How important is Combat Casting for the low level Magus?


Advice

Sovereign Court

Trying to post this again, last one got eaten by the 0 post monster.

Seems like defensive casting is awfully difficult for the low level magus, necessitating combat casting. On the other hand, you get so few spells that perhaps it's better to deal with the situation with tactical movement and positioning to avoid the AoO, freeing up that valuable feat slot (like say for weapon finesse for the dex magus I'm creating now).

Thoughts?


I have found that I can fairly regularly cast without provoking, and thus do not need to cast defensively. Remember that you can 5ft step durring other actions, and this include between the spell and attack. Cover prevents AoO. And at low levels, the only spells you will really be spamming are lvl 0, and you don't always care if they go off.


EDIT: my post below is not factual within the rules, please disregard it. I have left it for the sake of thread completeness.

Caineach wrote:
Remember that you can 5ft step durring other actions, and this include between the spell and attack.
this is not correct wrote:


This is not true. Spell combat functions as Two-Weapon Fighting, with the spell taking the off-hand slot that would normally hold a light weapon. TWF is a full-attack action, and while one can 5ft step before or after a full-attack action, one cannot interrupt iterative attacks with their 5ft step.

So, you can not cast a spell, 5ft step, and then attack with your sword. Sorry.


Kilbourne wrote:
This is not true. Spell combat functions as Two-Weapon Fighting, with the spell taking the off-hand slot that would normally hold a light weapon. TWF is a full-attack action, and while one can 5ft step before or after a full-attack action, one cannot interrupt iterative attacks with their 5ft step.

Sorry, but the rules clearly state that you can take a 5-foot step during a full-attack action:

"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."

and

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

I can't see why this wouldn't apply to spell-combat too.


Kilbourne wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Remember that you can 5ft step durring other actions, and this include between the spell and attack.

This is not true. Spell combat functions as Two-Weapon Fighting, with the spell taking the off-hand slot that would normally hold a light weapon. TWF is a full-attack action, and while one can 5ft step before or after a full-attack action, one cannot interrupt iterative attacks with their 5ft step.

So, you can not cast a spell, 5ft step, and then attack with your sword. Sorry.

EDIT : Silly Ninjas, but Corlindale is right, RAW clearly says you can 5ft step during a full attack.

Sovereign Court

Kilbourne wrote:


This is not true. Spell combat functions as Two-Weapon Fighting, with the spell taking the off-hand slot that would normally hold a light weapon. TWF is a full-attack action, and while one can 5ft step before or after a full-attack action, one cannot interrupt iterative attacks with their 5ft step.

So, you can not cast a spell, 5ft step, and then attack with your sword. Sorry.

Actually it's specifically called out in the CRB as legal to take a 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack on page 187, first paragraph, 2nd column. And on page 181, among others, that it can be taken before, during or after actions.

Doh, double ninjaed!


I am incorrect, and have edited my previous post. Also learned something new today!


Kilbourne wrote:
I am incorrect, and have edited my previous post. Also learned something new today!

Thats why I pointed it out :)

Its one of those little known rules that is amasingly powerful, especially for the Magus. Cleave fighters also bennefit from it some, since they do not need to be adjacent to both opponents when they start the cleave.


Caineach wrote:
Kilbourne wrote:
I am incorrect, and have edited my previous post. Also learned something new today!

Thats why I pointed it out :)

Its one of those little known rules that is amasingly powerful, especially for the Magus. Cleave fighters also bennefit from it some, since they do not need to be adjacent to both opponents when they start the cleave.

I don't think it works with cleave since cleave isn't a full attack but a standart action.


leo1925 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Kilbourne wrote:
I am incorrect, and have edited my previous post. Also learned something new today!

Thats why I pointed it out :)

Its one of those little known rules that is amasingly powerful, especially for the Magus. Cleave fighters also bennefit from it some, since they do not need to be adjacent to both opponents when they start the cleave.
I don't think it works with cleave since cleave isn't a full attack but a standart action.

You can, it applies to any action not just full round actions.

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

You just can not move during the round other than a 5-foot step. So it won't work with Charge as you moved but does work with Cleave. Only thing is I usually use cleave when I move into attack if I can.


Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Thoughts?

My current (16 Dex, 16 Int) Magus has, so far, not taken Combat Casting, and I think I'll be able to avoid it, since my Caster Level will advance faster than my spell levels do (vice a wizard, who is much closer to parity).

I did, however, take the Focused Mind trait for the early bump to concentration checks.

I have, on occasion, dumped my attack bonus to gain a +3 bonus on my concentration check, when I really, really, really needed a spell to go off this round and I couldn't (or didn't want to) 5' step away for some breathing room.

There was one time where I failed 4 or 5 defensive casting checks in a row, but the dice gods come for us all, on occasion.

Elsewise, careful movement and a good AC (chain shirt, high Dex, shield spell) has obviated most of the AoOs I'd've suffered.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, I'm going to hold off on Combat Casting, see how it goes. I keep waffling about Focused Mind. I'd been considering Magical Lineage(shocking grasp) instead. The game won't be starting for another few weeks, so I have time to agonize over the choice. ;)


Talon Stormwarden wrote:


Seems like defensive casting is awfully difficult for the low level magus, necessitating combat casting. On the other hand, you get so few spells that perhaps it's better to deal with the situation with tactical movement and positioning to avoid the AoO, freeing up that valuable feat slot (like say for weapon finesse for the dex magus I'm creating now).

Thoughts?

I think you're better off casting out of melee. Use wands when you can as they won't provoke.

Once you hit 2nd level you can use a wand of shocking grasp to up your damage and chance to hit via spellstrike.

If you really like it then pick it up as your magus arcana at 3rd.

-James


Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to hold off on Combat Casting, see how it goes. I keep waffling about Focused Mind. I'd been considering Magical Lineage(shocking grasp) instead. The game won't be starting for another few weeks, so I have time to agonize over the choice. ;)

Magic Lineage Shocking grasp will work especially well when you can prepare it with Intensified Spell metamagic feat and it remains a Level 1 Spell and you can use 1 point from your Arcane Pool to for Spell Recall it.


Pearl of Power level 1 is cheap too! Save your points to add Int to hit.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I played a couple of magi. I never really worried much about casting defensively. I play like a skirmisher. I usually don't cast shocking grasp until I'm sure I can kill a guy in one hit. Spells like vanish don't need to be cast in melee. So to me, Combat Casting seems like a wasted feat.


Agreed, you so few spells its not worth it. By the time you can afford pearls etc you'll be making those checks automatically

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I took combat casting as a Magus and consider it a feat well spent. All of the suggestions given above on 5 foot steps are great on one-round combats. When you're working with a group, providing flanks for other meleers than you're going to have tactical necessities to remain in place.

Would I consider it absolutely mandatory? No, few things are. But I don't regret taking it.


It's a 20% increased chance to not lose your spells. You won't get over the need for it until at least level 8ish. Its importance is compounded by the fact that at low levels you have fewer resources and losing one spell represents a much bigger portion of your assets. Additionally, it will continue to be useful in casting your highest level spells all the way through your characters life cycle (even if you wont need the whole bonus, you will typically need 1-3 points of it).

It's very much a depreciating asset, but its initial value is ungodly high.


These are the calculations I made for an elf Magus with the +2 racial concentration bonus and no feat taken. If the number is negative, that's how much you're short of not needing to roll, positive numbers are how much you're over. The yellow highlights are to show which points would have a 100% success rate if you had combat casting. You can see that you never really get over your need for some concentration help unless you take more measures on your own via int pumping, elf racials or the combat casting feat. Also remember that losing a first level spell at first level and losing a fifth level spell at level fourteen are (by my calculations) equally infuriating.


Gloves of Elvenkind


Hmmm. I'd say it strongly depend of your numbers: my elf with racial substitution trait and 20 int cast at +15 at 7th. I don't really need anymore combat casting. Although in the first levels I feel this lack. The magus tend to be a little feat starved, so if you don't have te numbers to avoid it and can afford a feat, take it. It anyway worth 2 levels of spell. .. If I'd took it I would be at +19 now, which means that I almost auto success every defensive casting.

Shadow Lodge

Its a great feat if you have a slot for it. If you don't, it isn't something incredible. I'd rate it about as valuable as Arcane Strike for a magus personally.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blackstorm wrote:
The magus tend to be a little feat starved,

What is this mentality that every class that doesn't have the fighter's bonus feat every other level is "feat starved"? The magus has the same number of feats as any other character at base. along with some bonus feats. It is hardly "feat-starved" by any reasonable measure.


You need weapon finesse ASAP typically if you're playing a dex build (often the case for elves) and dervish dance is insanely good, so you'd be getting combat casting at 5th, which is almost when its usefulness dies off. I think you're jumping on a justified use of "feat starved" in this instance. It's not that the Magus is feat starved the whole way through, but certainly the first four levels anyway.

Shadow Lodge

The only magus that is really feat-starved IMO is the dervish dancing magus, who has only really 1 feat and that is only if he is a human. The strength-based magus (which is incredibly effective IMHO), has plenty of open feats at levels 1-4. Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and Extra Arcane Pool are my personal favorites for strength-based magi. Of course, Dervish Magi (not even all dex magi, just the ones with scimitars) are rather feat starved, just like maneuver magi.


LazarX wrote:
Blackstorm wrote:
The magus tend to be a little feat starved,
What is this mentality that every class that doesn't have the fighter's bonus feat every other level is "feat starved"? The magus has the same number of feats as any other character at base. along with some bonus feats. It is hardly "feat-starved" by any reasonable measure.

Hmmm. I find myself in little trouble when I had to select the feats for my magus. At least, I find that. I'm playing an hexcrafter, though, so maybe I feel this because, between hexes and arcanas, I had to select extra arcana a few times, so I feel it doesn't have all the feats I'd like to have. Anyway, the "feat starving" don't depend from the raw number of feats, at least for me: it depends from what you do, too. While a wiz has to focus on his spells, and a fighter on his weapon mastery, a magus need to keep an eye on both. And a hexcrafter need to keep an eye to hexes too. It could become a bit feat starved. I didn't really had space for combat casting in the early levels.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / How important is Combat Casting for the low level Magus? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice