mdt, please re-read the post and example I made.
I was very careful in specifying that the CL affect the sell price of the item, what don't affect it is the level at which a class acquire the spell.
I read the post, and this one. The above statement is not correct. A bard that makes a Cure Moderate wand or potion cannot set the caster level to below 4 for either. Since the spell very specifically does 2d8 + Caster Level, the minimum healing a bard wand/potion can do is 2d8+4. However, a cleric created potion/wand does only 2d8+3, as the cleric's assumed default is CL 3.
Therefore, the level the class acquires the spell directly affects the caster level, and thus the price of the object. This is due to the rules saying you assume the minimum caster level possible for the creator. Unfortunately, this creates a dichotomy, as our example shows, where a bard has a minimum caster level higher than a cleric when making the same potion.
EDIT :
Also, note your example of the Ranger CLW potion/wand. That wand/potion also does 1d8+4 when used, since the Ranger get's CLW at level 7, and his CL is his level - 3. Thus the minimum CL for a ranger CLW wand/potion is CL 4.
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PS2:If you are saying that a caster level of X does not change the price as long as X is the same for both classes then I never disagreed with that.
I am saying that if the caster level of a potion, wand or scroll is higher both the craft price and the sell price are higher,
but
if some caster get a spell as a level 2 spell instead of level 1 spell and the item has the same caster level the craft price change but the sell price stay the same.
Example:
- a CLW wand made by a cleric at CL 4 cost 1.500 to craft and is sold at 3.000
- a CLW wand made by a ranger at CL 4 cost 3.000 to craft but it is sold at 3.000 [in a magic mart :) ] as that is the minimum price for a wand of CLW with that casting level.The situation will change if in your game world the magic item crafting feats are taken only by a few individuals and the seller rule the market, but that is not the standard game situation.
I am almost sure this is RAW, but I will check if I can find a relevant rule.
Really you have read it? So how you have missed the now bolded parts?
They say exactly what you are saying, but you continue to say, "no you are wrong."
At what level a caster get the spell don't matter, what matter is the caster level at which the item is made.
Yep, and you are still wrong.
Cost to make a wand = level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750. You have artificially inflated the Cleric's CL to 4th, and the Ranger's CL to 4th. Both are 1st level spells for both of them. Both are using the same CL, both wands have the same creation cost.
1 x 4 x 750 = 3,000/2 = 1,500 creation.
Now, if you meant 'Cost to create the wand at the minimum caster level they can cast it at', then there would still be no difference in cost.
A cleric can cast CLW at 1st level. A Ranger at 4th level. However, his Caster Level is treated as Ranger - 3. That makes his minimum CL for the CLW wand 1st. So both would cost 1 x 1 x 750 = 750/2 = 375gp.
Note that in both of the above examples, the cure wands do exactly the same healing as well, the first ones both do 1d8+4 (since they are both set to CL 4) and the second set both do 1d8+1.
EDIT : Fixed a typo
At what level a caster get the spell don't matter, what matter is the caster level at which the item is made.
That is only true for a PC making it, or an NPC being commissioned to make it. If you are buying something from ye olden magic shop, then per the rules, it's assumed to be made at the lowest CL possible. Then it matters what level you get the spell at, since that affects the CL, which affects the price, the effects, and so on.
** spoiler omitted **
Actually, a Ranger doesn't get CLW as level 1 spell. He has to wait until he gets his first 2nd level spell slot at character level 7. Hence the caster level of 4.
** spoiler omitted **Actually, a Ranger doesn't get CLW as level 1 spell. He has to wait until he gets his first 2nd level spell slot at character level 7. Hence the caster level of 4.
Ah, mea culpa then. I thought it was a 1st level spell for rangers too.
However, that means a CLW made by a ranger is better than one made by a cleric, as it will heal at a minimum 1d8+4, not 1d8+1 like the cleric's default minimum wand. Now, I agree, if both are made at CL 4, then both have the same value (the minimum of the two). However, by default, ye olden magic shop has both a cleric wand of CLW and a ranger wand of CLW, then the ranger wand is worth more, since the CLW from the cleric will be a CL 1 wand, and the Ranger's will be a CL 4 wand. Which is all the point I was trying to make earlier about why it matters when a class get's a spell, it affects the costs/usability of the stuff you buy in game.
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** spoiler omitted **
No, what count is the caster level of the item, a potion in this case.
mdt, you can buy stuff at different CL, look the magic missile wands for an example.
What you don't seem to get is that I was purposefully comparing items at the same caster level to avoid disparities in the price based on that.
To repeat it again:
If the CL is the same, the item should sell at the same price, the lowest price at which it can be produced x2.
The level at which a guy get the spell has no effect on the sell price, only the CL of the item.
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This may be too late to be effective, but please take discussions that have moved past simple refutation of a false statement to another thread. It's easy for what seems like a simple refutation to turn into a debate that then serves to thread-jack a thread with tremendous utility otherwise. Thanks.
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No, what count is the caster level of the item, a potion in this case.
But when you DRINK the potion, the book says that the imbiber is the effective caster of the effect. Throwing all the crafting details and cost aside: At the end of the day, when it ends up in a PC's hands that has no Caster Levels there's nothing to transfer to the potion. You should lose the +X bonus healing.
cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5)
In 3.5 healing potions were a static Xd8+Y, (1d8+1 for a CLW potion) but in Pathfinder:
The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
What I was pointing out in regards to the OP's topic was that in 3.5 potions that depend on caster level as a variable were based on the creator. In Pathfinder, they're based on the imbiber.
This may be too late to be effective, but please take discussions that have moved past simple refutation of a false statement to another thread. It's easy for what seems like a simple refutation to turn into a debate that then serves to thread-jack a thread with tremendous utility otherwise. Thanks.
Seconded, also, dotting. What a fantastic thread, let's not derail it now.
This seems to be common knowledge by now, but applying and casting a metamagic spell as a spontaneous caster is now a full-round action, as opposed to the brutal one-round casting time in 3.5.
Everything else I've encountered I've been beaten to. Ability damage only applying a penalty on a +2, for example.
Also people often overlook the added utility of new "Greater" feats. Greater Grapple allows two grapple checks a round (being able to both pin and damage a foe, for example), greater feint denies a foe their dex until your next turn (helpful for a party rogue, I suppose, but not worth the feats) and Greater Bullrush causes foes to provoke.
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Seconded, also, dotting. What a fantastic thread, let's not derail it now.This seems to be common knowledge by now, but applying and casting a metamagic spell as a spontaneous caster is now a full-round action, as opposed to the brutal one-round casting time in 3.5.
Everything else I've encountered I've been beaten to. Ability damage only applying a penalty on a +2, for example.
Also people often overlook the added utility of new "Greater" feats. Greater Grapple allows two grapple checks a round (being able to both pin and damage a foe, for example), greater feint denies a foe their dex until your next turn (helpful for a party rogue, I suppose, but not worth the feats) and Greater Bullrush causes foes to provoke.
Even in 3.5 it was a full-round action, just widely misread.
Not sure I have seen this one yet :
- Ability Drain can cause feats to be unusable if you do not fullfill the prerequistes anymore, likewise magical items that increase an ability score can be used to qualify for feats as long as you continue to wear the item(s).
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Not sure if everyone knows, but while bards can't have more than one song active at a time, a higher level Bard could do several in one round.
Example:
Dirge of Doom (so everything is shaken) as a swift action
Cast Fear Spell as a standard action (they get -2 to the save from Dirge, and they are already shaken, so even those who make the save will run for one round)
Inspire Courage on the party as a move action
If you have the spells casters ready an action to cast after they hear the dirge, they can take advantage of the momentary -2 to opponents' saves.
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Three changes to Grapple that caught me by surprise when first trying to use them:
...
Grapplers no longer lose their DEX bonus to AC against other foes, meaning you can't automatically sneak attack someone because they're grappled (although flanking them to sneak is easier). In 3.5 grappling was a good way to grant automatic sneak attacks.
Grapple is still impossible to play without house ruling something. They say the grappler (and the grapplee) takes a -4 penalty to AC. Went to great pains, it seems, to remove the fact that grappling gives you an automatic sneak attack target. However, the Armor Class Modifiers table on page 195 of the Core Rulebook has a footnote on Grappling. That says that you lose your Dex bonus to AC. Which in fact means that you are still vulnerable to sneak attack.
So... which is it? According to the rulebook I have, if I use every rule in it as faithfully as possible, grappled, and grappling characters both still lose their Dex bonus to AC (and are sneak-attackable). However, the only place I can still find this information is in a footnote in a table I never would have thought to look at after reading all the grapple information. It is not listed in the 2 pages on grapple (except for pinning a target, which, stupidly, makes the PINNER lose his dex bonus). It is not listed in the "grappled" condition in the condition summaries at the end of the book.
Further complicating matters, the table on page 195 again states for pinned targets that they are flat-footed (which is a different footnote than simply losing their Dex bonus to AC) WRT melee and ranged attacks, which also isn't mentioned in the text. Pinned in the text is doubly broken, because it says it's a more severe form of grapple, then it says the pinned target suffers an additional -4 penalty to Dex, then it says that grappled and pinned condition modifiers don't stack. Wait... what?
Summary? This needs errata. Either remove those footnotes from the grappled and pinned entries on the table, or add those effects to the text.
EDIT: This actually came up last night after a mage cast Black Tentacles on the party. Should I move this post to start a thread to the Rules forum?
Three changes to Grapple that caught me by surprise when first trying to use them:
...
Grapplers no longer lose their DEX bonus to AC against other foes, meaning you can't automatically sneak attack someone because they're grappled (although flanking them to sneak is easier). In 3.5 grappling was a good way to grant automatic sneak attacks.
Grapple is still impossible to play without house ruling something. They say the grappler (and the grapplee) takes a -4 penalty to AC. Went to great pains, it seems, to remove the fact that grappling gives you an automatic sneak attack target. However, the Armor Class Modifiers table on page 195 of the Core Rulebook has a footnote on Grappling. That says that you lose your Dex bonus to AC. Which in fact means that you are still vulnerable to sneak attack.
So... which is it? According to the rulebook I have, if I use every rule in it as faithfully as possible, grappled, and grappling characters both still lose their Dex bonus to AC (and are sneak-attackable). However, the only place I can still find this information is in a footnote in a table I never would have thought to look at after reading all the grapple information. It is not listed in the 2 pages on grapple (except for pinning a target, which, stupidly, makes the PINNER lose his dex bonus). It is not listed in the "grappled" condition in the condition summaries at the end of the book.
Further complicating matters, the table on page 195 again states for pinned targets that they are flat-footed (which is a different footnote than simply losing their Dex bonus to AC) WRT melee and ranged attacks, which also isn't mentioned in the text. Pinned in the text is doubly broken, because it says it's a more severe form of grapple, then it says the pinned target suffers an additional -4 penalty to Dex, then it says that grappled and pinned condition modifiers don't stack. Wait... what?
Summary? This needs errata. Either remove those footnotes from the grappled and pinned entries on the...
I'd be interested to see that clarified too, can you post it here?
As a side note, the PFSRD has some fantastic grapple flowcharts that've made my monk much, much less of a headache to play. Worth a look.
@RD: Sorry if you got offended by it....but atleast how I read you are wrong. Again you are looking at the rules in general vs specfic. That is a problem you suffer from. It is not rude to point it out...hopefuly you'll learn something.
The craft feats of craft wand, scribe scrool and brew potions are all worded exactly the same way. You must know the spell. There are no prerequites listed for potions, scrolls, or wands. Ergo logic dictates the work exactly the same in terms of crafting.
Can you show me any text that specficaly says you can create a potion without the spell? Because I saw a general rule that only states that you need the spell for spell completetion and spell-trigger items, which is over ridden by the specific rule in the feat description.
If you want we can take thing to another thread.
It seems to be the idea that Defender is nothing more then another source of AC. Slap it on a gauntlet, throw it all into AC, and profit.
That's not how it's designed.
You are supposed to be wielding the weapon in combat on your turn. This requires an attack action, the same as defensive fighting. If you aren't wielding it on your turn, you don't get the bonus, because you aren't using the weapon to defend yourself...you're casting a spell or shooting a bow.
You'd still get the penalty if you were allowed AoO's, because you've taken them away, but no bonus. You aren't parrying anything with the weapon...you're doing something else.
It's consistent with Defensive Fighting, and should be played as such. If you think it is just an optional AC source priced the same as a Deflection bonus, well, okay, that's your right, too.
===Aelryinth
It seems to be the idea that Defender is nothing more then another source of AC. Slap it on a gauntlet, throw it all into AC, and profit.
That's not how it's designed.
You are supposed to be wielding the weapon in combat on your turn. This requires an attack action, the same as defensive fighting. If you aren't wielding it on your turn, you don't get the bonus, because you aren't using the weapon to defend yourself...you're casting a spell or shooting a bow.
You'd still get the penalty if you were allowed AoO's, because you've taken them away, but no bonus. You aren't parrying anything with the weapon...you're doing something else.
It's consistent with Defensive Fighting, and should be played as such. If you think it is just an optional AC source priced the same as a Deflection bonus, well, okay, that's your right, too.
===Aelryinth
This. Why on a weapon otherwise?
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Frequently Unknown Rules (through post 328)
Frequently unknown rules
including summary from:
Change from SRD/D&D to Pathfinder
1. Bardic abilities no longer based on Perform skill other than Countersong and Distraction.
2. Many Shot and Rapid Shot can now be used together.
3. Spiked chain no longer has reach.
4. Anything that improves attack rolls improves CMB, including weapon feats if using weapon for the special attack.
5. Paladin double of smite against some creatures is on first attack only.
6. Sneak attack and critical damage applies to many additional creatures, including undead and constructs.
7. Magic item creation no longer uses XP.
8. Characters can draw a weapon during a charge, but can only charge a single move distance and must have a BAB of +1. If charging a single move distance due to being restricted to a single action (surprise, slow, etc.), charging character must have Quickdraw to draw a weapon in the same round as a charge.
9. Magic item creation vastly changed. Note that there are various disagreements about exactly how it works, particularly with reference to prerequisites; those discussions are outside the scope of this document.
10. Dodge applies to all opponents, not just one specified opponent.
11. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm split into a feat tree (Improved and Greater)
12. Grapple works differently. Some highlights: grapplers no longer share space. Ranged attacks into a grapple no longer risk hitting the wrong target. Grappled creatures threaten surrounding squares and can attack into them (at –2 to hit). Effects on AC and sneak attack are debated (see below). Effectively, while changed, grapple is still problematic.
13. Weapon enhancement bonus (the plus portion, not the cost equivalent) overcomes various DR at different DR than just magic
14. Elves sleep, but are still immune to magical sleep.
15. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
16. Many save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have re-saves or more limited effects.
17. Cantrips are at-will.
18. Indentification of magic items changed significantly (see detect magic, identify, Spellcraft, and Perception)
19. Power Attack, Cleave, and Greater Cleave all different.
19.a. Combat Expertise different, too.
20. Clerics don’t get heavy armor proficiency, get proficiency with deities favored weapon, and need a feat to turn undead.
21. Fighters can retrain bonus feats.
22. Scrolls take a standard action, but longer if the spell contained has a longer casting time. (This may have been added in D&D add-on material as well, such as Rules Compendium).
23. Feats at every odd level instead of 1, 3, 6, 9, etc.
24. Track is no longer a feat
25. Stabilization and death changed.
26. Mithral armor now requires proficiency in original type of armor, not just resulting armor.
27. Monk flurry of blows different.
28. Poison rules incorporated into affliction and changed significatly; poison tougher all around.
29. Stealth/Perception changed in multiple ways from multiple skill set in SRD.
30. Barbarians rage x rounds/day instead of x times/day
31. Gate spell changed from 2x level to 1x CL in terms of HD called/controlled.
32. Natural attacks changed. Creature can have multiple primary attacks.
33. Bardic Knowledge is changed. Bards get bonus to knowledge checks and can use untrained.
34. Regeneration is simpler. See universal monster rule for regeneration.
35. Alchemical items no longer require CL1 for some items.
36. Class HD changes in many areas.
37. Templates changed in many ways.
38. Far Shot halves range penalty instead of increasing range.
39. Mounted Combat now uses immediate action rather than 1/round language.
40. Blind creatures use acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else prone. Cannot run or charge.
41. Incorporeal creatures take 50% of damage of effective attacks instead of only being affected for the full amount 50% of the time.
42. Uncanny Dodge changed: character with uncanny dodge is not flat-footed.
43. Initiative is rolled prior to the start of surprise round for all combatants. In SRD/D&D, surprised characters do not roll initiative until after the surprise round is over.
44. Wizard specialists can now take spells from their opposed schools, but such spells cost two slots to prepare. All wizards, whether specialist or not, gain abilities at levels based upon their specialty.
45. Wizards can opt to have a bonded object instead of a familiar. A bonded object provides various benefits for use and penalties if unavailable.
46. Detect (alignment) spells work differently. They do not detect alignment auras at low hit dice, and can register based upon intentions rather than actual alignment or deeds.
47. If damage is less due to strength penalties such that damage would be less than 1, the damage in PF is 1 point of non-lethal. In SRD/D&D, the damage is reduced to 1 point of lethal.
48. Caster level for ranger and paladins is class level –3 instead of class level/2.
49. Ranger favored enemy bonus applies to attack rolls as well as damage.
50. Harm spell explicitly cannot reduce hit points below 1, whether the save is made or not.
51. Sunder can be used as a tactic that is not self-defeating for loot-loving PCs. Minor repair magic, such as mending and make whole, are more useful as a result.
52. Market Value of Magic Items (Language Pending)
53. Ability damage results in a penalty for every full –2 damage. The result of such penalties are limited in scope depending on the ability. Contrast with ability drain.
54. Ability drain is required before losing benefits from skill points and ability prerequisites required to qualify for feats and prestige classes. Contrast with ability damage.
55. Polymorph school spells have changed. See polymorph spells and specific spells, such as alter self.
56. A character can make a magic item without being a spell caster through the Master Crafsman feat.
Always like this, but frequently misplayed or not known previously
1. Inspire courage is free action to continue once having started.
2. Animal companions can be dismissed at will and replaced with 24 hours; note that new companion requires training other than bonus feats.
3. Ranged attacks suffer from cover from objects, enemies, or allies. Allies often overlooked. Applies to reach weapons as well.
4. Weapons and armor must have +1 enhancement prior to gaining additional enchantments.
5. Readying an action is a standard action. One can move first, and then ready. The readied action itself can be a standard, move, free, or swift action. (Note: could not explicitly be swift in SRD 3.5; swift was not in the SRD.) Can include 5’ step as part of the readied action if no other movement in either the readied action or prior to the readied action during regular turn.
6. Lesser Restoration is a three round casting time. Usually, this means it isn’t used during combat. Potion of lesser restoration is good for in combat, tho.
7. Immunity to cold/fire gives vulnerability to opposite. (Developers have indicated future change for this)
8. Elementals are immune to flanking and critical hits.
9. Enlarge person has a 1 round casting time.
10. Sneak attack and other precision damage applies to every attack in a round, not just once per round.
11. Characters who use the run action lose Dex bonus to AC, and thus are subject to sneak attack.
12. Dimensional anchor has no saving throw, just spell resistance.
13. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
14. Creatures can often overcome the DR that is needed to hit them (magic, epic, etc.)
15. Characters and creatures can charge a single move distance as a standard action if limited to a single action, such as during a surprise round. This doesn’t mean you can opt to only charge as a standard action if you have a full round of actions available.
16. Coup de grace can be performed against a creature with total concealment, such as invisibility, by using two full round actions.
17. Ride-by Attack is still a mess.
18. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect.
19. Harm (moved to item 50 of things that have changed)
20. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
21. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
22. Grease can be used to disarm.
23. Fear effects stack or escalate; characters can become more fearful.
24. Withdraw action can be double move. AoO only prevented from first square left.
25. Auto-success on a 20 and Auto Fail on a 1 are not universal to all rolls. They apply only when called out. Typical examples are attack rolls and saving throws. The following are not subject to auto-success/failure: Skill checks, caster level checks, concentration checks.
26. Take 10 on skill check can be used when not in immediate danger or distracted. Do not confuse with Take 20’s restriction from use if there is a negative consequence.
27. Take 20 cannot be used if there is a negative result for failure. Do not over-generalize to apply this to Take 10.
28. You cannot take AoOs when flat-footed (usually in surprise round or before you have acted in first round) unless you have Combat Reflexes or a similar ability.
29. Using a wand with a casting time longer than a standard action takes that long to activate. A wand of summon monster I takes 1 round and a wand of lesser restoration takes 3 rounds. But, you have to know to look under the activation section at the start of the wand section to know this.
30. A character can use a wand with a spell on his class list, even if he can’t cast spells yet. For example, a 3rd level paladin can use a wand of cure light wounds.
31. Familiars and animal companions can be the target of spells that they can not normally be the target of, such as enlarge person.
32. Ranged touch attacks (rays) and touch attacks can be the object of weapon improvement feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc., and also benefit from feats such as Weapon Finesse.
33. A character can take only one immediate or swift action per round. Note: Swift and Immediate actions not part of the SRD, but commonly in use. (When does it reset language)
34. Mutliple magical effcts that increase size do not stack.
35. Spells with range of personal cannot be made into potions.
36. Reach weapons can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away, but cannot be used against adjacent foes. Various feats and class abilities can make it possible to do so.
37. Metamagic applied to spontaneous casting (bards, sorcerers, etc.) and to class-based spontaneous casting (cleric’s spontaneous cure or druid’s spontaneous summon) take longer to cast. Such spells take a full round action (different than 1 round casting time) to cast if originally a standard action; spells with a casting time originally longer than a standard action take an additional full round action. A sorcerer’s empowered magic missile would take a full round action to cast, and would come into effect at the end of his turn; in contrast, a wizard’s enlarge person (with no metamagic), has a 1 round casting time and comes into effect at the start of the wizard’s next turn.
38. A number of spell effects (remove disease, remove curse, knock, etc.) require a caster level check to be successful instead of automatically; this is not universal to all similar spells.
39. Darkvision is not spoiled by other light sources. (Different in comparison to some pre 3e versions of D&D)
It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it confused
1. Reach weapons for small and medium creatures have a reach of 10 feet. Despite a diagram that says otherwise, they can still attack two squares on a diagonal.
2. Double weapons are two-handed weapons with special properties regarding two-handed fighting. If a double weapon is used in one hand, only one end can be used. The missing text that clarifies things is that using a two-handed weapon with one hand only happens if it is sized smaller than you or you have an additional rules resource to permit it.
It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it clear
1. Wizards with prestige classes only get 2 free spells when gaining a level of wizard, not when gaining a level of the prestige class.
2. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. (In 3.5, this was subject to variance.)
Pending Resolution or More Complex than Can Be Dealt With Here
1. Quickened Spell on spells with casting time of 1 round. (see discussion in rules section of forum, here.
2. What is the interaction between grapple, pin, AC, Dex Bonus to AC, sneak attack? Contradictory rules (particularly when inclusive of condition table footnotes) are contradictory or ambiguous. discussion thread.
3. Defending Weapons discussion thread.
4. The arcane topic of dragon skin armor.
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Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
Note: this, or something similar, was in the original SRD text and DMG and subsequently errata'd out of the DMG. The SRD did not benefit from the errata applied by WotC to the D&D rulebooks, but various sites that republish the SRD often update the SRD to reflect the errata.
PS2:If you are saying that a caster level of X does not change the price as long as X is the same for both classes then I never disagreed with that.
I am saying that if the caster level of a potion, wand or scroll is higher both the craft price and the sell price are higher,
but
if some caster get a spell as a level 2 spell instead of level 1 spell and the item has the same caster level the craft price change but the sell price stay the same.
Example:
- a CLW wand made by a cleric at CL 4 cost 1.500 to craft and is sold at 3.000
- a CLW wand made by a ranger at CL 4 cost 3.000 to craft but it is old at 3.000 [in a magic mart :) ] as that is the minimum price for a wand of CLW with that casting level.The situation will change if in your game world the magic item crafting feats are taken only by a few individuals and the seller rule the market, but that is not the standard game situation.
I am almost sure this is RAW, but I will check if I can find a relevant rule.
That is incorrect. The formula I quoted above is from the book, and it has a fireball wand as an example. That formula also matches the 3.5 wand prices if you insert numbers into them.
PS:That formula is what you use to determine the base price. The crafting price is half the cost of the base price.
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Howie, thanks for taking the time to put together the list. You rock!
The one thing I want to mention is that for #1, I consider the fact that Bards can do things other than sing to be just as important, if not more so, than the fact that it isn't tied to Performance. In 3.5, Bards had to sing to do their performance, which meant that they could not cast spells (according to the SRD). The PF bard doesn't specify how they do their performances, just that they do, and that they can do other things as well. This is huge difference for Bards. If you could change it to
1. Bardic performances no longer based on Perform skill (other than Countersong and Distraction) and the bard can do other things while performing.
that'd be great!
Howie, just wanted to add my thanks for your work on that list as well.
Can the OP perhaps include this list in their original post?
This is not a regular php board. You only get one hour to edit your post.
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If you could change it to
1. Bardic performances no longer based on Perform skill (other than Countersong and Distraction) and the bard can do other things while performing.that'd be great!
I've edited for next iteration of the list to be: "1. Bardic performances no longer based on Perform skill (other than Countersong and Distraction) and the bard can do other things while performing without interrupting a performance, such as cast spells. In SRD/3.5, a verbal performance would be interrupted by spellcasting."
If anyone is seeing something I've missed or think some wording is unclear, please speak up. I've intentionally left out some detailed areas (many spells and feats have changed, so have just hit the more commmon ones that have been mentioned.
I will organize next iteration to be sorted in some reasonable way (likely similar to the chapter organization).
Thanks for the expressions of appreciation to all who have extended them. Happy to help. I've been meaning to do something like this for a long time and the group work has made the work lighter.
Fighters can trade out their bonus feats. I was playing for over 6 months before I realized that.
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Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats. (Change or clarification from SRD/D&D)
Animals do not have to be proficient in armor to wear barding, but may have penalties depending on what barding they wear. (Same as SRD/D&D)
The one that caught my group by surprise, mostly because we all came from 3.5, was that undead and constructs could now be critically hit and sneak attacked.
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The craft feats of craft wand, scribe scrool and brew potions are all worded exactly the same way. You must know the spell. There are no prerequites listed for potions, scrolls, or wands. Ergo logic dictates the work exactly the same in terms of crafting
John - it actually says the same thing with regard to spells under the Magic Item Creation sections Magic Weapons, Magic Armor, Rods, Staves, and Wondrous Items (and it repeats the requirements under Potions, Scrolls, and Wands). - Core Rulebook p.550-553
By your interpretation, the specific rule listed in the listing for every type of item would override the general rule in every case, and you'd never, ever be able to create any item without the requisite spells. If that were the case, there would be no point in the general rule allowing the exception.
My reading of it goes like this...any spells listed are prerequisites. Any prerequisite can be ignored by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC, except...
You must have the required Item Creation feat for any magic item, and you must have the spells prepared or known if it is a spell-trigger or spell-completion item.
For what it's worth, I agree that it makes perfect sense to (absolutely) require spell prerequisites for potions, since you are in essence casting a spell into the potion when you create it. It's only logical.
But, if the specific rule for potions overrides the general rule allowing spell prerequisites to be ignored by increasing the DC, then the specific rule for everything else would also override it, and it would simply never apply to anything, anywhere.
the + required to sunder was the original, 3.0 rules SRD. They did away with it in 3.5 because they wanted Titans able to sunder +1 swords without needing magic weapons.
Just a FYI. The logic works both ways.
==Aelryinth
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You forgot under "always been this way, but often forgotten" the rule that crafting (whether magic item creation or mundane crafting) has zero effect on the total value of assets wrt WBL.
Under the new rules section, you forgot that, in Pathfinder, WBL applies to existing characters, not just character creation.
Can you explain what you mean by this, please? "..has zero effect on the total value of assets wrt WBL..." doesn't have a clear meaning to me, and the possibilities that I'm coming up with include diametric opposites. :)
My personal understanding is that WbL is a standard for total assets owned, regardless of how they were obtained. In other words, crafting doesn't result in a character being any richer or having any more stuff.
That doesn't seem to be the case.
If you craft a Gizmo and spend 20k gp for it, and you've invested in a feat, it's worth 20k towards your WBL. If you find the Gizmo, it's worth 40k towards your WBL...the same it would cost to purchase (not sell) it.
Otherwise, you're shorting people who got the feat.
SKR has consistently interpreted the rule in this manner.
==Aelryinth
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This isn't unique to PF, but I'm surprised how many people never remember that all parties begin combat flat-footed until they act. I try to keep a good grip on this, because I hate getting the drop on PCs with a high Stealth monster and having them use their full freakin' ACs against my attack rolls.
Hah, the main reason my group knew about that rule was due to an old order of the stick webcomic on sneak attack in the first round. I remember the day it was brought up by one of the members about that strip and everyone looking up the rules. Actually we picked up a few interesting rules here and there from reading the comics.
If you craft a Gizmo and spend 20k gp for it, and you've invested in a feat, it's worth 20k towards your WBL.If you're talking about paying half cost to craft an item, then the asset you create is worth 40K towards you WBL.
This is RAW.I have no idea what "SKR" is.
Sean K. Reynolds, one of the developers.
SKR has consistently interpreted the rule in this manner.
==Aelryinth
I need a link to support this.
Elsewise, we should stick to RAW.
There is no RAW on this, only Rules As interpreted.
Well I don't know if somebody mentioned it but I feel I have to say it.
VITAL STRIKE IS A STANDARD ACTION. IT DOES NOT WORK ON A FULL ATTACK, CHARGE, OR SPRING ATTACK. YOU GET ONE ATTACK WITH EXTRA DAMAGE. THAT IS ALL.
It isn't a great feat, but its purpose is to give extra damage when you have to move and swing or when you ready. Sorry if it sounds hostile, but I have seen way too many threads asking when you can use Vital Strike.
