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(After appearing to disparage the katana in previous posts, I will now show you why it nevertheless kicks major booty and arguably outclasses virtually all western swords in terms of real world combat effectiveness.)
But, a nodachi is still a greatsword... right?
Japanese swords are named/ranked by blade length as expressed in the measurement unit shaku, which, before modern revisions, was approximately 14". However, some swords were named depending upon how the were used, or the way in which they were normally worn, irrespectively of whether or not they were nearly or almost identical to a different sword with a different name. Also, the prefixes ko (short) and ō- (long) were often applies to swords, and a sword so designated might actually be of a size placing it within the normal range of a different-named sword.
As you might expect, there are a lot of names for various Japanese swords; I've listed a bunch below, along with what I think are appropriate equivalents.
Daito - 2 or more shaku
..."Daito" is simply Japanese for "longsword"; and any sword of 2 or more shaku is a daito. (Note that what was considered "long" by the standards of short-statured medieval Japanese would not have been by the standards of taller medieval Europeans, and game-use should take that into account.)
Tanto - under 1 shaku
...your basic dagger. (Tanto were not designed to be thrown.)
Wakizashi - 1.25 to 1.75 shaku,
...the "short" blade carried by samurai when paired with the "long" katana or uchigatana; this was a utilitarian back-up weapon (and also ceremonial, as when used to decapitate enemies, or if a samurai was to commit ritual suicide by disembowelment). Although lengths were regulated, wakizashi varied greatly in size depending upon their ratio to the larger sword, and also due to the seedier element wishing to purchase "legal" "wakizashi" which were a hair's-breadth shorter than standard katana which they were forbidden to own.
Kodachi - 1.75 to just under 2 shaku
...this was the longest sword-like weapon legally permitted of non-samurai.
Ninjatō - 2 shaku
...the so-called "straight" version of the katana allegedly employed by ninjas in movies, this is no historical evidence that this sword ever actually existed! (No game equivalent provided, because this weapon is a figment of your gaijin imagination.)
Katana - 2 shaku
...this became the ultimate samurai weapon as the uchigatana was further refined and downgraded in length to permit lightning-fast moves. As the pinnacle of Japanese sword-crafting technology, a well-built katana could be melded of up to five pieces of steel in three grades of hardness; the best of them were extraordinarily sharp, and had to be handled very carefully by their owners. While nominally 2 shaku in length, each katana was ideally crafted to the proportions of the samurai who wielded it, and lengths varied between large wakizashi and small uchigatana. Regardless of its size, it was a katana if it was the larger of a samurai's pair of swords, and a wakizashi if it was the smaller.
...all Japanese swords of 2 shaku length and greater had a hilt permitting the use of two hands, and were normally wielded this way.
...while samurai ubiquitously carried a "long" and "short", the two-weapon fighting style (Niten Ichi-ryū, invented by Miyamoto Musashi, and almost forgotten with his death) was a specialized and virtually unknown art-form; most samurai would have eschewed the technique even if they knew it, since their combat style emphasized explosive speed and power coupled with a light, two-handed weapon.
Uchigatana - 2.25 to 2.5 shaku
...this shorter version of the tachi, and first true katana-style architecture sword, was developed in response to the need to more quickly draw a weapon. This sword became synonymous with the samurai class, and was worn "long+short" style with a shorter weapon. It was carried blade-side-up in the obi (sash), which permitted drawing and then overhead chopping as a smooth, continuous motion.
Tachi - 2.75 shaku
...this more curved and longer prototype version of the early katana was the limit of what could be carried at the belt. All swords tachi-length and longer rapidly fell out of favor after the refinement of the uchigatana.
Nodachi - 3.5 shaku
...difficult to forge and unwieldy, only very strong persons could make effective use of these large swords (most fighters using two-handed weapons preferred polearms). Normally used from horseback. When stowed, they were worn on the back, carried loosely on the shoulder, or by an attendant.
...Toshiro Mifune's character had one of these in the legendary epic film The Seven Samurai; he is shown chopping wood with it in an early scene.
Ōdachi - 5 shaku
...most of these were ceremonial weapons, although rarely they were used from horseback. The largest of them (six feet in length) qualified as reach weapons as they were impractical in close (i.e., 5' adjacent) combat; they were also extremely difficult to wield since, not being polearms, all of the weapon's heft had to be managed from one end, nor could one "shorten grip" to deal with in-close adversaries. In combat, the weapon was normally carried by an attendant, who also helped drawn the sword from its sheath (since its blade-length exceeded the armspan of the average person).
...in game terms, an Ōdachi is a large-sized weapon impractical for normal-sized persons to use.
A number of edicts proscribing length saw most Tachi and longer have their blades shortened (to become different swords) after the 16th century. Originals are consequently vanishingly rare today.
Game stats (IMNSHO):
Tanto .............. as dagger, but not designed to be thrown
Wakizashi* ..... as kukri (although sharp on outer curve), P or S; Special: Fast
Kodachi ........... as shortsword, but P or S
Katana* ......... as scimitar, but P or S; Special: Defensive, Fast, Finesse
Uchigatana* ... as longsword, but 18-20x2 crit; Special: Fast
Tachi ............... same as bastardsword
Nodachi .......... same as greatsword
Ōdachi ............ same as large bastardsword
Ownership of katana and longer sword-type weapons is restricted to samurai (if in a Japanese-themed campaign); and uchigatana and larger may be prohibited by edict depending upon era.
* Wakizashi, katana and uchigatana must be masterwork quality to possess an 18-20x2 crit range, else 19-20/x2.
Defensive: If one has Weapon Focus in this weapon, uses it in two hands, and is not charging, Power Attacking, raging or deprived dexterity bonus, he gains the Shield of Swings feat for the weapon regardless of prerequisites. If he also has Shield of Swings, he applies the weapon's enhancement bonus to AC (straight, numerical bonuses only).
Fast: If one has Weapon Focus in this weapon, he gains Quickdraw in the weapon.
Finesse: If one has Weapon Focus in this weapon, he gains Weapon Finesse in the weapon.
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and by game mechanic purposes most of those are better than martial weapons
So they should be exotic weapons.
But they weren't exotic -- every samurai had them (so, far from exotic, they were ubiquitous), and so would everyone else if they hadn't been outlawed to non-samurai. Swords were more common in Japan than they were in Europe (where a knight was more likely to fight with an axe, mace or flail than a sword, which wasn't effective against metal-armored opponents). Exotic weapons are normally unusual weapons with a weird utility most people don't know about and couldn't figure out just by using the thing a couple of times. E.g., a strange polearm with a collection of hooks and strange bits poking in odd directions (what does it do? what are they for?).
Taking a feat is already required to "unlock" the "special" features of the three listed samurai weapons -- and wearing one without being a samurai was a veritable death-sentence.
I neglected costs, btw. Base cost of the three samurai weapons is double that of the based-off equivalent weapon, and masterwork costs are also double, and may require a reference if not referral if the swordmaker is to consider your "order" at all. Masterwork smaurai weapons are rarely found for sale in open markets unless an extended period of peace has left many of them unemployed ronin to the point of starvation.
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OK; now that I've built up the katana as the ultimate sword, know this: a well-trained spearman would eat a samurai's lunch every time in one-on-one combat on the battlefield, and every samurai knew it. (Spears are the most underrated weapon, vis-a-vis real world, in d20 for twenty years' running.) Japanese sword-fighting styles invariably used the weapon on horseback or in cramped quarters (buildings, urban settings, etc) which denied the easy use of polearms to the opponent. Contemporary opponents of samurai -- such as the Koreans who successfully repelled two Japanese invasions in the 16th Century -- learned how to deal with them: first, don't fight them on the ground with swords, because you'll lose. Next, arrows and polearms drive 'em back into the sea where they came from.
And they shouldn't grant free feats for weapon focus. They should either do those things or not
If I have a weapon with the Trip property, I gain benefits if I take Improved Trip -- so the precedent is already there. I chose Weapon Focus in these particular cases because that is what is most appropriate: extensive training with the weapons.
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so better weapons for free. why would anyone use anything else? No one would use an existing martial weapon, since those are way better, and most people will take focus anyway, so they get even more free power. Give'em wail of the banshee at will while your at it.
screw "realism" and a wall of "katanz r uber pwnz", its from a "game mechanic purpose". a weapon as much betterthan standard martial weapons( as the above examples are) are "exotic weapons".
Dude you got it all wrong. Having a balanced game is meaningless next to teh awesome that is the katana. If everyone in the game uses one then the game is better for it. In fact, not only should it be the most awesome weapon in the game, everyone should be given one at first level that even people too stupid to realize how awesome it is will have to use one also.
You could also save a lot of space on the weapon proficiency page.
Weapon damage Crit
KATANA 2d10 17-20/x4 trip/ sunder/ split the atom
Messing around with other weapons is dumb because the katana is so much better it's pointless. Recognizing this FACT in the rules is super important.
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so better weapons for free. why would anyone use anything else?
Well, let's count through the list:
1. They aren't free; they're twice as expensive, and you might be put to death for carrying one without proper authorization or contract to serve a local lord who can demand you take your own life for almost any reason whatsoever.
2. A katana is just the best d6 weapon, with some tricks to offset no shield if you train in it and aren't raging or power-attacking or denied your dex bonus. -- But you dislike those limitations, and aren't particularly excited about the benefits.
3. You think you might need to fight raging barbarians with polearms who will kick your ass if all you have is a katana/wakizashi and lacquer armor.
(Meanwhile, I kinda missed your support while talking the other posters out of the idea that a katana should be a d10/18-20 weapon, which would be an Elven Curve Sword you could hold in one hand!)
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Reason why the katana never "evolved" in Europe despite being a superior sword: because Europe was never that "big" on swords in the first place -- because they were inferior weapons versus armor and shields, which European knights wore in abundance.
A knight in plate with a "mace-and-chain" (flail) would splatter a samurai's brains all over the place.
But the d20 game doesn't incorporate the concept of DR into armor and shields, and so we play around a fair bit of nonsense.
Swords and bows are overrated; spears and flails are underrated.
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I believe one problem is the presumption that "exotic," as a PF term, is the same "exotic" one finds in the dictionary.Fair enough.
For example, in what way is a bastard sword exotic? Anymore so than a greatsword (aka claymore)? No, the reason the bastard sword is exotic is because it is mechanically superior to other one-handed melee weapons.A bastardsword is only exotic when used in a particular manner (one-handed). Most exotic weapons are awkward to use. Used in two hands, a bastardsword is a non-exotic weapon which is inferior to a greatsword. Monk weapons do crap for damage, but are exotic because they are difficult to use rapidly (i.e. get more attacks/round -- "flurry" -- than normal.
Exotic, in this instance, is a technical term. It could have just as easily been called "superior." Thus, the player who wants to wield a sword that's a cut above the longsword would take Superior Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword). And make no mistake - all exotic weapons are, in some manner, superior.Aside from the aforementiioned monk weapons. (Throwing a dagger and getting it to reliably hit point-first is insanely difficult compared to anything a monk does with his junk -- but any simple peon can throw daggers all day long in d20!)
If you, as a GM, decide to create a new one-handed weapon that deals 1D8 damage and x3 damage on a critical hit, you know you're dealing with a martial weapon. Were that critical hit multiplier a x4 instead, than you would have an exotic (superior) weapon.Picks and scythes do x4, and are not exotic.
You can provide all the historic facts you want to back up your argument, but when it comes down to it, you're faced with the same glaring problem: Pathfinder is a game. It is not reality.When a weapon bears the name of a real-world analog, players are going to expect more than a minor degree of similarity.
I mean seriously, this is a world where people use dire flails and wear full plate mail covered in steel spikes. No one seems to point out the absurdities with these.
Spiked full-plate has no historical analog, but spiked shields and helms make appearances (the main limitations are encumbrance and the expense of steel, both of which are understated in the game).
As far as way-too-good weapons, the fantasy games could be worse by including this real-world delight: the multi-headed flail and giving it real-world stats -- for when you really want to demonstrate why swords weren't the champs on the historical battlefield. :-D
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you haven't addressed my main point - really my only true point. That PF is a gameIt's a vague, universal non-argumrnt which can be deployed at any time for any reason.
balance is important for a game.I made a balanced katana: you can do some tricks with it, but it's an expensive d6 weapon with other limitations.
Does it make sense that a mace is inferior to a longsword in PF? No,
In what way is a mace equal to a longsword in real life? In real life, a longsword (as opposed to the rounder-tipped broadsword) had a sharp tip, and could be rammed through armor that a mace couldn't breach (or be swung against with enough power like a flail). (The sword was a knight's coup de grace weapon, after he had dropped a foe with axes or flails; the sword would slip through crevices in the armor or helm eye-slits, and dispatch him. Otherwise the sword had a longer reach, and was used from horseback against lightly-armored opponents.)
The longsword, cheated out of piercing in d20.
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So what basically this all means, the weapons fit for game mechanics and not for a real life equivalent and as such these arguments are really very silly.
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-Katana stuff-Ad nauseum. This argument is endless. Katanas are the religion/politics of RPGs, and it is impossible to satisfy everyone.
You know the developers aren't going to change the rules right? The fight is over, at least in PF land. You'll have to continue the war elsewhere.
I don't even know what the hell you're complaining about now.
I think you were ranting before I ever posted.
D8, or D6 for those "replicas made in Sri Lanka to sell to dorks in the U.S. to test on breastplates tied to a tree in their back yard for Youtube" I could see.
REAL katana? D12.
Katana: ultimate evolution of the blade. I don't care what anybody says.
It's a shame that I have to homebrew reality so random guys on the interweb who know a lot of "facts" aren't put off by it all, but there you have it.
*slaps self five*
It's like trying to put out a flame with propane and kittens...
It's a shame that I have to homebrew reality so random guys on the interweb who know a lot of "facts" aren't put off by it all, but there you have it.
yes, the tengu know all the best fencing ways.
Some lesser known Katanas
Katanarang - A specially built Katana designed to be thrown. Katanarangs used in war or for hunting don't actually return when thrown.
Katana Vanillie - A popular sword in 16th century theater. These swords were hugely popular until it was revealed that the swords used were actually fake and people realized the blood and severed limbs were not from actual bodies.
Katanarama - These popular ladies (or Samarinas) katanas were commonly used for the "Stab like an Egyptian" and "Venus" styles of combat.
Three Mile Katana - Named not for the length but for the island where the katana was first used to split the atom.
Katana Split - This cleverly made katana is actually two blades in one, by pushing a hidden button on the hilt the master swordsman can actually decapitate two adjacent enemies in one swing. (and is also the name of a tasty desert!)
Lightsabers!!!
Well, katana's aren't that good, but the katana is what a jedi would use if lightsabers didn't exested.
Katanas are real.
Lightsabers?
Not so real.
It's like somebody said.....
belief have of what you here,and
not even that much stuff you see.
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It's not in the PHB or Adventurers Armory. Also not in Luven Lightfingers.
Which blade would come close to mechanics of the Katana?
Disclaimer: This topic will probably devolve. Try searching "katana" or "samurai" in the archives. Without reading much that went before, but searching for "Kobold" in this thread first: I believe KQ had stats for katanas in one of its articles (the one with the tengu, #14). I can't find the issue itself, though, which would have the stats. The d20pfsrd doesn't have stats for them - probably in interest of self-preservation.
swords are not just for decoration. They'll cut you wide open. NSFW. Unless you work somewhere cool.
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Katanas are real.
Lightsabers?
Not so real.
I have to disagree with you here.
A light saber in game world is just as real as a katana in the game world. Both need to be statted out so they are reasonably balanced with other elements of the game world. Any option that is clearly superior to comparable options quickly becomes the only choice. A perfect example is the composite longbow.
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swords are not just for decoration. They'll cut you wide open. NSFW. Unless you work somewhere cool.
Don't forget the three Ds!
Katanas are real.
Lightsabers?
Not so real.I have to disagree with you here.
A light saber in game world is just as real as a katana in the game world. Both need to be statted out so they are reasonably balanced with other elements of the game world. Any option that is clearly superior to comparable options quickly becomes the only choice. A perfect example is the composite longbow.
No you're not disagreeing with me.
You're misquoting me.Don't think you've fooled anyone.
Don't think you've fooled anyone.
He fooled me!
Katanarang - A specially built Katana designed to be thrown. Katanarangs used in war or for hunting don't actually return when thrown.Yeah, but players are going to be upset when they find out their katanarangs don't return. I mean if you can make a recreational katanarang that does come back to you after being thrown, you should definitely be able to make a bladed one that does the same. Realism is super important.
Remember, katanas are special! They don't follow the rules of lesser blades.
I experimented with returning katanarangs but the players got upset when their characters kept losing fingers. The big thing with introducing any sort of katana to your game is realism is of utmost importance and katanarang throwing often results in lost fingers if you miss your catch (Acrobatics check equal to your attack roll).
Dude you are so wrong! They really are 3 miles long, I read it on the Internet somewhere. You should probably have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it one-handed though - I mean it'd be unrealistic otherwise.
I don't know, every samari on three mile island has a three mile katana. That's not very exotic if you ask me, it's downright commonplace.
He fooled me!
Don't think you've fooled anyone.
Yeah, but you're like that little lizard monkey that laughs when Jabba does mean s##$ to twi'leks.
C-3PO might sweat you, but not Spanky.
He fooled me!
Don't think you've fooled anyone.Yeah, but you're like that little lizard monkey that laughs when Jabba does mean s*!~ to twi'leks.
C-3PO might sweat you, but not Spanky.
I gets it, I gets it, You Fonny Goi!
Ah katana threads, I know you well. I almost avoided your lure this time...
Katana stuff
I feel compelled to speak up on a specific point, though, since I keep seeing come up in these threads.
There is NO reason for a katana to receive a special bonus to defense. There is nothing especially defensive in their design when compared to other swords.
Ah katana threads, I know you well. I almost avoided your lure this time...Katana stuffI feel compelled to speak up on a specific point, though, since I keep seeing come up in these threads.
There is NO reason for a katana to receive a special bonus to defense. There is nothing especially defensive in their design when compared to other swords.
No no no!
You have it all wrong, Katana has the patented "Slice Other Guy In Haff" defensive ability. When you use it you are so much better you slice him in two. Then you don't haffta hwoorry about him slice you.
Ah katana threads, I know you well. I almost avoided your lure this time...Katana stuffI feel compelled to speak up on a specific point, though, since I keep seeing come up in these threads.
There is NO reason for a katana to receive a special bonus to defense. There is nothing especially defensive in their design when compared to other swords.
No no no!
You have it all wrong, Katana has the patented "Slice Other Guy In Haff" defensive ability. When you use it you are so much better you slice him in two. Then you don't haffta hwoorry about him slice you.
But of course. They say high-level play is like rocket tag, but that's only because they were saving the term katana tag for epic-level play.
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Geez you two, have you no respect for the sanctity of the katana? If this thread has taught us anything, it is that katanas are serious business. They are (for some reason) special compared to every other sword in human history, and must be treated as such (apparently)! Now let us all bow our heads in prayer to this almighty piece of sharp, slightly curved metal.
Okay I'm done...
Katana serious...
People who take game rules too seriously are Fonny!!!
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Geez you two, have you no respect for the sanctity of the katana? If this thread has taught us anything, it is that katanas are serious business. They are (for some reason) special compared to every other sword in human history, and must be treated as such (apparently)! Now let us all bow our heads in prayer to this almighty piece of sharp, slightly curved metal.
Okay I'm done...
Katana serious...
People who take game rules too seriously are Pony!!!
FIFY