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So, what does everything about about DC restarting all its titles, from Batman to Justice League to Booster Gold(?), with issue #1? Heroes are to appear younger, apparently, Supes and Wonder Woman have new costumes, and the "origins" of many characters will be "revamped" to more modern(?) sensibilities?


joela wrote:
So, what does everything about about DC restarting all its titles, from Batman to Justice League to Booster Gold(?), with issue #1? Heroes are to appear younger, apparently, Supes and Wonder Woman have new costumes, and the "origins" of many characters will be "revamped" to more modern(?) sensibilities?

This is the first I'm hearing about this. I may actually try to get into DC when this starts other than the occassional storyarc. That does suck though for longtime fans.


joela wrote:
So, what does everything about about DC restarting all its titles, from Batman to Justice League to Booster Gold(?), with issue #1? Heroes are to appear younger, apparently, Supes and Wonder Woman have new costumes, and the "origins" of many characters will be "revamped" to more modern(?) sensibilities?

DC was going to do a full reboot back when COIE ended, and I was disappointed that they didn't. But that was Crisis for crying out loud and so far Flashpoint doesn't seem important enough to cause this much craziness. So at the moment, I'm undecided.

Though, Morrison on Superman and Fabian on Teen Titans does sound pretty awesome to me....


When is this starting? I may just start collecting again.

NM. DC website says august 31 only 2 comics will be released, The last Flashpoint and JLA #1. After that we get all of the other books. Exciting times for me, I'm a big fan of DC.


Btw Geoff Johns and Jim Lee are on JLA. Count me in.

My wish list however unlikely...
Kelly Jones back on Batman
Mark Waid back on Flash
Giffen Legion ;)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well Gail Simone is *off* Birds of Prey :-(

I'm just hoping we *don't* get Greyson back in short pants, or that we lose Steph, Tim, Bart, Wally, Rose or Cassie. (Damian, I can live without)

Kudos to putting Vic on JLA though I don't suppose it would be likely that the JLA promo art we see that's Dick, Wally, and Donna instead of Bruce, Diana, and Barry. :-(

Definately worried about losing my favourites, or seeing decades of characterization going poof.

I will be amused if Barbara's walking in the reboot. After all the posturing of "Yes she could be healed, but we *want* a 'crippled hero'." blech.


first I am hearing about this as well. Any particular reason why this is happening?

Scarab Sages

Freehold DM wrote:
first I am hearing about this as well. Any particular reason why this is happening?

Money.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Freehold DM wrote:
first I am hearing about this as well. Any particular reason why this is happening?

overwhelming urge to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic? :-)

Comicbookresources.com has more details.

Oh, and for Morrison fans, He's going to be writing a Superman book.

Mediawise, the big thing is that books are going same-day-digital.


Hoping it's a PDF style format not "borrowed" and locked to reading only on their website. Meaning I don't want to pay for shelf space on DCs website. I'd also want it easily transferred to my mobile devices.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Sunderstone wrote:
Hoping it's a PDF style format not "borrowed" and locked to reading only on their website. Meaning I don't want to pay for shelf space on DCs website. I'd also want it easily transferred to my mobile devices.

Agreed on both counts. I love my pathfinder PDFs for that reason, I can read while auditing at work :-)


I'm a long time Marvel reader but I have only read a handful of DC titles in my life and almost all of those have been trades or hard cover compilations. With this reboot I will give some DC titles a shot but the main reason why is the same day digital format. It's about time.

I am tired of having thousands of worthless comic books in my house. I have been reading comics for most of my life. I have never wanted to collect them. Doing same day digital is an idea that is way overdue. I can only hope Marvel follows suit but without the reboot.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

cibet44 wrote:

I'm a long time Marvel reader but I have only read a handful of DC titles in my life and almost all of those have been trades or hard cover compilations. With this reboot I will give some DC titles a shot but the main reason why is the same day digital format. It's about time.

<snip>

I'd not call my comics *worthless* they've given me years of entertainment, but yes, digital (if I can download) is good.

Like I told a coworker... I'll either be buying more DC titles... or Less.


DC is restarting all its titles?!? Good lord!

I feel a ramble coming on...

I haven't actually kept current with any comic series since the 1990s. I just get old issues and trade paperback reprints, so I haven't seen anything more up-to-date than 2009. But even if I don't follow anything yet, just KNOWING that DC is doing this is like a splash of water on my face. It's amazing!

I remember when Superman got rebooted in the 1980s. I thought "But he's meeting other characters, both before and after his reboot, whose continuities are NOT being rebooted. It just doesn't work. If you want to reboot one, you need to reboot them ALL. But of course, DC would never, ever do that."

When I heard that "Final Crisis" was coming out, I rolled my eyes. I said "FINAL crisis! Shyeah, right. The only way it could be final is if every title got rebooted right afterwards, and DC would never, ever do that." (Incidentally, since I never read nor followed that stuff, what WAS "final" about Final Crisis? I suspect that the answer is: nothing.)

I remember when that free comic website got shut down, a lot of people said "This ought to teach DC and Marvel to take the electronic medium more seriously." I thought "but that's never, ever going to happen."

Clearly, I was wrong.

Of course, the reboot might be for the worse. Sometimes, I think that changes are made just for changes' sake, and some things that shouldn't be changed are. But there's a chance that DC won't screw it up. And it goes without saying that a reboot is called for. Saying that DC continuity is messed up would be like saying that the Atlantic Ocean is damp.

I looked at comicbookresources.com just now, and read "DC Comics will relaunch the MAJORITY of its publishing line." Only the majority? What will be the exceptions, and how will those be reconciled with the rebooted titles?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

More Reboot info here.

If that JLI title has Dick and Donna, I might be interested. If there's one Batman and he's on two teams... :-(


Not super keen on the apparent changes to Superman's suit...but digital distribution may just make me a regular consumer of comics for the first time in decades. I'll definitely give it a try.

And for god's sake, can we please, please kill Krypto the super dog dead, DEAD, DEAD? He should never have been bought back after crisis...

Grand Lodge

Color me intrigued. And Superman's new shield looks a lot like the Golden Age one which is kinda neat.


Andrew Betts wrote:
Color me intrigued. And Superman's new shield looks a lot like the Golden Age one which is kinda neat.

This will be what...like the fourth version of Superman's origin in the last five or so years?

Also makes me wonder what the 2012 movie version of Supes will look like...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I don't follow comics that much, but the legal rights of some characters like Superman reverting to their original creators (or their heirs) might have something to do with this. Per this article, the Superman suit won't be DC's to use anymore sometime next year, so that's likely why they need to give him a new look.


Captain Atom's new look is odd to say the least.


I just read the CNN article on the subject, and now I'm feeling some serious nerd rage.

cnn.com wrote:
Fifty-two superheroes are getting a makeover, and comic book fans can't stop talking about it -- even though they've seen this sort of thing before.

SEEN THIS SORT OF THING BEFORE?!? WHAT THE...?!?

Sure, DC rebooted many INDIVIDUAL titles, heroes, and groups, but ALL of them simultaneously? This is a move that's been desperately needed these past 20 years! DC has NEVER done it on such a scale before! There's no telling yet whether it will be good or bad, but it's BIG. How could anyone pooh-pooh it like that?!?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

"Aaron Bitman wrote:
Sure, DC rebooted many INDIVIDUAL titles, heroes, and groups, but ALL of them simultaneously? This is a move that's been desperately needed these past 20 years! DC has NEVER done it on such a scale before! There's no telling yet whether it will be good or bad, but it's BIG. How could anyone pooh-pooh it like that?!?

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS rebooted the entire DC Universe, ground-up. It eliminated the Golden Age Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (replacing them in the WWII JSA with Iron Munroe, Flying Fox, and Fury), rebooted Superman entirely (gone the super-science fantasy world where everybody wore headbands, and gone Superboy; now Krypton was a dying world where everyone wore whipped cream on thier tabards), Wonder Woman entirely (gone Diana Prince and vulnerability to being chained; now the Greek gods were an organic part of her storyline), and made all previous continuity optional.

One of the failings, post-Crisis, is a tendency to fall back on pre-Crisis stories. It's one thing for John Byrne to make a one-shot joke about Luthor's imperfect attempt to clone Superman being a "Bizzare - Oh!" thing. But then someone else decided that Bizarro was a nice part of pre-Crisis continuity, and re-introduced Bizarro. And Byrne himself reintroduced Mxyzpdlk. And some other writer reintroduced kryptonite as a plentiful mineral. And freeze-breath. And Luthor-as-scientist rather than Luthor-as-tycoon. And Kandor. And ...

And so we're pretty much back to the Superman we had in 1983. Same with most of the JLA.


Personally, this mega change fills me with no small amount of dread. The promo image for the JLA done by Jim Lee left me extremely unhappy - primarily due to the changes to Superman's and Wonder Woman's respective costumes. (Red piping around Supes' wrists? Seriously? A Wonder Woman costume that doesn't incorporate the Stars and Stripes? I call foul!)

You want the heroes to look a bit younger? I'm cool with that.
You want to reboot the setting to tell new stories? Go for it.
Same day digital distribution? Sweet - let's do it.
Changing something as iconic as Superman's suit isn't necessary though. I find that part particularly unwelcome, actually. I don't mind the missing outer-undies (ok, actually I do), but the aforementioned red piping, the chunkier S-shield, and the goofy high collar bother me in my deep, inner core places.

I am severely lacking in confidence regarding this change. My deepest hope at this point is that it turns out to be some termporary diversion before we return to the Superman I grew up with and treasure.


Chris Mortika wrote:
CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS rebooted the entire DC Universe, ground-up.

COIE was not a complete reboot. Some parts of established continuity were still there... but some weren't. Earth 2 never existed? Then where did Power Girl and Fury come from? Clumsy attempts to answer questions like these only made the continuity a bigger mess.

But a COMPLETE reboot, where NO previous stories are canon any longer, would be a different matter. If character X comes from Earth-Y, then that's the way it always happened, in this version of the story. Big difference. (And Superman didn't get rebooted until AFTER the COIE.)

Chris Mortika wrote:
One of the failings, post-Crisis, is a tendency to fall back on pre-Crisis stories. It's one thing for John Byrne to make a one-shot joke about Luthor's imperfect attempt to clone Superman being a "Bizzare - Oh!" thing. But then someone else decided that Bizarro was a nice part of pre-Crisis continuity, and re-introduced Bizarro. And Byrne himself reintroduced Mxyzpdlk. And some other writer reintroduced kryptonite as a plentiful mineral. And freeze-breath. And Luthor-as-scientist rather than Luthor-as-tycoon. And Kandor. And ...

I'll admit that I've been annoyed by this in the past, but hey, those past ideas WORKED. They were brought back for a REASON. I expect that any really radical changes made this time will be rolled back too... but with a new continuity. Not just Superman's continuity, but that of the whole DC universe. That's the difference.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Aaron Bitman wrote:

COIE was not a complete reboot. Some parts of established continuity were still there... but some weren't. Earth 2 never existed? Then where did Power Girl and Fury come from? Clumsy attempts to answer questions like these only made the continuity a bigger mess.

But a COMPLETE reboot, where NO previous stories are canon any longer, would be a different matter. If character X comes from Earth-Y, then that's the way it always happened, in this version of the story. Big difference. (And Superman didn't get rebooted until AFTER the COIE.)

I'm not sure what you're asking for. Like, DC closes shop one month, and the next month opens and it's all-new characters?

Power Girl was from ancient Atlantis, of course. Um...

And Crisis on Infinite Earths did reset all those Earth-whatevers. Captain Marvel was from the same Earth as Superman, and always had been. The Justice Society just retired, making room for younger heroes in the-current-year-minus-5. The Huntress was the daughter of mobserts, rather than Batman and Catwoman.

And the Byrne reboot of SUPERMAN was indeed at the beginning of the Post-Crisis continuity. The Alan Moore two-parter "Whatever Became of the Man of Steel?" was the last of the pre-Crisis books. (I was writing the DC HEROES "Superman Sourcebook" at the time.)

Part of the awkwardness of the DC universe for several years afterwards involved the no-longer-valid origins of a lot of characters. If Wonder Woman were fresh and new and had never appeared in the outside world until WONDER WOMAN #1, then who was Donna Troy? (In the very early Superman / Teen Titans cross-over, Donna implies that her lasso and other powers are super-scientific in origin.)

The title that got screwed the worst was, of course, LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. What were people to make of that continuity, now that Clark Kent were never Superboy? What made it worse was that LSH had just shifted to a "Five Years Later" model, so we were missing a lot of the history of the characters, and then there was one reality shift (Glorith) and then suddenly another (due to Crisis and the new DC continuity) five months later. And the first solution (The Time Trapper creates a pocket universe identical to the pre-Crisis continuity, where the Legionaires always shuttle to, whenever they time travel, and it has a pre-Crisis Superboy.) didn't fare well, and so there was another continuity shift to try to explain THAT!


Chris Mortika wrote:


The title that got screwed the worst was, of course, LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. What were people to make of that continuity, now that Clark Kent were never Superboy? What made it worse was that LSH had just shifted to a "Five Years Later" model, so we were missing a lot of the history of the characters, and then there was one reality shift (Glorith) and then suddenly another (due to Crisis and the new DC continuity) five months later. And the first solution (The Time Trapper creates a pocket universe identical to the pre-Crisis continuity, where the Legionaires always shuttle to, whenever they time travel, and it has a pre-Crisis Superboy.) didn't fare well, and so there was another continuity shift to try to explain THAT!

I still loved the Giffen's LSH run. Darker, Grittier, etc.


Sunderstone wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:


The title that got screwed the worst was, of course, LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES. What were people to make of that continuity, now that Clark Kent were never Superboy? What made it worse was that LSH had just shifted to a "Five Years Later" model, so we were missing a lot of the history of the characters, and then there was one reality shift (Glorith) and then suddenly another (due to Crisis and the new DC continuity) five months later. And the first solution (The Time Trapper creates a pocket universe identical to the pre-Crisis continuity, where the Legionaires always shuttle to, whenever they time travel, and it has a pre-Crisis Superboy.) didn't fare well, and so there was another continuity shift to try to explain THAT!
I still loved the Giffen's LSH run. Darker, Grittier, etc.

Ditto. Speaking as a marvel fan I loved the previous run of Legion. But the Five Years Later Reboot IS MY definitive Legion of SuperHeroes.

Liberty's Edge

One of the things I always disliked about DC was how iconic and unchanging the characters are. Sure you might have character XYZ kill character ABC in a miniseries yet outside of the mini it has no impact on the DCU or the character as a whole. So after awhile I read less and less DC and more Marvel. I may not like every Marvel title or everything Marvel has done yet I know in the example above that if a character in the MU did that their would be reprecussions and the character would be affected. what can i say I like my superheroes more realistic and less sterotypical super. If the reboot does make whatever happens to a character in a miniseries have na impact I might collect more DC. If its the usual "by the big mini-series event! The DCU and its character will never be the same!" and do the opposite than no i am not interested.

Sovereign Court

I am no fan of reboots. When I think reboots, I think lazy writers.

We'll see, but I hold little hope.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Hmm, Bleeding Cool is reporting Nightwing and Batgirl. It's also reporting that Barbara will be Batgirl.

If true, that's annoying. Barbara is too old to be batgirl And I like Steph. I hope she at least is still in the universe (as Spoiler?)


Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, Bleeding Cool is reporting Nightwing and Batgirl. It's also reporting that Barbara will be Batgirl.

If true, that's annoying. Barbara is too old to be batgirl And I like Steph. I hope she at least is still in the universe (as Spoiler?)

You have to remember that they said the ages of certain characters will change.


DC, based on what I've read about their plans, has pretty much lost me. Jim Lee's art isn't what it used to be, and his costume designs suck. DC has clearly lost touch with who buys their comics; kids don't buy comics, adults buy comics. This reboot isn't going to get the kids to spend their dollars on comics rather than the latest video game.


The big 2 approach things from different perspectives, and both have good and bad points.

DC : reboot every now and then to the point where older stories are no longer valid as anything other than good stories, but have no place in canon. For both the good and bad of this, see Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Marvel : major retcons that go against the established ways characters have been for years. X-Men: First Class is a good example, Deadly Genesis is the opposite end of the spectrum.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

If this was the first BOLD NEW DIRECTION we'd had in, say, a decade or so, I'd be intrigued.

As the last decade or so has, instead, been nothing BUT retcons and BOLD NEW DIRECTIONS and renumberings galore, I can't help but feel very jaded about it. DC's reboot screams to me, "Our sales are still dropping and we still don't know what to do!!!" And, mind, a reboot isn't a bad idea when sales are dropping. But DC has a habit, in my personal opinion, of fixing what isn't broken while leaving the truly mangled in place. I won't go so far as to say, "It will suck!!!" without seeing exactly what they are doing, because I get annoyed when people do that. But I find it extremely difficult not to at least be very skeptical about it.

That Gail Simone has indeed been booted from Birds of Prey doesn't help my mood much. I've been reading BoP since it was a miniseries by Chuck Dixon, but Gail Simone brought and brings something to it that seldom fails to intrigue and entertain. So that's incredibly disappointing. If Secret Six disappears due to this reboot, that may well be me dropping all the DC titles I read (though maybe I might check out Gail Simone's Firestorm).

The Babs-as-Batgirl thing is just rumor, but if it turns out to be truth, that will be one more thing that might turn me away from DC Comics. Oracle has been one of my favorite characters since I started really collecting comics; I did read and enjoy her as Batgirl on occasion, but as Oracle she soared--and she touches readers in a lot of ways that other superheroes don't. If all that goes away with an editorial, "RETCON THE B%@@@!" then... well, as that implies, I guess I'll feel much like Batgirl fans felt during the Killing Joke. I guess one way or another, someone will be pissed off. (c.f. "Unpleasable fanbase.")

And I just have to laugh at Wonder Woman being dropped to #1 again (at least with everyone else this time). She was renumbered to her "original" 600 less than a year ago, along with the start of her "bold new direction" at the hands of J. Michael Straczinski (who has already fled the scene of the crime). That reboot will be completely ignored, apparently--and while I didn't enjoy it, it just also is a bit of evidence that DC Comics can't even stick to its guns for a whole year---for all we know, this whole reboot will be a forgotten thing of the past by 2013. Poor Wonder Woman, icon of love and truth and both inner and outer strength. Between a zillion reboots in this century alone and endless development hell for movie and TV shows, there's clearly no place in the pop culture for icons of such "quaint" notions. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to curl up with my Lynda Carter DVDs for awhile.


DeathQuaker wrote:

If this was the first BOLD NEW DIRECTION we'd had in, say, a decade or so, I'd be intrigued.

As the last decade or so has, instead, been nothing BUT retcons and BOLD NEW DIRECTIONS and renumberings galore, I can't help but feel very jaded about it. DC's reboot screams to me, "Our sales are still dropping and we still don't know what to do!!!" And, mind, a reboot isn't a bad idea when sales are dropping. But DC has a habit, in my personal opinion, of fixing what isn't broken while leaving the truly mangled in place. I won't go so far as to say, "It will suck!!!" without seeing exactly what they are doing, because I get annoyed when people do that. But I find it extremely difficult not to at least be very skeptical about it.

Fair points. IMO, reboots are something you should only do when your numbers are in the toilet, not falling. Falling numbers and non existent numbers are two very very different things.

Quote:
That Gail Simone has indeed been booted from Birds of Prey doesn't help my mood much. I've been reading BoP since it was a miniseries by Chuck Dixon, but Gail Simone brought and brings something to it that seldom fails to intrigue and entertain. So that's incredibly disappointing. If Secret Six disappears due to this reboot, that may well be me dropping all the DC titles I read (though maybe I might check out Gail Simone's Firestorm).

I've been picking up Birds of Prey and enjoying it, but I am fully aware that Gail Simone brought something special to the book that others did not.

Quote:
The Babs-as-Batgirl thing is just rumor, but if it turns out to be truth, that will be one more thing that might turn me away from DC Comics. Oracle has been one of my favorite characters since I started really collecting comics; I did read and enjoy her as Batgirl on occasion, but as Oracle she soared--and she touches readers in a lot of ways that other superheroes don't. If all that goes away with an editorial, "RETCON THE B%*%%!" then... well, as that implies, I guess I'll feel much like Batgirl fans felt during the Killing Joke. I guess one way or another, someone will be pissed off. (c.f. "Unpleasable fanbase.")

Truer words have never been spoken.

Quote:
And I just have to laugh at Wonder Woman being dropped to #1 again (at least with everyone else this time). She was renumbered to her "original" 600 less than a year ago, along with the start of her "bold new direction" at the hands of J. Michael Straczinski (who has already fled the scene of the crime). That reboot will be completely ignored, apparently--and while I didn't enjoy it, it just also is a bit of evidence that DC Comics can't even stick to its guns for a whole year---for all we know, this whole reboot will be a forgotten thing of the past by 2013. Poor Wonder Woman, icon of love and truth and both inner and outer strength. Between a zillion reboots in this century alone and endless development hell for movie and TV shows, there's clearly no place in the pop culture for icons of such "quaint" notions. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to curl up with my Lynda Carter DVDs for awhile

In many ways, see above. My wife had a damn good belly laugh over your J. Micheal Straczinski quote, but Wonder Woman is not an easy character to "get right", despite what fans have said. I remember the horrid fights that broke out over the character when she lost her powers and tried to fight the woman needs super powers to be equal with or superior to men bit; I remember people still being upset when she was essentially a sentient golem; I remember people not liking the new costume(in almost any iteration); I remember people not wanting to see a bad TV series which almost invariably turns into people not wanting to see ANY TV series...she's a complicated character, it takes time to see anything of note.


Garydee wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, Bleeding Cool is reporting Nightwing and Batgirl. It's also reporting that Barbara will be Batgirl.

If true, that's annoying. Barbara is too old to be batgirl And I like Steph. I hope she at least is still in the universe (as Spoiler?)

Quote:
You have to remember that they said the ages of certain characters will change.

weeps openly WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!


Freehold DM wrote:
Garydee wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, Bleeding Cool is reporting Nightwing and Batgirl. It's also reporting that Barbara will be Batgirl.

If true, that's annoying. Barbara is too old to be batgirl And I like Steph. I hope she at least is still in the universe (as Spoiler?)

Quote:
You have to remember that they said the ages of certain characters will change.
weeps openly WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!

I'm betting it's Joss Whedon's fault somehow. ;)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Freehold DM wrote:


In many ways, see above. My wife had a damn good belly laugh over your J. Micheal Straczinski quote, but Wonder Woman is not an easy character to "get right", despite what fans have said. I remember the horrid fights that broke out over the character when she lost her powers and tried to fight the woman needs super powers to be equal with or superior to men bit; I remember people still being upset when she was essentially a sentient golem; I remember people not liking the new costume(in almost any iteration); I remember people not wanting to see a bad TV series which almost invariably turns into people not wanting to see ANY TV series...she's a complicated character, it takes time to see anything of note.

Did I ever say Wonder Woman was easy to write? :) She's not. But she's not THAT hard either; too many people have tried too hard, in my opinion. Amazon. Ideal of feminine strength (read William Moulton Marston's thoughts on the matter, be wary of the subtle bondage references ;)). Strong. Fast. Kind. Wise. This may not be easy material but it is more than doable. The reason why stuff like JMS and David E Kelley's recent attempts is that they tried too hard to break the mold when I'm not sure they even knew what the mold was.

Wonder Woman has been made of clay since the mid 40s so if people still have a problem with that then that's a whole other thing. :) (Mind, I like her original origin better, of just being one of many awesome Amazons with natural strength, and that she's just the best of the best, but that origin was actually relatively short lived (though I think they used it for the Lynda Carter show)).

The debates over costume and degree of powers have existed for all major superheroes---I remember when "Superman Returns" was announced, the IMMENSE fanboy rage because the red in Superman's costume was a shade too dark. I wish I was making that up. Wonder Woman is so very not unique in that, but somehow Batman and Superman and the X-Men have bypassed these debates (even as they rage on) while Wonder Woman is stuck.


Very mixed emotions about this.... leaning to nerd-rage for a thirty year+ comic collector.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Did I ever say Wonder Woman was easy to write? :) She's not. But she's not THAT hard either; too many people have tried too hard, in my opinion. Amazon. Ideal of feminine strength (read William Moulton Marston's thoughts on the matter, be wary of the subtle bondage references ;)). Strong. Fast. Kind. Wise. This may not be easy material but it is more than doable. The reason why stuff like JMS and David E Kelley's recent attempts is that they tried too hard to break the mold when I'm not sure they even knew what the mold was.

Wonder Woman has been made of clay since the mid 40s so if people still have a problem with that then that's a whole other thing. :) (Mind, I like her original origin better, of just being one of many awesome Amazons with natural strength, and that she's just the best of the best, but that origin was actually relatively short lived (though I think they used it for the Lynda Carter show)).

Honestly, the worst thing about Wonder Woman is that DC consistently overreacts to fluctuations on the book. Gail Simone's run started out really well, and the run was marked by Wonder Woman acting like one of the big three super heroes at DC, fighting the Fourth Reich and Grodd's Gorilla Knights and converting them, fighting against and then for the Khunds, one of DC notable alien races.

Simone treated her like someone that's up there in power with Superman, and it did well. On top of that, she did some neat nostalgia stories with some of DC's fantasy characters like the Stalker.

Now her sales did drop off by about 50% towards the end of Simone's run, but its not that there wasn't a good "take" on Wonder Woman or that she needed to be rebooted. There were several factors involved.

1. In general, comic book sales dropped off. Wonder Woman is a great character, but people are a lot less likely to drop their umpteen Batman, Superman, or Green Lantern books than Wonder Woman if they are pairing back their buying habits.

2. Blackest Night hit. Blackest Night had its biggest cross overs into the Green Lantern books, and Wonder Woman was only involved briefly towards the end. While I generally hate constant major crossovers, it does seem odd to me that when you want to sell a book, you have most of the tie in with a series of books that's already selling well (the GL books).

3. As much as I loved Simone's run, I can't fully defend her for the whole "Olympian" storyline, which had to do with Zeus being kidnapped by aliens, going somewhat insane, and killing a Polynesian deity to create a race of male "Amazons." Despite that, that story line had pretty much wrapped up, and I'm fairly certain the weirdness of that story wasn't going to be the status quo from that point on.

Now, even if DC had decided that Simone needed to go from the book (even with the drop off in sales, she was selling comparably to other DC monthies that DC didn't panic over), why bring in JMS to throw her into an alternate history where she is younger with fewer powers, while Amazons are being hunted and are in hiding across the globe, and shifting Wonder Woman into a vengeful sword wielding commando that spends the first few issues of her new run fighting gun toting thugs instead of DC mainstay bad guys to show that she belongs right up there along side Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, and such?

And I'm still wondering how the Hell poor Donna Troy is going to fit into all of this.


Garydee wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Garydee wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, Bleeding Cool is reporting Nightwing and Batgirl. It's also reporting that Barbara will be Batgirl.

If true, that's annoying. Barbara is too old to be batgirl And I like Steph. I hope she at least is still in the universe (as Spoiler?)

Quote:
You have to remember that they said the ages of certain characters will change.
weeps openly WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
I'm betting it's Joss Whedon's fault somehow. ;)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


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I wish Marvel would do the same thing, just to erase the whole Civil War thing.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

DeathQuaker wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:


In many ways, see above. My wife had a damn good belly laugh over your J. Micheal Straczinski quote, but Wonder Woman is not an easy character to "get right", despite what fans have said. I remember the horrid fights that broke out over the character when she lost her powers and tried to fight the woman needs super powers to be equal with or superior to men bit; I remember people still being upset when she was essentially a sentient golem; I remember people not liking the new costume(in almost any iteration); I remember people not wanting to see a bad TV series which almost invariably turns into people not wanting to see ANY TV series...she's a complicated character, it takes time to see anything of note.
(read William Moulton Marston's thoughts on the matter, be wary of the subtle bondage references ;)).

Subtle???

more seriously, I think Gail's one of those who 'get' Wonder Woman.

And I worry about Donna and cassie in the reboot as well.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

KnightErrantJR wrote:


Honestly, the worst thing about Wonder Woman is that DC consistently overreacts to fluctuations on the book. Gail Simone's run started out really well, and the run was marked by Wonder Woman acting like one of the big three super heroes at DC, fighting the Fourth Reich and Grodd's Gorilla Knights and converting them, fighting against and then for the Khunds, one of DC notable alien races.

Simone treated her like someone that's up there in power with Superman, and it did well. On top of that, she did some neat nostalgia stories with some of DC's fantasy characters like the Stalker.

Now her sales did drop off by about 50% towards the end of Simone's run, but its not that there wasn't a good "take" on Wonder Woman or that she needed to be rebooted. There were several factors involved. (snip)

You've hit the nail on the head on several factors here. Well said.

I'm curious what they are going to end up keeping and discarding for this new reboot.

Matthew Morris wrote:
Subtle???

Well, compared to the way he talked about his own relationship with women? :)

Quote:


more seriously, I think Gail's one of those who 'get' Wonder Woman.

Agreed.

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And I worry about Donna and cassie in the reboot as well.

Indeed. Other b-casts in other titles too... for the Gothamverse, I also worry about Cass Cain and Steph... I can't remember her last name. The vigilante formerly known as Spoiler. (Brown?) We can probably safely lose a few Robins, on he other hand. ;)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

DeathQuaker wrote:
Quote:


And I worry about Donna and cassie in the reboot as well.
Indeed. Other b-casts in other titles too... for the Gothamverse, I also worry about Cass Cain and Steph... I can't remember her last name. The vigilante formerly known as Spoiler. (Brown?) We can probably safely lose a few Robins, on he other hand. ;)

I worry about Cassie (ironic in that she's free of the mess that is Diana and Donna's history) and Stephanie. I also worry about Rose, though Slade Wilson really needs a continuity reboot.

Since it seems we're losing Gail from Birds of Prey, I'd love to see a reboot with Proxy, Stephanie, Rose, Cass Cain working with a 'mentor' Kind of kids of villians trying to do better. :-) Maybe under Selina?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

More news.

Detective Comics will be renumbered as well, with Bruce being the only Batman, and Damien being Robin.

We've 'leaked' covers of Nightwing, Catwoman and Swampthing. No news yet on Tim and Dick. or who's going to be Nightwing.

DC's really helping my comic budget so far. No Justice League, No Dick-as-Batman books...


Matthew Morris wrote:
Detective Comics will be renumbered as well...

Gee. Up until now, I thought the reboot was a good idea, but... renumbering Detective Comics? What a pity. I mean, how many comics acheive an issue figure of more than 800? It seems a shame to throw that away.

But I guess that if that's the price we have to pay for a clean continuity, so be it.


Matthew Morris wrote:

More news.

Detective Comics will be renumbered as well, with Bruce being the only Batman, and Damien being Robin.

We've 'leaked' covers of Nightwing, Catwoman and Swampthing. No news yet on Tim and Dick. or who's going to be Nightwing.

DC's really helping my comic budget so far. No Justice League, No Dick-as-Batman books...

Indeed, I stand to save quite a bit of money. My wallet thanks you even as my heart grieves.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

More Bat news

Well Birds of Prey is definately off my pull list. I don't need to read 'chicks do X-force in Gotham'.

Batgirl, I'm torn. I want Stephanie in the Batsuit, but it's Gail writing...


If Damian is Robin and Dick is Nightwing... Where is Tim? And Jason? I hope Jason is back to being dead but I like Tim, he's the Robin I grew with... And I don't really care for Barbara as Batgirl, I still like Cassie better. Or even Steph. Barbara as Oracle was the best hacker/computer expert on a world of supergenius, as Batgirl she is just another bat-themed hero. And without Oracle the Birds of Prey don't even have a reason to exist.

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