Being a staff magus with dervish would be a little feat intensive, as you give up all proficiency except simple with the archetype.

Dark Archive

I'd say Burning Hands has its uses. You need an AoE spell against swarms and many of those are mindless, so color spray is useless against them.

How about adding a section on words of power? Not on each individual word but on WoP in general. It seems nice for a magus, but I'd say he loses more than he gains. He gets four different melee touch cantrips (one of them dealing 1d4 electricity damage), but loses access to quite a lot of spells that can't be replicated with words.

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Jadeite wrote:
I'd say Burning Hands has its uses. You need an AoE spell against swarms and many of those are mindless, so color spray is useless against them.

Swarms, bane of my existence in PFS and they've followed me into my guide. Added.

Jadeite wrote:


How about adding a section on words of power? Not on each individual word but on WoP in general. It seems nice for a magus, but I'd say he loses more than he gains. He gets four different melee touch cantrips (one of them dealing 1d4 electricity damage), but loses access to quite a lot of spells that can't be replicated with words.

This will likely happen later today (6-10 hrs from now).

Shadow Lodge

WalterGM wrote:


Froze_man wrote:

The othe one I've been wondering about, has anyone considered staff magus as an off hand weapon? With the two arcana to be able to spell combat with a staff, and that feat from UM that let's you use a staff one handed, you could use the staff as a shield. Throw in a glove of storing and you could still cast normally. It also gives you a backup bludgeoning weapon. Seems to me like it might be especially good either for non-dervish dex builds, or with some cheese, free action to store, attack with dervish, then free action to retrieve. (though I'm not sure I'd allow that kind of shenanigan as. GM)

WalterGM wrote:

Being a staff magus with dervish would be a little feat intensive, as you give up all proficiency except simple with the archetype.

That can be worked around with half elf's ancestral arms from APG. Or lvls as cleric.

So an elf hexcrafter staff magus dx build 6 / cleric of Sarenrae or Cayden Cailean 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 using a glove of storing weapon can be an interesting character while wielding a 18-20/x2 critical threat range weapon with his spells and a staff as his shield. It would also help with the MAD problems with the Magus/Mystic Theurge route as you could leave Str at 10 and dump Cha. Have been said that, i agree on the cheeseness of it, you end up looking like a 3.5 character lol.

On the multiclassing topic also, if you take a one lvl dip in crossblooded sorcerer you can qualify for Dragon Disciple (as long as one of your boodlines are draconic) and taking some lvls in this PrC can be a boom for melee oriented magus or for just plain flavor. The PrC also let you advance your magus spellcasting lvls all the way to the 6th and last lvl of progression.


james maissen wrote:


Well you wouldn't trade in weapon spec or arcane strike for power attack, what would you?

Take a look, lunge is the only 'free' feat so to speak imho. And honestly were I to replace it I would go for another metamagic feat on the way to spell perfection at 15th.

As to the first two -- I might trade in for weapon specialization. It really depends on a lot of things (starting level for example). Weapon specialization isn't available to the magus (the normal magus -- staff magus can take it earlier) until after 10th level. So before 10th level power attack becomes a much easier choice.

Lunge is nice, lunge is good... if I'm looking for damage over reach then yes I would take it. Again it would be dependent on the character and campaign. Something like council of thieves I would probably go with power attack. Something like legacy of fire lunge looks better. I would rate them pretty evenly (especially since lunge gives a penalty to AC whereas power attack gives a penalty to attack roll).

****

Walter you have arcane strike listed incorrectly -- it only lasts a round not a minute.

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Abraham spalding wrote:


Walter you have arcane strike listed incorrectly -- it only lasts a round not a minute.

For sure, good catch - typo'd it.

Merck wrote:


That can be worked around with half elf's ancestral arms from APG. Or lvls as cleric.

Fact.

Merck wrote:


So an elf hexcrafter staff magus dx build 6 / cleric of Sarenrae or Cayden Cailean 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 using a glove of storing weapon can be an interesting character while wielding a 18-20/x2 critical threat range weapon with his spells and a staff as his shield. It would also help with the MAD problems with the Magus/Mystic Theurge route as you could leave Str at 10 and dump Cha. Have been said that, i agree on the cheeseness of it, you end up looking like a 3.5 character lol.

Heh, well cheese factor aside - it would be a fun build to play with. There's lots of options spell wise, not to mention what staffs you could have.

Merck wrote:


On the multiclassing topic also, if you take a one lvl dip in crossblooded sorcerer you can qualify for Dragon Disciple (as long as one of your boodlines are draconic) and taking some lvls in this PrC can be a boom for melee oriented magus or for just plain flavor. The PrC also let you advance your magus spellcasting lvls all the way to the 6th and last lvl of progression.

DDs are pretty flavorific, but in this case the one level sorc dip isn't terrible if you're doing it to get the +1 or +2 to your shocking grip anyway. Ill mention it in the multiclass area.

*****
Adding links back to the d20pfsrd from the spell section.


Abraham spalding wrote:


As to the first two -- I might trade in for weapon specialization. It really depends on a lot of things (starting level for example). Weapon specialization isn't available to the magus (the normal magus -- staff magus can take it earlier) until after 10th level. So before 10th level power attack becomes a much easier choice.

Okay, what feat would you swap out for Power Attack then in the progression that I put out?

THAT's the point here.. it's a tradeoff as it COSTS A FEAT. I had a feat progression laid out. What feat is worth loosing for Power Attack early on?

Lunge (at 9th) is really the first place I think you have that option, and that would depend on what level you'd stop at. Though honestly if it's by 12th I'd go lunge, while 15th or later I'd go with a metamagic on the way to spell perfection.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


As to the first two -- I might trade in for weapon specialization. It really depends on a lot of things (starting level for example). Weapon specialization isn't available to the magus (the normal magus -- staff magus can take it earlier) until after 10th level. So before 10th level power attack becomes a much easier choice.

Okay, what feat would you swap out for Power Attack then in the progression that I put out?

THAT's the point here.. it's a tradeoff as it COSTS A FEAT. I had a feat progression laid out. What feat is worth loosing for Power Attack early on?

Lunge (at 9th) is really the first place I think you have that option, and that would depend on what level you'd stop at. Though honestly if it's by 12th I'd go lunge, while 15th or later I'd go with a metamagic on the way to spell perfection.

-James

I would drop intensify spell at 7th level, which I would take at 11th level and I would never take improved critical. I have plenty of ways to make the weapon have an expanded critical range spending a feat to do what I can already do is simply silly in my book.


Wait wait ... let me get the popcorn ready before you two post anymore ! =)


Abraham spalding wrote:


I would drop intensify spell at 7th level, which I would take at 11th level and I would never take improved critical. I have plenty of ways to make the weapon have an expanded critical range spending a feat to do what I can already do is simply silly in my book.

Fair enough. That's your call. I disagree mind you.

I figure from level 7 to 10 (inclusive) that I'm casting A LOT of shocking grasps as my default damaging spell. And frankly loosing out on 2d6-5d6 each round is going to more than eclipse the +4 damage I'll get via power attack (assuming that the -2 to hit doesn't cause me to miss).

As towards Improved Critical, if I don't take it then I'm either doing one of three things: I'm casting Keen Edge (10min/level) a lot, I'm using spending a +1 on keen, or I'm enchanting the scimitar with keen.

The former is hard to qualify to it's loss. It'll burn a 3rd level slot and likely a point in recharging it during the day if not two. Likely as well a few charges on a lesser extend rod. But really it's lessening the vamp touches, the slot for GMW and the like that is the main issue there (beyond the issue of timing).

The last is pricy and I'd rather have something else on the weapon, or the cash for something else. At the very least as a magus I'm getting spell storing on the weapon to up the amount that I can spike damage. Thus the least that keen would cost would be 10k gold.

The second is much easier as I'd easily have an extra +1d6 elemental damage on the weapon instead of paying for keen. Taking that damage as +3.5 (perhaps I should call it +3 as it won't multiply on a crit) the difference that power attack makes in its stead is not as nice.

Case 1- I have power attack but not improved crit. So I can at BAB 8 power attack for -3 +6 and have the weapon keen via the arcane point.

Case 2- I don't have power attack, but do have improved crit. So the arcane point gives a +1d6 elemental damage that Case 1 didn't have. Thus I'm at +0 +3 here.

In essence between the two power attack is a net -3 to hit for a net +3 to damage. I don't think that's quite worth it.

And that's before we figure in the needing the 13 STR.

I don't think it's really all that here,

James


I agree that there are three options -- here's where I'm coming out on them:

1. (keen edge) -- This spell lasts a long while. If I wait until the start of the first combat it will likely last until after the last one of the day. That's an action and a spell slot expended possibly two in a day. Now on our spell casting schedule that's honestly a lot I agree -- however with improved spell recall it's not so bad, and it expands our damage per round much more than gmw or vampiric touch would have. I think with power attack it is highly likely that keen edge will over time deliver more damage. Also since we can benefit from pearls of power or spell recall memorizing it more than once is unneeded.

2. Arcane pool for keen -- This choice is honestly rather easy for me to make after level 9. After all I'm getting a +3 bonus on what is probably a +3 weapon... that's 1 more than I need and I am very willing to forgo energy damage. At worse it's a wash with power attack (keen multiplies power attack but the energy dice are consistent) -- energy damage tends to be ignored with petty resistances so often that I would rather not have it in most cases.

3. I fully agree with not getting a keen weapon. Having the best bonus on the weapon and then leaving the arcane pool for choosing the specifics I want for each combat is a much better plan and much more cost effective.

*******************************

I'm almost done with my staff build -- and walter I think you'll be adding a third type of magus (as opposed to the current Strength and Dexterity magus) -- the intelligence based magus.


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Abraham spalding wrote:

I agree that there are three options -- here's where I'm coming out on them:

1. (keen edge) -- This spell lasts a long while. If I wait until the start of the first combat it will likely last until after the last one of the day. That's an action and a spell slot expended possibly two in a day. Now on our spell casting schedule that's honestly a lot I agree -- however with improved spell recall it's not so bad, and it expands our damage per round much more than gmw or vampiric touch would have. I think with power attack it is highly likely that keen edge will over time deliver more damage. Also since we can benefit from pearls of power or spell recall memorizing it more than once is unneeded.

2. Arcane pool for keen -- This choice is honestly rather easy for me to make after level 9. After all I'm getting a +3 bonus on what is probably a +3 weapon... that's 1 more than I need and I am very willing to forgo energy damage. At worse it's a wash with power attack (keen multiplies power attack but the energy dice are consistent) -- energy damage tends to be ignored with petty resistances so often that I would rather not have it in most cases.

3. I fully agree with not getting a keen weapon.

Well first and foremost I'm coming from thinking PFS which caps at 12. So I'm just looking at +3 bumps here... and 5 slots for 3rd level spells, as well as around 11 pool points.

I don't think that casting keen edge during combat is all that viable for me. I'd rather put up a defensive/mobility spell, charge in with force hook, or lay down a battlefield control spell. Further doing it in combat and I won't be able to extend it on the cheap via a rod. That lowers it down to 2 hours and I can easily see spending Pool points to get that back again and possibly a third time. I never imagined memorizing it a second time. But I've got a good number of uses for those 5 slots. I'd like to have at least 2 vamp touches (so I can still arcane strike), a force hook charge and that just leaves 2 other slots. Likely keep one open (unless I know combat is today for a GMW tomorrow if I'm not buying a +3 weapon outright but rather getting spellstoring, etc on it) and of course haste (unless there are sufficient boots of speed around).

Sure it's worth while when you can't have keen any other way. But honestly if it's cast it during combat, then I'm sorry- go with the pool point and use one of the +1s for keen.

Now I still think that power attacking as a magus is not going to be all that often. At 11th level you are looking at an 8 BAB. With a +5 weapon, +7 attack mod, +1 from haste, -2 spell combat and -3 power attack all you have is a +16/16/11 attack roll.

Now your damage per hit is going to look like: +5 magic, +7 attack stat, +2 weapon spec, +3 arcane strike, 1d6 base, +1d6 elemental for 24 per hit not counting spells... with another elemental perhaps 27.5 per hit.

Things should not have an AC 20 or below, so the power attack is effecting all 3 attacks. The -15% of the time that you would hit but now missed will lower your average expected damage per round by 11 damage.

For this you are getting 6 damage more per hit. If the target was simply AC 21 (hit on a 2 before power attacking) then you're adding around 12 damage per round. The numbers just lower from here.

It's not a good trade at this point imho.

And at HIGH levels then enemy AC starts to catch back up. I'm thinking that you're going to find a little use for it around the 13-15 range but then lose out again.

-James

Silver Crusade

Improved Critical is never a wasted feat. It's the cheapest way to get it. And it works on all weapons of the type.


I honestly didn't have any trouble hitting at the end of council of thieves (we just finished it last night) -- well okay I had some trouble occasionally but that was mainly dice rolls -- I was sporting a +22 to hit before power attacking or arcane accuracy.

+9 BAB +5 Strength +5 weapon +1 heirloom - 3 power attack +1 haste +1 bless (or some such -- I forget what exactly) = +19

On the tough opponents I would use arcane accuracy for a +25 to hit.

My damage was: 1d8+5(str)+5(weapon)+6(power attack) +3(arcane strike)=23.5 with a critical range of 17~20. I was also getting 1d4 dex damage a round from calcific strike (spell blending for that and magic circle).

I had 12 arcane points total and used 7 of them in the last fight -- 5 on arcane accuracy and 2 to keep my weapon to a +5 keen (instead of +2).

AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).


calagnar wrote:
Improved Critical is never a wasted feat. It's the cheapest way to get it. And it works on all weapons of the type.

Arcane pool will work just as well on all scimitars that the magus is going to use. keen edge as well.


ok you two pause for a sec . I need drink . brb .

Dark Archive

Just wanted to say thank you for putting this guide together.

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Abraham spalding wrote:

I honestly didn't have any trouble hitting at the end of council of thieves (we just finished it last night) -- well okay I had some trouble occasionally but that was mainly dice rolls -- I was sporting a +22 to hit before power attacking or arcane accuracy.

+9 BAB +5 Strength +5 weapon +1 heirloom - 3 power attack +1 haste +1 bless (or some such -- I forget what exactly) = +19

On the tough opponents I would use arcane accuracy for a +25 to hit.

My damage was: 1d8+5(str)+5(weapon)+6(power attack) +3(arcane strike)=23.5 with a critical range of 17~20. I was also getting 1d4 dex damage a round from calcific strike (spell blending for that and magic circle).

I had 12 arcane points total and used 7 of them in the last fight -- 5 on arcane accuracy and 2 to keep my weapon to a +5 keen (instead of +2).

AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).

What weapon were you sporting? Just out of curiosity :P

greatamericanfolkhero wrote:
Just wanted to say thank you for putting this guide together.

Thanks, my pleasure!


WalterGM wrote:


What weapon were you sporting? Just out of curiosity :P

I was using a small Bardiche (1d8 19~20/x2 reach) as a one handed weapon -- which is what my exotic weapon proficiency was in (GM agrees with me that if the EWP can handle a -4 non-proficiency penalty then it can easily handle a -2 size proficiency penalty).

However I also was carrying a cestus on my off hand and if I didn't have the Bardiche would have been using a staff or longsword (as is my damage was a tad high for my action economy for that particular campaign).

I went Int > Con > Str > Dex > Wis > Cha for my stats.


I have a question regarding touch attacks in general. It does have particular interest for my recent magus build, so I'm asking it here!

When you deliver a held charge, you can opt to deliver the charge through an unarmed strike or with a natural weapon, instead of the usual touch attack. My question is... does this have to be a direct attack, or could you deliver the charge through, say, a trip attack?

Pro: The held charge discharges when someone touches you, even accidentally, so bull rushing, tripping and anything else involving physical contact should discharge the spell.

Con: It never occurred to me before, so maybe it's not exactly RAI? I dunno.

The Magus Angle: Assuming the answer to the above is yes, how does this mesh with Spellstrike using a trip weapon? Could your free 'deliver touch attack through weapon' attack be a trip attack?

The 'get a free attack' trick of delivering arcane marks combined with spell combat and spellstrike seemed kinda lame for my whip magus (pretty low base damage)... but then I began thinking, what if that extra attack was also a trip attack? Not quite so lame then!


I'm going to weigh in here on the side of power attack not really being worth it. Before level 10, PA will add maybe 1 point to your DPR, assuming no other trade offs and you are not using spell strike (which causes it to favor not-PA more) After level 10, against the standard ACs in the monster creation chapter, my preliminary calculations are showing PA to reduce your DPR.

Now, if you have enough buffs to your hit, you can overcome these penalties, but in general I don't think it is worth the feat on the magus. He has enough other ways of boosting damage but needs his bonuses to hit more.


Caineach wrote:

I'm going to weigh in here on the side of power attack not really being worth it. Before level 10, PA will add maybe 1 point to your DPR, assuming no other trade offs and you are not using spell strike (which causes it to favor not-PA more) After level 10, against the standard ACs in the monster creation chapter, my preliminary calculations are showing PA to reduce your DPR.

Now, if you have enough buffs to your hit, you can overcome these penalties, but in general I don't think it is worth the feat on the magus. He has enough other ways of boosting damage but needs his bonuses to hit more.

I want to see your calculations -- I'm having a hard time believing that power attack is going to lessen your DPR and I don't see where using spellstrike precludes using power attack.


Abraham spalding wrote:


AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).

Hmm... would you mind showing how you got your AC that high? Just loaded up with magic items?


Abraham spalding wrote:


I want to see your calculations -- I'm having a hard time believing that power attack is going to lessen your DPR and I don't see where using spellstrike precludes using power attack.

Basically the magus is not likely to hit on a 2 with it's primaries when power attacking. Thus they feel the full weight of the penalty to hit from power attacking.

The return is not that large when compared to the whole here, so its quite possible. I had it break even against a relatively low AC for the level I was doing it out at a few posts above.. although I did it quickly, but the results are ballpark break-even.

As to spell combat/spellstrike you are lowering your chance to hit at least once for the round (more so of course on spellstrike) which is tied to a 35 or more kicker spell... more so when you figure in quicken and/or spellstoring weapons.

Also there is the lower chance to successfully critical due to the lowered chance to hit.

The spellstrike is nowhere near as pronounced as say for a rogue with sneak attack or the like as you only need to hit once. But it still does weigh in here... especially the farther the target AC is from being hit on a 2.

-James


Abraham spalding wrote:
Caineach wrote:

I'm going to weigh in here on the side of power attack not really being worth it. Before level 10, PA will add maybe 1 point to your DPR, assuming no other trade offs and you are not using spell strike (which causes it to favor not-PA more) After level 10, against the standard ACs in the monster creation chapter, my preliminary calculations are showing PA to reduce your DPR.

Now, if you have enough buffs to your hit, you can overcome these penalties, but in general I don't think it is worth the feat on the magus. He has enough other ways of boosting damage but needs his bonuses to hit more.

I want to see your calculations -- I'm having a hard time believing that power attack is going to lessen your DPR and I don't see where using spellstrike precludes using power attack.

Basically once .05*(PA penalty)*(Damage w/o PA)*(number of attacks) > sum((PA damage)*(hit% w/PA)) for all attacks, it stops being worth using PA. Your base damage goes up with the magus as you level, but the to hit bonuses do not scale as well as other classes (Arcane Pool does not stack with natural weapon bonuses), so your DPR is reduced by power attack's hit reduction.

Most spells will add to your base damage, increasing the first part of the equasion but not the second, making power attack less profitable from what I can tell.

I am working on my numbers to verify my results.


ordak wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).
Hmm... would you mind showing how you got your AC that high? Just loaded up with magic items?

Actually no I didn't. I was level 13 at the time which means I was using mithril full plate +4 Dex of 14 ring of deflection +2, haste

10 +13 +2 +2 +1 = 28 There was something else somewhere but I forgot what... a buff of some sort I think.


Okay spell combat not spell strike -- I'm caught up again. Spell strike doesn't give a penalty, spell combat does. Though I would like to see the calculations -- from what I remember of the power attack calculations from back during beta it was fairly well established that power attack was almost always the best choice when it came to adding to DPR.


ordak wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).
Hmm... would you mind showing how you got your AC that high? Just loaded up with magic items?

That's not that high when you're talking 12th or 13th level.

As his was a STR magus, let's call it 13th level.

10 AC Base
+12 Mithril Full Plate +3
+3 DEX (14base +2STAT item)
+1 Haste
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Ring
+1 Amulet

That's without trying.

Now a DEX magus at 12th could be looking at:

10 AC Base
+9 Celestial Chainmail (+3 chainmail)
+8 DEX (22base +4STAT item)
+1 Haste
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Ring
+1 Amulet

for AC 31 before Shield for about the same funds (assuming a +4 stat item for each attacking stat)

Again that's not trying hard or even optimizing cash cost.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:

I honestly didn't have any trouble hitting at the end of council of thieves (we just finished it last night) -- well okay I had some trouble occasionally but that was mainly dice rolls -- I was sporting a +22 to hit before power attacking or arcane accuracy.

+9 BAB +5 Strength +5 weapon +1 heirloom - 3 power attack +1 haste +1 bless (or some such -- I forget what exactly) = +19

On the tough opponents I would use arcane accuracy for a +25 to hit.

My damage was: 1d8+5(str)+5(weapon)+6(power attack) +3(arcane strike)=23.5 with a critical range of 17~20. I was also getting 1d4 dex damage a round from calcific strike (spell blending for that and magic circle).

I had 12 arcane points total and used 7 of them in the last fight -- 5 on arcane accuracy and 2 to keep my weapon to a +5 keen (instead of +2).

AC (for those that want to know) was a 29 without a shield spell up (but counting haste).

At level 12, you had a 50,000 gp weapon + enough items to get your AC to 29 while having a low dex. I believe that in a campaign more closely following WBL you would have had more problems with power attack. Not significantly, perhaps.

ETA: At level 13, your expenditures aren't that bad.

You also got to go through the whole campaign with the same weapon you started with and thus could cash in on heirloom weapon. It was never stolen, sundered, or whatever and you had options to enchant it. That's another bonus hardly typical to every campaign.


ShadowcatX wrote:


At level 12, you had a 50,000 gp weapon + enough items to get your AC to 29 while having a low dex. I believe that in a campaign more closely following WBL you would have had more problems with power attack. Not significantly, perhaps.

ETA: At level 13, your expenditures aren't that bad.

You also got to go through the whole campaign with the same weapon you started with and thus could cash in on heirloom weapon. It was never stolen, sundered, or whatever and you had options to enchant it. That's another bonus hardly typical to every campaign.

No I had a 8,000 gp weapon -- which I regularly boosted to a +5 keen weapon (which would ordinarily cost 72,000gp) with arcane pool. I will agree that heirloom weapon wasn't a regular bonus I could rely on -- but I did use greater magic weapon between levels 7~10 instead of getting it magicked up -- I didn't have a chance for that until level 10 when we had some down time.

Also while I would never argue against the tactic of sundering, stealing or whatever to a weapon it isn't all that common and there were a lot of choices to do such to beyond my weapon.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Okay spell combat not spell strike -- I'm caught up again. Spell strike doesn't give a penalty, spell combat does. Though I would like to see the calculations -- from what I remember of the power attack calculations from back during beta it was fairly well established that power attack was almost always the best choice when it came to adding to DPR.

PA is good for all full BAB classes almost all the time. For non full-BAB classes, it varies. Especially for rogues, who can see significant decreases in DPR for power attacking. Bards often only break even.


ok so for my math:
Assumptions:
All stat boosts go into damage dealing stat (str or dex)
Said stat gets a belt bonus at levels 6,10, and 14
Magic weapon (scimitar) improves at levels 3,6,9,12,15 and is keened at 8+
After a +5 bonus is reached with Arcane Pool, 3 1d6 elemental bonuses are added. After that I'm not sure what I would add, but it wont affect damage much. (if it adds damage the math gets worse for PA, hit, math gets better) This means that 1 elemental property is added at 9 and 2 more at 13.
Weapon Focus at 5th, Weapon spec is taken at 11th, Improved Weapon Focus at 17, as they become available. Power Attack at 3rd, Arcane Strike at first.

I am assuming I am geting an extra attack from 1 touch spell, and

I am choosing select levels/columns from my chart because it wont past into the forum and and I don't feel like typing all of it in better.

Level / AC / Norm Hit / PA Hit / Norm Dam / PA Dam / Norm DPR / PA DPR / Norm-PA
3 / 15 / 6 / 5 / 0.6 / 0.55 / 10.5 / 12.5 / 0 / 14.49 / 15.8125 /-1.3225
6 / 19 / 12 / 10 / 0.7 / 0.6 / 14.5 / 18.5 / 0 / 23.345 / 25.53 / -2.185
8 / 21 / 16 / 14 / 0.8 / 0.7 / 17.5 / 21.5 / 0 / 48.9125 / 49.45 / -0.5375
9 / 23 / 16 / 14 / 0.7 / 0.6 / 17.5 / 21.5 / 3.5 / 48.5625 / 46.8125 / 1.75
13 / 28 / 20 / 17 / 0.65 / 0.5 / 21.5 / 27.5 / 10.5 / 65.365 / 55.75 / 9.615
18 / 33 / 28 / 24 / 0.8 / 0.6 / 25.5 / 33.5 / 10.5 / 106.9425 / 86.1675 / 20.775

Under these assumptions, the switch happens at level 9, where PA becomes less worthwhile. A lot happens arround level 9 though to change the situation with regards to magic weapons. The big thing is I am assuming your magic weapon is now maxed at +5 and you are adding enhancement bonuses. Even without these, the change still happens here (though is less pronounced). Basically, your base damage has just become enough that the penalties from PA are not worth the benefit. This graph varies greatly based off of how much the enemy's AC deviates from the monster design chart.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Okay spell combat not spell strike -- I'm caught up again. Spell strike doesn't give a penalty, spell combat does. Though I would like to see the calculations -- from what I remember of the power attack calculations from back during beta it was fairly well established that power attack was almost always the best choice when it came to adding to DPR.

Abraham, it's the penalty from power attack that we're talking about here.

The return for power attack varies depending upon the damage you would do without it and the the chance you would have to hit without it.

The magus is a medium BAB class and this makes a huge difference here in terms to how useful power attack is for them. They will likely feel the full penalty to hit on each attack for power attacking.

Consider a 14th level magus and a 14th level fighter. The fighter is going to have about 9 hitroll on the magus (and that's BEFORE figuring in the magus taking the -2 to hit from spell combat). Something that the fighter is hiting with a primary on exactly a 2 the magus is missing half the time or more. Further the fighter has 3 base attacks to the magus base 2 attacks, thus the extra spellstrike attack for the magus balances out with his fewer BAB attacks. The fighter is so far ahead on hitroll that even when the fighter power attacks and the magus does not, the fighter's last iterative is better than the magus' iterative attack. In essence the best 3 of the 4 magus attacks are at the level of the fighter's first iterative attack!

The fighter can likely afford to power attack most things while it's very easy for the magus to not get as good a return here.

The fighter could be getting a 3-1 return against the magus' 2-1 for starters. And the fighter might still hit on a natural 2 against the target with his main attacks, while the magus might be taking the full -3 to hit on each and every attack.

The fighter then only loses on the iterative attacks, while the magus loses 15% on as many as 4 attacks.

If the magus is getting 6 damage per successful attack via power attack, but deals say 28 damage (before power attack) on a hit. Then the magus is losing close to 17 damage from that penalty to hit each round on average. Now he would need to hit, on average with a little under 3 of his 4 attacks to balance this out.

If the magus needed exactly a 2 to hit before power attacking but using spell combat, now he needs a 5, 5, 5, and 10 respectively for his attacks. Thus he will hit 80%, 80%, 80%, and 55% or on average 295% or about what he needs.

If the magus needed a 5 to hit before power attacking but using spell combat, now he would need an 8, 8, 8, and 13 respectively for his attacks. Thus he will hit 65%, 65%, 65% and 35% of the time for 230% on average. Thus the 6 extra damage per hit will average to under 14 expected damage. Meaning that the magus will LOSE 3 points of expected damage by power attacking.

Now the above is not factoring in criticals so as to make following things easier. But unless you are autoconfirming criticals this is only going to hurt the magus who will confirm these threats less often (and in fact possibly even have threats less often).

Power attack is really not worth it for a magus unless they would need under a 2 to hit with their primary attacks (baring the 1 always misses rule).. and thus power attack would not have the to hit penalty fully applied.

Seeing as the magus is a medium BAB class this is only going to happen when target ACs are VERY low compared to PC level. This can happen for a very narrow window of play time, which can be extended depending on monster choice by the DM. However, it doesn't give you much return here.

It's certainly not worth the stat investment and the feat investment in it.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
No I had a 8,000 gp weapon -- which I regularly boosted to a +5 keen weapon (which would ordinarily cost 72,000gp) with arcane pool.

How did you do that? The bonus using arcane pool at 13th level is +4 and its enhancement so it wouldn't stack with your sword's enhancement bonus.

Edit: Never mind, I've been reading that wrong the whole time. (Even though it explicitly states. . .) Wow! My mind is blown.


I would also like to throw a vote in for Two-World Magic trait to grab Touch of Fatigue. It's much better than arcane mark since it forces a Fort save or -2 to Str / Dex, and no charging. That will generally mean easier to hit, and hitting harder.


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ShadowcatX wrote:


Edit: Never mind, I've been reading that wrong the whole time. (Even though it explicitly states. . .) Wow! My mind is blown.

It's REALLY easy to misread something once and then assume it says what you 'know' it says.

Worse that you pick something up at the gaming table and then read it into the written rules when you sit down to read it.

EVERYONE does this. The more time you spend on these boards the more often you will see things like this. It's VERY HARD to avoid it.. at best you minimize it.

That's one of the advantages of these boards in that they are less insular than your circle of fellow gamers. It's still insular, but less so.

-James


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Abraham spalding wrote:

I'm almost done with my staff build -- and walter I think you'll be adding a third type of magus (as opposed to the current Strength and Dexterity magus) -- the intelligence based magus.

I am very interested in how a int based magus works out. I've been thinking of that option with a non-bladebound build.

Silver Crusade

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A fun combo for an Int-based magus is the hexcrafter's Misfortune + Cackle + Aqueous Orb.
Create the bubble, engulf your ennemies with it and use Misfortune, watch them fail their reflex saves, have fun with their faces full of horror when they begin to drown, and cackle all the while for True Evil touch + more failed saves. For even more vileousness, move the bubble between three walls, and cast a second sphere on the only place a guy would come out if he finally saves.

EVIL, I SAY !

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