Paizo, what about me and other new players?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them. In carrion crown there is and investigation into the court defense of a monster. I council of thieves I think the pcs end up playing in a play. In kingmaker, although less non traditional and arguably more fun, the pcs must explore and build a kingdom. I see a lot of new things in these adventure paths, and I think it is about a lot of the older gamers who have been playing a long time and want some thing new every time.

What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them. In carrion crown there is and investigation into the court defense of a monster. I council of thieves I think the pcs end up playing in a play. In kingmaker, although less non traditional and arguably more fun, the pcs must explore and build a kingdom. I see a lot of new things in these adventure paths, and I think it is about a lot of the older gamers who have been playing a long time and want some thing new every time.

What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

Rise of the Runelords is almost entirely old school heroics. Curse of the Crimson Throne likewise is very traditional. Second Darkness has you fighting the Drow in the Underxark. There are already three higly traditional APs, they just need some work (very minor) to convert them from 3.5. Also, as a note those 3APs represent almost half of the published APs. How much more do you want? Besides which, after a while, and 16 levels is quite a long while, you do get bored of just hitting things.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The last Paizo adventure that was basically hack and slash and not much else - City of Seven Spears - has got mostly negative reviews. In contrast, those adventures that feature unique challenges tend to be held in high regard - Souls for Smuggler's Shiv, for example.

I guess that what sets Paizo adventures apart from competition is that they are more varied and feature non-combat elements that allow players to do something else than just kill loot, kill loot. If I wanted to play a brainless hackathon, I would just run WotC 4E adventures which go pretty much that way.

Liberty's Edge

Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them. In carrion crown there is and investigation into the court defense of a monster. I council of thieves I think the pcs end up playing in a play. In kingmaker, although less non traditional and arguably more fun, the pcs must explore and build a kingdom. I see a lot of new things in these adventure paths, and I think it is about a lot of the older gamers who have been playing a long time and want some thing new every time.

What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

Uh...hack and slack campaigns don't need Adventure Paths. Open the bestiary and go to town if you don't want "plot" and "story" to get in your way..


O boy....

High fantasy =/ Hack N Slash

If all you want out of your RPG is for the local king to say "Avast there be a dragon, please slay it" then yes, I wholeheartedly agree that APs are not for you.


Triga wrote:
What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy?

4 APs and most of the modules aren't enough?!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Triga wrote:
Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

Interestingly, the whole "roots that spawned all this" bit were folks who tried out some new rules with old medieval war games.

So like, it's kind of always been a bit non-standard, right? Not a lot of folks left complaining "yeah but why all the fireballs and teleports and stuff? I'm a knight and I want to just kill ***t on a roll of 5 or 6"

Incorporate what you like, skip the rest, and maybe you'll run across an occasional play (like one where the actors are maimed and killed) or something that your group will enjoy.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

On first blush, yeah, it would be nice to see another old-school type adventure, but then I think about what that entails . . .
and I realize that to create an old-school "kill-the-monsters-and-take-the-loot" adventure, all you really need to do is say the following to your players:

"So there's a rumor going around town that some woodsmen found an entrance to the old Temple of Bad Nasty Things. You remember stories from your childhood that said temple is full of wondrous treasure and heinous beasts just waiting for a group of intrepid heroes to do what they do best. The local woodsmen tend to gather at the Macguffin Pub on the East end of town."

Crack open your Bestiary to some favorite monster entries, bookmark the traps section of the Core Book, and roll up a treasure or three, and *boom*. Instant old-school dungeon romp. Why pay an author for that? Hell; pay me, Paizo! I just wrote an old-school adventure for you, right there! Discounts on gaming material are an acceptable form of compensation, too.


Triga wrote:

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Why do you need an Adventure Path?

The GM just needs to open the Bestiary at random, roll some dice for numbers, and then pit the party against whatever the Bestiary shows.

Then repeat.

"You enter the door and behind it you find (*scroll scroll roll roll*) 3 frost giants"

...

"And behind the next door, you find (*scroll scroll roll roll*) 12 orcs"

If you're slightly less classical, and have some need for fairness, instead use a random encounter table tailored to your level so your 1st-level heroes don't have to fight a demon lord.

No need to shell out 120 bucks for someone to put hours and hours of thought into well-out, non-boring, non-cliché adventures.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, there are random dungeon generators out on the web. If you just want to dungeon crawl, those serve quite well. I for once am tired of dungeons of all kinds, but then again I've been playing and GM'ing D&D and Pathfinder continuously since 1998.

Silver Crusade

Actually the "open bestiary and create a quick dungeon," idea is some thing I would like to see from Paizo in book form. Kind of like the 4th edition dungeon delve book. Complete with hooks and other things to connect i to Galorian.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Triga wrote:
Actually the "open bestiary and create a quick dungeon," idea is some thing I would like to see from Paizo in book form. Kind of like the 4th edition dungeon delve book. Complete with hooks and other things to connect i to Galorian.

I believe that a vast majority of folks here hooked up with Paizo because they weren't happy with "delve" format of WotC adventures. Therefore, not much chance for that... But perhaps some 3PP might get around to something in this vein.


You don't need a book for that, the GMG has random tables for monsters based on location, and the excellent 3e Forgotten Realms DM screen has random tables for monsters of dungeon levels meant for characters from 1st-20th level. If you don't mind a little converting or replacing monsters from those tables you can use a random dungeon map generator combined with a roll of random monsters and have a fully random hack and slash completely non-ecology based dungeon in minutes.

For interesting Golarion based "dungeons" Lost Cities of Golarion hasa few that could each hold a campaign, and I believe a Dungeons of Golarion book is coming out soon. Also, I don't think hack and slash, kick in the door play is any less worthy of a game than the APs from Paizo, however I am glad that for the most part their APs stay far away from concentrating on this play style and offer more varied adventure opportunities.


this is a very weird discussion.


idilippy wrote:

You don't need a book for that, the GMG has random tables for monsters based on location, and the excellent 3e Forgotten Realms DM screen has random tables for monsters of dungeon levels meant for characters from 1st-20th level. If you don't mind a little converting or replacing monsters from those tables you can use a random dungeon map generator combined with a roll of random monsters and have a fully random hack and slash completely non-ecology based dungeon in minutes.

For interesting Golarion based "dungeons" Lost Cities of Golarion hasa few that could each hold a campaign, and I believe a Dungeons of Golarion book is coming out soon. Also, I don't think hack and slash, kick in the door play is any less worthy of a game than the APs from Paizo, however I am glad that for the most part their APs stay far away from concentrating on this play style and offer more varied adventure opportunities.

Won't Dungeons of Golarion do that, at least a bit?

http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfin derChronicles/v5748btpy8g78


Obvious_Ninja wrote:
idilippy wrote:

You don't need a book for that, the GMG has random tables for monsters based on location, and the excellent 3e Forgotten Realms DM screen has random tables for monsters of dungeon levels meant for characters from 1st-20th level. If you don't mind a little converting or replacing monsters from those tables you can use a random dungeon map generator combined with a roll of random monsters and have a fully random hack and slash completely non-ecology based dungeon in minutes.

For interesting Golarion based "dungeons" Lost Cities of Golarion hasa few that could each hold a campaign, and I believe a Dungeons of Golarion book is coming out soon. Also, I don't think hack and slash, kick in the door play is any less worthy of a game than the APs from Paizo, however I am glad that for the most part their APs stay far away from concentrating on this play style and offer more varied adventure opportunities.

Won't Dungeons of Golarion do that, at least a bit?

http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfin derChronicles/v5748btpy8g78

Yeah, I mentioned Dungeons of Golarion. It's my impression that the book will just detail out six locations though, not be a guide to making your own.


Maybe what you want is the Inner Sea Campaign Guide-- which I guess is like the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide- a list of potential story hooks and locations spread throughout Golarion. Also useful for you may be the wiki--http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Pathfinder_Wiki

Castle Maure in Dungeon 112 may also be interesting for you. Is that what you are interested in?

Liberty's Edge

Triga wrote:
Actually the "open bestiary and create a quick dungeon," idea is some thing I would like to see from Paizo in book form. Kind of like the 4th edition dungeon delve book. Complete with hooks and other things to connect i to Galorian.

Here, I'll write that book for you.

Open the bestiary.

Draw rooms on your game table.

Done!

Profit!

Dark Archive

Triga wrote:


What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

If thats what floats your boat, go get some 3.5 Goodman games modules. They'd fit better with what your looking for rather then the adventure paths.


Is Dungeon a Day still going?

Liberty's Edge

Joana wrote:
Is Dungeon a Day still going?

Most recent update was June 6th. I've not really been over there since Monte isn't as hands on anymore.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call "non traditional material" in them.

(snip, snip, snippety...)
What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy?...

I'm disappointed at the tone of some of this thread's responses. While many of the people playing Pathfinder want something more varied than the straightforward heroism you crave, there's also a reason that vanilla is the most popular ice cream flavor in the world. Many of us may be jaded, world-weary veterans of the gaming table, (Wulf pauses to put on his fedora and knock back a shot of rotgut whiskey...) but others want to enjoy being heroes with a capital "H" and no moral quandaries or roleplaying oddities.

The adventure paths often diverge from straight-up exploration because most groups want more variety than such a game would offer. To suit your group's taste, your best bet might be to substitute another adventure for part of the adventure path. Instead of an investigation (or joining an opera), they find clues leading to a monster-filled labyrinth.

You may also want to look at Pathfinder adventures available from other publishers. Frog God Games offers challenging adventures that should be right up your alley. I highly recommend Greg Vaughn's Slumbering Tsar Saga.

0one games has a number of products that could work for you, ranging from premade adventures to very cool maps. I'd recommend their Dungeon Under the Mountain maps as a good starting place for an extensive dungeon crawl.


Sir_Wulf wrote:
I'm disappointed at the tone of some of this thread's responses. While many of the people playing Pathfinder want something more varied than the straightforward heroism you crave, there's also a reason that vanilla is the most popular ice cream flavor in the world. Many of us may be jaded, world-weary veterans of the gaming table, ..etc etc

Thanks for saying it better then i could!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have loved all of Paizo's APs so far (except maybe for Second Darkness, but even those first two adventures were the sauce). The non-traditional plots are something that really sells me on the APs. That said I'm not one to dismiss the OPs concerns completely.

Firstly some options for the OP:

- Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne are both really very good, highly traditional APs where PCs have to enter dungeons, fight monsters and save the region. So if that's what you're looking for go pick them up.

Secondly:

A return to a more traditional adventuring region of Golarion (like Varisia) might be a good idea. If you look at comic books (such as DC) they often have hard and soft resets of continuity in order to attract new readers. I think an AP that returned to a more traditional model/region (with Paizo's signature plot intrigues) would be a useful tool for new GMs/Players looking for a campaign to run "out of the box" so to speak.

Whenever a friend feels the urge to begin GMing their first campaign they always ask me which AP would be good to start with. My player pool is large but not infinite so if one of them goes with Rise of the Runelords then the other new GMs can't try that out as their first AP.

Dungeon Delving, Dragon Slaying, Princess Rescuing adventures with an iconic Paizo spin I can get behind that.

...

But only after I get my pirates YARRRRR!


Triga wrote:


What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

I have to admit that the ratio of "gimmicky" to "regular D&D" adventure paths is getting a little high for my tastes, but it's hard to please everyone.


Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them. In carrion crown there is and investigation into the court defense of a monster. I council of thieves I think the pcs end up playing in a play. In kingmaker, although less non traditional and arguably more fun, the pcs must explore and build a kingdom. I see a lot of new things in these adventure paths, and I think it is about a lot of the older gamers who have been playing a long time and want some thing new every time.

What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

Respectfully, then at best what you want is the Pathfinder module line, not the Adventure Path line, and at worst - you need to look at another publisher. Hack-n-slash, kill-things-and-take-their-stuff, classic "old school" adventure design is not something that is going to hold together for 6 publications. As a 1-off? Sure. But adventure design has evolved considerably over the years and what you're describing sounds a lot more like a Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics than a Pathfinder module or AP.


For those who want more "traditional" APs, please don't misunderstand my earlier post. Rise of the Runelords is one of my all-time favorite APs. I'm all for traditional swords-n-sorcery and a return to that style of AP. However, the way the original post was laid out, even that AP would have been too "plot heavy".

My position is that for an Adventure PATH six installments in length, you have to have plot. Furthermore, adventure design has developed to the point that you're likely going to have the product be considered sub-par if it has little or no plot. Finally, Paizo's APs are the main money-maker of their game lines, so clearly their model is working.

If you want a plot-free adventure, as I understand it, many of the 4e adventures have come very close to hitting this description. The reviews and general web-posted-views of them have been less than kind.


BPorter wrote:

If you want a plot-free adventure, as I understand it, many of the 4e adventures have come very close to hitting this description. The reviews and general web-posted-views of them have been less than kind.

well...I don't know if that's a design issue as much as it is WoTC's complete disregard for customer feedback. look at Paizo - the contributors and editors frequently comment on their work and actively seek feedback from the forums. WoTC? not so much. they probably COULD come up with a plot driven adventure in 4e...but they just don't seem to feel the need.

sorry for the slight digression. I'll go sit in my corner now.


oh - one more slight off topic observation: I have a LOT of respect for Paizo. having the designers and editorial staff (as well as contributors) post on the forums and actually talk to us scum of the earth players takes balls of steel. kudos on raising the bar and setting the pace for the rest of the industry.

I never got the impression the WoTC staff talked WITH us. I got the feeling the talked AT us. if that makes any sort of sense.


Mr. Quick wrote:

oh - one more slight off topic observation: I have a LOT of respect for Paizo. having the designers and editorial staff (as well as contributors) post on the forums and actually talk to us scum of the earth players takes balls of steel. kudos on raising the bar and setting the pace for the rest of the industry.

I never got the impression the WoTC staff talked WITH us. I got the feeling the talked AT us. if that makes any sort of sense.

It makes all the sense in the world. Sadly.


Sir_Wulf wrote:
I'm disappointed at the tone of some of this thread's responses.

To be fair, the tone of the responses was due to the tone of the OP. He basically said (and I'm paraphrasing) "I don't like all this plot nonsense, I just want to kill stuff and loot it".

Had he said "I'm yearning for a more traditional AP where there is a clear bad guy and you go after him through classic dungeon delves and derring do" he probably would have gotten a better response.

To be honest the majority of what he's after can be done within the existing APs just by modifying DM storytelling. Carrion Crown isn't a good fit - but that is an intentional design choice.

Serpent Skull could be told in a more overt fashion (ie. identify the end bad guy up front and probably skip the first module), and would probably serve fine as a rock up n kill em all adventure.

Kingmaker could have the fun sandboxy elements cast aside and ignore the kingdom building and just be a string of connected go find and kill the bad guy stories.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Hullo All,

Reading the OP, I understand what they're saying, and in some respects I agree with them completely. Whilst I find the AP concept and execution to be absolutely stunning, I do find myself occasionally pining for the likes of the old G/D/Q series. Not because of its intricate plot and well thought out NPCs (insert tongue in cheek here), but because it was just a big, old fashioned romp, where fireballs and swords were the main call of the day. No need to think about moral quandaries, just point your pcs at the dungeon entrance and start rolling dice.
However, they weren't completely random ecologies, either. There was a story built into them; one that a random generator just can't manage. And the story was epic in scale - start off beating up the hill giants that were attacking your local pub, end up facing off the Queen of the Demonweb Pits.
Could I play that style of gaming all the time - No.
Would it make it easier for new players, who are still working out which direction to throw their dice - quite possibly.
Is a dedicated AP for this sort of game needed - I don't think so.

Game Mastery D0, D1 & D1.5 make a nice little miny AP that is straight forward, easy to use with Pathfinder and gives both story and essentially old style dungeon bash, spread over more than one adventure.

And failing that, grab a pencil and paper and the Bestiary and create your own epic.

Of course, as with anything I type, other's experiences may differ.

Reggie.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

For those looking for a more old school feel like Reggie is talking about. i would strongly recommend checking out Slumbering Tsar by Frog God Games. It is a mega 14 part 500 or so page(not sure how many pages it is not all out yet but a lot) mega dungeon. Most of the parts take place in a old city or under it. Plus it is written by Greg Vaughn who has written I think at least one adventure for every AP to date. So you will be getting Paizo level quality(same writer) but it is very old school.

Silver Crusade

Not wanting to put words in the mouth of our Dinosaur overlord but as I recall somewhere on this board James Jacobs intimated that they were looking to do a "traditional" AP but the designers didn't feel any enthusiasm for the project.

The Exchange

Mark Sweetman wrote:
Sir_Wulf wrote:
I'm disappointed at the tone of some of this thread's responses.
To be fair, the tone of the responses was due to the tone of the OP. He basically said (and I'm paraphrasing) "I don't like all this plot nonsense, I just want to kill stuff and loot it".

I didn't note any disrespect in the OP's tone, more humour. That said, most of the people who were offhand probably would have been if he had phrased it differently, due to who they are.

The Exchange

hogarth wrote:
Triga wrote:


What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.
I have to admit that the ratio of "gimmicky" to "regular D&D" adventure paths is getting a little high for my tastes, but it's hard to please everyone.

Me too. I'm particularly getting bored with sandbox-y stuff. Ironically, that might be more up the OP's street, given that they are fairly plot-lite - especially Kingmaker. That said, I'm enjoying Carrion Crown at the moment (mostly).


Gorbacz wrote:
Triga wrote:
Actually the "open bestiary and create a quick dungeon," idea is some thing I would like to see from Paizo in book form. Kind of like the 4th edition dungeon delve book. Complete with hooks and other things to connect i to Galorian.
I believe that a vast majority of folks here hooked up with Paizo because they weren't happy with "delve" format of WotC adventures. Therefore, not much chance for that... But perhaps some 3PP might get around to something in this vein.

3PPs can't use the setting.


Mark Sweetman wrote:
Sir_Wulf wrote:
I'm disappointed at the tone of some of this thread's responses.
To be fair, the tone of the responses was due to the tone of the OP. He basically said (and I'm paraphrasing) "I don't like all this plot nonsense, I just want to kill stuff and loot it".

This. The tone of the original post set the tone for the whole discussion, and it wasn't too diplomatic.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I have to admit that the ratio of "gimmicky" to "regular D&D" adventure paths is getting a little high for my tastes, but it's hard to please everyone.
Me too. I'm particularly getting bored with sandbox-y stuff. Ironically, that might be more up the OP's street, given that they are fairly plot-lite - especially Kingmaker. That said, I'm enjoying Carrion Crown at the moment (mostly).

Maybe I'm reading my own issues into the original post, but I don't think he's against plot per se. Rather, he's not interested in digressions that don't feel particularly "D&Dish", like operating a casino or acting in a play or defending someone in a court case or writing zoning bylaws.


Like stated a few posts above; Maybe a string of adventure modules is more what the OP wants/needs. Adventure modules have always been more direct in their plot developement.

For my taste, there are a few things that suit me less (like the whole acting in a play bit), but overall I find the constant changes in things to do and scenery in the adventure paths very interesting. Very good stuff!!

Ultradan


Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them...

I understand your sentiment and understand your desire for "traditional material". Believe me, our group is as "traditional D&D" as you can get. We have been through 3 Paizo APs so far (Savage Tide(ST), Rise of the Runelords (RotRL), and now we are at the every end of Curse of the Crimson Throne (CotCT). These 3 APs I believe will work nicely for you. I know ST is probably hard to get but the other 2 are readily available just about anywhere. I don't think your "high fantasy preference" will have any problems with these APs.

Having said that, from what I have read of the Paizo stuff over the years, you need not fear. Just about every AP will work for you on some level. Yes some may focus in other areas that you may feel are not to your groups aesthetic but (as far as I have seen to date) Paizo does these non-traditional things in a very traditional way. Your dragon hunting-fighters in the front-mages in the back-grumbling dwarf with a hammer-and so on-group will not be bored or disappointed with the vast majority of the stuff in the APs. In fact I think you will find them to be the opposite; quite invigorating.

Maybe something like Council of Thieves is outside of your groups comfort zone (it is outside of my groups) that doesn't mean something like Kingmaker is as well.

I suggest you take the plunge and try out an AP if you haven't already. I'm pretty sure you won't look back, and in fact, I think you'll discover that the APs are more what you and your group expect in an adventure then the "delve format" adventures published with 4E and the end of 3E. That has been my experience anyway and I can guarantee my group is a lot more cranky and creaky about this stuff then yours. ;)

As far as the future goes, I guess we'll see. I don't know much about Carrion Crown and even less about Jade Regent. It seems like the newly announced "Skull and Bones" has plenty of "high fantasy" potential though.

Good luck.

Dark Archive Contributor

If I'm not mistaken, it should be fairly easy to "skip" the non-traditional aspects of each AP.

For instance:

The play is a tiny part of Council of Thieves, and has a section on how to skip it.

The dinner party is easy to gloss over in Legacy of Fire.

Kingmaker can skip the tournament easily.

The Trial in Carrion Crown is a bit tougher, but you could increase the skill of the advocate and change the tasks to simple fetch missions.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Triga wrote:

All your adventure paths seem to contain what I will call non traditional material in them. In carrion crown there is and investigation into the court defense of a monster. I council of thieves I think the pcs end up playing in a play. In kingmaker, although less non traditional and arguably more fun, the pcs must explore and build a kingdom. I see a lot of new things in these adventure paths, and I think it is about a lot of the older gamers who have been playing a long time and want some thing new every time.

What about me and other new players. We may not have the patience. we want hack and slash, dungeons to crawl and dragon to kill. Is there even any adventure paths yet with big end game dragons to defeat? I am all for innovation and keeping things fresh, but not every one wants all this stuff.

What about those of us who came here for straight high fantasy? I do not want to investigate thing, I am not a detective, I am a sword wielding hero, I want to kill monsters. I do not want to play games with kings, I slay gods, not pander to rich men. I do not want to play games with actors in a play. I am a hero, I go out into the untamed wilderness of the world and kill giant bad things so that these actors can live with out fear to put on there plays.

Pathfinder when it was first published was about "keeping 3rd edition alive," the first poster for Pathfinder even states this, it says, "3.5 thrives," so if your roots are that important what about the high fantasy roots that spawned the entire rpg gaming community of every medium?

I hear what you are saying.

You want old school dungeon adventuring. And that is fine. I agree with you in a way, Pathfinder doesn't focus on that. And though some suggest just opening the Bestiary, that fails to understand the joy of a monster bash. Some of the best modules of all time are just exploration and fighting--the Giant series from 1st edition, the Drow series from 1st edition. So there is a lot more to old school design than just opening the Bestiary.

When 3E came out and I started Necromancer Games, our motto was "third edition rules, first edition feel." Sounds like that is what you are looking for.

Try some of our old adventures, 3E is easy to convert to Pathfinder.

If I was you, I would check out:

Tomb of Abysthor
Rappan Athuk Reloaded
The Vault of Larin Karr

Just for starters. Those are lighter on story and more about explore and fight. But still awesome in the fine 1st edition tradition brought to 3E and easily updated to Pathfinder.

Enjoy!

Clark


My friends and I are fairly new to RPGs in general, we started a little over a year ago with 4E but quickly switched to Pathfinder. We played the "Keep on the Shadow Fell" adventure and we all had a blast, it was pretty simple but there were still some interesting NPCs and some very interesting puzzles (like a whirlpool room in which players must find out how to deactivate the whirlpool before they all die).

I feel like that was the perfect adventure for someone that is just getting into RPG, it had a great epic feel, tons of dungeon crawl, and hints of role playing every now and then (honestly when you are just picking up D&D you care more about battles than RP).

While I throughly enjoy the APs, I wish each edition was shorter and with more descriptions. I can't really generalize since I've only played one of them (and we are still in the second part).

My group and I took nearly 4 months to finish (playing once or twice per week for 4-6 hours per session) Souls for Smuggler Shiv, but we all had a great time. That adventure was a lot of fun to GM and play, but towards the middle of adventure everything just slowed down to a crawl.

After that we started Racing to the Ruins, but we are almost giving up on it. It is just too linear and with way too many random encounters. The adventure is a lot of fun while you are in the city and there are all of these exciting options, but the trip (which is a major part of the adventure) and the countless side quests are just plain boring with little sense of reward or importance. We just now reached the middle of the adventure after 6 months of playing (on and off since we are not really enjoying it as much as we did the first one).

My friend and I are taking turns to GM (I GM'ed the first part, and he is doing the second part) since we do not have much experience GMing we are doing our very best to follow the APs rules and recommendations. I already picked up a copy of the 3rd instalment of the AP and it looks promising but it still looks too long and dragging. I wish they were shorter (yet longer than a module) but at the same time more detailed instead of sand-boxy.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Rather than crossposting the whole thing, I'll just link my post on the subject of Truly Heroic APs in another thread in this section.


Yes Vault of Larin Karr..voted by my gaming group as the best advebture they had ever played in


4look4rd wrote:
I feel like that was the perfect adventure for someone that is just getting into RPG, it had a great epic feel, tons of dungeon crawl, and hints of role playing every now and then (honestly when you are just picking up D&D you care more about battles than RP).

Please consider that while this may be true for you, there are a large number of people who experience the reverse.


Another recommendation for the OP:

As others have mentioned, if you want a good source of dungeon crawl material, Dungeon a Day is great if you don't mind spending the money on it.

A really good free alternative to DaD (for the time being anyway) is Jason Bulmahn's Weekly Grind, each room of which he posts to his Facebook fan page. All you have to do is friend/like him on FB!

Shadow Lodge

Dark_Mistress wrote:
For those looking for a more old school feel like Reggie is talking about. i would strongly recommend checking out Slumbering Tsar by Frog God Games. It is a mega 14 part 500 or so page(not sure how many pages it is not all out yet but a lot) mega dungeon. Most of the parts take place in a old city or under it. Plus it is written by Greg Vaughn who has written I think at least one adventure for every AP to date. So you will be getting Paizo level quality(same writer) but it is very old school.

Just to piggyback off this, Frog God Games products in general kinda cater to what I think the OP is looking for. Clark Peterson mentioned Necromancer above, and FGG is in many ways the spiritual successor to Necromancer.

As for those who feel insulted that someone isn't as in to these non-traditional sections as you are, some might feel equally insulted that you reduce his gaming preference to "Draw some rooms on a graph paper and put some random-ass monsters in there! DONE!"


I believe you also have to contend with the page count in regards to the Adventure Paths, and what is acceptable to charge a higher price. Therefore, I don't think they will offer a lighter framework, and less backstory, and concentrate more on combat. Going along the veins of the original post, I would like to see a release of a module series, with the same intent of an AP, but take a more sparse, or miminalist approach, so the DM has an easy read, but can add in anything they desire (ala old school modules).

However, that may work against the model of the AP as the cash cow, especially it is it succesful. Most likely you will need to rely on a third party.

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