doctor_wu wrote: I have another idea that might be great at low levels take magical lineage shocking grasp and merciful spell at first level applying this to shocking graps lets you add +leveld6 nonlethal electricity damage all day long to use with spellstrike all day long. Actually, this feat does not ADD nonlethal dmg, it changes the dmg your spell does TO nonlethal dmg.
EDIT- ah, ah-hah, I now see where you were going with this.
Merciful spell is a +0, so the magical lineage would drop it down -1, to a Cantrip. Ergo 'all day long'.
Interesting, and my DM might allow it just because he likes sneaky stuff like that, (and you would be doing non-lethal dmg) But I'm fairly certain that the rules will not allow you to drop the level of a spell below it's actual level. (?!)
Otherwise, well, having an unlimited stunning /spellstrike attack WOULD be pretty cool,... ;P
Magical Lineage and Merciful Spell clearly weren't designed to be used together (probably an oversight considering they were released in the same book), hence there is no wording that prevents lowering the spell's level below its default. But it's safe to assume that most GMs won't let you so blatantly abuse the rules. Just like you can't increase the level beyond 9th, lowering it below its actual level doesn't make any sense. If your GM is up for it though, then by all means, shock away.
Ragadolf wrote: Ditto, very full of useful info. :)
I have made my first magus PC (starting at 5th level, still tweaking as we haven't quite started yet) and had a question regarding the dancing weapon property, and the dancing weapon Arcana,
I decided it was worth taking teh Arcana, as it costs 1 arcana point to make your weapon dance, as opposed to the 4 arcana points to make it dance using the basic magus ability to add weapon properties.
My question is, how many weapons can you make dance at the same time? using one, the other, or both abilities? ;P
My original concept was to have my magus (dex based but not dervish, using rapier) use the Arcana to have a longsword (better base dmg, but maybe another rapier for crit?) start dancing on the 1st round, then quick draw his rapier and still be armed/attack the same round. so following rounds you have dancing sword attack, your standard attack, and your spellstrike attack. (Also, add the 'Dancing Dagger' spell to prevent AoO's while casting):)
Is there a limitation that prevents me from dancing more swords in later rounds? or at least using the Dancing weapon enhancement to add another dancing weapon to my collection?
Thank you, and keep up the good discussion! I appreciate the help! :D
*cracks knuckles* Alright, I'll do what I can here.
To start with, the cost for adding dancing with Arcane pool is still only a single point. Arcane Pool on your weapon does not increase in cost as you level, merely in the benefit it gives. If your DM has been charging you increased cost (in arcane pool points) for weapon qualities or higher enhancements, he's been rewriting the class from how it was published, and you should make him stop. If you've been doing it, you've been taxing your resources unfairly, and you should stop.
Arcane pool is very specifically limited to only being active on one weapon at a time (it's written right into the ability that trying to activate it a second time ends the first activation), which means that using that ability alone you will only ever be able to have one weapon dancing at a time (unless, of course, you own weapons with Dancing built in).
I'm not sure what arcana you're referring to in your idea, since there is no arcana that applies dancing in paizo core material. If you are referring to the 3PP material Animate Weapon, I can't really offer much insight beyond the wording I just linked to. From the linked text, it doesn't look like there are any limitations on the number of weapons you can affect with it at once, beyond the limitation of how many swift actions you can perform before they start falling out of the sky.
I also can't seem to find a "dancing dagger" spell on the reference sites, so I can't provide any insight on that use. However, your average magus doesn't need to worry too much about provoking AoOs, because spell combat allows them to avoid those (alternately, because they have high enough HP to accept one or two).
Reading the dancing quality, I do not see anything that makes me believe you're limited to only having one dancing weapon active at a time, if you can afford to be in possession of multiple weapons with the quality. However, if your goal is base damage over crits with the dancing weapon, I'd recommend going with an oversized two handed weapon, like a huge scythe. Sure, you can't wield it when it isn't dancing, but the great thing about dancing is that you don't need to be able to do so.
Thank you very much! :)
Yes, Sorry, I'm still learning the names of the new spells /powers,
-The spell I called 'Dancing Dagger' is actually 1st level 'Warding Weapon'. ;P
I like your interpretation, but,...
Edit- Ah, Ah HAH. I think I see now. Re-reading the Arcane Pool description closer, it 'consumes an amount of BONUS equal to the properties base modifier' Not 'POINTS equal to the properties base modifier'.
Thank you. :)
And I like your scythe idea. :D
My original concept was a (spellblade) Magus coming at you with a rapier in one hand, a spellblade in the other, a dagger defending from AoO's, and as many dancing weapons as he had time to (legally) create! :)
I just liked the image once I got it, and tried to make it actually happen!
Great guide Walter and great thread.
Thanx for all your hard work!
Ragadolf wrote: doctor_wu wrote: I have another idea that might be great at low levels take magical lineage shocking grasp and merciful spell at first level applying this to shocking graps lets you add +leveld6 nonlethal electricity damage all day long to use with spellstrike all day long. Actually, this feat does not ADD nonlethal dmg, it changes the dmg your spell does TO nonlethal dmg.
EDIT- ah, ah-hah, I now see where you were going with this.
Merciful spell is a +0, so the magical lineage would drop it down -1, to a Cantrip. Ergo 'all day long'.
Interesting, and my DM might allow it just because he likes sneaky stuff like that, (and you would be doing non-lethal dmg) But I'm fairly certain that the rules will not allow you to drop the level of a spell below it's actual level. (?!)
Otherwise, well, having an unlimited stunning /spellstrike attack WOULD be pretty cool,... ;P Metamagic feats cannot be reduced below +0 modifier no matter how many changes you apply to it, it's been that way since 3.0.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Metamagic feats cannot be reduced below +0 modifier no matter how many changes you apply to it, it's been that way since 3.0. Do you have a quote for this in Pathfinder?
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the reasoning "It was X way in 3.X" is not at all valid.
Lots of things are now different than they were in 3.x.
True here is a great post from Serisen that shows how this doesn't work.
Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Your damaging spells subdue rather than kill.
Benefit: You can alter spells that inflict damage to inflict nonlethal damage instead. Spells that inflict damage of a particular type (such as fire) inflict nonlethal damage of that same type. A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell's actual level.
It's not that it has a +0 level adjust. It has no level adjust. Therefore, you cannot reduce it with Magical Lineage, as the spell was not adjusted. This "trick" has been discussed before with Magic Missiles and other level 1 damage spells in the past. Fortunately for everyone else, it doesn't work.
I was just wondering what your take on some of the newer options for the Magus were - specifically the archetypes. I was considering building a Bladebound-Kensai for PFS but I'm not sure how well it would do in a Society setting.
What are the recommendations for those of us playing Society?
KrispyXIV wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, but the reasoning "It was X way in 3.X" is not at all valid.
Lots of things are now different than they were in 3.x.
Not things that haven't been changed.
A new edition does not mean that everything is up for grabs and start from scratch.. but rather we'll take that as a base and change some things from it.
-James
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is
So, I know that I'm jumping in late on the bandwagon, but first, I'd just like to say that I'm a big fan of the magus class in all it's myriad forms. This is the class that I've been wanting to play ever since I got into RPGs.
So, my 2cp is going back to the beginning of this thread, and reading all of the groupthink, why aren't people advocating the falcata more? As a flavor, I think that starting out as a lv. 1 Barbarian, then taking Magus for the other 19 levels is a very solid option. That way, there's none of this "Don't activate till level 3" nonsense. With a 20 point half elf build looking something like:
Str 19
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 7
You can even take the much-lamented and kicked-about power attack at lv.1
The fact that you can just use a hvy shield will negate the AC penalty from raging, if you even need to rage.
Plus Raging will help a nice bit in the Nova Mode with Enlarge Person.
At lv. 5 we're talking about 26 str. (+8 dmg) power attacking (+4dmg) large (2d6) falcata, with whatever extra little helpers that would go on a dervish build (arcane strike, use arcane points, etc.)
with the much hyped, seemingly standard shocking grasp spellstrike, we're talking 2d6+12, 2d6+12, 4d6 from 10 ft. away. Now I step back 5 ft. and get a nice little AoO Next turn.
Quick question - for that AoO, do I get to use 2 hands on the falcata, since my spell combat action is over?
Anyway, the total damage output is 8d6 +24. From what I understand, the Dervish build puts out 1d6+5, 1d6+5, 5d6 (7d6+10) in a similar circumstance. Even if the Dervish crits...twice... it's 14d6 + 20...
about 17 damage over the not-critting-at-all falcata. If the falcata does crit, even on the non-shocking attack, I think that the extra 4d6+24 will outshine the dervish.
Now please tell me why the Dervish is better. (I know, I know, we like our AC, but really, If we've done our job right, there won't be too many chances to get hit, seeing as how the other guy is on the floor bleeding, right?)
how do you cast spells while raging?
As I understand it - and I could totally be wrong on this -
Step 1
Cast touch spell
Step 2
Start rage
Step 3
Deliver touch spell through weapon using spellstrike
Step 4
Continue attack with spell combat
Of course, I could be wrong on this. Mainly, I'm just advocating having a playable and effective character from level 1. The prevalent theme seems to be "just wait till level 3!", and I want to jump in right away and bust some heads together. Perhaps (if the above process is not legit, although I *think* it is) starting with a level of fighter would be worthwhile as an alternative. Although, even if you don't rage with spell combat/spellstrike, I think that it's nice to have options (combat maneuvers, single attacks, TWF). Also, I've been thinking that having EWP Katana is a pretty beast choice, if falcatas aren't the "in" thing.
You COULD go Barbarian1.. But you would need to either find some way to become immune to fatigue (1 level of Lame Oracle?) or be a human for Heart of the Fields... and lose Falcata. Which tbh does not offer the magus too much in the first place, as the majority of damage done will be through spells.
You can't cast spells with a shield (your suggestion to loss of AC).
Most peoples issue with Power Attack is that Magus is already a 3/4 BAB class, and decreasing our attack even further is not a good idea (which in your build is negated by Rage).
For the AoO I would follow the rule that however you attacked during your round is how you attack on the AoO.
That being said, you only get 4-6 rounds of rage (+3 with trait) per day for your entire career. Doesn't seem worth the loss in CL to me, in the end. So 1-2 battles a day you can spike out some extra damage, and then get fatigued.
I'll stick to full Magus..
galahad2112 wrote: As I understand it - and I could totally be wrong on this -
Step 1
Cast touch spell
Step 2
Start rage
Step 3
Deliver touch spell through weapon using spellstrike
Step 4
Continue attack with spell combat
Of course, I could be wrong on this. Mainly, I'm just advocating having a playable and effective character from level 1. The prevalent theme seems to be "just wait till level 3!", and I want to jump in right away and bust some heads together. Perhaps (if the above process is not legit, although I *think* it is) starting with a level of fighter would be worthwhile as an alternative. Although, even if you don't rage with spell combat/spellstrike, I think that it's nice to have options (combat maneuvers, single attacks, TWF). Also, I've been thinking that having EWP Katana is a pretty beast choice, if falcatas aren't the "in" thing.
In step 2-3, I don't think you can maintain the charge for spellstrike while raged. Katana's extra crit range is better for the magus.
@dunebugg
A human with heart of the fields replaces the skilled trait, not the feat, and since I would have the requisite BAB, I'd be just fine. Really, the 1/2 Elf was more for the nifty traits and the +2 to perception.
The shield can easily be dropped as part of a move action (doesn't even provoke AoO).
For the most part, I absolutely agree with power attack hurting on a 3/4 BAB... But for the first few levels, it really shines, and throughout the (almost) entire life of a PFS character the rage will offset it.
As far as I know, there is a magick trait that gives a bonus to CL...
Of course, that does bring up the point of NOT having a free Intensify spell later... Hmmm....Maybe I'll take Lunge instead... you know, on an Enlarged Person a 15 foot reach is pretty nasty. Really, at this point, we talk about feat management. The Dervish build takes weapon finesse and Dervish dance, and doesn't really get cooking till level 3. I can afford to take power attack, and still have a feat to blow. Maybe I want Combat expertise so that I can go down the trip chain, and spell combat without the worry of AoO, and I'll be much more liely to hit.
As for spells per day, I'm shy one or two spells per day - tops. At that rate I'm actually AHEAD of some of the Archetypes!
The Damage mostly being done through spells, I'm sure hinges on Intensify Spell, right? Sure, that extra (up to)5d6 is nice... but when I'm attacking, with an equal or potentially better attack bonus, ALL of my melee attacks do AT LEAST 1d6 more than the dervish builds. Besides, I don't really want to tie myself down to just shocking grasp. Don't get me wrong - It's a great spell and combined with Intensify, they're two great tastes that taste great together. Besides, If I REALLY want intensify spell...I'll take it anyway, and happily apply it as a 2nd level spell.
Besides, I like the more sanguine spells, like Brow Gasher. Bleed damage, and a blind effect, and I'll just burn a cantrip to get my spell combat off, anyway.
Look, I'm not saying that this is the be-all end-all of Magus builds. I just think that it would be a really fun to play build, and would be effective throughout the life of the character.
To me, it all boils down to options. This build has a ton. He's not speced to be the best at anything, really. But he's well rounded enough to handle almost anything thrown at him, and do it with a smile on his lips, a song in his heart, and a bloody corpse at his feet.
@Arcaleth
Would it be legit to just swap step 2&3?
Hi, I'm a newbie, so bear with me. I'm so impressed with the guide and with this thread, but I'm a little confused by a few things:
The first is that in the guide, Walter says that a Dervish Dancer won't use medium or heavy armor- why wouldn't I, if I came across some?
OK, Spellstrike. Can we just go through what this would look like in gameplay? Let's say I want to do my melee attack and use this in conjunction with spell combat to deliver shocking grasp. Do I roll one die, at a -2 penalty, and if I hit I hit with both spell and sword, or two dice, one for each attack? And if it's two dice, does the attack that includes the spell also have an associated melee attack?
I feel like I'm missing something in the whole Arcane Mark debate. Is there damage it does somewhere? How would if help me fight if I can deliver an inscription with my scimitar at a -2 penalty?
It seems like at later levels, I'll be able to use the same spell over and over- is this because of spell recall, or is there another method for using, say, shocking grasp twice in one combat?
Thanks for your help!
galahad2112 wrote: @Arcaleth
Would it be legit to just swap step 2&3?
Yes, but the problem isn't the order... its the raging and casting together. You can cast OR you can rage. To my knowledge you can't cast, spellstrike, or spellcombat while raging. I could be wrong. There might be an archetype, or feat, or third party material that allows for some of those abilities to be used in conjunction, but I don't remember seeing one. Cool character concept though. I don't think the dervish dancers are the end all be all either, but they are one of the stronger options.
@galahad2112
I happen to agree that the dervish dance build is not perfect, and the only option to play an effective character. I currently play a strength based hexblade Magus with a black blade.. it's fun.
The falcata is a pretty nice weapon if you want to get static buffs to your damage like Weapon Specialization. But multiclassing delays access to the later abilities, so you should have a good reason for doing so - I might get a level or 2 of monk for the saves and the bonus feats (having a hand free most of the time is a perk of the Magus class - why not use it to deflect arrows? ^^)
My post from another threat:
I decided on the following for my Magus:
Danaris Kosuke Andarin
LN Magus 4
Stats:
STR: 19 (16 point buy +2 human +1 from leveling )
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (my black blade katana)
Magical Lineage
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Katana) (legal since the Katana is a martial weapon)
Armor: currently chain shirt
Hex: still undecided; evil eye screws up spell combat action economy,
My planed Build:
Feats per Level:
1. Toughness, Dodge
3. Weapon Focus (katana)
5. Intensify Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7. Elemental Spell / Piercing Spell / Combat Casting / Spell Penetration
9. Lunge / Spell Penetration / Combat Casting
11. Improved Critical (katana), Quicken Spell
13. Extra Arcana (to pick up an arcana - spell blending sounds good - or another major hex )
15. Spell Perfection (shocking grasp could be fun, or maybe vampiric touch)
17. Greater Weapon Focus (katana), Extra Arcana
Magus Arcana:
3. None
6. no idea - arcane accuracy locks good
9. wand wielder - or another hex
12. Retribution hex Icy Tomb hex - or devoted blade
15. Bane blade
18. ???
Now to warn you: Weapon Specialization is a trap, don't take it +2 damage is inconsequential when you do 10d6 bonus damage with you spellstrikes.
@ Arcaleth
So, I'm kind of in the murky water territory on this too. Do you have an example of where it states that you can't rage in conjuction with spells? I mean, as far as I know, there's no conflict with the free action activation - free actions are just that - and certainly, once the spell goes off, there's nothing to stop me from taking ANY free action, is there? I mean, If I TWF, I can activate between attacks. I can even activate between a +6/+1 BAB full attack, and that's with the same weapon!
Of course, There are certainly things that I may be overlooking, but currently, I don't know what, or more to the point, where they are...???
BTW, thanks for saying that the concept is cool! I appreciate it.
galahad2112 wrote:
Now please tell me why the Dervish is better. (I know, I know, we like our AC, but really, If we've done our job right, there won't be too many chances to get hit, seeing as how the other guy is on the floor bleeding, right?)
Let's see...
A better to hit roll, a better chance to crit, being able to cast more spells during combat, a better AC, a better INIT score, a better REF save, higher caster level, better concentration score, better enhancement on your weapon, etc.
That's off the top of my head and before mentioning not needing a round to prep (enlarge person).
Without the round to prep and assuming you are starting in full attack range:
At 5th level you have a +2 stat item for a 22base stat, a +1 weapon and a 4BAB. You swift action make your falcata +2, defensively cast a shocking grasp spell (DC 17 on a d20+6), then rage, power attack and make your attack (or attacks if you made the 50-50 concentration check).
You have a +12 to hit (4BAB 8STR 2MAGIC -2Power attack). If you hit you are dealing 1d8 + 2(magic)+8(STR)+4(Powerattack) for 1d8+14. Your shocking grasp, if cast, is 4d6 damage.
At 5th level the dervish magus has a +2 stat item for a 22 base stat, a +1 weapon and a 3BAB. He makes a swift action to either make his weapon +3 or +2 keen, etc. He defensively casts a shocking grasp spell (DC 17 on a d20+9), then he makes his attack(s) (note the concentration check is MUCH higher, and this is before any trait/feat).
He has a +12 to hit as well (3BAB 6DEX 3Magic). If he hits he deals 1d6+9. The shocking grasp is for 5d6 damage.
In essence you deal 6 more damage, though the magus gets a +3.5 on the shocking grasp.
You cannot cast during the rest of the fight... if you end rage then you are at a -1 (or -3) to hit compared to the dervish magus, and are doing less damage than they are.
Your AC is around a 15. The Dervish's AC is around a 21. Either of you can look to put up a shield spell.. but you need to drop out of rage to do so...
-James
lukewarm wrote: Hi, I'm a newbie, so bear with me. I'm so impressed with the guide and with this thread, but I'm a little confused by a few things:
The first is that in the guide, Walter says that a Dervish Dancer won't use medium or heavy armor- why wouldn't I, if I came across some?
OK, Spellstrike. Can we just go through what this would look like in gameplay? Let's say I want to do my melee attack and use this in conjunction with spell combat to deliver shocking grasp. Do I roll one die, at a -2 penalty, and if I hit I hit with both spell and sword, or two dice, one for each attack? And if it's two dice, does the attack that includes the spell also have an associated melee attack?
I feel like I'm missing something in the whole Arcane Mark debate. Is there damage it does somewhere? How would if help me fight if I can deliver an inscription with my scimitar at a -2 penalty?
It seems like at later levels, I'll be able to use the same spell over and over- is this because of spell recall, or is there another method for using, say, shocking grasp twice in one combat?
Thanks for your help!
Most Dervish Dancer build use the Kensai archetype - that gives you INT to AC, but prohibits the use of armor. Of course even the vanila Dervish Dancer will have a very high DEX, so only the light armor allows you to add all your DEX to your AC.
Spellstrike: Only 1 attack roll - you might have to cast defensively though. If you roll and confirm a critical threat your weapon deals the usual critical hit damage - the spell damage multiplier is only x2.
Essentiall casting Arcane Mark - of another touch spell allows a low level Magus to swing his weapon twice (at a -2 penality) even if the arcane mark doesn´t deal damage. I would suggest to get yourself another touch spell via trait or archetype to avoid the argument, the brand cantrip is a nice option.
Spell recall - if you get it - or buy/craft lots of pearls of power 1st
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pearl -of-power they are dirt cheap.
With the right trait a 10d6 shocking grasp comes out of a level 1 slot.
@ lukewarm
1. A dervish would most likely not use Medium or Heavy armor because their dex bonus would exceed the armor's max dex allowance. It's just an economy thing, for the most part.
2. So, using Spellstrike in conjunction with spell combat. So, you want to cast Shocking Grasp with spellstrike...Yes, very good....Who doesn't, right? Anyway, you basically do it like this.
A. decide whether to attack with your weapon first, or cast a spell.
B. If it's the attack, go ahead and make the attack like you normally would with Two Weapon Fighting. (Read : take a -2 on the attack)
C.1. If it's the spell, cast the spell normally (decide whether to cast defensively to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, etc.)
C.2. You have successfully cast the spell. It now makes is warm and crackly domain in you off hand.
C.3 Decide whether you want to make the attack granted by shocking grasp as a regular touch attack (you just make an attack roll against his touch AC), OR you can deliver the spell via Making a free attack (just EXACTLY like in part B. If you hit, the bad guy gets the spell damage AND your weapon damage), OR you can choose to hold the spell in your hand for just a moment longer and make the regular attack first(a la step B. again)
D. Make the other attack (if you still have the spell in your hand, you can again choose between making a regular touch attack against the opponent's Touch AC[the bad guy takes spell damage only], OR make an attack like in part B.[the bad guy takes spell and weapon damage])
So basically, you get to choose EXACTLY when in your turn you CAST the spell, when you DELIVER the spell, and HOW you deliver it. If you use spell strike (assuming you successfully cast the spell) Both attacks will look like step B. This is the recommended way to do it, but the CHOICE is yours.
The deal with arcane mark is that it is a Touch spell, and thus, even though it deals no damage, it grants a touch attack (as spellstrike requires). It's a clever way to get a spellstrike in conjuction with spell combat, without spending a precious spell slot.
@ James
Sure, there are some things that do require some planning. I will admit that I do require a round to prep. However, the idea is to get within 15 feet, and force the enemy to come to me. I can almost always back up with a 5-foot step, not have to cast defensively, and thus have a MUCH greater chance of making those two attacks...65% vs near 100%, and BTW, I did have another feat to blow since the comparison was between a Dervish with wpn finesse and Dervish Dance, vs me with just power attack...Maybe I take combat casting? Even at close quarters, I've got a 5%edge...of course, there are so many TASTY feats to choose from... who knows, maybe I got Improved trip from somewhere nutty? Much easier to hit a foe who is on the ground. And It gives him quite the penalty to hit me back, eh?
I like the trait combo with intensify, however, I think that I'd be better served by the +2 caster level. So 5d6 vs. 5d6.
However, the Enlarged Falcata (although, it has been suggested that I use a katana... either way) the new base damage is 2d6+15 so I'll get an extra 2d6+12 on regular hits. Plus a likely AoO to start the day off right!
It has been suggested that I use a human with Heart of the fields to negate an instance of fatigue. That might help.
Of course, there is the lovely idea that maybe I don't power attack...I still get the extra 2d6 albeit now only +4...but my attack roll is +14 for both...
The point is that there are certainly ways to overcome the handicaps that seem inherent. The real bonus is that my character didn't have to struggle through 2 levels before they could do what they were supposed to do. He's not the most specialized character, but he's got great versatility, and is pretty darn good at everything that he does.
galahad2112 wrote: BTW, I did have another feat to blow since the comparison was between a Dervish with wpn finesse and Dervish Dance, vs me with just power attack.. Actually you don't.. the opposite is true.
You spent a feat on the Falcata and Power attack. The dervish spent on weapon finesse and dervish dance. Sounds equal so far. But the dervish magus has a bonus feat at 5th that you haven't gotten yet.
As to assuming that the enemy is going to elect to close to the raging enlarged fighter-type.. well that doesn't always happen. If anything they get out of cleave patterns, spread out and throw things assuming there aren't better targets.
Anyone can max STR, get power attack and be enlarged to look impressive at low levels... but to get your barb dip to stick you're going to have to make it worthwhile to rage at higher levels as well.. and you won't as it precludes spellcasting.
Now I'm not saying that you can't make this a valid character.. but the dip is going to give very diminishing returns.
-James
@ James
So, wait, what build are you referencing? I think that I may have the stat #s confused...
I got my falcata and Power attack at lv.1...I guess that at lv. 5 we ARE tied for feats....maybe you'd like to compare lv.6? for the next 4 levels, I'd have more feats. And I'd be able to keen my sword at lv. 6, and we'd be even for a few more levels on that score, too.
You're absolutely right about them not necessarily wanting to toe the line with the big bad rager. Why should they? Pass the buck, I always say!
Of course, if they shy away, I've got more than enough move speed to close on them. Who knows? Maybe I'll pull out a whip as part of my move action towards them and go for a trip...Nothing to lose on that one, really. Shoot, I could even spellstrike them with my super-long whip (30ft reach, right?)
So, BTW, what does the dervish magus do for the early game? No judgements, just curious.
One of the big points you're missing is that you get VERY LITTLE RAGE (which doesn't let you cast spells) for the cost of a level of magus. And losing out on spells (what level you get them at). Unless you're only doing 1 battle a day then you won't get enough out of your single level dip.
Really the issue is he originally stated he wanted to do awesome damage right out of the gate but now he's spending a full round at the beginning of every fight casting enlarge person and then moving into combat.
Also trying to use power attack one handed is kind of inefficient (you can't 2hd during the round you are using spell combat) so it rarely mixes with spell combat very well.
Finally where are you getting this 15 ft reach from? Lunge requires Bab of 6 which you won't have until 7th level making this a dip that doesn't pay off for a LONG time.
You appear to be desperately trying to make this idea work and at every step you are nerfing your spellcasting ability into the dirt.
If you really want to be a enlarged power attacking monster just do a 1 level dip into Magus and take barbarian the rest of the way.
That's the only way this build will do you any good.
galahad2112 wrote: .maybe you'd like to compare lv.6? for the next 4 levels, I'd have more feats. And I'd be able to keen my sword at lv. 6, and we'd be even for a few more levels on that score, too.
Or level 4? Both at 6th and 4th we're tied for BAB.
galahad2112 wrote:
So, BTW, what does the dervish magus do for the early game? No judgements, just curious.
At 1st level he uses a bow primarily.
When needed he can cast shield, fight defensively and tank. While doing so he can nuke his hitroll to cast a color spray, also fighting defensively (and missing a huge ooze at that point). The typical dervish build has a reasonable INT so the save and the possible boost to concentration gives it a reasonable chance (say a +11 concentration counting a trait's bonus).
At 2nd level he can use spell strike with a rapier for damage should he need to melee. Likely he's shielded (possibly via scrolls) and having a 22-25 AC which at 2nd level let's him tank a bit.
By 3rd level he ramps up what he can do, so I'm guessing you mean 1st and 2nd level.
-James
@Dunebugg
yes, I'm still slaving away with my pidly little level one spells at character level 4.
But a question - Why exactly can't I cast and rage the same turn? Maybe I'm being a little imbecilic, but I'm not familiar with any rule saying that I can't.
@ Mathwei ap Niall
I certainly wouldn't say EVERY fight. I'm pretty sure that with a party of 4-6 people, someone else can OCCASIONALLY do something useful.
Sometimes the Power attack isn't that bad, even one handed. Besides, you don't HAVE to use it. Even so, I'm pretty sure that I can still use two hands on my falcata or katana or fossilized whale dong, or whatever one-handed weapon that I'm currently wielding - and even power attack, should I deem it necessary - with spellstrike, right? I mean, there might be one round in each combat that I wouldn't be able to get off a full attack. Maybe the guy died with my first blow...What then?
The 15 foot reach isn't actually 15 feet. It's 10. However, if the enemy moves towards me, close enough to attack, they will usually have to move 10 feet, thus negating any chance of getting attacked multiple times by THEIR full attack. Plus, I get a free AoO when they do come at me.
Perhaps you were wondering about the 30 foot reach of a large whip? I seem to recall that a large weapon is double in size from a medium one.
As to Nerfing my spellcasting ability, it is true that I get access to spells one level later. However, I'll only be missing out on 2 or 3 spells per day. The same cannot be said of some full progression Magus Archetypes!
Furthermore, I feel that If I were to do a massive barbarian build, dipping into magus is rather pointless, isn't it? I'd be much more effective taking a fighter dip, or even taking a barbarian dip into a fighter progression!
Sorry if this has been cleared up already, but 880 posts is too much to wade through. ;)
How is your Shocking Grasp hitting for 30d6?
5d6 base.
10d6 after Intensified Spell
x2 crit with high crit range weapons (like Scimitar)
=20d6
Is there some feat or ability you're using to bump the x2 to a x3 or something?
@ james
While I think that it's a good plan for every character to have a ranged option, I certainly couldn't see using a bow all that often in combat. Even with a very high dex, the -4 into melee is nasty.
The Color Spray option is certainly very nice, but you only get a few per day. I certainly cant see using it every combat...but maybe that's just the color spray in my eyes ;P
No, really, though, at those low levels, aren't you falling victim to the same ploy of buffing for the first round that I am dealing with? OH, he can tank, and fight defensively, etc. Well...Why couldn't anybody do that just as well? I mean, don't get me wrong drawing attacks and not taking damage is all well and good, but it doesn't seem all that appealing. To each his own, eh?
BTW, at level 4 I am up a feat on you...just saying... Then again, you can use 2nd level spells, so...yeah.
@Neo
Empowered spell. a +2 lv adjust for + 50% extra variable.
Don't they also maximize with spell perfection for 180 dmg also?
galahad2112 wrote: Well...Why couldn't anybody do that just as well? Because some people might just have a 16AC and a barbarian level?
-James
galahad2112 wrote: @Neo
Empowered spell. a +2 lv adjust for + 50% extra variable.
Don't they also maximize with spell perfection for 180 dmg also?
Just so I'm clear, the norm is to be using Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasps, burning through 4th lvl spell slots after metamagic?
Also, maximize and empower don't stack like that. It wouldn't be 180 damage, it would be 120+10d6 damage (assuming a crit of course).
Maybe 3rd level slots w/magical lineage. Especially after improved spell recall.
I'm not sure when spell perfection hits (15?)
galahad2112 wrote: Maybe 3rd level slots w/magical lineage. Especially after improved spell recall.
I'm not sure when spell perfection hits (15?)
Perfection hits at 15th.. at which point via magical lineage you spend a 1st and 3rd level slot each round for:
1. Empowered Intensified Shocking grasp (1st level slot)
2. Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking grasp (3rd level slot)
Via preferred spell you are changing in 1st & 3rd level memorized spells for them.
You then replace them via pearls and improved spell recall respectively... at 15th you're looking at around 13 or so points in the pool, so you can easily afford this if you're not using the pool for other things.
-James
galahad2112 wrote: @Dunebugg
But a question - Why exactly can't I cast and rage the same turn? Maybe I'm being a little imbecilic, but I'm not familiar with any rule saying that I can't.
Barbarian Rage:
Quote: ...
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
^ above applies to spellcasting. Unless somehow paizo didn't intend for it to mean, and it's a 3.5 relic and everybody is wrong.
right, right. I get that I wouldn't be able to rage and then cast a spell, but how about casting the spell then raging?
dunebugg wrote: galahad2112 wrote: @Dunebugg
But a question - Why exactly can't I cast and rage the same turn? Maybe I'm being a little imbecilic, but I'm not familiar with any rule saying that I can't.
Barbarian Rage:
Quote: ...
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
^ above applies to spellcasting. Unless somehow paizo didn't intend for it to mean, and it's a 3.5 relic and everybody is wrong. Technically you still can here's what it would look like:
[spellcombat]
-Cast a Spell
-5-foot step (Free)
-Deliver spell if it's a touch spell.
-Rage (Free)
-Full-attack.
If you pick up Heart of the Fields Human racial trait or take a single level dip into Oracle with the lame curse to negate the fatigued condition either once per day or permanantly.
It's not extremely optimal, but it can be done. Granted you can't rage while fatigued so it might have very limited use if you don't dip oracle. Otherwise you could simply be satisfied not casting after you rage, or eating the rounds of fatigue before repeating the process. The tactic seems to mesh well with how a Magus tends to Nova hard to begin with, even if it's not stellar.
Edit: Ninja'd.
@gallahad2112, just got back in front of a computer, but it looks like dunebugg and Waltz beat me to your answers. Waltz has the right idea too. Your build idea can work just fine, but there will be a trade off.
Has anyone attempted the Magus with Words of Power? I know it is not ideal, but the only magic that exists in the gameworld I am going to be running my Magus in is WoP. Any particularly good word combinations? Also, does anyone understand why a Magus does not start out with any 0 level Words? I find that kind of odd.
Hell if you wanted to ignore fatigue without dipping into a class or playing human with HoF. You could always spend oodles of money on Allnight from AA. To completely ignore Fatigue for 8 hours at a time. Juice up after around 7 hours of casual adventuring and you're good for another 8 hours and at that point there's only 9 more hours in 24 hours which is conveniently how long it takes to rest and prepare spells along with remove the exhausted/fatigued condition.
So you can basically rage/cast for 53% of the time you're awake at your own leisure for 75gp and a -2 to skill checks. The price is steep but it's an option.
@gallahad2112, you may also want to look at some of the self polymorph spells later on. (Monsterous physique and Elemental form) Once you get to a high enough level those spell lines help you accomplish some of the same things (and then some) as enlarging and raging while still allowing you to cast spells.
galahad2112 wrote: right, right. I get that I wouldn't be able to rage and then cast a spell, but how about casting the spell then raging? At low levels you get a benefit.
At mid levels other magi will be casting every round and you will fall behind.
At high levels other magi will be casting twice every round and you will choose not to use your 6 rounds of rage when you want to do damage.
As to at 1st level not feeling like a magus.. neither build really feels 'like a magus' at that point. The dervish usually uses a bow or tries to delay by corking for the rest of the party. Your barbarian (cause he's not a magus at all at this point) is in the front, but certainly cannot be called a magus.
By 2nd level the dervish magus is in the front line spellstriking which feels like a magus to me. The 2nd level mutt is burning the consumables the dervish is using for shocking grasp on enlarges. The later is raging and mixing it up a bit.. but honestly can be doing just as well two-handing his weapon rather than using spell combat.
By 3rd level we agree that the dervish is online.
So I don't think that you've 'solved' anything here. You have a level dip that's going to progressively hurt for taking it. The levels that this is to smooth over boils down to 1st level which frankly is not that much of a hit.
-James
@ James
You know what?.... You're right. Except that you pluralized "Level"
Also, why will they be casting twice and I won't?
My "mutt" will not be burning spells for enlarge. It has a casting time of 1 round. If I need the enlarge (which isn't always the case) I drink a potion. My spell combat is still a viable option, I just don't get the spellstrike feature. which, really, for the extra 1d6 of rapier damage....I don't feel like I'm missing out on much. Besides, at level 3, we should be more equal, as you've got Dervish Dance, and now I have Spellstrike.
So, my intent wasn't to "solve" anything...If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Of course, I leave it up to you to consider whether the dervish magus is "broken" in any way... :)
I just wanted to put out an idea that would be fun to play and wouldn't be horribly ineffective.
galahad2112 wrote:
Also, why will they be casting twice and I won't?
Because you'll be raging and are not able to cast while raging. After raging you are fatigued with it's own penalties.
galahad2112 wrote:
My "mutt" will not be burning spells for enlarge. It has a casting time of 1 round. If I need the enlarge (which isn't always the case) I drink a potion.
I agree.. which is why I said:
Me wrote: The 2nd level mutt is burning the consumables the dervish is using for shocking grasp on enlarges. I had both PCs benefiting from using consumables there.
Now back to the show:
galahad2112 wrote:
I just wanted to put out an idea that would be fun to play and wouldn't be horribly ineffective.
You are falling into the trap that many multiclass builds do.. you look better early on, but then it gets progressively worse and worse.
The problem is, at mid to high levels, the magus is using spell combat each round to 'keep up with the Joneses' much like a rogue uses sneak attack and a monk burns ki while flurrying. While raging you can't pull this off.
Consider what a level of sorcerer can do as a dip (say at 12th level or so). The shocking grasps now are 10d6+20 (then empowered of course). So your rage, while nice is competing against +30 damage. Now don't get me wrong.. you meet this extra damage assuming that the target AC is not too hard to hit. You're doing +12.5 damage per successful hit (with the same hit chance while power attacking) so you'd need to hit 2+ times/round which seems about right.
The problem comes in the following round when you also need to compete with the 10d6 empowered shocking grasp that you're not casting. Now you can twohand for an extra +9 damage per hit.. but now you're going to need to hit all four times on average to make up for this. Sadly though when not casting you don't get that flurry attack.
This is ignoring the AC problem which doesn't get solved until level 14 for this barbarian build. And even then the Dervish is up on AC without far more gp expense than the dervish magus.
That's discounting the power of a high init score, which at high levels starts to be very important for many parties.
-James
Does any one know Walter? I was wondering if he intends to do a follow-up to his guide. Of the new archetypes the only one I like is the Kensai. Was wondering if I was missing something from the other archetypes. Pity Kensai and Hexcrafter can't be combined. Some of the new aracanas seem promising. I like lingering pain. Thoughts?
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