[UM] Walter's Guide to the Magus


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Walter's Guide to the Magus - Arcana section

I have a disagreement with his rating of Arcana: Close Range . Which he has rated at one star. This is a very good arcana, you just have to use it correctly with the 0 level ray spells.

While it is not a good idea to use Arcana: Close Range with the Magus higher level spells. The Magus only has a limited number of those he can cast per day. Where the Arcana: close Range shines is for the unlimited casting he can do with Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, and Disrupt Undead. All 0 level spells. This will add at least 1D3 to the Magus spellstrike class feature versus no damage using Arcane Mark with the Spellstrike.

Making this Arcana about equal to or better then the fighter feat: Weapon Specialization.


The utility of that arcana depends on how your DM interprets the use of Arcane Mark in your game.

-If you are allowed to get infinite extra attacks with Arcane mark, then close range is rather useless

- If you are not allowed to get infinite extra attacks with cantrips (not common, but I have seen it ruled that way), then close range is also less than stellar

- If arcane mark doesn't work but cantrips do, close range has its uses. Though keep in mind that by level 7 you probably won't be using it as much (decent number of spells + a large arcane pool + pearls of power = better options to cast each round than cantrips)

YMMV


I see your point, didn't factor in those extra spells. Guess it all depends on how many battles (rounds) your DM will toss at you before you get a chance to rest.

So...for a low level Arcana: Close Range is very good but as you level, it's effectiveness drops off.

Scarab Sages

Which, as you can't retrain Arcanas means it's terrible. You only get a very limited number and they need to remain useful throughout all levels.

Hexcrafters get Brand to replace arcane mark so that's an extra 1 point of damage (so, 1 point different on average?) with a cool visual/thematic effect (a mark that needs to be cut off and reforms if the removal wound is healed) without needing to spend an arcana on it.

An Arcana for 1d3 damage is awful, really, even without being a hexcrafter.


I am having some difficulty sorting out the level 11 dervish magus in Walter's guide.

Here's what he shows:

Walter wrote:
Level 11: Now he’s fairly potent. His level 8 increase has gone to Dex, and his health is now 80, about 20 less than his Str based kin, but still decent enough for an agile character. His Dexterity and Int likely each have a +4 enhancement from gear or spells, and his weapon is probably a +2 and he’s able to augment it further, making the end result something like a +5 keen, or a +3 shocking/flaming/etc. He can haste himself, so when he spell combats with Arcane Accuracy and arcane strike he hits for +24/+24/+19 that hit for 1d6+17 each, critting on a 15-20. His spellstrike as part of that also hits on a +24 with his sword, critting on a 15-20. If it doesn’t crit, the intensified Shocking Grasp hits for 11d6+17, if it does, it hits for 22d6+34. It also has a +2 to overcome spell penetration, and once per day he can empower it. Now his AC is something like 24 or 25, increased to 29 or 30 respectively with Spell Shield.

So, I assume he's counting both Greater Magic Weapon and Arcane pool for buffing the weapon; neither of those can stack on top of existing weapon enhancement bonuses; GMW gets you a +2 at lvl 11 (becomes +3 @ 12), and cannot add properties, only enhancement. You could use arcane pool to boost the weapon to +3, or you can apply effects; I'd assume probably a +1 keen weapon, use GMW to get to +2, and use arcane pool to apply flaming, frost, shocking.

Next, he's talking about applying both arcane accuracy and arcane strike... They're both swift actions, and with one swift action/round, that's a no-no. So, pick one or the other.

It looks like the attack and damage bonus calculations are assuming a +5 weapon and use of both arcane accuracy and arcane strike.... so they are a bit lower for either to-hit or to-damage, and a LOT lower for the other. Am I missing something?

Dark Archive

Ross Becker wrote:

I am having some difficulty sorting out the level 11 dervish magus in Walter's guide.

Here's what he shows:

Walter wrote:
Level 11: Now he’s fairly potent. His level 8 increase has gone to Dex, and his health is now 80, about 20 less than his Str based kin, but still decent enough for an agile character. His Dexterity and Int likely each have a +4 enhancement from gear or spells, and his weapon is probably a +2 and he’s able to augment it further, making the end result something like a +5 keen, or a +3 shocking/flaming/etc. He can haste himself, so when he spell combats with Arcane Accuracy and arcane strike he hits for +24/+24/+19 that hit for 1d6+17 each, critting on a 15-20. His spellstrike as part of that also hits on a +24 with his sword, critting on a 15-20. If it doesn’t crit, the intensified Shocking Grasp hits for 11d6+17, if it does, it hits for 22d6+34. It also has a +2 to overcome spell penetration, and once per day he can empower it. Now his AC is something like 24 or 25, increased to 29 or 30 respectively with Spell Shield.

So, I assume he's counting both Greater Magic Weapon and Arcane pool for buffing the weapon; neither of those can stack on top of existing weapon enhancement bonuses; GMW gets you a +2 at lvl 11 (becomes +3 @ 12), and cannot add properties, only enhancement. You could use arcane pool to boost the weapon to +3, or you can apply effects; I'd assume probably a +1 keen weapon, use GMW to get to +2, and use arcane pool to apply flaming, frost, shocking.

Next, he's talking about applying both arcane accuracy and arcane strike... They're both swift actions, and with one swift action/round, that's a no-no. So, pick one or the other.

It looks like the attack and damage bonus calculations are assuming a +5 weapon and use of both arcane accuracy and arcane strike.... so they are a bit lower for either to-hit or to-damage, and a LOT lower for the other. Am I missing something?

Actually the arcane pool bonus DOES stack with existing enhancement bonuses (everyone misses this fact) and at 11th level it gives a bonus of +3 so that's where he gets the +5 from.


The critical strike arcana is only usable once a day. Not as cool as I once thought. The more I look at the list the more I feel spell blending is the best arcana after arcane accuracy.


Thank you for the excellent guide, sir.


james maissen wrote:

It just helps make a DEX based magus viable at lower levels.

At higher levels the +DEX damage is nice, but the crit range and everything else will deal the majority of your damage.

I don't see Dervish Dance as overpowered. Useful and powerful? Yes. But not out of line.

The hatred it receives is the 'but now everyone looks alike' hatred that many gamers have. The blame there needs to go to the magus class that distinguishes between crit range and crit multiplier for spellstrike. This funnels magi into one-handed wide crit ranged weapons... can we say rapier or scimitar?

But honestly I'm not a fan of the hatred towards 'popular' builds. I think it's unhealthy.

-James

Viable at lower levels sure, and devastating at higher levels. To see how overpowered Dervish Dance is, we have to first dispel the myth that goes around these boards that STR builds are superior to DEX builds. They aren't. Maybe before Dervish Dance and Agile they were, now they don't compete. WIth a STR build, you still need a viable DEX, everyone needs CON, and INT obviously. That leaves you dumping CHA, no great loss, and WIS, Ouch. So really only CHA gets dumped WIS stays at 8-10 depending on point buy. Benefits are a higher damage die (which we all know isn't where damage comes from)

With a DEX build, you only need DEX, CON, INT. You can dump STR, but will probably leave it 8-10, you can dump CHA, and you can have your WIS 8-10. That means DEX is able to be much higher that the STR Magus' STR. It also means that the DEX magus will have a higher AC, a better chance to hit, and do more damage.

If I've convinced you that a DEX build is better than a STR build, now we need to look at Dervish Dance: Add to all the benefits stated above the ability to crit almost 1 out of 3 swings... Yeah I'm gonna say that's pretty powerful.

I'm not saying I hate the feat, I've always loved DEX builds even before Agile, but it is probably the best feat in the game.


Are you sure a DEX build Magus has a higher AC then a STR build Magus?

Even going Mithril, you'll probably hit the DEX modifier cap with light armor. While the STR build can go heavy armor and make that adamantime to help with the D8 health.

From my quick math, I'm coming up with the STR Magus with heavy armor pulling ahead for AC.


And he has an extra feat to spare.

Scarab Sages

Two extra feats! (Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance)


Matt2VK wrote:

Are you sure a DEX build Magus has a higher AC then a STR build Magus?

Even going Mithril, you'll probably hit the DEX modifier cap with light armor. While the STR build can go heavy armor and make that adamantime to help with the D8 health.

From my quick math, I'm coming up with the STR Magus with heavy armor pulling ahead for AC.

Bracers of armor don't have a DEX max... And I'll take a 2 feat penalty, to hit harder, hit more often, have a higher init, and get hit less often.

Grand Lodge

Here is a powerful feat that may be worth taking at low levels if you do not use it as a whole system for you Magus and it should be mentioned in your Guide.

Experimental Spellcaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power).

This will let them at the very least pick a 0 level affect to chanle throw thier wepon that does acid (1d3),cold (1d3),fire (1d4), or Electric (1d4) each and every round. If you take this at higher level you can make higher level touch attack spells.

Also something that should be added but from a 3rd party is a new Archetypes Cabalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/3rd-party-pu blishers/super-genius-games---magus-archetypes/cabalist)

This give you bard spell casting (magus list) and at 7 bloodline arcana and bloodline powers. This ability replaces the knowledge pool ability.


The armor discussion is completely moot. Carrying capacity aside, there is no instance where a dex magus couldnt wear the same armor as the strength magus for the same exact AC. Worst case scenario, they are identical.

Of course by mid/late levels celestial armors are the thing, and no strength magus will fill out those dex numbers. Dex magus wins on AC all around IMO.


The slyph race (fly at will and ignore concealment from fogs) is possibly better then any other race.

Whips are slashing so can be a black blade choice.

Touch spells at range (via a whip) while flying and fog clouded as a spell action is hard to defeat.

Granted the damage explosions don't come as often but like the staff magus in a hard game with a harsh DM this build grantslife where some others fail and fall.


Is there any chance we can get included in the Guide a FAQ on the using of weapons 2handed and spell combat?

I'm almost positive I've seen a 'offical' post saying magus can not use the "free action to remove one hand from weapon. Use spell combat. Free action to re-grip weapon." but I keep seeing way too many posts saying the Magus can get away with it.


I don't think Walter is still updating the guide, seems like a long time since last update...


So,
just yesterday i noticed that apparently in my GMs german UM version someone got dazed and dazzled wrong when they were translating the Flaring Spell metamagic feat.
And my group plays straight out of the (german) books, no erratas and no english pathfinder products.
That sadly means no UC content for me ( at least until january) and no PFSFG guide content, like i.e. the lore warden class.

BUT:
- "Flaring Spell" spells with only a +1 modifikator will allow me to daze enemys who take damage.
- most of my evocations are fire or electricity or easily converted to it via a cheap metamagic rod

So it seems from now on i am going to be a battlefield controller.

Lvl 1 5d6 damage SG with 1 round of daze.
Lvl 4 fireballs with 3 rounds of daze.
And that is only the regular magus stuff.

Spells like flaming sphere, elemental aura, elemental touch and defensive shock just got a whole lot more interesting.

Of course my GM probably won´t be unimaginativ either, that means the Spell reflection arcana and rings of counterspell just got more interesting, too.

Does anybody here, with the above "translation" of the feat in mind, have some more nice ideas for a level 10 elven staff magus hexcrafter?


Matt2VK wrote:
Is there any chance we can get included in the Guide a FAQ on the using of weapons 2handed and spell combat?

It wouldn't matter if you could. Because you've invoked the TWF rules for spell combat you're stuck with a 1x modifier for power attack and strength on your primary hand weapon. See also the guy who uses a two handed weapon and uses it with armor spikes to get an offhand attack. The two handed weapon reverts to one handed math for damage, and the offhand (armor spikes) gets the half strength treatment.


Toward the end of the guide, in the Dervish Dance Build scenario:

Quote:
He can haste himself, so when he spell combats with Arcane Accuracy and arcane strike he hits for +24/+24/+19 that hit for 1d6+17 each, critting on a 15-20.

I'm missing where the +17 for the damage is coming from...I'm no pro, and I just don't know where it's all coming from

Can anyone lay it out for me?


Matt2VK wrote:

Walter's Guide to the Magus - Arcana section

I have a disagreement with his rating of Arcana: Close Range . Which he has rated at one star. This is a very good arcana, you just have to use it correctly with the 0 level ray spells.

While it is not a good idea to use Arcana: Close Range with the Magus higher level spells. The Magus only has a limited number of those he can cast per day. Where the Arcana: close Range shines is for the unlimited casting he can do with Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, and Disrupt Undead. All 0 level spells. This will add at least 1D3 to the Magus spellstrike class feature versus no damage using Arcane Mark with the Spellstrike.

Making this Arcana about equal to or better then the fighter feat: Weapon Specialization.

Close range specifically says "The Magus can deliver ray spells..." Acid Splash and Disrupt Undead aren't ray spells?


jedi.jesse wrote:


I'm missing where the +17 for the damage is coming from...I'm no pro, and I just don't know where it's all coming from
Can anyone lay it out for me?

I'll use my 10th level Dervish Dancer as an example.

Dex Mod: +7
Weapon Enhancement: +5 (+3 normally, another +2 from magus enhancement).
Arcane Strike: +3
Total: +15

The extra +2 could come from a myriad of sources, such as spells or heroic bonuses but this should get you started.

Also, I just noticed that he's using Arcane Accuracy and Arcane Strike in the same round. Since they're both swift actions, this isn't possible.


Firengineer wrote:


Dex Mod: +7

Wow, that's a lot of Dex, 24? How does that even happen?

After doing some more figuring, i was able to get up to +15 with Arcane Strike, Enhancement, and Weapon Specialization...so I guess +17 isn't too far off

Thanks for the input.


jedi.jesse wrote:
Firengineer wrote:
Dex Mod: +7
Wow, that's a lot of Dex, 24? How does that even happen?

Rather easily. 18 off the start with a 16 ability buy in and +2 from elf. Then +2 from ability score increases at level 4 and 8. Then a +4 belt that my companion made.

My Int suffers just a bit from all this, sitting at 18 when I'd like it higher. But we're in a very... magic unfriendly zone so I went more martial-focused. Not to say I can't lay down the smackdown with three Intensified shocking grasps delivered through a 15-20 keen scimitar in one round when I really need to. I haven't had to yet, but you never know!

The Exchange

Something to consider:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class.

You can then use those wands with spell combat.

------------------------------------------------
In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells)
and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.


cp wrote:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class. You can then use those wands with spell combat.

In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells) and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.

How exactly do any of these work? The spell in the wand must be in your class' spell list in order to use the wand without making a Use Magic Device check.


How about taking a first level dip in Bard with the Dawnflower Dervish Archetypes. This gives:

* Dervish Dance for free, thus effectively saving two feats

* Battle Dance which gives +2 Atk and +2 Dmg on yourself only

* A massive amount of class skills (All knowledge etc) and skill point

* Level 0 spell bard, including Lulaby that reduce save by 2 against sleep effect, sounds like a sexy combo with Slumber Hex for an Hexcrafter magus

* 2 level 1 bard spell, Saving Finale is sexy to reroll a failed save, and Dazzling Blade is pretty flavorful not to mention a potential free action blind, or maybe touch of gracelesness for dext debuff with a spellstrike.

I am hesitating what feat to take at level 1 though, but I might go either for Arcane Strike or Improved Initiative.


Kinda confused about the magus free touch attack.

In the magus class descriptor it says "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."

Does the "at his highest base attack bonus" mean that there are no additional bonus's received when the free touch attack is taken besides the base attack bonus? For instance, at level 4 I have a black blade enchanted +1 with my dexterity +5 modifier- can those be applied to the attack roll? or is it just my base attack bonus at my 4th level (+3) that is applied to that attack roll?

Thanks in advance.
where's walter?

The Exchange

Firengineer wrote:
cp wrote:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class. You can then use those wands with spell combat.

In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells) and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.

How exactly do any of these work? The spell in the wand must be in your class' spell list in order to use the wand without making a Use Magic Device check.

Exactly the point. The half elf may activate the wand without UMD since he counts as a first level wizard (or whatever): and the spell is on his class list. Alternate racial ability, (arcane training?) replacing its dual favored classes.


"How about taking a first level dip in Bard with the Dawnflower Dervish Archetypes." -

Assuming you don't need the pre req for dervish dance to gain it - then that would make a great lvl 1 fip for a dex based Kensei - you get work from lvl 1 instead of the normal 3. And you get light armor prof. Worth an other feat for the kensei.perception as a class skill.

It's unlikely you'll have the cha to get the bard spells...

Worth considering...

"at his highest base attack bonus" means if the magus has bab +5 then he can make 2 attacks with bab +5/+5 - the penalties from spell combat (-2) and bonus from str (lets assume +4) and magic weapon (lets assume +1) ALL count on both attack making the magus attack +8/+8.

As opposed to the extra attack you gain at bab +6 which is at -5 - samme exsample as above with +6 bab would be:
+9/+9/+4


Lauraliane wrote:
How about taking a first level dip in Bard with the Dawnflower Dervish Archetypes.

It's a mistake. Crossblooded sorcerer barely works due to giving +20 damage to shocking grasp. Bard for 2 feats? No thanks.

-James


cp wrote:
Firengineer wrote:
cp wrote:

Half elf can choose a different class as a favored class. Cleric. Druid. Whatever.

Half elf can then activate wands of that class. You can then use those wands with spell combat.

In a similar vein, samsaran (for bard, summoner, wizard, witch spells) and eldritch heritage can accomplish some of the same.

How exactly do any of these work? The spell in the wand must be in your class' spell list in order to use the wand without making a Use Magic Device check.
Exactly the point. The half elf may activate the wand without UMD since he counts as a first level wizard (or whatever): and the spell is on his class list. Alternate racial ability, (arcane training?) replacing its dual favored classes.

Just to help clarify, if unfamiliar with the alternate racial trait.

PRD, Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Arcane Training: Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.

Greg


james maissen wrote:

It's a mistake. Crossblooded sorcerer barely works due to giving +20 damage to shocking grasp. Bard for 2 feats? No thanks.

-James

I would disagree. It's not just 2 feats. It's 2 feats, a ton of class skills (I value skills, love to have them, if you don't, then it's less of a consideration) plus Battle Dance, which gives you +2 to hit, damage and saves for 7 rounds if you use the Maestro of the Society trait and have an 11 CHA. You can add Weaponwand with your 1st level Bard Spell. For a Magus, this is awesome. As a Tiefling 5th Level (Bard 1/Kensai 4) fully buffed (Cat's Grace, Mage Armor, Inspire Courage Battle Dance) with a +1 scimitar and Arcane Strike I'm looking at a 26 AC, +13 to hit and +11 to damage usually for 2 attacks per round (spell strike). That doesn't include the +1 arcane pool that could make that +14 to hit +12 to damage, or to make your Scimitar Keen.

What am I losing? My spell pool could be +2, My BaB would be 1 higher, and I'm a caster level down. Some would call that a fair trade.


Jodokai wrote:
james maissen wrote:

It's a mistake. Crossblooded sorcerer barely works due to giving +20 damage to shocking grasp. Bard for 2 feats? No thanks.

-James

I would disagree. It's not just 2 feats. It's 2 feats, a ton of class skills (I value skills, love to have them, if you don't, then it's less of a consideration) plus Battle Dance, which gives you +2 to hit, damage and saves for 7 rounds if you use the Maestro of the Society trait and have an 11 CHA. You can add Weaponwand with your 1st level Bard Spell. For a Magus, this is awesome. As a Tiefling 5th Level (Bard 1/Kensai 4) fully buffed (Cat's Grace, Mage Armor, Inspire Courage Battle Dance) with a +1 scimitar and Arcane Strike I'm looking at a 26 AC, +13 to hit and +11 to damage usually for 2 attacks per round (spell strike). That doesn't include the +1 arcane pool that could make that +14 to hit +12 to damage, or to make your Scimitar Keen.

What am I losing? My spell pool could be +2, My BaB would be 1 higher, and I'm a caster level down. Some would call that a fair trade.

I wouldn't. I'd call it shortsighted.

First, you're spending a trait towards this, so you can pick two class skills AND get a +1 trait bonus to them by and large. How many skills do you NEED to be class skills here?

Second, Battle Dance conflicts with the cheap ioun stone in bonus type. I'd call it a +1 to hit, +2 damage WHEN you get a round to buff. For a magus the strength of the class is NOT needing to take a round to buff. As you level this becomes more and more important. Not to mention that it doesn't last forever.. just a few rounds when you can afford to use a move action in combat- and how often is that for a magus?

Third, if you want a 1st level spell that you can cast once per day... take a wand. It will last you longer than it will be viable.

Fourth, the 11CHA is an investment. Otherwise you would have no use for the stat and could dump it entirely if desired. Consider that you are spending 5 points for this.. why not 6 and get a 2nd casting of that weaponwand spell? But in any event, this will hurt other stats that you should value more highly.

Fifth, you cannot add keen to your scimitar. You don't have that ability yet. The magus who didn't take a level of Bard can, not you. This might be the first level where taking that bard level didn't lower your AC as well (depending on your INT score).

Sixth, if you were a 5th level magus you'd have another 2nd level spell that you could cast. This seems to detract from how 'awesome' weaponwand is.. Now your archetype doesn't have spell recall, or the loss of that pool point would be yet another spell you would be down.

Now what feats have you taken with your character? You have three free (of which Arcane Strike is one). Is weapon focus another?

Compare this to the pure magus that will have two available, but will have that bonus to hit (from weapon focus) either via his weapon or his BAB. At this exact level you actually haven't saved any feats in comparison. You gain, when you have a round to prepare a bonus via the bardic ability, while you 'lose' the ability to take a feat to give yourself +1 to hit over base (as you are using it to GET to base level).

Now let's assume that at higher levels the 'pure' magus elects to take a dip into crossblooded sorcerer. At this point you are BOTH behind in magi abilities at an equal amount. Is the move action competence bonus balance out the +20 damage with shocking grasp?

It's a bad call, and a shortsighted one,

James
PS: Btw your BAB would not be higher at this level.


james maissen wrote:
I wouldn't. I'd call it shortsighted.

Entirely your prerogative, but again I disagree

james maissen wrote:
First, you're spending a trait towards this, so you can pick two class skills AND get a +1 trait bonus to them by and large. How many skills do you NEED to be class skills here?

Sure you're using a trait, but you're getting TONS of class skills, so you're actually getting +3 to pretty much every skill you take. I'd call that a win.

james maissen wrote:
Second, Battle Dance conflicts with the cheap ioun stone in bonus type. I'd call it a +1 to hit, +2 damage WHEN you get a round to buff. For a magus the strength of the class is NOT needing to take a round to buff. As you level this becomes more and more important. Not to mention that it doesn't last forever.. just a few rounds when you can afford to use a move action in combat- and how often is that for a magus?

That you can still use when you aren't dancing, except the dance is free, and can't be taken away or sundered, and provides better bonuses.

james maissen wrote:
Third, if you want a 1st level spell that you can cast once per day... take a wand. It will last you longer than it will be viable.

Ah, you whine that a move action is too costly for a Magus, and then try to convince me that two move actions and an AoO is a better idea? Color me not convinced.

james maissen wrote:
Fourth, the 11CHA is an investment. Otherwise you would have no use for the stat and could dump it entirely if desired. Consider that you are spending 5 points for this.. why not 6 and get a 2nd casting of that weaponwand spell? But in any event, this will hurt other stats that you should value more highly.

I agree, but does save feats, adds other abilities and is still effective.

james maissen wrote:
Fifth, you cannot add keen to your scimitar. You don't have that ability yet. The magus who didn't take a level of Bard can, not you. This might be the first level where taking that bard level didn't lower your AC as well (depending on your INT score).

I stand corrected, however the numbers are still pretty impressive without it.

james maissen wrote:
Sixth, if you were a 5th level magus you'd have another 2nd level spell that you could cast. This seems to detract from how 'awesome' weaponwand is.. Now your archetype doesn't have spell recall, or the loss of that pool point would be yet another spell you would be down.

Not really, you still have double the number of Zero Levels, meaning you can take things you normally couldn't, like detect poison.

james maissen wrote:
Now what feats have you taken with your character? You have three free (of which Arcane Strike is one). Is weapon focus another?

Kensai gets Weapon Focus at 1st level for free.

james maissen wrote:
Compare this to the pure magus that will have two available, but will have that bonus to hit (from weapon focus) either via his weapon or his BAB. At this exact level you actually haven't saved any feats in comparison. You gain, when you have a round to prepare a bonus via the bardic ability, while you 'lose' the ability to take a feat to give yourself +1 to hit over base (as you are using it to GET to base level).

And all it takes is a move action to be more effective.

You have two extra feats. Are you saying giving up a caster level isn't worth 2 feats? That alone most people would jump at. On top of it you're getting more zero level spells, 1 or 2 first level spells, from a different spell list, pretty much every skill as a class skills (which goes nicely with your high INT and DEX), oh and did I mention TWO free feats.


Jodokai wrote:
You have two extra feats. Are you saying giving up a caster level isn't worth 2 feats? That alone most people would jump at. On top of it you're getting more zero level spells, 1 or 2 first level spells, from a different spell list, pretty much every skill as a class skills (which goes nicely with your high INT and DEX), oh and did I mention TWO free feats.

Yes, it is short sighted. And you still didn't say which feats you took.

As to kensai, mea culpa.. I forgot they give it as a bonus feat. Still all this means is that you can't use either of those two feats on weapon focus to make up for you lowered chance to hit.

You like arcane strike, right? Between that and the better enhancement to the weapon you don't gain much with battle dance (if anything) for the 7 rounds that you can dance, when you have the move action to spare.

As to 'two move actions and an AOO'.. what are you talking about? Not following that response one bit.

To the skills.. this is the old 3e (not 3.5e but 3e) bard defense. All that potential. Which skills are you actually using this for? Compare it to say the level dip into crossblooded sorcerer to compare apples to apples. There you pick up survival, perception, disable device, umd, bluff, etc. How many other skills do you need? You have a trait to play with to give you two (and likely +1 trait bonuses to go with them).

It's just not a good option, unless you plan on spending months before 3rd level. And with weapon finesse the character is not unplayable until then, just not nearly as damaging.

-James

Grand Lodge

Close Ranged is a bit more usefull then you might think. Especialy if your GM says NO to the Arcane Mark Trick (I would)

Acid Spash becomes a Touch Attack, does 1d3 damage and you get that "free" swing with your sword.


Drothmal wrote:

- If arcane mark doesn't work but cantrips do, close range has its uses. Though keep in mind that by level 7 you probably won't be using it as much (decent number of spells + a large arcane pool + pearls of power = better options to cast each round than cantrips)

YMMV

In this circumstance, could you not use a Cracked Orange Prism to add Touch of Fatigue to your spells prepared.


Michael Sumrall wrote:
Drothmal wrote:

- If arcane mark doesn't work but cantrips do, close range has its uses. Though keep in mind that by level 7 you probably won't be using it as much (decent number of spells + a large arcane pool + pearls of power = better options to cast each round than cantrips)

YMMV

In this circumstance, could you not use a Cracked Orange Prism to add Touch of Fatigue to your spells prepared.

Wow... I had not seen that option... I guess that if the DM allows this, then it's better to spend 1k than using your arcana for close range


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Drake Brimstone wrote:

Especialy if your GM says NO to the Arcane Mark Trick (I would)

If by trick, you mean RAW.

"Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action."

Pretty cut and dried, it is not a trick, it's nothing out of the ordinary or exceptional at all.


Michael Sumrall wrote:
Drothmal wrote:

- If arcane mark doesn't work but cantrips do, close range has its uses. Though keep in mind that by level 7 you probably won't be using it as much (decent number of spells + a large arcane pool + pearls of power = better options to cast each round than cantrips)

YMMV

In this circumstance, could you not use a Cracked Orange Prism to add Touch of Fatigue to your spells prepared.

It would not work with Spellstrike:

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list

The cracked Orange Prism lets you add one Cantrip to the list of spells known, but that is not identical to your magus spell list, just like you cannot spellstrike with spells from an other spellcasting career (like bard or Sorcerer if you take a level dip.)

You would need the broad study arcana to make it work.

Better to skip close range and take touch of fatigue with the spell blending arcana.


Quote:

Yes, it is short sighted. And you still didn't say which feats you took.

-James

Since I am toying with the idea of dipping into Dawnflower Bard, too, I like to add some more thoughts.

- I get Dervish dance at level one. So I am more competetive in level 1-2. (1d6 + 4 Dex Bonus + 2 Battle Dance + 1 Arcane Strike) = 1d6+7 Looks good
Useful feat here is Arcane Strike

- At level 2 my saves are 2/2/4 instead of 3/0/3 that means I have 8 points in saves with the dip instead of just 6 points going straight, which equivalents a feat. Especially the higher Wil save is good with my low Wis.
Useful feat here is any feat increasing feat e.g. Iron Will

- If my party lacks in numbers, I can do some jobs the others cannot do, e.g. all knowledge skills are class skills now and I have some more skill points to activate the skills and the intelligence to use them.
I have access to the bard spell list, which has some very good spells in it e.g cure lesser wounds.

Useful feat here would be Breadth of Experience as an Elf

Other useful 2 feat combinations to take:
Extra Arcana - Extra Arcane Points
Spell focus - Spell Specialization (shocking Grasp) ( followed by Greater Spell Specialization later on)
Spell Penetration - Greater Spell Penetration

I could go on forever. Two extra feats are great. Far better than a single caster level.


Sandtiger wrote:


I could go on forever. Two extra feats are great. Far better than a single caster level.

Nope. Bad call.

Build the character. It will prove to be a trap for you as you level.

Extra class skills sounds great. But how many do you need? How many will you take advantage of even? Are you the only party member with those skills, and how much are you investing in all of them?

But you want to do it, go for it. But you are going to give up more than you receive. The choice is yours, but don't think that it is a 'power' or optimized choice but rather a flavor one.

-James

Scarab Sages

Sandtiger wrote:
[Better to skip close range and take touch of fatigue with the spell blending arcana.

As I just hit 6th level on my kensai I was already taking spell blending for touch of fatigue + mage armor. I can apply the funds from selling my ioun stone and silken cerimonial armor towards another item I have been looking forward to acquiring.


james maissen wrote:
Sandtiger wrote:


I could go on forever. Two extra feats are great. Far better than a single caster level.

Nope. Bad call.

Build the character. It will prove to be a trap for you as you level.

-James

Ok, just to keep it simple lets compare a single caster level for a plain vanilla magus to gaining two feats with a one level dawnflower dervish dip. Ceteris paribus

Lets say the two additional feats I take are 2*Extra Arcane Points.

I lose 1d6 damage with shocking grasp until level 11, when the maximum damage for an intensified SG equalizes.
I gain +2 damage and +2 to hit from battle dance for at least 4 rounds and I can use the arcane pool to enhance the weapon more often.

The dawnflower gets 1 or 2 spells than the plain magus, but with spell recall and extra arcane points I can get more spells. With improved spell recall at level 12 the dawnflower variant with 4 extra arcane points benefits greatly. In addition I get some Cantrips and spells from the Bard spell list.

To sum it up, after level 12 the advantages of the plain magus become negligible, but the versatility of the dawnflower variant stays

The only real disadvantage is that the dawnflower gets higher level spells one level after its counterpart.

But I get 4 more skill points and some useful class skills. If I invest 1 point/skill I get e.g. perception +4, stealth +4, knowledge religion +4, acrobatics +4, resulting in 16 skill points more.

At level 2 the plain magus has 3/0/3 in saves, the dawnflower has 2/2/4. 2 points in saves equals 1 additional feat.

Looks to me that the dawnflower dip is not inferior to a plain magus.

For getting higher level spells one level after the plain magus, the 4 extra arcane points can be applied to recall spells, pump up the weapon or use with some arcanas.


Sandtiger wrote:
To sum it up, after level 12 the advantages of the plain magus become negligible, but the versatility of the dawnflower variant stays

Tell you what then, build a level 12 PC and I'll build a level 12 PC and then we can compare apples to apples.

But do realize that along the way you have always been a level down on all the magus abilities.

At level 11, the pure magus has improved spell recall and for 1 pool point gets back a 3rd level spell. For that level your extra two feats here just help you tread water but even then don't cut it.

I still say it's not a good dip, and shortsighted. To help out in comparing apples to apples I'll take a dip at 12th. That way we don't have to compare having one more magus arcana.

Let's say standard wealth, 20pt buy, and items from www.d20pfsrd.com.

-James

Shadow Lodge

*grabs popcorn and really wants to see how this one turns out - had been debating a few different Magus options himself and is honestly curious as to how these apples to apples stack up with each other*

Scarab Sages

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Pure Magus
Human Bladebound Kensai 12
NG Medium Humanoid
Init: +14; Senses: Perception +15

Defense:

AC 31, Touch 25, Flat-footed 19 (+9 dex, +3 ins, +4 armor, +1 lck, +2 def, +2 nat)
Hp 99
Fort +14 Ref +17 Will +12

Offence:

Spd 30 ft.
Melee
. . scimitar +22 (1d6+14/15-20/x2) - unmodified
. . . attk (+9 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +3 enh)
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +3 enh, +2 spec)
. . scimitar + 18 (1d6+30/15-20/x2) - power attack, arcane strike, arcane pool(+1 enh/speed), black blade strike
. . . attk (+9 bab, +9 dex, +1 foc, +4 enh, -3 pwr, -2 spell)
. . . dmg (+9 dex, +4 enh, +2 spec, +9 pwr, +3 arc, +3 bb)


Statistics:

Str 14(+2) Dex 28(+9) Con 14(+2) Int 17(+4) Wis 10(+0) Cha 5(-3)

Base Atk +9 CMB +11 CMD 35

Feats/Traits:

Feats
. arcane strike (1)
. weapon finesse (h)
. weapon proficiency (scimitar) (k)
. weapon focus (scimitar)(k)
. dervish dance (3)
. power attack (5)
. intensify spell (5)
. weapon specialization (scimitar)(7)
. heighten spell (9)
. improved critical (scimitar) (11)
. preferred spell (shocking grasp) (11)

Arcana
. spell blending (touch of fatigue/mage armor)
. accurate strike

Traits
. Reactionary
. Magical Lineage (shocking grasp)

Favored Class
. +12 hp


Skills:

. acrobatics 12 (+21)
. climb 2 (+7)
. disable device 12 (+21)
. fly 2 (+11)
. knowledge; arcane 6 (+12)
. knowledge; planes 5 (+11)
. knowledge; dungeoneering 5 (+11)
. perception 12 (+13)
. perform; dance 2 (+11)
. spellcraft 12 (+18)
. swim 2 (+7)


Languages:

. common


Class Abilities:

. arcane pool (7)
. cantrips
. spellstrike
. canny defense
. fighter training
. iaijatsu
. critical perfection
. superior refelexes

Equipment:

Combat Gear
. Black Bladed Scimitar: +3
. belt of incredible dexterity +4
. belt of vast intelligence +4
. +2 ring of protection
. +2 amulet of natural armor
. jingasa of the fortunate soldier
. ioun stone; pale blue rhomboid (+2 str)
. cloak of resistance +4
. rod of extend, minor
. pear of power I (10)

Other Gear
. Backpack , Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Pouch, Spell Component Pouch, belt, Spellbook, Pirate Outfit,

Spells Memorized:

Level 0 (4)
. touch of fatigue
. detect magic
. mage hand
. read magic

Level 1 (5/day)
. mage armor
. shield
. expeditios retreat
. true strike
. vanish

Level 2 (5/day)
. blur
. mirror image
. glitterdust
. frigid touch
. alter self

Level 3 (4/day)
. displacement
. monstrous physique I
. vampiric touch
. elemental aura

Level 4 (2/day)
. elemental body I
. greater invisibility

I counted mage armor into base AC. The duration is 24 hours.


Ok I may jump in on this with my Kensai Build... how much gold on items do I have to spend at 12th level?

And yes I see the stupid power of Dervish Dance but I can't see a Kensai using anything but a Katana ::sighs::

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