What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A surprising number of people don't realize that the size modifiers for CMB/CMD are different from the size modifiers to attack/AC. For instance, a halfling gets +1 to attack rolls and AC due to size, but gets a -1 instead for CMB/CMD due to size.


Went through all the posts looking for which FAQ requests were fulfilled...

And ignoring all the ones about grappling:

The very first post, this one about bonuses to CMB, and...well that's about it.

I saw the FAQ candidate of this one, and read the first part of it before bursting out laughing. The mental image of someone making a FAQ request of whether ravingdork is really THE ravingdork cracks me up.

Oh, and here's the most recent list from Howie.

Silver Crusade

Ghost Touch allows an incorporeal creature to wield weapons and wear armor against corporeal foes. And that weapon or armor is considered both corporeal and incorporeal.

A third level shadowdancer can summon a shadow under their control and equip them with ghost touch weapons and armor.

How effective that will be? Still uncertain, as a shadow has no strength score.

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:
Oh, and here's the most recent list from Howie.

I need to turn this project over to someone else. I have the Word file that I've used for the summary posts to date. My email address is in my profile. Who wants something to do?

The Exchange

I just want to thank Howie23 for putting up with this thread for as long as he did. I appreciate the hard work involved in the cataloging.


I love to play bards. Bardic, oh, EVERYTHING, is tremendously changed.

1. All bonuses and penalties to attacks and armor class apply to combat maneuvers. All of them. Flanking and Aid Another gives +4 to a combat maneuver. Inspire Courage gives +2. The spells that hit people's d20 rolls like Bestow Curse and Crushing Despair hurt combat maneuvers. I could give someone tremendous bonuses to these maneuvers. The next time someone I know says... "Boy, I'd really like to play a maneuver heavy Monk or Fighter" I know better what to do now.

2. Size bonuses to combat maneuevers and defenses are NOT +4 for Large size and so on and so forth. It is +1/-1.

3. There is no performance requirement for bardic abilities. The only ones that have them I think are Distraction and Countersong. Nothing else is dependent on performance ranks and there is no prerequisite number of ranks in Perform that you need for your bread and butter abilities, Inspire Competence/Inspire Courage/Inspire Greatness. If you go into an Archetype that loses Versatile Performance and those other abilties there is no mechanical reason, only flavor reasons, to put ranks into Perform.

4. Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness are move actions at 7th level and swift actions at 13th. Maintaining these is a free action. That is a HUGE change and power bump and I just know that even though that is such a juicy ability there are bards the world over missing that. to include, foolishly enough, myself. Before to do that you needed 2nd and 4th level spells. Now you get it for free.


Spcdri, all but number 4 are on the first page of this post. Number 3 was the very thing that made me make this post :-)


The first page of the thread? I didn't know that. Sorry about that, let me try to contribute...

Monster Changes:

These get forgotten when converting Aberrations from 3.0/3.5 I recently was making some shapeshifter style aberrations and had to work them from 3.0 shapeshifter/then 3.5/then Pathfinder and some things were tripping me up. Aberrations have a separate monster class skills list. Skills that many aberrations take have also been rolled into 1 skill, like Move Silently/Hide and the stuff that Perception governs. They also get 4, not 2, skill points a level. This will lead to them likely having something like 3 to 4 more maxed skills. Nicccce.


post to bookmark


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Maybe I'm the only one who didn't notice...

Armour Check Penalties are no longer doubled on Swim.


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Blave wrote:
Wait, so a Wand of Lesser Restoration will always cost only 750 gp because a paladin can cast the spell as level 1 spell? Now that's good to know...

Good luck finding a retired wand creating Paladin with one for sale...

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

detect magic and greater detect magic no longer have a 20 cap on the caster level check.

You can auto-succeed or auto-fail on a grapple (or any combat maneuver) with a 20 or 1.


Autos and Fumbles on CMDs? I had no idea. Interesting! Is it because the are considered attacks? Was it always like that in d20?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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SPCDRI wrote:
Is it because the are considered attacks?

No, it's because it says so in the combat maneuver rules.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
gbonehead wrote:
detect magic and greater detect magic no longer have a 20 cap on the caster level check.

I think you mean dispel magic and greater dispel magic. Previously the first had a cap at caster level 10 and the latter was uncapped. There still is an invisible cap at level 20 in Pathfinder, since you can't have a higher level than 20 at this time, though.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SPCDRI wrote:
Autos and Fumbles on CMDs? I had no idea. Interesting! Is it because the are considered attacks? Was it always like that in d20?

No, it wasn't always like this in d20, mostly due to the fact that previous to the Pathfinder RPG, there were no such things as combat maneuvers like these.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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It might have already been mentioned, but here are a couple of things:

Apparently, a lot of people are unaware that the Take 10 rules include this line:

Take 10 wrote:
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).

Many people miss that and come to all kinds of wild conclusions about how you can't Take 10 if you might fail, when really the stated purpose of the mechanic is to prevent yourself from failing.

Similarly, lots of people seem to be unaware that the Take 10 rules don't include this line:

NOT take 10 wrote:
...and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure,

That's from the Take 20 rules, which is a completely separate mechanic that involves making multiple checks and failing most of them and even explains that this is why you can't Take 20 if there's a penalty for failure.

This is absent from the Take 10 rules, which is a single check (lots of people also wrongly assume that Taking 10 requires ten times as much time to do as making a single check).


You can use vital strike, improved vital strike, and greater vital strike with missile attacks.

Maybe everyone else knew it, but I just realized it the other day, so maybe not.

Shadow Lodge

Oh yeah, Vital Strike is pretty much 3.5 Manyshot, but can be applied to melee weapons and doesn't have the to-hit penalty. Took me awhile to realize that myself.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Zaister wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
detect magic and greater detect magic no longer have a 20 cap on the caster level check.
I think you mean dispel magic and greater dispel magic. Previously the first had a cap at caster level 10 and the latter was uncapped. There still is an invisible cap at level 20 in Pathfinder, since you can't have a higher level than 20 at this time, though.

I absolutely meant dispel :)

Also, unless pp406-407 were deleted from the Core Rulebook after I got mine, anyone definitely can have a level higher than 20. They just don't have access to any special powers only available to characters at levels 21+.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
gbonehead wrote:
Also, unless pp406-407 were deleted from the Core Rulebook after I got mine, anyone definitely can have a level higher than 20. They just don't have access to any special powers only available to characters at levels 21+.

Well OK, you know what I meant. :)


Cheapy wrote:


A Bard doesn't need the Perform skill. The only performances that require it are Countersong and Distraction. Inspire Courage et al don't mention it at all, and you don't even need to use your primary artform when using it. It was intentionally left ambiguous so bards didn't have to keep on playing their instrument while using the performances. It's a free action to continue the performance.

I don't think this is quite correct...

The entry for the bard:
Quote:
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him

So anytime it mentions performance, it is referring to the bard using his Perform skill as mentioned. Which is every single one of them. Not sure how you could interpret it differently.

What you don't need are specific ranks in Perform anymore, but they still have to perform for all of them.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Given that Perform can be used untrained, I think he was just meaning that you don't need ranks in it and/or don't have to make perform checks unless you're using specific versions of bardic performance (which is true). I don't think he was saying that you didn't need to be performing to gain the benefits of your bardic performance.


iirc, my printing of the CRB has a rider under the perform skill about bard pre reqs. It was a real drag when someone pointed it out.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
iirc, my printing of the CRB has a rider under the perform skill about bard pre reqs. It was a real drag when someone pointed it out.
PRD wrote:
Special: A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities.

Those uses would be Distract and Countersong.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Evil Lincoln wrote:
iirc, my printing of the CRB has a rider under the perform skill about bard pre reqs. It was a real drag when someone pointed it out.

To emphasize what Cheapy quoted: it only says "some".


Some I've noticed:

Inspire courage can be done with a visual or audible performance... so theoretically can still be used inside a silenced area if the bard is using 'dance' or the like.

Performing combat maneuver to maintain a grapple, is a standard action... so you do not get iterative or hasted attacks when grappling. (This is one those ones that's probably always been true, just never noticed til recently)

Summoners: The Ability Increase evolution for your eidolon costs 4 points (not 2) if your eidolon is Large (for str and con). I see folks mis-pricing this all the time.

You do not get attack of opportunity vs anyone with any degree of cover, which would include 'soft' cover from an enemy combatant, if his friend behind him provokes and you have reach.

Items that grant +int bonuses (ie: the old headband of intellect) now also grant you some skill ranks in specific skills after wearing it for a day.

Negative levels do not actually impact your spell slots anymore. A level 11 wizard with 10 negative levels, still has all his 6th level spells (though admittedly his chain lightning is only doing 1d6 damage and only arcs once, but DC's remain the same).

Raise dead gives you 2 permanent negative levels, instead of you losing a level, and Restoration will remove permanent negative levels. So no longer any permanent loss from death (well other then in your pocket book)


Selgard wrote:

In PF, Higher enhancement bonuses overcome DR- just not if you get that enhancement bonus from say, Great magic weapon spell or whatnot.

Can anyone point me to the rule that states this part?

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

EvilMinion wrote:
Selgard wrote:

In PF, Higher enhancement bonuses overcome DR- just not if you get that enhancement bonus from say, Great magic weapon spell or whatnot.

Can anyone point me to the rule that states this part?

It's right here. Check out that nifty table that makes the solar's DR make no sense.

Personally, I'm inclined to say that for the solar, something truly does have to be epic and evil and that simply having enough magic doesn't count ... but the RAW would contradict that, given the rules for DR and enhancement bonuses.


gbonehead wrote:
EvilMinion wrote:
Selgard wrote:

In PF, Higher enhancement bonuses overcome DR- just not if you get that enhancement bonus from say, Great magic weapon spell or whatnot.

Can anyone point me to the rule that states this part?
It's right here.

Sorry, guess I should have been more specific, I meant the later part of the quote (the bolded portion above). Where is that rule?

Liberty's Edge

EvilMinion wrote:
gbonehead wrote:
EvilMinion wrote:
Selgard wrote:

In PF, Higher enhancement bonuses overcome DR- just not if you get that enhancement bonus from say, Great magic weapon spell or whatnot.

Can anyone point me to the rule that states this part?
It's right here.
Sorry, guess I should have been more specific, I meant the later part of the quote (the bolded portion above). Where is that rule?

Spell description:

Magic Weapon, Greater
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.


gbonehead wrote:
Personally, I'm inclined to say that for the solar, something truly does have to be epic and evil and that simply having enough magic doesn't count ... but the RAW would contradict that, given the rules for DR and enhancement bonuses.

I think it matters in cases where things damage is treated as Epic for bypassing DR/epic. Which I don't think is at all common.

Grand Lodge

brassbaboon wrote:

Interesting responses on the animal companion thing.

I suppose there's nothing in the RAW about how a druid should treat an animal companion, so I can see an argument for trading out companions at will.

But I wonder how many druid players would role play it that way.

I said I had contemplated doing an AC swap when our campaign moved from a temperate forest area into a more desolate mountainous area, and I knew from the description of the campaign we were in that it was going to be a long quest. In the end I decided that the "special bond" between my druid and my animal companion was such that neither of them wanted to separate.

I base this on the role playing decision that an animal companion is not a tool that the druid uses, but is an actual "companion" that shares an emotional attachment with the druid, sort of like a person and a beloved pet, but magnified beyond even that bond, and so I attempt to play my druid as if she truly has such a bond with her animal companion.

But that's a role playing thing, not a mechanics thing. I can see how a druid could be role played differently and could be more of a "spread the wealth" sort of druid who believes that bonding with multiple companions over time is an important part of being a druid.

In fact that's making me think a bit about my own role playing approach. My druid is currently without a companion, having lost her third companion in battle recently and deciding as penance to not take a new companion for a while. Perhaps her reaction to this will be to approach the animal companion experience differently and decide that she should experience a wide range of companions WITHOUT killing them off.

Food for thought.

I guess you could equally well play the druid as having a "menagerie" of various animal friends which he divides his attention among. The druid selects from his trusted friends which one of the animals that gets the privilege of joining him for a particular quest, and the 24 hours is just an allowance for the animal to join him (presumably the companions wouldn't be penned up) and for them to reconnect on a deeper level(i.e. get all the mechanics benefits). Storywise coherent and rules according to RAW :)


Jiggy wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
iirc, my printing of the CRB has a rider under the perform skill about bard pre reqs. It was a real drag when someone pointed it out.
To emphasize what Cheapy quoted: it only says "some".

This must have been an erratum.

My hardcopy first printing says: "A bard must have a minimum number of ranks to use his Bardic Performance abilities."

This definitely qualifies as "things that some people may not know"...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Evil Lincoln wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
iirc, my printing of the CRB has a rider under the perform skill about bard pre reqs. It was a real drag when someone pointed it out.
To emphasize what Cheapy quoted: it only says "some".

This must have been an erratum.

My hardcopy first printing says: "A bard must have a minimum number of ranks to use his Bardic Performance abilities."

This definitely qualifies as "things that some people may not know"...

Really? Wow. Yeah, I guess that'd have to qualify. :P

@Glade - Heh, my druid doesn't even like animals. ;)


so I didn't read all 850 posts... but my whole gaming group of several years wasn't aware this last weekend that invisibility gives the attacker +2 to hit while invisible.

Liberty's Edge

According to the PRD under "concealment", if an attacker makes an attack against the defender who is in concealment, the DEFENDER rolls the d% to avoid being struck. We always played it as the attacker rolls the d%; not that I think it makes a difference in the long run, but for those superstitious dice roller types, it might help.

I just checked the d20 SRD, and this rule hasn't changed.


EvilMinion wrote:

Some I've noticed:

You do not get attack of opportunity vs anyone with any degree of cover, which would include 'soft' cover from an enemy combatant, if his friend behind him provokes and you have reach.

Huh. Awesome. Does this have any practical applications in combat? I need to reread the cover rules when I get home...


HangarFlying wrote:

According to the PRD under "concealment", if an attacker makes an attack against the defender who is in concealment, the DEFENDER rolls the d% to avoid being struck. We always played it as the attacker rolls the d%; not that I think it makes a difference in the long run, but for those superstitious dice roller types, it might help.

I just checked the d20 SRD, and this rule hasn't changed.

I guess this applies to those that have a luck or re-roll ability.

Why is concealment the only ability that uses a d% when it could so easily be used as a d20 roll (as the %ages only go up in multiples of 5) and does this impact the ability of some people to re-roll a d20 but not anoy other kind of die?

Liberty's Edge

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Howie23 wrote:

Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect. (Note, this appeared with clarifying non OGC text in the PHB that it applied to the full numeric portion, or at least, that portion unrelated to caster level. That text did not appear in SRD.)

This part is no longer true.

Empower Spell (page 122): If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/08/11


This came up recently: Elementals are a subtype of the Outsiders.

Scarab Sages

Does anyone have an updated version of Howie's list?

I'd like to get a hold of it and make a sorted .pdf for my DM.


Silence spell is now a full round casting that lasts rounds.

Glitterdust gives a save every round.


Raising Int after character generation retroactively adds skill points.

Except for the headbands. Those just give skill ranks in one skill, chosen at creation.

The Exchange

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Higher ground does not provide a +1 bonus to ranged attacks, only to melee attacks.

Yet another reason not to lean over the edge of one of the wizard's "create pit" type spells, especially given the oft-overlooked point that ending your turn adjacent to one of these means you have to make a reflex save (at +2) or fall in and suffer the consequences (which generally range from screwed to dead).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If you fall "deliberately", the first 1d6 of fall damage is nonlethal even if you're not employing acrobatics - a successful acro check reduces the remaining lethal damage, but any deliberate fall makes the first 1d6 nonlethal. Relatedly, you only fall prone if you take lethal damage from the fall.

So if you fall into a 10ft pit, you take 1d6 and go prone. If you hop in on purpose, you take 1d6 nonlethal and stay on your feet.

If you hop down 20ft and succeed on your acro check, you take 1d6 nonlethal and land on your feet.

Scarab Sages

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With Howie23's permission I adapted his list to a .pdf/.doc format and changed the layout for readability. The document is viewable in Google Docs, here and downloadable as a .pdf here.


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just dotting this for when I can get my computer running write again, seems a number of downloads have been saved as music files.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tagion wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
Matthew Winn wrote:

"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn,

you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up
to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you
cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw
feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to
taking only a standard action on your turn."

Core, pg 198

Thus, zombies don't need to be fast to charge.
Yes , a standard zombie with the "staggered" ability is quiet possibly one of the fastest land moving things you will fight LOL. Because its only viable in combat to charge with them , they move 60ft a round and hit with a +2 .

You are right about the standard zombie most likely charging, however it will only have one move action or one standard action, thus giving it only 30 ft of movement not 60.


Telodzrum wrote:
With Howie23's permission I adapted his list to a .pdf/.doc format and changed the layout for readability. The document is viewable in Google Docs, here and downloadable as a .pdf here.

Thank you very much.

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