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Obviously in a homegame, the GM could allow any type of base form for the corpse companion for an undead lord cleric, but Im wondering if its limited for PFS at all?
I dont have the book in front of me, but from what I remember, it doesnt specify anything other than 'a skeleton or zombie with whos HD does not exceed your cleric level'.
To me, since it doesnt specify you being able to use something other than generic human skeleton/zombie, then you cant use anything else (such as a wolf or a horse for example).
Ruling please?
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Obviously in a homegame, the GM could allow any type of base form for the corpse companion for an undead lord cleric, but Im wondering if its limited for PFS at all?
I dont have the book in front of me, but from what I remember, it doesnt specify anything other than 'a skeleton or zombie with whos HD does not exceed your cleric level'.
To me, since it doesnt specify you being able to use something other than generic human skeleton/zombie, then you cant use anything else (such as a wolf or a horse for example).
Ruling please?
While this question should have been direced to the PRPG rules board I will offer what wisdom I have.
Humans only have no racial HD and an undead lord cleric would be unable to use this ability to its full extent if restricted to human corpses.
Thus an undead lord cleric is able to animate any corpse as a skeleton or zombie as long as the undead creature does not break the HD limit of this power.
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Does the book list what to do with stats for skeletons/zombies that arent already listed in the Bestiarys? Are there conversion rules?
Quoted from D20pfsrd:
Corpse Companion (Su): With a ritual requiring 8 hours, an undead lord can animate a single skeleton or zombie whose Hit Dice do not exceed her cleric level. This corpse companion automatically follows her commands and does not need to be controlled by her. She cannot have more than one corpse companion at a time. It does not count against the number of Hit Dice of undead controlled by other methods. She can use this ability to create a variant skeleton such as a bloody or burning skeleton, but its Hit Dice cannot exceed half her cleric level. She can dismiss her companion as a standard action, which destroys it.
Doesnt say anything about racial HD, and you can use stuff better than just generic skeleton as you get higher levels, but Im still really unsure.
As for where it goes, I chose to post it here because:
1) the Rules forums, strangely enough, is the one forum Ive been to on these boards that Paizo staff DONT frequently post in, especially in response to questions.
Every question Ive wanted dead-on answered from Paizo staff ive either had to ask here(for PFS) or on the 'Offical ask James Jacobs ANY question' thread (non PFS).
If you get any kind of answer aside from "OMG WHY R PPL SO DUM? CANT U USE DA SEARCH?" then generally itll be a ggeneral consensus of what people have found over time for what RAW is or RAI was supposed to be, backing it up from questions theyve asked quoted from other parts of the boards other than the rules forum.
2) Rulings of how to handle the general rules are often times different from what is official for PFS, and ALOT of the time the rules forums discussions come down to 'Its up to the GM' type answers, which doesnt work for this, really.
I'm pretty sure the premise of the class is that you take a standard human skeleton or zombie and then add HD to it based on the creature type entries. The table under Skeleton in the bestiary shows that the base creature listed there is 1HD. So to make it 2HD use p309 and add 3/4 BAB (+1), 1HD (+5hp), +1 Will, no skills or feats as they're mindless, and that's about it.
You'd need to check the 3/4 BAB and good/bad save progressions to work it out as you level up, but it should be straightforward. I don't think it's meant to be any more complicated than that.
One other thing to bear in mind is that it takes 8 hours to animate, and won't persist between scenarios. Your DM would have to be a heartless b'stard to tell you that you can't start with it summoned and you don't have time to do it anywhere in the mod, but theoretically he probably could... :-)
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Doesnt say anything about racial HD, and you can use stuff better than just generic skeleton as you get higher levels, but Im still really unsure.
Pages 250 and 288 of the bestiary explain how to create skeletons and zombies and how racial HD figure in to it.
As for where it goes, I chose to post it here because:
1) the Rules forums, strangely enough, is the one forum Ive been to on these boards that Paizo staff DONT frequently post in, especially in response to questions.
Every question Ive wanted dead-on answered from Paizo staff ive either had to ask here(for PFS) or on the 'Offical ask James Jacobs ANY question' thread (non PFS).
If you get any kind of answer aside from "OMG WHY R PPL SO DUM? CANT U USE DA SEARCH?" then generally itll be a ggeneral consensus of what people have found over time for what RAW is or RAI was supposed to be, backing it up from questions theyve asked quoted from other parts of the boards other than the rules forum.2) Rulings of how to handle the general rules are often times different from what is official for PFS, and ALOT of the time the rules forums discussions come down to 'Its up to the GM' type answers, which doesnt work for this, really.
Regardless of your experience with the generaldiscussion/PRPG rules board the PFS boards are not intended for general rules clarifications.
As for this particular question I can clearly see a PFS ruling being needed.
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I'm pretty sure the premise of the class is that you take a standard human skeleton or zombie and then add HD to it based on the creature type entries.
I am not privy to the design of this archetype, but I see no reason to restrict this ability to human corpses.
Advancing a human corpse is of course possible, but probably not near as effective as opgrading to ogre, tiger etc. when that becomes an option.One other thing to bear in mind is that it takes 8 hours to animate, and won't persist between scenarios. Your DM would have to be a heartless b'stard to tell you that you can't start with it summoned and you don't have time to do it anywhere in the mod, but theoretically he probably could... :-)
I would rather compare this ability with Arcane Bond (familiar) or Animal Companion.
No GM expects players to summon a new familiar for each scenario I don't see why an undead lord should be penalized in that way.
I would rather compare this ability with Arcane Bond (familiar) or Animal Companion.
No GM expects players to summon a new familiar for each scenario I don't see why an undead lord should be penalized in that way.
An animal companion, and by the looks of it a familiar, are both Extraordinary abilities, whereas the corpse companion is a Supernatural ability. Having double-checked the text in 3.02 it does refer to Spells rather than magical effects though, so the corpse should be fine.
I worry about non-human skeletons, as it'll turn into another Wild Shape exercise in the absurd. Girallons with 5 attacks, Bison with 27 strength, heck, even a Hydra is only 5HD and gets 5 attacks per round with Strength 17 and reach... Plus you're a full-on cleric to boot.
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...I worry about non-human skeletons, as it'll turn into another Wild Shape exercise in the absurd. Girallons with 5 attacks, Bison with 27 strength, heck, even a Hydra is only 5HD and gets 5 attacks per round with Strength 17 and reach... Plus you're a full-on cleric to boot.
I understand what you say and therefore think posting this on the PRPG bord in stead would be better, since that is Jasons domain.
However, girallon and hydra zombies are 9HD monstres and I cannot imagine challenges designed for 9th lvl characters would be easily beaten by them.
A Hydra skeleton is 5HD as far as I can see, and would be available at 5th level.
I know this is a generic rules question, but PFS is almost certain to impose some campaign specific rulings on it, so it makes sense to discuss it here too. If your ape companion can't wield weapons but your Girallon skeleton can...
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I am also curious as to the ruling of this. I have plans to create an Undead Lord myself.
Not to completely threadjack, but I also understand the frustrations of posting in the rules forum and why you decided to post here. I definitely have asked my questions over there (I was sure I'd at least get some response on my glove of storing, portable altar, consecrate question - especially considering I thought it was pretty unique, said it was important for PFS purposes, had 2 pages of posts, and had 14 flags for FAQ), but they have all gone unanswered. I was a bit miffed to see other folks post rules questions in the PFS forum that probably should have gone to the rules forum and get rulings pretty quickly.
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Regardless of your experience with the generaldiscussion/PRPG rules board the PFS boards are not intended for general rules clarifications.
Thanks for the specific pages. Very useful info.
Also, just to clarify, Im not looking for a general ruling at all, just for PFS. Dont really care how each individual home game GM rules it for their players, lol.
Really, Im just hoping to avoid a player showing up for a session with their new skeltal dragon or equally 'wth'-ish and getting shot down by the GM 6 months after he starts the character, cause its suddenly not legal.
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Really, Im just hoping to avoid a player showing up for a session with their new skeltal dragon or equally 'wth'-ish and getting shot down by the GM 6 months after he starts the character, cause its suddenly not legal.
Any Corpse Companion created 'off screen' is going to be limited to basic humanoid types of the kind found in/around Absalom etc. Any Corpse Companion created 'on screen' from the corpse of the dragon you just killed is going to be noted on your Chronicle.
Something like that? :)
A Hydra skeleton is 5HD as far as I can see, and would be available at 5th level.
Why not make it an advanced giant half-dragon hydra, while you're at it? ;-)
I agree, some guidelines would be handy, although I'm not crazy about the idea of keeping track of possible corpses on your chronicle sheets. I'd rather stick to a particular list, like anything on the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally lists, for instance.
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Yea, Mark, somethin like that. Though Im hoping for something from Erik/Mark/Hyrum.
Me too, but until late summer they probably will not have the time for it.
For the moment you should be safe if you do as Mark and I suggest.As with any character concept, you can never be 100% sure some change down the line does not affect its efficiency - that's why I always tell players it is important to make a character they think will be fun regardless of efficiency.