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What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively."

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

phantom1592 wrote:
joshwitz wrote:


From the Perception Skill description:

"Identify the powers of a potion through taste"
DC = 15+Potion's Caster Level

/finds unlabled potion

/Takes taste...

/swishes around mouth....

Yep.. That's Poison!!! hmmm... Pretty nasty stuff toooooooo.....

/dies

Or to quote the great philospher socrates.... "I drank WHAT?!?"

This happened ALL THE TIME in 1E and 2E, at least until Detect Poison came around.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
Tagion wrote:
But since attacks with spiked gauntlets are considered armed attacks, would casting a touch attack spell while wearing one count the gauntlet as an item touched, automatically discharging the spell to no effect?
Wearing a gauntlet does not discharge the spell. If that were true, no one would be able to use touch spells unless they were both naked AND flying (as touching your underwear or the ground would discharge the spell), which is patently ridiculous.

I'm not sure thatis accurate, either. In fact, I know in 3.5 it was not.

When it refers to Touch Spells and "touching" anything, it specifically means the hand holding the charge touching something, including holding a weapon or shield (or at least it was spelled out that way in 3.5). The Gauntlet and Spiked Gauntlet both count as weapons.

Don't get me wrong, I have house ruled this since 3.0, but it was a house rule. Otherwise you could simply cast Harm each morning and walk around with your weapon swinging around all day until things start turning bad and then basically open up with a "quickened" harm.

Side Note, there is nothing wrong with bypassing this completely and simply having the Spiked Gauntlet on the hand holding the crossbow, with the "casting" hand completely free. . . :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Lesser Restoration only restores some ability score damage, not automatically all of it.

Restoration can restore only 1 permanent negative level per week (i.e. a negative level you failed the Fort save on). Ouch!

Using Defender on a spiked gauntlet means you'd have to be wielding it during your action. If you are shooting a Crossbow or casting a spell, you are not considered wielding it actively, and thus no Defender bonus. Defender effects are part of melee weapons, not missile or magical effects...you have to start the effect by being in melee mode. Thus, no bonus on off-turn attacks, because you didn't activate it on your own turn.

Ranged Attack spells never have Reflex saves. Ranged spells that are AoE's have Reflex saves.

Ranger Favored Enemy now adds to TH as well as Dmg rolls.

Rangers can't be tracked on any of their favored terrains.

Pretty sure the guy with the SA damage not getting through DR is correct. The primary damage has to punch DR before the SA dmg can pile on. It's considered supplemental damage. If someone can find proof either way, that would be great, but the DR note with poison/extra effects is weighted against SA damage...

==Aelryinth


Cool thread...making a note.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:
Using Defender on a spiked gauntlet means you'd have to be wielding it during your action. If you are shooting a Crossbow or casting a spell, you are not considered wielding it actively, and thus no Defender bonus. Defender effects are part of melee weapons, not missile or magical effects...you have to start the effect by being in melee mode. Thus, no bonus on off-turn attacks, because you didn't activate it on your own turn.

Balderdash! You don't have to attack with a weapon in order to be wielding it. Furthermore, there is nothing in the rules that definitively states when you are or are not considered to be in "wielding mode."

You may well be right in the end, I just don't think you really have any rules evidence to back it up.

(If you try, please do so in another thread, this one is too cool to threadjack.)

Shadow Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Restoration can restore only 1 permanent negative level per week (i.e. a negative level you failed the Fort save on). Ouch!

In PF, monsters don't deal out Permanent Negative Levels (normally). These are from things like Raise Dead. I might be wrong about this, as my groups avoid this anyway (it's not fun), but I'm pretty certain that only things like Raise Dead give Permanent Level Drain.

Aelryinth wrote:
Using Defender on a spiked gauntlet means you'd have to be wielding it during your action. If you are shooting a Crossbow or casting a spell, you are not considered wielding it actively, and thus no Defender bonus. Defender effects are part of melee weapons, not missile or magical effects...you have to start the effect by being in melee mode. Thus, no bonus on off-turn attacks, because you didn't activate it on your own turn.

Actually, no you don't. Good tactics are to enchant one side of a staff that you don't attack with, a shield (as a weapon), a gauntlet, brass knuckles, or for creatures with multiple limbs, many minor weapons as it specifically stcks with all other bonuses). You don't actualy need to attack with the weapon, though it does need to be equiped. For the gauntlet, shield, and knuckles, you can have them equiped and attack with other weapons though, which makes it work nicely.

Aelryinth wrote:

Pretty sure the guy with the SA damage not getting through DR is correct. The primary damage has to punch DR before the SA dmg can pile on. It's considered supplemental damage. If someone can find proof either way, that would be great, but the DR note with poison/extra effects is weighted against SA damage...

==Aelryinth

Th reason I am, so sure goes way back to the release of the Core Rulebook, and one of the Devs was talking about how Sneak Attack worked with spells verses things with resistance and immunity/vulnerability. But I have absolutely no idea where to even begin looking for this. I want to say the example they used to explain it was a Rogue Sneak Attacking a Rakshasa. Essentually, the extra damage from sneak attack is contingient on the attack hitting, not on it doing damage.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Beckett wrote:
Actually, no you don't. Good tactics are to enchant one side of a staff that you don't attack with, a shield (as a weapon), a gauntlet, brass knuckles, or for creatures with multiple limbs, many minor weapons as it specifically stcks with all other bonuses). You don't actualy need to attack with the weapon, though it does need to be equiped. For the gauntlet, shield, and knuckles, you can have them equiped and attack with other weapons though, which makes it work nicely.

I am THE Ravingdork, infamous for my online munchkiness on these here boards, and even I don't think stacking multiple defending weapons was the developers' intent.


Dotted.

Shadow Lodge

If I remember correctly, Defending first appeared in Magic of Faurun (3.0), and you set the bonus indefinetly until you changed it, as oppossed to needing to set it as a free action each round. So I have no idea what the Devs intent was, but it wasn't Paizo.

That being said, it does include the activation (a free action). It is strange in that it has an ability not related directly to it's attacking or damage, so it really is a unique case.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
Beckett wrote:
Actually, no you don't. Good tactics are to enchant one side of a staff that you don't attack with, a shield (as a weapon), a gauntlet, brass knuckles, or for creatures with multiple limbs, many minor weapons as it specifically stcks with all other bonuses). You don't actualy need to attack with the weapon, though it does need to be equiped. For the gauntlet, shield, and knuckles, you can have them equiped and attack with other weapons though, which makes it work nicely.
I am THE Ravingdork, infamous for my online munchkiness on these here boards, and even I don't think that was the developer's intent.

Aye, you have to be actively wielding it in a Melee mode before you can allocate the Defender bonuses. No, you don't actually have to attack with it, but you have to declare the attack action and do nothing else. If you instead use a bow, or a spell, you aren't wielding the Defender item as the weapon, and it can't defend (now, magus actions which combine spellcasting and attacking could work).

This is why it doesn't work with Armor Spikes and the like, unless you declare them active on your turn and get TWF penalties for having two weapons readied. The weapon has to be actively wielded. Having a weapon, buckler, spiked gauntlets and spiked armor, adn trying to get the bonus from all of them would entail four weapons readied at once, which I'm not sure you can do.

The 'other side' of a staff doesn't work, unless you actually attack with it, or take the TWF penalties to go with it to show you are actively wielded it (no different then having it separate).

Oddly enough, a Shield will work, because it's being actively wielded whenever you strap it on, even if you don't attack with it. I guess wielded for defense works for Defenders. Hence Uber Shields.

There's also no support for Defender bonuses stacking with other Defender bonuses. The rules say that identical bonuses don't stack, and there's no exceptions cited for Defender bonuses the way they are for Circumstance and Dodge bonuses.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Beckett wrote:

If I remember correctly, Defending first appeared in Magic of Faurun (3.0), and you set the bonus indefinetly until you changed it, as oppossed to needing to set it as a free action each round. So I have no idea what the Devs intent was, but it wasn't Paizo.

That being said, it does include the activation (a free action). It is strange in that it has an ability not related directly to it's attacking or damage, so it really is a unique case.

Defending is a core 3.0 enchantment. It comes straight out of the Defender swords of 1E.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

This is why it doesn't work with Armor Spikes and the like, unless you declare them active on your turn and get TWF penalties for having two weapons readied. The weapon has to be actively wielded.

...

The 'other side' of a staff doesn't work, unless you actually attack with it, or take the TWF penalties to go with it to show you are actively wielded it (no different then having it separate).

Now you're just making stuff up. It says nothing of the sort in the rules.

Only attacking with weapons incurs TWF penalties. Simply wielding them does nothing like you describe.

Andoran

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Frequently Unknown Rules (through post 222)
Frequently unknown rules

including summary from:

Things you might have missed

Change from SRD/D&D to Pathfinder

1. Bardic abilities no longer based on Perform skill other than Countersong and Distraction.
2. Many Shot and Rapid Shot can now be used together.
3. Spiked chain no longer has reach.
4. Anything that improves attack rolls improves CMB, including weapon feats if using weapon for the special attack.
5. Paladin double of smite against some creatures is on first attack only.
6. Sneak attack and critical damage applies to many additional creatures, including undead and constructs.
7. Magic item creation no longer uses XP.
8. Characters can draw a weapon during a charge, but can only charge a single move distance.
9. Magic item creation vastly changed.
10. Dodge applies to all opponents, not just one specified opponent.
11. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm split into a feat tree (Improved and Greater)
12. Grapple works differently. Some highlights: grapplers no longer share space. Ranged attacks into a grapple no longer risk hitting the wrong target. Grappled creatures threaten surrounding squares and can attack into them (at –2 to hit). Arguably, Grappled creatures no longer lose DEX bonus to AC vs foes outside the grapple (see note 1, table 8-6, page 195 for contrary opinion).
13. Weapon enhancement bonus (the plus portion, not the cost equivalent) overcomes various DR at different DR than just magic
14. Elves sleep, but are still immune to magical sleep.
15. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
16. Many save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have re-saves or more limited effects.
17. Cantrips are at-will.
18. Indentification of magic items changed significantly (see detect magic, identify, Spellcraft, and Perception)
19. Power Attack, Cleave, and Greater Cleave all different.
19.a. Combat Expertise different, too.
20. Clerics don’t get heavy armor proficiency, get proficiency with deities favored weapon, and need a feat to turn undead.
21. Fighters can retrain bonus feats.
22. Scrolls take a standard action, but longer if the spell contained has a longer casting time. (This may have been added in D&D add-on material as well, such as Rules Compendium).
23. Feats at every odd level instead of 1, 3, 6, 9, etc.
24. Track is no longer a feat
25. Stabilization and death changed.
26. Mithral armor now requires proficiency in original type of armor, not just resulting armor.
27. Monk flurry of blows different.
28. Poison rules incorporated into affliction and changed significatly; poison tougher all around.
29. Stealth/Perception changed in multiple ways from multiple skill set in SRD.
30. Barbarians rage x rounds/day instead of x times/day
31. Gate spell changed from 2x level to 1x CL in terms of HD called/controlled.
32. Natural attacks changed. Creature can have multiple primary attacks.
33. Bardic Knowledge is changed. Bards get bonus to knowledge checks and can use untrained.
34. Regeneration is simpler. See universal monster rule for regeneration.
35. Alchemical items no longer require CL1 for some items.
36. Class HD changes in many areas.
37. Templates changed in many ways.
38. Far Shot halves range penalty instead of increasing range.
39. Mounted Combat now uses immediate action rather than 1/round language.
40. Blind creatures use acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else prone. Cannot run or charge.
41. Incorporeal creatures take 50% of damage of effective attacks instead of only being affected for the full amount 50% of the time.
42. Uncanny Dodge changed: character with uncanny dodge is not flat-footed.
43. Initiative is rolled prior to the start of surprise round for all combatants. In SRD/D&D, surprised characters do not roll initiative until after the surprise round is over.
44. Wizard specialists can now take spells from their opposed schools, but such spells cost two slots to prepare. All wizards, whether specialist or not, gain abilities at levels based upon their specialty.
45. Wizards can opt to have a bonded object instead of a familiar. A bonded object provides various benefits for use and penalties if unavailable.
46. Detect (alignment) spells work differently. They do not detect alignment auras at low hit dice, and can register based upon intentions rather than actual alignment or deeds.
47. If damage is less due to strength penalties such that damage would be less than 1, the damage in PF is 1 point of non-lethal. In SRD/D&D, the damage is reduced to 1 point of lethal.
48. Caster level for ranger and paladins is class level –3 instead of class level/2.
49. Ranger favored enemy bonus applies to attack rolls as well as damage.
50. 50. Harm spell explicitly cannot reduce hit points below 1, whether the save is made or not.

Always like this, but frequently misplayed or not known previously
1. Inspire courage is free action to continue once having started.
2. Animal companions can be dismissed at will and replaced with 24 hours; note that new companion requires training other than bonus feats.
3. Ranged attacks suffer from cover from objects, enemies, or allies. Allies often overlooked. Applies to reach weapons as well.
4. Weapons and armor must have +1 enhancement prior to gaining additional enchantments.
5. Readying an action is a standard action. One can move first, and then ready. The readied action itself can be a standard, move, free, or swift action. (Note: could not explicitly be swift in SRD 3.5; swift was not in the SRD.) Can include 5’ step as part of the readied action if no other movement in either the readied action or prior to the readied action during regular turn.
6. Lesser Restoration is a three round casting time. Usually, this means it isn’t used during combat. Potion of lesser restoration is good for in combat, tho.
7. Immunity to cold/fire gives vulnerability to opposite. (Developers have indicated future change for this)
8. Elementals are immune to flanking and critical hits.
9. Enlarge person has a 1 round casting time.
10. Sneak attack and other precision damage applies to every attack in a round, not just once per round.
11. Characters who use the run action lose Dex bonus to AC, and thus are subject to sneak attack.
12. Dimensional anchor has no saving throw, just spell resistance.
13. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
14. Creatures can often overcome the DR that is needed to hit them (magic, epic, etc.)
15. Characters and creatures can charge a single move distance as a standard action if limited to a single action, such as during a surprise round. This doesn’t mean you can opt to only charge as a standard action if you have a full round of actions available.
16. Coup de grace can be performed against a creature with total concealment, such as invisibility, by using two full round actions.
17. Ride-by Attack is still a mess.
18. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect.
19. Harm… (moved to item 50 of things that have changed)
20. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
21. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
22. Grease can be used to disarm.
23. Fear effects stack or escalate; characters can become more fearful.
24. Withdraw action can be double move. AoO only prevented from first square left.
25. Auto-success on a 20 and Auto Fail on a 1 are not universal to all rolls. They apply only when called out. Typical examples are attack rolls and saving throws. The following are not subject to auto-success/failure: Skill checks, caster level checks, concentration checks.
26. Take 10 on skill check can be used when not in immediate danger or distracted. Do not confuse with Take 20’s restriction from use if there is a negative consequence.
27. Take 20 cannot be used if there is a negative result for failure. Do not over-generalize to apply this to Take 10.
28. You cannot take AoOs when flat-footed (usually in surprise round or before you have acted in first round) unless you have Combat Reflexes or a similar ability.
29. Using a wand with a casting time longer than a standard action takes that long to activate. A wand of summon monster I takes 1 round and a wand of lesser restoration takes 3 rounds. But, you have to know to look under the activation section at the start of the wand section to know this.
30. A character can use a wand with a spell on his class list, even if he can’t cast spells yet. For example, a 3rd level paladin can use a wand of cure light wounds.

It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it confused

1. Reach weapons for small and medium creatures have a reach of 10 feet. Despite a diagram that says otherwise, they can still attack two squares on a diagonal.
2. Double weapons are two-handed weapons with special properties regarding two-handed fighting. If a double weapon is used in one hand, only one end can be used. The missing text that clarifies things is that using a two-handed weapon with one hand only happens if it is sized smaller than you or you have an additional rules resource to permit it.

It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it clear

1. Wizards with prestige classes only get 2 free spells when gaining a level of wizard, not when gaining a level of the prestige class.
2. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. (In 3.5, this was subject to variance.)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ravingdork wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

This is why it doesn't work with Armor Spikes and the like, unless you declare them active on your turn and get TWF penalties for having two weapons readied. The weapon has to be actively wielded.

...

The 'other side' of a staff doesn't work, unless you actually attack with it, or take the TWF penalties to go with it to show you are actively wielded it (no different then having it separate).

Now you're just making stuff up. It says nothing of the sort in the rules.

Only attacking with weapons incurs TWF penalties. Simply wielding them does nothing like you describe.

You're equating 'wielding' with 'holding on to'. that was struck down by Paizo, too.

To be wielding a weapon you have to be actively employing it or prepared to use it, and can take no other actions that would interfere with it. You aren't 'wielding' a greatsword if you cast a spell that round, even if the point is grounded and you're holding onto it and can quickdraw it into position on the off round.

Likewise, you're not wielding a staff for attack when you cast a spell out of it. No defender bonus. The attack action is the centerpoint of using Defender, even if you don't actually attack anything with it.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

You're equating 'wielding' with 'holding on to'. that was struck down by Paizo, too.

To be wielding a weapon you have to be actively employing it or prepared to use it, and can take no other actions that would interfere with it. You aren't 'wielding' a greatsword if you cast a spell that round, even if the point is grounded and you're holding onto it and can quickdraw it into position on the off round.

Likewise, you're not wielding a staff for attack when you cast a spell out of it. No defender bonus. The attack action is the centerpoint of using Defender, even if you don't actually attack anything with it.

==Aelryinth

Actually I'm not equating anything. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

If it works like you describe, how do you explain my ability to, after casting a spell, still make an attack of opportunity with my longsword, armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, or similar weapon?

By your interpretation, since I cast a spell, I'm not "wielding" any of these weapons and, as such, cannot attack with any of them.

Simply put: I disagree with your interpretation.

Andoran

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I suppose its easy for a simple refutation to turn into a debate-as-threadjack. How about we agree to take stuff that is unclear to a side thread and leave this thread for the simple "oooh, did you know...." stuff.

Shadow Lodge

Fine by me. That wasn't really my intition :)

Shadow Lodge

Howie23 wrote:
13. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.

You may also use the fllowing feats for Touch attack or Ranged Attack spells: Weapon Focus (Touch or Ray), Weapon Finese, Weapon Specialization (Touch or Ray), Improved Critical (Touch or Ray), and other similar Feats. Essentually, they are treated as either a ranged "weapon" or as a light "weapon".

Howie23 wrote:
19. Harm….does what?

In 3E, Harm could kill you on a Failed Save. Its only if the target made the save that the spell specifically couldn't kill you. In PF, that is no longer true.

CHanged from D&D to PF
50.) Sunder is now viable and effective without completely destroying treasure. :) Also, minor magic like Mending and Make Whole have more function due to this.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

You're equating 'wielding' with 'holding on to'. that was struck down by Paizo, too.

To be wielding a weapon you have to be actively employing it or prepared to use it, and can take no other actions that would interfere with it. You aren't 'wielding' a greatsword if you cast a spell that round, even if the point is grounded and you're holding onto it and can quickdraw it into position on the off round.

Likewise, you're not wielding a staff for attack when you cast a spell out of it. No defender bonus. The attack action is the centerpoint of using Defender, even if you don't actually attack anything with it.

==Aelryinth

Actually I'm not equating anything. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

If it works like you describe, how do you explain my ability to, after casting a spell, still make an attack of opportunity with my longsword, armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, or similar weapon?

By your interpretation, since I cast a spell, I'm not "wielding" any of these weapons and, as such, cannot attack with any of them.

Simply put: I disagree with your interpretation.

Because having a weapon ready isn't the same thing as actually having wielded it the last round?

It's also the same reason you can Quick Draw and hit something after you cast a spell.

Defender has to be allocated on your turn, during an attack action it's being wielded for.

Sorry bout the threadjack.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

To Aelryinth about Defending

Spoiler:
Please reread the weapon quality. It specifically says that it needs activated at the very begining of your turn before you do any attacks. Under Activation of magic items it also says that normally weapons are activated by swinging them, but some have specific activations. Defending does have a specific activation (a free action), which must be done before it can be used to attack.

You are concidered "weilding" a weapon if you can threaten with it. A spellcaster that casts a spell is threatening with their weapon the rest of te round before and after the spell is cast. Medium and Heavy Armor automatically comes with Gauntlets, and as long as you have them equiped, you are threatening with them. Same thing with Spiked Armor.

It's similar to Fighting Defensively. You don't actually need to attack, (and if you do the Total Defense option, can't in fact), to gain the bonus. But those penulties do count for attacks you didn't anticipate, such as AoO's after your turn.

That being said, I am not saying it isn't a bit cheesey, but it also isn't that great an option, usually. Defending, especially for multiple Defending weapons or alternates like the staff or shield are way to expensive to be all that. 8,000+ GP for a single +1 to AC 18,000+ GP for a +2 AC.


You can wear magic armor and custom bracers at the same time. Sure, the armor bonuses don't stack but the special abilities are in effect from both. So you can have Ghost Touch armor and Heavy Fortification bracers along with an Animated Arrow Catching and Arrow Deflecting shield.

Druids and wizards can cast spells that would not normally be able to target their pets on their pets. So Enlarge Person is a viable spell for a wizard to cast on his familiar.

Andoran

Beckett wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
19. Harm….does what?
In 3E, Harm could kill you on a Failed Save. Its only if the target made the save that the spell specifically couldn't kill you. In PF, that is no longer true.

Ah, gotcha. Edited above.

And, oddly, this.....

Beckett wrote:

CHanged from D&D to PF

50.) Sunder is now viable and effective without completely destroying treasure. :) Also, minor magic like Mending and Make Whole have more function due to this.

only showed up for me when I went to reply to you. :)


Everyone looks at the classes to see how they are balanced. No one remembers that casting defensively is much harder now, and that adjusts the magic/melee line towards melee.

Shadow Lodge

Howie23 wrote:
Beckett wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
19. Harm….does what?
In 3E, Harm could kill you on a Failed Save. Its only if the target made the save that the spell specifically couldn't kill you. In PF, that is no longer true.

Ah, gotcha. Edited above.

And, oddly, this.....

Beckett wrote:

CHanged from D&D to PF

50.) Sunder is now viable and effective without completely destroying treasure. :) Also, minor magic like Mending and Make Whole have more function due to this.

only showed up for me when I went to reply to you. :)

I noticed a misspelling and was editing it. . . :)

There was also a note above that too. #13

Shadow Lodge

rkraus2 wrote:
Everyone looks at the classes to see how they are balanced. No one remembers that casting defensively is much harder now, and that adjusts the magic/melee line towards melee.

There are a lot of different views and meanings of balance, and sometimes people forget that their opinions are not facts or are based a lot on thier playstyle. Though I don't always agree with it, I do prefer Paizo's style of listening to complaints and attempting fixes than some other games and past versions of D&D.

Andoran

Beckett wrote:

I noticed a misspelling and was editing it. . . :)

There was also a note above that too. #13

Weird. Got the harm, sunder, and weapon feats for spells stuff. Some edited in in last update, others in file for next update.

Shadow Lodge

To Howie23

Spoiler:
When you reply to long posts, it cuts off stuff, so I had to copy/paste, reply, hit back, copy/past more, and the repost (edit). It was to make it easier to see the specific parts. If you try to respond to Aelryinth's last post, you will see what I mean. You can just cancel it so you don't actually respond, though. :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Was true in 3.5, although PF now treats it as a swift action:

You can in fact Quicken a spell with a 1 round casting time.

The Quicken feat states you can cast a spell as a swift action as long as the spell does not take longer than a full round action to cast.

A spell with a 1 round casting time "is a full round action" that goes off at the beginning of your next turn.

The wording is just a little vague, and you have to look at the Quicken Feat and the discussion of casting times to put it together, but there it is.

So, need a flanker before you stabbity to get sneak attack? Quicken-summon a critter behind your foe! Sure, you have to be a 9th level wizard/1st level rogue to pull it off, but... yeah!

Osirion RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

You can wear magic armor and custom bracers at the same time. Sure, the armor bonuses don't stack but the special abilities are in effect from both. So you can have Ghost Touch armor and Heavy Fortification bracers along with an Animated Arrow Catching and Arrow Deflecting shield.

Druids and wizards can cast spells that would not normally be able to target their pets on their pets. So Enlarge Person is a viable spell for a wizard to cast on his familiar.

I thought this was true as well. But I found out just recently that the description of Bracers of Armor say otherwise:

bracers of armor wrote:
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.


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raidou wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:

You can wear magic armor and custom bracers at the same time. Sure, the armor bonuses don't stack but the special abilities are in effect from both. So you can have Ghost Touch armor and Heavy Fortification bracers along with an Animated Arrow Catching and Arrow Deflecting shield.

Druids and wizards can cast spells that would not normally be able to target their pets on their pets. So Enlarge Person is a viable spell for a wizard to cast on his familiar.

I thought this was true as well. But I found out just recently that the description of Bracers of Armor say otherwise:

bracers of armor wrote:
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

I really need to take some more time reading.


I can't dot this thread fast enough. That "soft cover" rule, in particular, is going to have my player's archer inquisitor peeing himself. And I learned about the "single charge in surprise round" rule, and the "sneak attack applies multiple times rule" to boot! I'll keep my eye on this topic for sure.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To be fair, I've been playing without soft cover since I first read it way back when, and have had no issues. I don't like it thematically, and no such rule applies to adjacent enemies when you have a sword- or even intervening enemies when you have a polearm.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
cfalcon wrote:
To be fair, I've been playing without soft cover since I first read it way back when, and have had no issues. I don't like it thematically, and no such rule applies to adjacent enemies when you have a sword- or even intervening enemies when you have a polearm.

Keep in mind that this rule is there to balance archery, i don't know if this rule was in 3.5 or not but in PF (where archery got a major boost) is very needed, in my opinion at least.

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rule was also in 3.5, which is when I started ignoring it. Or maybe 3.0, it's been awhile.

I consider it a silly rule because of stuff like: There's 50 orcs. You pick one. The other gives it cover. But, you don't care what orc you hit! And it's not like you assign two spots on the die wherein you roll versus the other orc, or any orc, or your friend if he's close. It just seems incomplete.

As for balancing archery- I don't really think so. I think it's in there to help simulate reality, but I don't think it does a great job of that, especially because:

1)- Characters are mobile in their square. There's no facing, you can strike in all directions alternately, etc.
2)- This disadvantage is modeled by the -4 for "firing into melee".
3)- No other similar thing has such "soft cover". "I hide behind this guy" doesn't let you not get targetted by a spell, avoid a fireball, a sword swing, a ranseur, or even like a whip or silly 3.5 spiked chain.

I don't believe it's in place to balance archery, especially how easy it becomes to avoid this- you can take a step out and usually not sweat it, and once you can climb, fly, or position yourself in the Z direction it's a non-issue. Additionally, it's a small penalty. It really seems like it's meant to simulate, and IMO it's not the best way to do that.


cfalcon wrote:

The rule was also in 3.5, which is when I started ignoring it. Or maybe 3.0, it's been awhile.

I consider it a silly rule because of stuff like: There's 50 orcs. You pick one. The other gives it cover. But, you don't care what orc you hit! And it's not like you assign two spots on the die wherein you roll versus the other orc, or any orc, or your friend if he's close. It just seems incomplete.

As for balancing archery- I don't really think so. I think it's in there to help simulate reality, but I don't think it does a great job of that, especially because:

1)- Characters are mobile in their square. There's no facing, you can strike in all directions alternately, etc.
2)- This disadvantage is modeled by the -4 for "firing into melee".
3)- No other similar thing has such "soft cover". "I hide behind this guy" doesn't let you not get targetted by a spell, avoid a fireball, a sword swing, a ranseur, or even like a whip or silly 3.5 spiked chain.

I don't believe it's in place to balance archery, especially how easy it becomes to avoid this- you can take a step out and usually not sweat it, and once you can climb, fly, or position yourself in the Z direction it's a non-issue. Additionally, it's a small penalty. It really seems like it's meant to simulate, and IMO it's not the best way to do that.

It is not that small when combines with the penalty for firing into melee, and it may also stop the archer from using rapid shot or deadly aim.

1. What does that have to do with cover?
2. That is different. The -4 for firing into melee represents you trying to make sure you don't hit your body. The +4 soft cover AC bonus is there to not hit anything between yourself and the target.
3.Spells that target don't work off of AC so there is no way for cover to affect them. You don't aim the spell unless it calls for an attack roll. You just choose a target creature.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
1. What does that have to do with cover?

Cover is meant to indicate something that you are, accidentally or on purpose, hiding behind. Much as someone engaged is a swordfight isn't wildly hacking their buddies, it should be assumed that there are some openings in time during which you can fire at the target and not hit his less important ally in the face.

Quote:
2. That is different. The -4 for firing into melee represents you trying to make sure you don't hit your body. The +4 soft cover AC bonus is there to not hit anything between yourself and the target.

Which might, in fact, be your buddy, so he's counting twice. The person only counts for archery, somehow- he's not there when targetting a spell, or doing anything else. Additionally, you don't actually have a chance to hit this person (be it your friend on an enemy), even if you'd be totally fine with that (line of orcs, for instance).

Quote:
3.Spells that target don't work off of AC so there is no way for cover to affect them. You don't aim the spell unless it calls for an attack roll. You just choose a target creature.

Yes, of course. But the point is you still need line of sight for most spells, and line of effect, and this is the same logic being used to deny the archer his attack- that sometimes, the person in front of him might block line of sight, or line of effect. Again, it's intended to be a nod to reality, but it's double dipping a penalty on archery, and it mysteriously doesn't apply to anything else you would rationally think that it would.


cfalcon wrote:


Cover is meant to indicate something that you are, accidentally or on purpose, hiding behind. Much as someone engaged is a swordfight isn't wildly hacking their buddies, it should be assumed that there are some openings in time during which you can fire at the target and not hit his less important ally in the face.

You have to take at least one shot within a 6 second time period, sometimes more. In order to do that you would have to predict movements ahead of time. With people in combat those openings won't be really staying open long enough for you to line a shot up.

Quote:


Which might, in fact, be your buddy, so he's counting twice. The person only counts for archery, somehow- he's not there when targetting a spell, or doing anything else. Additionally, you don't actually have a chance to hit this person (be it your friend on an enemy), even if you'd be totally fine with that (line of orcs, for instance).

Well if he is directly in the way there should be a bigger penalty.

Quote:


Yes, of course. But the point is you still need line of sight for most spells, and line of effect, and this is the same logic being used to deny the archer his attack- that sometimes, the person in front of him might block line of sight, or line of effect. Again, it's intended to be a nod to reality, but it's double dipping a penalty on archery, and it mysteriously doesn't apply to anything else you would rationally think that it would.

With physical weapons they fly through the air and land hopefully at the same spot the enemy is. With magic you just choose who you want to affect and it happens. There is no chance to choose the wrong person or space. If magic used a similar targetting system as weapons I would agree. People only provide soft cover which is the reason the shot is even possible. It takes actual cover to block line of affect such as from a tower shield.

PS:It does apply to reach weapons also, not the swinging into melee, but the soft cover rule.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cfalcon wrote:
To be fair, I've been playing without soft cover since I first read it way back when, and have had no issues. I don't like it thematically, and no such rule applies to adjacent enemies when you have a sword- or even intervening enemies when you have a polearm.

Actually it does apply to intervening enemies when you have a polearm. Reach-melee attacks are considered ranged attacks for the purpose of determining cover (including soft cover from your ally standing infront of you).

Cheliax

Wild Shape or Alter Self protect against Baleful Polymorph.
Penalties due to ability damage are based on the ability damage taken, not on decreased ability scores. One point of ability damage doesn't do anything.
Paladins can create cheap wands of lesser restoration.
There are no black or white medium sized dragonhide breastplates and fullplates (they included a rather stupid sage advice in the core rules).
You lose a buckler's shield bonus when firing a bow.


Alter Self changed a lot:

Spoiler:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.

So it's a valible buff spell now, alter self into a dwarf and you get +2 str and darkvision for 1min/lvl

Cheliax

Tryn wrote:


So it's a valible buff spell now, alter self into a dwarf and you get +2 str and darkvision for 1min/lvl

Orcs or Hobgoblins are better since they don't reduce your speed.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jadeite wrote:
Tryn wrote:


So it's a valible buff spell now, alter self into a dwarf and you get +2 str and darkvision for 1min/lvl
Orcs or Hobgoblins are better since they don't reduce your speed.

I like troglydyte for +2 str, darkvision and 3 natural attacks.

Cheliax

dot

Andoran

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The polearm cover rule had actually escaped me. I won't change how I run thins, but that makes the rule regarding archery less offensive. I still have other issues with it.


Name Violation wrote:
dot

Ditto.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LoreKeeper wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
To be fair, I've been playing without soft cover since I first read it way back when, and have had no issues. I don't like it thematically, and no such rule applies to adjacent enemies when you have a sword- or even intervening enemies when you have a polearm.

Actually it does apply to intervening enemies when you have a polearm. Reach-melee attacks are considered ranged attacks for the purpose of determining cover (including soft cover from your ally standing infront of you).

This is one of the reasons I gert a little twitchy about optimization suggestions that involve making a "second-line polearm" meleeist - because you're basically volunteering to take a -4 penalty on every attack you make.


cfalcon wrote:

The rule was also in 3.5, which is when I started ignoring it. Or maybe 3.0, it's been awhile.

I consider it a silly rule because of stuff like: There's 50 orcs. You pick one. The other gives it cover. But, you don't care what orc you hit! And it's not like you assign two spots on the die wherein you roll versus the other orc, or any orc, or your friend if he's close. It just seems incomplete.

As for balancing archery- I don't really think so. I think it's in there to help simulate reality, but I don't think it does a great job of that, especially because:

1)- Characters are mobile in their square. There's no facing, you can strike in all directions alternately, etc.
2)- This disadvantage is modeled by the -4 for "firing into melee".
3)- No other similar thing has such "soft cover". "I hide behind this guy" doesn't let you not get targetted by a spell, avoid a fireball, a sword swing, a ranseur, or even like a whip or silly 3.5 spiked chain.

I don't believe it's in place to balance archery, especially how easy it becomes to avoid this- you can take a step out and usually not sweat it, and once you can climb, fly, or position yourself in the Z direction it's a non-issue. Additionally, it's a small penalty. It really seems like it's meant to simulate, and IMO it's not the best way to do that.

the problem with your Orc example is, by using it it makes the Orc you do specifically want to easier to hit which makes no sense. if you don't care which Orc you want to hit you would pick the nearest one with no cover not the Orc spell caster I'n the middle.

essentially the guy I'n the middle shouldn't be easier to hit because you don't care if the six orcs between you get hit.


Matthew Winn wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Matthew Winn wrote:
Aldin wrote:
Let's add: Identify just gives a bonus to Spellcraft checks

More importantly, it can be used on more than one item at a time. I don't remember if that was a 3.5 change, but casting it on every single item in 3.0 was horrible.

No, it was single use in 3.5. Wizards must have caused clams to go extinct from the excessive use of 100gp pearls that had to be expended in identifying magic items. You had to get to Analyze Dwomer or something before you could batch identify things. And that ends up being cheaper because it only has a focus!

I remember playing the Temple of Elemental Evil on PC and having to go on murder sprees in the wild just to get enough $$ to identify my hoard. It was absolutely loony frakdonkulous.

You should get craft Wand in the Video game: you pay only for initial wand cost (750 gp) not each time you use wand. Little glitch, but awesome. Another way to makje money is increase appraise check.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jadeite wrote:
There are no black or white medium sized dragonhide breastplates and fullplates (they included a rather stupid sage advice in the core rules).

Sure there are, you just need to kill more than one dragon to get the appropriate amount of scales.

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