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Is crafting magic items too easy, by RAW?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Robb Smith wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
But if the GM enforces crafting times, 40 to 100 days is a long time to not be out gaining XP. A lot can happen in 2-3 months.

If you do not give the PCs adequate downtime to pursue this sort of thing, then you are denying them one of their biggest resources, a feat, and it is not fair to that character.

"Thank you for saving the world.... BUT WAIT!" and "A CHALLENGER APPEARS!" are two of the absolute most annoying roleplaying game tropes of all time. The world does not need saving every 5 and a half minutes, and if it does, then I want better pay and more benefits or I'm going to go on the shortest and most effective strike in the history of the multiverse.

That's one of the risks you take when taking the Craft feats. If they were a class feature then I could see you trying to fit them in as much as possible but they are not, they are feats and they should be discussed before the game starts, it's no different than Leadership. If the DM says he doesn't know if there will be time for you to use those feats and you take them anyway then that's your fault. If you don't go to your DM and tell him you took Craft feats and you think you can just pop in in the middle of a game and declare that you are going crafting and the DM says no there isn't time then that's your fault for assuming.

Craft feats shouldn't be treated like other feats. They are very powerful feats that can break the game if they are not kept in check. You can't expect to use the Craft feats like your would say Dodge or Weapon Focus.


Kthulhu wrote:

The thing is, since a fairly low level commoner or expert with minimal feat investement can make +1 weapons, they shouldn't really cost as much as they do. It's essentially a comodity that can be created by anyone who puts minimal effort into it...but the "suggested price" doesn't reflect that at all.

Essentially, the crafting system is completely f---ed up. This is not new to PF...the crafting system has been f---ed up ever since they introduced the concept to the game (although I have to say that having standardized "recipes" in 3.X/PFRPG make the situation worse). Hell, the crafting system can't even handle mundane stuff without revealing just how ridiculous it is.

Its hardly minimal feat investment, they have to be 5th level to get all the feats they need, and there is nothing that lowers the creation cost below 45% of list price (assuming commoners can take traits). That market force alone mandates that weapons are generally out of a commoner's realistic ability to own.

Silver Crusade

Nigrescence wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'm going to tackle the whole thing at once: I write the adventures my players come to enjoy. I have had roughly the same players for more than a decade. They are well aware of my style of GM. I give them a lot of freedom but there is no way that I'm going to let a power-hungry player craft to his heart's content to effectively double his, and the rest of the party's wealth. If they want their characters to take a couple of years off for crafting, then I'm going to run a different campaign. Remember that a +10 weapon for the fighter (+4 sword and +6 extras, highest DC is 18) will take 200 days to craft. Headband of Mental Superiority (DC 21) will take 144 days. That's only two items both are affordable by level 12 characters. I'm not going to allow for that to happen. Both are most likely within reach for a level 12 crafter (Int 20 + 12 Ranks + Skill Focus = +23).

Yes, it's perfectly within the possibility for an INT-based, Skill Focused character, but you're assuming the absolutely most favorable conditions for this single task. Not all crafters are the optimum. You suffer from the same debilitating issue that everyone who criticizes the crafting system has. They forget that there's more than one type of character who might want to do crafting. Additionally, if the players want to sink almost all of their gold into one item at the earliest possible level, let them. They'll soon realize that it wasn't worth it, and you won't even have to TRY to make them regret it.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
If you are out adventuring, then you are not in town resting. You may still have some adventuring to do, but you are not out doing it. You can then spend more time per day crafting. It is exactly what the rule says.

There are adventures to be had in town, as well. Some adventures specifically take place in towns.

You are still ignoring the part of the rules, which you ignored, that I re-quoted for you to re-read. When will you ever bother to read it if you don't read it after...

Rings of Sustenance, not even needing to sleep(if you are undead) or anything like that does not allow you to create a magic item any faster. You are still allowed a certain amount of time that you can work on that item per day. I think people tend to make a Ring of Sustenance more powerful than it really is. Some people think the ring allows a spellcaster to re-mem his spells more than once in a 24 hour period because the ring cuts down on their sleepy time and that's not true, the same goes for the crafting.

You really have to be careful with a Secure Shelter because creatures can still try and attack you while in it, and because the shelter has an Alarm spell built in the mental Alarm will keep you awake it a tiny or larger creature comes up to the shelter or touches it and of course the audible one is a bit loud. I know it says the mental one doesn't disturb your concentration but it does disturb your sleep. Also your DM can decide if the Shelter is adequate enough to allow you to gain that full 4 hours of work instead of 2 because technically you are still "out adventuring".


rat_ bastard wrote:
Its hardly minimal feat investment, they have to be 5th level to get all the feats they need, and there is nothing that lowers the creation cost below 45% of list price (assuming commoners can take traits). That market force alone mandates that weapons are generally out of a commoner's realistic ability to own.

Also depends completely on level. At fifth level an NPC could afford a magical weapon -- however it's more likely they'll have a 1k defensive item instead and a masterwork weapon.


Abraham spalding wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
Its hardly minimal feat investment, they have to be 5th level to get all the feats they need, and there is nothing that lowers the creation cost below 45% of list price (assuming commoners can take traits). That market force alone mandates that weapons are generally out of a commoner's realistic ability to own.
Also depends completely on level. At fifth level an NPC could afford a magical weapon -- however it's more likely they'll have a 1k defensive item instead and a masterwork weapon.

5th level npcs can afford magical weapons, they are also incredibly rare.

Silver Crusade

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
meabolex wrote:
Most GMs will try to balance the game around the WBL guidelines.

Where did you get that piece of information? I don't know any GM, including me, who cares about WBL.

And why should we? Say, for example, the WBL says 100k Gold is appropriate for level X. You have two wizards and one rogue in the party. One wizard will buy himself a mountain of scrolls, the other one will craft his own items. So what do you do - give the first wizard 100k, because the final value of his acquired items will be 100k, and give wizard 2 50k, because, hey, he will create items with a total value of 100k anyway? And the rogue, he will get 300k of loot - because he'll only be able to fence it in for 100k...

The only thing you can - and should - control is the total amount of money the party as a whole acquires.

I know one GM that might just consider what you said here, or at the very least not allow the wizard to create items before the game starts. In fact, if I recall I asked "Since I have Craft Alchemy can I buy alchemical items for half price at creation?" and he was like "No."

I would say "No" as well.

Where does it state that you get to use feats in order to create items at a cheaper price before the game starts? You are assumed to have your starting gold and that's it unless you are starting at a higher level.


rat_ bastard wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
Its hardly minimal feat investment, they have to be 5th level to get all the feats they need, and there is nothing that lowers the creation cost below 45% of list price (assuming commoners can take traits). That market force alone mandates that weapons are generally out of a commoner's realistic ability to own.
Also depends completely on level. At fifth level an NPC could afford a magical weapon -- however it's more likely they'll have a 1k defensive item instead and a masterwork weapon.
5th level npcs can afford magical weapons, they are also incredibly rare.

What are? Magical weapons or 5th level NPCs? Either way prove it.

The core assumptions that have been provided by Paizo has been that the average NPC falls in somewhere between 1~5, and that's strictly on an 'this is how we are doing things and it's not official' setting too.

There is nothing in core that suggests NPS are of any given level range or than between levels 1~20.


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I think the magic item creation RAW are laughably easy.

That being said, I just don't use them. And I tell people new to playing in my games that if crafting magic items is something you want to do, i'm probably not the right person for you to have as a GM.

I generally try to have a story behind all my items. When players do get to craft a magic item in my games, it usually involves a quest to find rare materials, and another one to find some smith capable of forging the raw materials into something magical.

Unfortunately, I feel like video games and mmo's in particular have made people expect magic items to fall out of every 3rd creature they kill. Given, some monstera have always had a chance at magical loot on their treasure tables, but it just feels more prevalent today than it used to.


Abraham spalding wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
Its hardly minimal feat investment, they have to be 5th level to get all the feats they need, and there is nothing that lowers the creation cost below 45% of list price (assuming commoners can take traits). That market force alone mandates that weapons are generally out of a commoner's realistic ability to own.
Also depends completely on level. At fifth level an NPC could afford a magical weapon -- however it's more likely they'll have a 1k defensive item instead and a masterwork weapon.

5th level commoners can afford magical weapons, 5th level commoners are also incredibly rare.


Actually, according to the Inner Sea Campaign Guide, the average commoner is level 1 to level 5. "Lieutenant" type NPCs are 6 to 10 and leaders are 11 to 15 with only legendary-type figures being above level 15.

So, the spread of magical items I would say are far from rare.

As to the ease of item creation, that has already been linked to in this thread and is supposed to be easy as long as you meet the item prerequisites.

The availability of crafting materials, tracking which item have been crafted and allowing a person to fully utilize the crafting feats (including letting a crafter exist above his/her WBL without the GM gimping future treasure rewards) should be moderated by the GM. Otherwise, you're just being a lazy GM. This opinion has been reinforced by developers and is one I embrace personally. Just because someone has the feat doesn't mean they have access to adamantine ore or whatever else is needed to craft a particular item.

Also, the WBL implications are self restricting. Sure, the crafter can have as much as twice the value of gear as someone else but to sell a magic item you only get ~50%. To buy materials for a new magic item requires 50% of its base cost to make. So, a 2k magic weapon can be sold for 1k. That 1k can either be made into another 2k magic item or you can purchase a 1k item at a store. There is not magical increasing of a characters wealth through crafting. They still have the same amount of GP to work with but the crafter can make their GPs stretch further which makes sense. I made an argument in another thread that GMs who loathe crafters hate it simply because it makes it harder for the GM to genuinely deprive a crafter of gear which is a famous tactic to gimp characters instead of improving their story.

For anyone who feels like spending a few hours reviewing a very long thread about crafting please go here for a sidebar: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4yy1&page=1?How-was-the-Wealth-by-Level-cha rt-constructed


rat_ bastard wrote:
5th level commoners can afford magical weapons, 5th level commoners are also incredibly rare.

False.


Kakitamike wrote:
Unfortunately, I feel like video games and mmo's in particular have made people expect magic items to fall out of every 3rd creature they kill. Given, some monstera have always had a chance at magical loot on their treasure tables, but it just feels more prevalent today than it used to.

THIS!!

Junk food games lead to junk results....


Buri wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
5th level commoners can afford magical weapons, 5th level commoners are also incredibly rare.
False.

WRONG - you have to go high-powered on your game demographics before they are anything less than uncommon and you also have to assume they don't own anything BUT their precious magical item - which presumably must therefore provide the shelter & food they can't subsequently afford and a career alongside the 'bonuses to hit'....


Caliburn101 wrote:
WRONG - you have to go high-powered on your game demographics before they are anything less than uncommon and you also have to assume they don't own anything BUT their precious magical item - which presumably must therefore provide the shelter & food they can't subsequently afford and a career alongside the 'bonuses to hit'....

We're playing in two different campaign settings then. Refer to the Inner Sea Campaign Guide. If the AVERAGE (note the lack of a fantasy level specification) commoner ranges from 1st to 5th level then there are those who go well above this range.


I think there is no problem with the current crafting system. It actually makes a lot more sense then it used to considering the xp costs. You're sacrificing experience to make something when you should become more experienced? That doesn't make any sense to me. As for people complaining about optimization I think you have a hole in your logic. Not only does it cost time and money to make items but also feats and skills. The world around you doesn't just wait for you to finish making your belt. Perhaps your enemies have already won because you wasted so much time making a magic item. They might even be stronger then before. Characters aren't static and neither is their environment.


Buri wrote:
Caliburn101 wrote:
WRONG - you have to go high-powered on your game demographics before they are anything less than uncommon and you also have to assume they don't own anything BUT their precious magical item - which presumably must therefore provide the shelter & food they can't subsequently afford and a career alongside the 'bonuses to hit'....
We're playing in two different campaign settings then. Refer to the Inner Sea Campaign Guide. If the AVERAGE (note the lack of a fantasy level specification) commoner ranges from 1st to 5th level then there are those who go well above this range.

Beyond this a commoner typically will have more wealth in a given year than many people want to grant him. Typically they want to go for the absolute miserable serf method without really thinking through the implications of that (especially for alignment) and don't really pay attention to the rules as presented.

I did a model village using what has been presented in pathfinder already and came out with this.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Beyond this a commoner typically will have more wealth in a given year than many people want to grant him. Typically they want to go for the absolute miserable serf method without really thinking through the implications of that (especially for alignment) and don't really pay attention to the rules as presented.

I did a model village using what has been presented in pathfinder already and came out with this.

Exactly. The average commoner includes the guy who tends his shop, goes home to his family, might travel to a neighboring town for some trade deals, and is generally "okay" financially. He's far from rich though. In IRL terms, the average commoner drives a newish vehicle (10 years old or newer), has a cell phone which is usually an iPhone or some equivalent and makes about $45k/year (the average US income) and either has a house or rents an apartment that is big enough for their furnishings. So, while you have the slums you also have the guy who doesn't really worry about much and goes through life just working his job, has a family, grows old and dies.


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I think the rules as written are fine. The developers are assuming a generic fantasy baseline; it's IMPOSSIBLE to get it "right" for everyone. So, of course, some DM's are going to complain about items being too common.

If they did the reverse, if they made items super-rare and hard to make, but left CR's intact, people would complain about PC's not being able to keep up with challenges.

If your unique setting has a different baseline for items, then be a DM and make the necessary changes. Don't expect the entire gaming community to change to YOUR individual specifics.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My GM instituted house rules similar to the OP's (caster level requirement, no take 10, all spells listed are requirements) and I gotta say, I really dislike them. There aren't many ways to increase Armor Class in Pathfinder beyond acquiring better gear. With no NPC crafters, random item drops, our group is really hurting, to the point where the best ACs are in the low 20s (at level 10). With low defenses, our cleric is forced into healbot mode to offset our lack, which is one of the most boring things to do in a game. The worst thing was that the decision seemed like an off the cuff, knee jerk reaction ("I don't like how crafting works. I'm going to change it.") rather than a reasoned assessment with any thought to how game balance would be affected.


Josh M. wrote:

I think the rules as written are fine. The developers are assuming a generic fantasy baseline; it's IMPOSSIBLE to get it "right" for everyone. So, of course, some DM's are going to complain about items being too common.

If they did the reverse, if they made items super-rare and hard to make, but left CR's intact, people would complain about PC's not being able to keep up with challenges.

If your unique setting has a different baseline for items, then be a DM and make the necessary changes. Don't expect the entire gaming community to change to YOUR individual specifics.

Yeah, I think Paizo did a good job with the core rules, and I think they do an ok job with attached systems like the chase and called shots.

The game hasn't been out too long, and I don't think it took those of us that really hate mic to find alternatives. I like to add the bonuses of the big six items to characters as they level. Other people made up heirloom items that grow per level. It's a hobbie. No one forces you play with the design out of the box.

The only real problem in the whole thing are players who don't like their gms house rules, who won't get on board, and won't quit.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
rat_ bastard wrote:

Except the average commoner lives on 3900 gp a year, after taxes, food and lodging that does not realistically put magic weapons in the hands of commoners.

Campfire beads and continual flame torches? Sure, the occasional cure spell or plant growth casting? Of course but not the highly specialized murder tools they don't even know how to use.

I don't see anyone running commoners into the Tomb of Horrors.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Robespierre wrote:
...As for people complaining about optimization I think you have a hole in your logic. Not only does it cost time and money to make items but also feats and skills. The world around you doesn't just wait for you to finish making your belt. Perhaps your enemies have already won because you wasted so much time making a magic item. They might even be stronger then before. Characters aren't static and neither is their environment.

The bad guys won when you took 4 days off? Every time? Ok... Characters can easily find more than enough time between adventures to make many items and not skip a beat in a campaign, unless you insist on railroading them into not staying put for two weeks. It's been my experience, unless the Players (not their characters, per se) are total fools, A character with very limited magic items are more than a match for 90% of the standard encounters they will experience, especially if you're running an AP with most of the encounters being as written.

Making magic items without considerable risk just leads to uber characters who the smart player has ensured have just the items they need to cover any precieved weaknesses. So it's pretty much out of character play that will lead to IC abuse. Just handwaving and saying the IC are fine merely means you've accepted that this is inevitable, maybe even desirable. If you think magic is a mere tool with no mystery, and is as predicatable as math, maybe that's fine for your game. But it holds little resemblance to traditional ideas in novels, stories, etc. How very bland.

Josh M. wrote:

I think the rules as written are fine. The developers are assuming a generic fantasy baseline; it's IMPOSSIBLE to get it "right" for everyone. So, of course, some DM's are going to complain about items being too common.

Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Achilles wrote:
Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.

From how I understand it, the devs implemented dice rolling so crafters are not limited to making items with only prereqs that they know.

In 3.5, there were no dice rolls, but you truly had to know the prerequisite spell to make that item. With the dice roll in PF, it is an added +5 to the DC if you don’t know the spell. Now I am referring to items that are not spell completion, spell trigger or potions.

Also, as Cheapy indicated in the previous page, it is ‘meant’ to be easy from the developers. Sean K. Reynolds quote

If you want to make it more difficult, as a GM you can make adjustments to the creation rules. But by RAW, it is intended to be easy.

Silver Crusade

Marius Castille wrote:
My GM instituted house rules similar to the OP's (caster level requirement, no take 10, all spells listed are requirements) and I gotta say, I really dislike them. There aren't many ways to increase Armor Class in Pathfinder beyond acquiring better gear. With no NPC crafters, random item drops, our group is really hurting, to the point where the best ACs are in the low 20s (at level 10). With low defenses, our cleric is forced into healbot mode to offset our lack, which is one of the most boring things to do in a game. The worst thing was that the decision seemed like an off the cuff, knee jerk reaction ("I don't like how crafting works. I'm going to change it.") rather than a reasoned assessment with any thought to how game balance would be affected.

Here's the problem I see. If your DM is going to limit your magic items, drops sounds too much like WoW, then he needs to keep the monsters you fight at an even footing and not climb the usual CR.

Silver Crusade

Hobbun wrote:
Achilles wrote:
Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.

From how I understand it, the devs implemented dice rolling so crafters are not limited to making items with only prereqs that they know.

In 3.5, there were no dice rolls, but you truly had to know the prerequisite spell to make that item. With the dice roll in PF, it is an added +5 to the DC if you don’t know the spell. Now I am referring to items that are not spell completion, spell trigger or potions.

Also, as Cheapy indicated in the previous page, it is ‘meant’ to be easy from the developers. Sean K. Reynolds quote

If you want to make it more difficult, as a GM you can make adjustments to the creation rules. But by RAW, it is intended to be easy.

I read that part as well about how it's supposed to be easy and I just shook my head very slowly. Magic Items can cause major major power creep if you aren't careful and they go and make it where you essentially auto succeed is bad bad game design.

Taldor RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Achilles wrote:
Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.

Tell that to the item crafting PC in the CC game I'm in - he's an 8 Int cleric. He only gets one skill point a level, so his spellcraft isn't even maxed. Someone wanted him to put a CL8 ability into a weapon, but the spell needed was not a cleric spell, so DC18. He has a +4 Spellcraft. Hardly guaranteed.

Not everyone is optimized for everything, and optimization can break much more than just item creation. I don't think you can judge the system through the lens of ruthless optimization. I think it works fine for players not trying to abuse it.

The DCs can get pretty ridiculous for spontaneous casters. Try making a belt of physical perfection without knowing any of the spell prerequisites - DC36!

Oh, and for all the people who think that the CL should be a hard requirement - you really think a caster needs to be 17th level to make a level 1 pearl of power? Really?

Silver Crusade

ryric wrote:
Achilles wrote:
Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.

Tell that to the item crafting PC in the CC game I'm in - he's an 8 Int cleric. He only gets one skill point a level, so his spellcraft isn't even maxed. Someone wanted him to put a CL8 ability into a weapon, but the spell needed was not a cleric spell, so DC18. He has a +4 Spellcraft. Hardly guaranteed.

Not everyone is optimized for everything, and optimization can break much more than just item creation. I don't think you can judge the system through the lens of ruthless optimization. I think it works fine for players not trying to abuse it.

The DCs can get pretty ridiculous for spontaneous casters. Try making a belt of physical perfection without knowing any of the spell prerequisites - DC36!

Oh, and for all the people who think that the CL should be a hard requirement - you really think a caster needs to be 17th level to make a level 1 pearl of power? Really?

I think the item creation rules need to be redone and items be categorized by their level while making level a requirement. They make level a certain requirement in some feats so why not make it a requirement in magic item creation?

All I want to know is what are they afraid of by making item creation harder, and more streamlined?

In most forms of fantasy, except for Forgotten Realms, magic items were always a mystery that usually had a history tied to each item. 3.5/Pathfinder makes it like heading over to Tesco to pick up a few.


shallowsoul wrote:
I read that part as well about how it's supposed to be easy and I just shook my head very slowly. Magic Items can cause major major power creep if you aren't careful and they go and make it where you essentially auto succeed is bad bad game design.

You're not taking all the rules into account then. To make a +5 AC item or weapon you have to be level 15 minimum. This +5 bonus costs 50k gp. For the other items you still have to pay for any spell component costs as well as half the base cost of the item. Those things in themselves gate what can be made when. Also, you can only progress on magic items at a rate of 1,000 gp per day. The most powerful magic items cost over 100k, 144k gp I believe for the +6 headbands and belts and 137k per manual/tome for each ability item. That's almost half a year of solid crafting. If you're crafting while adventuring this takes 4 times as long. To craft the headband, belt, manuals and tomes and a +5 weapon and a +5 AC item would take ~18 years (~2 for each manual/tome for 12 total, 2 for the headband, 2 for the belt, 1 for the +5 weapon, 1 for the +5 AC item) for an active adventuring person. I've never heard of a campaign taking nearly this long in-game. Kingmaker may be one but I have not played that and that's just 1 AP. On top of that though, if you have 20 years to craft don't you think those items are a fair reward for a character who is quite likely level 20 or even 10 years for the dedicated crafter if they're at least level 15?

In addition to the sheer craziness in time that it can take to craft several high level items and adventure at the same time, is there no item scarcity in your games? Or, is everyone tripping balls over adamantine, diamond dust and the like? If so, why do you have a problem with item crafting crazy amount of magical items when there are crazy amounts of magical ingredients everywhere?

I'd say you need to regulate your game world better if you're going to allow crafting. It is more work on the GM. However, that's by design.


shallowsoul wrote:

I think the item creation rules need to be redone and items be categorized by their level while making level a requirement. They make level a certain requirement in some feats so why not make it a requirement in magic item creation?

All I want to know is what are they afraid of by making item creation harder, and more streamlined?

In most forms of fantasy, except for Forgotten Realms, magic items were always a mystery that usually had a history tied to each item. 3.5/Pathfinder makes it like heading over to Tesco to pick up a few.

Some items do have a level requirement. For example:

Quote:

Phylactery of Negative Channeling

Aura moderate necromancy [evil]; CL 10th
Slot headband; Price 11,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This item is a boon to any character able to channel negative energy, increasing the amount of damage dealt to living creatures by +2d6. This also increases the amount of damage healed by undead creatures.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a 10th-level cleric; Cost 5,500 gp

You can still make this item without being a level 10 cleric but you add +5 to the DC if you're not.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ryric wrote:


The DCs can get pretty ridiculous for spontaneous casters. Try making a belt of physical perfection without knowing any of the spell prerequisites - DC36!

That will be me later on! Sorcerer caster here and will have none of the spells required.

Although I will admit I am a bit confused on the crafting CL. Under the item description, it indicates the CL for a Belt of Physical Perfection is 16. But from my understanding, that CL listed under the item is a general one for the GM to use for randomly generated magic items. Where the crafted CL would be the actual caster level needed for the prerequisite spells for the item. The problem in this case, those two caster levels would be wildly different. As Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace and Bear’s Endurance you only need a 3rd level caster (4th for a Sorcerer).

If you make an argument for using the listed CL, then what of the issues in the listed CL for the Pearl of Power, which has been stated by SKR that this even not correct to use to craft the pearl. So confused.

Silver Crusade

What's stopping you from buying scrolls of those particular spells in order to lower the DC?


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nothing.

But then that is more money you need to spend to craft the item (in purchasing the scrolls). Also, if it is a spell not on your spell list, purchasing a scroll will not help you cast it.

And another situation, you could be in a campaign where getting a hold of magic items (including scrolls) is problematic, which is the situation I am in right now (as we are monster characters).


Hobbun wrote:
Although I will admit I am a bit confused on the crafting CL. Under the item description, it indicates the CL for a Belt of Physical Perfection is 16. But from my understanding, that CL listed under the item is a general one for the GM to use for randomly generated magic items. Where the crafted CL would be the actual caster level needed for the prerequisite spells for the item. The problem in this case, those two caster levels would be wildly different. As Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace and Bear’s Endurance you only need a 3rd level caster (4th for a Sorcerer).

Unless it's listed under prerequisites an item's listed CL is not a requirement to craft the item. All CL dictates is variable level effects and how difficult it is to dispell the item. As long as you can cast the spell in question you satisfy that part of the requirements for the item. You can also adjust the CL up to your level at the time of creation and down to the lowest level to cast the highest level spell needed to create the item.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:
Unless it's listed under prerequisites an item's listed CL is not a requirement to craft the item. All CL dictates is variable level effects and how difficult it is to dispell the item. As long as you can cast the spell in question you satisfy that part of the requirements for the item. You can also adjust the CL up to your level at the time of creation and down to the lowest level to cast the highest level spell needed to create the item.

Ok, so if you are an 8th level caster and create a Belt of Physical Perfection and you do not know any of the prerequisite spells, the DC would be a 28, not a 36? Due to you are using your CL, not the listed CL on the item?

5+(your) CL+15 (for not knowing all three spells)=28


Those are all 2nd level spells. So the lowest possible CL of the item is 3. So, 5 + 3 + 15 so 23 if you craft it at level 3. You can increase the DC by 1 for each level above 3 you are to increase the items CL up to a maximum of your current level.


Hey look, this thread again!

Here's the last time we talked about this in detail

Where the ability to bypass the Item Caster Level and/or the spell prereq really gets stupid is for these two items:

Luck Blade
Candle of Invocation

By RAW, any properly built 5th level caster can craft a Candle of Invocation and open a GATE TO HELL, for a very reasonable cost. For a few dollars more, he can craft a Luck Blade, granting himself access to the most powerful spell in the game as a one shot.

This is obviously completely screwed up and thoroughly indefensible, and must be house ruled for it to work at all.


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Buri wrote:
Those are all 2nd level spells. So the lowest possible CL of the item is 3. So, 5 + 3 + 15 so 23 if you craft it at level 3. You can increase the DC by 1 for each level above 3 you are to increase the items CL up to a maximum of your current level.

Ok, that’s what I thought.

Thanks.


beej67 wrote:


Where the ability to bypass the Item Caster Level and/or the spell prereq really gets stupid is for these two items:

Luck Blade
Candle of Invocation

Oh I forgot to mention another thing that gets really really stupid according to how Paizo "clarified" the rules ... any item crafted by any caster level 10 or above, other than maybe wands and staves, is going to be crafted at "Item Crafter Level 20" so it effectively can't be dispelled. The cost for crafting a bag of holding at ICL3 and ICL 20 is the same, so if you're a mage with Craft Wonderous Item, and you have a bag of holding, you can upgrade it's ICL for free. And when taking 10 on the check, any mage worth a crap is going to be able to Take10 his way to ICL20 items when he's like level 9.


I don't know of any level 5s with 25k gp worth of diamond dust, beej67.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
beej67 wrote:
This is obviously completely screwed up and thoroughly indefensible, and must be house ruled for it to work at all.

Quick fix? (Yes, I know that I am proposing a house rule)

- The necessary spells must be brought into the creation process somehow. The +5 to DC is to reflect that you have to mix someone else's magic into the concept. So, you need a couple expensive scrolls, or must enlist a powerful spellcaster.

- If the 'acquired' spell is of higher level than you can cast, add another +5 to the DC per spell level difference.

Leaves item creation at a quite tolerable difficulty for your usual items, and slams hard on the brakes for the abominations you stated.


I actually thought you could use a scroll each time you went to craft in place of increasing the DC by 5 but at the expense of needing a crap ton of scrolls.


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As far as I understand, the scroll would be no different in casting the spell into the item than if you memorized it, or it was a known spell, so there would be no +5 DC.

Although, you would still would have to pay extra for each spell (scroll) you would need, as well as having that scrolled spell on your spell list, as you obviously can’t cast a spell off a scroll if it is not on your spell list.

Silver Crusade

I don't see anywhere that says you can use a scroll. I know it used to be that way in 3rd edition.

Silver Crusade

Now it does say you can access the spells through another spellcaster or a magic item for certain items you want to create.

Just get a fellow party member who has the spell to cast it for you.


Achilles wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
...As for people complaining about optimization I think you have a hole in your logic. Not only does it cost time and money to make items but also feats and skills. The world around you doesn't just wait for you to finish making your belt. Perhaps your enemies have already won because you wasted so much time making a magic item. They might even be stronger then before. Characters aren't static and neither is their environment.

The bad guys won when you took 4 days off? Every time? Ok... Characters can easily find more than enough time between adventures to make many items and not skip a beat in a campaign, unless you insist on railroading them into not staying put for two weeks. It's been my experience, unless the Players (not their characters, per se) are total fools, A character with very limited magic items are more than a match for 90% of the standard encounters they will experience, especially if you're running an AP with most of the encounters being as written.

Making magic items without considerable risk just leads to uber characters who the smart player has ensured have just the items they need to cover any precieved weaknesses. So it's pretty much out of character play that will lead to IC abuse. Just handwaving and saying the IC are fine merely means you've accepted that this is inevitable, maybe even desirable. If you think magic is a mere tool with no mystery, and is as predicatable as math, maybe that's fine for your game. But it holds little resemblance to traditional ideas in novels, stories, etc. How very bland.

Josh M. wrote:

I think the rules as written are fine. The developers are assuming a generic fantasy baseline; it's IMPOSSIBLE to get it "right" for everyone. So, of course, some DM's are going to complain about items being too common.

Well, why bother with a dice roll then? Just assume they make the items, because the success rate is not far from guaranteed.

I'm talking about more expensive items. The power level of your party isn't going to drastically change because of a 7k item. I don't expect my campaign to be based off of novels because that would be boring. If you're investing feats and skills just to craft items below 10k you're effectively nerfing yourself. My party doesn't believe in drastic amounts of down time because of the fact that we could be doing something productive. If your DM is giving you months at a time to craft a single item more power to you. However I play in campaigns that consists of constent action because that's what my party enjoys. We might say in town for a couple of weeks but usually during that time we are searching for information to achieve our goals.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:

Now it does say you can access the spells through another spellcaster or a magic item for certain items you want to create.

Just get a fellow party member who has the spell to cast it for you.

Using scrolls would fall under this.

Silver Crusade

There we go!

Now this only works with certain items that you can create.

In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.


Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:

There we go!

Now this only works with certain items that you can create.

In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.

I was just making sure we were on the same page. :)

As for spell trigger, spell completion items or potions, the question is if you have the scroll, do you need to have the spell memorized or know the spell? I mean if you have the scroll, couldn’t you just use that to cast into the item?

Now of course this would be very awkward and expensive. I can’t see someone purchasing 50 scrolls to make a wand.

I am a Sorcerer, and I would never purchase 50 scrolls just so I could create an arcane wand of a spell I do not know.

Silver Crusade

Hobbun wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

There we go!

Now this only works with certain items that you can create.

In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.

I was just making sure we were on the same page. :)

As for spell trigger, spell completion items or potions, the question is if you have the scroll, do you need to have the spell memorized or know the spell? I mean if you have the scroll, couldn’t you just use that to cast into the item?

Now of course this would be very awkward and expensive. I can’t see someone purchasing 50 scrolls to make a wand.

I am a Sorcerer, and I would never purchase 50 scrolls just so I could create an arcane wand of a spell I do not know.

Well the book says you can use someone else or a magic item except for what I listed above. With those items you must have the spell either memorized or known.


Why would you need 50 scrolls? You don't cast a spell 50 times to make a wand. The only place 50 stuff comes in is for spells with materials (diamond dust for example). If you could make a wish wand it would take 50 measures of diamond dust worth 25k gp each. But, you don't have to cast wish 50 times. When the scroll was created is when that spells material components were consumed. So, you'd just need a scroll for each day you'd be working on the wand.

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