It's not a complaint about Harley being on the suicide squad. That would've been cool. It's a complaint about it not being Harley.Amen. I look at Harley's background and can picture her as a non-superpowered Karla Soffen (Moonstone). She's crazy, but she has training in frakking with peoples' heads. The last arc of GSS showed that. I could picture her really messing with Bronze tiger, Deadshot, and possibly the Wall too, just for fun.
All of this and more could happen. We're just going to have to wait for the book to come out to see. Again, most of the complaints I've encountered are about her outfit, which is something I take with a grain of salt.
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DC also promised that there would be a reversal to the original status quo in a few years time, insisting that "this is not an event".
So in the end an exercise in futility. Whats the point then of even doing what they plan on doing if its not going to even be permanent. Talk about wanting to fracture the fanbase even more. I do not know what it si with comic writers and comic companies. There seem to be a huge disconnect between what they want and the fans want.
DC also promised that there would be a reversal to the original status quo in a few years time, insisting that "this is not an event".
So in the end an exercise in futility. Whats the point then of even doing what they plan on doing if its not going to even be permanent. Talk about wanting to fracture the fanbase even more. I do not know what it si with comic writers and comic companies. There seem to be a huge disconnect between what they want and the fans want.
The actual article says:
DC also promised that there would not be a reversal to the original status quo in a few years time, insisting that "this is not an event".
I'm not sure why that key word is missing from Joela's quote.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thanks. Makes more sense. You do not do something so major and then in a few years time retcon it imo. Not without angering and fracturing the fanbase. Who would ever take Dc seriosuly after that.
I'm not sure why that key word is missing from Joela's quote.
*cough*HalJordanBarryAllenZeroHourJasonToddSUPERBOYPUNCH!*cough*
*cough*HalJordanBarryAllenZeroHourJasonToddSUPERBOYPUNCH!*cough*Thanks. Makes more sense. You do not do something so major and then in a few years time retcon it imo. Not without angering and fracturing the fanbase. Who would ever take Dc seriosuly after that.
I'm not sure why that key word is missing from Joela's quote.
This. I can't take the Reboot--or DC Comics itself--seriously anymore, not when they change their own damn mind every year about the direction that want to take.
There seem to be a huge disconnect between what they want and the fans want.
Exactly. And every time the sales dorp instead of thinking "Hows'about we turn things back to the way they were before sales dropped?" they go "Let's reboot and change everything!!! Does anyone have an idea for a mega crossover event that will take at least a couple months and invade every single title?" Than there's an uprise on sales because people get curious about the new changes, then there's a decrease in sales and... Rinse. Repeat. It's a bloody cycle and I'm tired of it. I'm not paying a single penny unless I can be convinced that the material is good. Till then, Yo-ho, yo-ho and a bottle o' rum. A pirate's life for me.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm not sure why that key word is missing from Joela's quote.
I checked the link because I thought what he'd posted was, well, more or less impossible. The link was wrong, and now seems to have been corrected.
Talk about an important typo!
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Thanks. Makes more sense. You do not do something so major and then in a few years time retcon it imo. Not without angering and fracturing the fanbase. Who would ever take Dc seriosuly after that.
I'm not sure why that key word is missing from Joela's quote.
Now that's bizarre. I copied/pasted the original quote and I distinctly remember there was no not in it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hi Everyone,
I haven't read through the previous 200+ posts, so I apologize in advance if this question has already been asked.
From what I understand, there will be two Superman titles: Action Comics & Superman. Will the stories in each title be seperate (as if in two seperate worlds) or would one need to collect both titles in order to follow the story?
Thanks!
Hi Galdor,
DC's still being kind of sketchy. At least to start, it's my understanding that Action Comics and Justice League both at least start 'in the past' Which explains
After the initial Justice League arc, it will shift to 5 years later (again, AFAIK).
I think Action will be 'early Superman' and Superman will be 'modern superman' That doesn't mean they won't cross over. ("Superman must confront an enemy from his past! Read their first encounter in Action, and the rematch in Superman!")
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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CBR is now reporting that Johnathan and Martha Kent are dead and Clark has never been married to Lois in the "It's not a Reboot" DC universe.
Cutting out parts of the mythos they think they might lose in court?
But remember folks, it's not a reboot. *rolls eyes*
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Sounds like it. As stupid as the situation is, it's not a terrible decision on their part. Better to change it now in anticipation of a lost suit than to have to change crap around all of the sudden if/when they lose.
I dont know what kind of deal DC already had in place with the heirs of the creators, but personally, I think they are making a mistake in doing what they are doing. They are only going to hurt the character.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, it sounds like we're returning to 1983, comics-wise.
I was at the 1987 Chicago Comic-Con where John Byrne explained why it was useful to have Jonathan and Matha Kent still alive: it helped root Clark to his human culture, and it provided a couple of characters he could discuss the current storyline with, who could offer advice and insight.
Clark and Lois are a couple, and hopefully an honest, mature couple. Their marriage resolved a lot of the tension of "Lois trying to find out Clark's secret / Superman's identity".
CBR is now reporting that Johnathan and Martha Kent are dead and Clark has never been married to Lois in the "It's not a Reboot" DC universe.
Cutting out parts of the mythos they think they might lose in court?
But remember folks, it's not a reboot. *rolls eyes*
God forbid DC actually fork over some dough so they can use a proper Superman.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[Hi Matthew,
Thanks for the interesting info. If I'm understanding you correctly, Action Comics will take place in the past of the Superman comic? If so, I wonder what will happen if/when the Action Comics timeline catches up with the beginning of the Superman comic timeline. Will Action Comics end or start over or diverge from the Superman comic timeline?
Anyway, just some odd questions from a comics noob.
Thanks for your time!!
*shakes magic 8-ball* Answer Hazy, try again latter.
Though if my understanding is correct (and the panels we've seen for JLA #1 shows Hal saving Batman and expressing shock that 'he's real'.) I think the entire 80's run of Teen Titans has been invalidated, assuming Cyborg really is a founding member of the JLA.
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[Hi Matthew,
Thanks for the interesting info. If I'm understanding you correctly, Action Comics will take place in the past of the Superman comic? If so, I wonder what will happen if/when the Action Comics timeline catches up with the beginning of the Superman comic timeline. Will Action Comics end or start over or diverge from the Superman comic timeline?
Anyway, just some odd questions from a comics noob.
Thanks for your time!!
*shakes magic 8-ball* Answer Hazy, try again latter.
Though if my understanding is correct (and the panels we've seen for JLA #1 shows Hal saving Batman and expressing shock that 'he's real'.) I think the entire 80's run of Teen Titans has been invalidated, assuming Cyborg really is a founding member of the JLA.
But remember, kids, it's not a reboot, absolutely not. Sheesh. Did anyone else notice the similarities to the All-Star Batman meeting dialogue?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What happens to Batman Inc. ?
That I do know... on hold until 2012, when they'll finish it.
Though GL and Batman Inc sum up why this is confusing. If Superman is the first hero, then what happened to the JSA? Then did Kyle and Jade ever date? Kyle and Donna? Darkstars? If the 80's Titans are gone, then how does that affect Blackest Night. Is Renee still the Question? Why did all these heroes have such a bond with Batman if they have only been together for 'five years' etc etc etc.
After the death of Ryan Choi another blow against diversity among superheroes.
So... In the new continuity Barbara got crippled, became Oracle, got uncrippled and becomes Batgirl again. But neither Cassie nor Steph were ever Batgirl. I have a headache...
Also notice what Gail Simone says. Am I the only one that thinks she disagrees with these changes that go against all the character development that SHE DID WHILE WRITING THE CHARACTER but she is afraid that if she disagrees with DC they will take her off the book. My impression is that she thinks that she can do some damage control as long as she can keep DC from putting some James Robinson to write her character...
Having listened to Gail talk on panels today on Con, I don't think that article represents her well. For her I think it's an opportunity to write some Batgirl stories. That doesn't make Oracle stories less valuable. I'm certain we will see Oracle stories again someday.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Having listened to Gail talk on panels today on Con, I don't think that article represents her well. For her I think it's an opportunity to write some Batgirl stories. That doesn't make Oracle stories less valuable. I'm certain we will see Oracle stories again someday.
I recall seeing some comments that boil down to "Why are you complaining? You still have Proxy!" It's not been revealed how Barbara gets her groove back. My main frustration is that we have a Batgirl, two of them, in fact. We don't need 'the original'. Not to mention, Barbara's a woman, making her batgirl is (to me) a demotion. There's no reason to tie 'Oracle' to the chair. I found this Oracle Mask here, works as an example of how Oracle could still be her identity.
DC's argument that Barbara's been BG 'in all the media' doesn't fly either. With the exception of the life action series, Wally has been the Flash in all the past media, that didn't stop them. Outside of the comics, John's been Green Lantern often enough that it caused some confusion about the movie.
Matt's 'new Oracle'
Edit: To be clear, none of the claims about 'you have proxie' are not attributed to Gail.
I must be missing something, because I don't know what "You have proxy" means.
I think people are way over thinking things. This and many other changes can mostly be attributed to a new generation of writers saying "I want to write stories about the characters I grew up reading and always dreamed of writing.". Thus we get Barry Allen Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Justice League Interational, and Barbara Gordon Batgirl.
When the next generation comes along, someone will say "Let's bring back Oracle" and it'll happen. It's pretty much the way comics have gone back and forth for years.
Let's just hope nobody is really a diehard fan of electric superman.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I must be missing something, because I don't know what "You have proxy" means.
Wendy Harris, daughter of the Calculator.
During some horribly bad writing on Teen Titans, Wendy and Marvin Harris were added to the cast as caretakers for Titan's Tower. This culminated in them getting a dog (Yes, it's Wendy, Marvin and Wonder Dog!) Wonder Dog turned out to be a cohort of Ares, and rather graphically killed Marvin and put Wendy in a coma.
Wendy wakes up and is a parapaligic. She gets 'the chair' and starts mentoring under Barbara. She takes the name 'Proxy' (which is darkly ironic considering how this is the argument, she's a proxy for barbara-in-the-chair). Recently in Batgirl it was hinted that part of Wendy's paralysis is psychosomatic, and she was going to Nanda-Prabit to heal. (pre-reboot, so assume she's gone forever).
The writing was horrible. The Calcualtor kidnaps Kid Eternity to channel his son's spirit, and the Titans don't seem to notice or care. We find out in Batgirl (written by a different writer) what happened to him.
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After the death of Ryan Choi another blow against diversity among superheroes.
So... In the new continuity Barbara got crippled, became Oracle, got uncrippled and becomes Batgirl again. But neither Cassie nor Steph were ever Batgirl. I have a headache...
Also notice what Gail Simone says. Am I the only one that thinks she disagrees with these changes that go against all the character development that SHE DID WHILE WRITING THE CHARACTER but she is afraid that if she disagrees with DC they will take her off the book. My impression is that she thinks that she can do some damage control as long as she can keep DC from putting some James Robinson to write her character...
That's a fantastic article, thanks for the link.
The best of me wants to think Gail Simone is doing the best with what she was assigned, and that it's hard to have and keep a steady writing job. The worst of me thinks she's a hypocrite and a sellout. It's hard for me to reconcile those feelings.
I think you're right in that she's trying to do some sort of damage control... kind of like when Ed Greenwood helped oversee the 4E revision of the Forgotten Realms. Except 4E Forgotten Realms still sucks.
I think people are way over thinking things. This and many other changes can mostly be attributed to a new generation of writers saying "I want to write stories about the characters I grew up reading and always dreamed of writing.". Thus we get Barry Allen Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Justice League Interational, and Barbara Gordon Batgirl.
When the next generation comes along, someone will say "Let's bring back Oracle" and it'll happen. It's pretty much the way comics have gone back and forth for years.
Let's just hope nobody is really a diehard fan of electric superman.
I think you have a good point, to a degree, although in general, I don't know if the nostalgist method of comics writing is necessarily a good thing.
I am of the generation that grew up with Superfriends, but when I saw the Hall of Justice and the Legion of Doom's HQ show up in an issue of JLA a few years ago--it just felt weird--especially as there were other elements in the same story that were just gritty and dark, and trying to mesh gritty and dark with my innocent childhood memories of a favorite cartoon was... disconcerting to say the least. I think stuff like that can be done well but... well, IMO, in that case, it wasn't. It felt shoehorned in, a running gag in the middle of a bloodbath. The thing about the recent nostalgia-run over the last several years at DC is that it doesn't bring back happy memories, it just makes me frustrated and sometimes even disgusted.
There's a bizarre, sort of childish selfishness going on at DC these days. The people at the helm aren't interested in writing good stories with what they've got; they want to write the fanfiction they used to hide under their beds and tuck into their math homework when they were 10 years old, and they don't care if nobody else is or isn't interested as long as they get to play with their action figures.
I don't think Deinol's necessarily wrong about the comics cycle working the way it does, but I don't know if it's something to encourage or hope to anticipate. If Oracle comes back, I want it to be because someone really has a really good, NEW story to tell using the potential of that particular character, not because they never got to publish their BOP TV fanfic 15 years ago.
After the death of Ryan Choi another blow against diversity among superheroes.
So... In the new continuity Barbara got crippled, became Oracle, got uncrippled and becomes Batgirl again. But neither Cassie nor Steph were ever Batgirl. I have a headache...
Also notice what Gail Simone says. Am I the only one that thinks she disagrees with these changes that go against all the character development that SHE DID WHILE WRITING THE CHARACTER but she is afraid that if she disagrees with DC they will take her off the book. My impression is that she thinks that she can do some damage control as long as she can keep DC from putting some James Robinson to write her character...That's a fantastic article, thanks for the link.
The best of me wants to think Gail Simone is doing the best with what she was assigned, and that it's hard to have and keep a steady writing job. The worst of me thinks she's a hypocrite and a sellout. It's hard for me to reconcile those feelings.
I think you're right in that she's trying to do some sort of damage control... kind of like when Ed Greenwood helped oversee the 4E revision of the Forgotten Realms. Except 4E Forgotten Realms still sucks.
I think people are way over thinking things. This and many other changes can mostly be attributed to a new generation of writers saying "I want to write stories about the characters I grew up reading and always dreamed of writing.". Thus we get Barry Allen Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Justice League Interational, and Barbara Gordon Batgirl.
When the next generation comes along, someone will say "Let's bring back Oracle" and it'll happen. It's pretty much the way comics have gone back and forth for years.
Let's just hope nobody is really a diehard fan of electric superman.
I think you have a good point, to a degree, although in general, I don't know if the nostalgist method of of comics writing is necessarily a good thing.
I am of the generation that grew up with Superfriends, but when I saw the Hall of Justice and the Legion of Doom's HQ show up in an issue of JLA a few years ago--it just felt weird--especially as there were other elements in the same story that were just gritty and dark, and trying to mesh gritty and dark with my innocent childhood memories of a favorite cartoon was... disconcerting to say the least. I think stuff like that can be done well but... well, IMO, in that case, it wasn't. It felt shoehorned in, a running gag in the middle of a bloodbath. The thing about the recent nostalgia-run over the last several years at DC is that it doesn't bring back happy memories, it just makes me frustrated and sometimes even disgusted.
There's a bizarre, sort of childish selfishness going on at DC these days. The people at the helm aren't interested in writing good stories with what they've got; they want to write the fanfiction they used to hide under their beds and tuck into their math homework when they were 10 years old, and they don't care if nobody else is or isn't interested as long as they get to play with their action figures.
I don't think Deinol's necessarily wrong about the comics cycle working the way it does, but I don't know if it's something to encourage or hope to anticipate. If Oracle comes back, I want it to be because someone really has a really good, NEW story to tell using the potential of that particular character, not because they never got to publish their BOP TV fanfic 15 years ago.
Re: Bolded parts-
If there is one thing that is slowly making me walk away from American comics again, it is this.
Having listened to Gail talk on panels today on Con, I don't think that article represents her well. For her I think it's an opportunity to write some Batgirl stories. That doesn't make Oracle stories less valuable. I'm certain we will see Oracle stories again someday.I recall seeing some comments that boil down to "Why are you complaining? You still have Proxy!" It's not been revealed how Barbara gets her groove back. My main frustration is that we have a Batgirl, two of them, in fact. We don't need 'the original'. Not to mention, Barbara's a woman, making her batgirl is (to me) a demotion. There's no reason to tie 'Oracle' to the chair. I found this Oracle Mask here, works as an example of how Oracle could still be her identity.
DC's argument that Barbara's been BG 'in all the media' doesn't fly either. With the exception of the life action series, Wally has been the Flash in all the past media, that didn't stop them. Outside of the comics, John's been Green Lantern often enough that it caused some confusion about the movie.
Matt's 'new Oracle'
** spoiler omitted **...
Still have no idea why they never did this for Oracle in the first place.
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I must be missing something, because I don't know what "You have proxy" means.
I think people are way over thinking things. This and many other changes can mostly be attributed to a new generation of writers saying "I want to write stories about the characters I grew up reading and always dreamed of writing.". Thus we get Barry Allen Flash, Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Justice League Interational, and Barbara Gordon Batgirl.
When the next generation comes along, someone will say "Let's bring back Oracle" and it'll happen. It's pretty much the way comics have gone back and forth for years.
Let's just hope nobody is really a diehard fan of electric superman.
The biggest thing for me, IMO is that the history is getting convuluted. Not saying it wasn't already, just now it's muddied even worse.
Let's take a random joe, say... Me. And let's assume he has basic knowledge of DC comics, is a fan but not exactly a repository of knowledge. He knows the general backstories of most major characters, the general plots and timeline of the setting, and a few specific characters very well. Now set him in a room with two guys who live and breathe DC, and he quickly loses ground in keeping up with the conversation. Let's say these two guys are debating the actions of Prometheus in an arc called Cry Justice (I think that was the name). Problem for me is I know of Prometheus well enough, but all of the extra things I don't know changes my understanding of the comic plot. These other two guys are arguing over the smallest things that change perception.
My point is that is what happens with 50+ years of history. DC and Marvel are notorious for their attempts to reinvent themselves to stay relevant. Sadly that has broken down to Reboots in DC and Giant spit in your face wars for Marvel. Both approaches to changing things up are terrible. The problem with DC reboots are the fact that they keep happening and changing things seemingly randomly.
Here's my thoughts. AT this point a reboot isn't terrible or the worse thing ever, however if you plan on rebooting don't take a half-measure. There is tons of confusion on what will be canon and what won't, and therein lies the issue. They need to embrace the reboot or don't do it, since it just makes everything hard to follow.
I must be missing something, because I don't know what "You have proxy" means.
Wendy Harris, daughter of the Calculator.
Ah, I haven't been paying much attention to Teen Titans since Bart left. I've been meaning to catch up and see if they are doing anything with Blue Beetle, but haven't been that ambitious yet. Proxy also wasn't mentioned in the article that was being discussed, so it seemed to come out of nowhere to me.
I think too many people are taking the fact that DC hasn't announced everything that will be going after the reboot and thinking the current fan confusion translates into editorial confusion at DC. I actually like that they are keeping a lot of stuff secret. I hate it when there are so many spoilers about comics coming out that there isn't a point in actually reading the books.
Yes, the worst case scenario of the "writing the characters of my youth" phenomena is that you get what amounts to professional fan fiction. On the other hand, if a good writer uses the best of the ideas they've had for 20-30 years in their head, maybe we'll get fantastic stories.
So I prefer a wait and see attitude. The reality is, with 52 titles some will be awesome and some will suck. You just can't get hit a home run every time. But I'm going to judge each story on its own merit, not on my own preconceptions of how things should go. Batgirl is indeed a terrible Oracle story. But will it be a good Batgirl story? We'll know soon enough.
I didn't manage to see many panels at Comic Con, and I haven't tracked down what was revealed in the 52 panels. I will say that "What Women Want in their Female Science-Fiction" panel with Gail Simone (and others) was the best panel I went to at Con. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I haven't read anything from her that I didn't like. I'm not worried very much about Batgirl. I worry about what Birds of Prey will be like without Gail's influence.
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I didn't manage to see many panels at Comic Con, and I haven't tracked down what was revealed in the 52 panels. I will say that "What Women Want in their Female Science-Fiction" panel with Gail Simone (and others) was the best panel I went to at Con. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because I haven't read anything from her that I didn't like. I'm not worried very much about Batgirl. I worry about what Birds of Prey will be like without Gail's influence.
I've been getting caught up with Secret Six in the trades, and enjoy her work on BoP.
I don't worry how Ms. Simone will handle Batgirl or Firestorm (there's another continuity mess in the post flashpoint universe). I just don't like losing books (Secret Six) and characters (Titans, Stephanie) that I enjoy. It's not that Batgirl's been cancelled and I can still read about Stephanie in (for example) a 'Titan's East' book. It's that it's all gone. I think DC should have just gone Ultimates.
I've actually dropped all my DC books come September as a form of protest. This is even though I'd love a Nightwing book. DC has 'blown up' my universe (and maybe my childhood) so I'm taking my C-bills and going home.
Aside, it doesn't help that Barbara-Gordon-as-Batgirl fans get This to help their arguments ;-)
I just don't like losing books (Secret Six) and characters (Titans, Stephanie) that I enjoy. It's not that Batgirl's been cancelled and I can still read about Stephanie in (for example) a 'Titan's East' book. It's that it's all gone. I think DC should have just gone Ultimates.
I've actually dropped all my DC books come September as a form of protest. This is even though I'd love a Nightwing book. DC has 'blown up' my universe (and maybe my childhood) so I'm taking my C-bills and going home.
I can certainly understand that. I follow Booster Gold, Flash, and Power Girl. I'm losing two of those titles. But I get Blue Beetle back, and Justice League: Booster Gold edition, so I can't complain that much. I even get Bart back in Teen Titans, so I'll likely give that a try again.
At least the good news is Stephanie will be in the new DCU eventually, everything I've read indicates that they want to establish other things before they reintroduce her. So I'd expect to see her in a book with Red Robin in 6 months to a year.
But the reality is, they need to do something to bring new readers in. I saw some numbers, and a top title in the 80's would sell 500,000 copies. Top titles these days sell 50,000 copies. So while DC has strong characters that should be keeping them alive, comic books are still dying. So they are trying to revitalize their lines and bring in the people who haven't been to a comic shop in a long while, if ever.
The best news I've heard from Con is that they have no plans for a giant crossover in the immediate future. I hope they stick to that for a while. I think the easiest way to get newcomers into comics is to make them feel like they can follow a single title without getting lost. If the story you are reading is interrupted every year by Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Mega Crisis, Flashpoint, etc, it becomes really hard to stay engaged. Sure, it sells lots of comics to diehard collectors. But it kills off the casual fans.
Of course, if they really want to strengthen their brand it would help if they could make a movie (other than Batman) that didn't suck. Marvel hasn't hit everything out of the park, but they've done 3x as many movies in the last decade. Some of those have been gold.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I wonder if the editorial board at DC (whoever it is, making these decisions) is as professional as their predecessors twenty or thirty years ago.
"Crisis on Infinite Earths" was groundbreaking and a risky move, to seperate the ongoing storylines from their past continuities. The birth of the Silver Age itself was a likewise daring move.
I can't imagine Gardner Fox or Julie Schwartz retro-spinning the product line so that they could write new stories of the continuity from 15 years previous.
Ok, I read elsewhere (can't find the link again, sorry) that Ryan Choi will be the Atom in the DCnU.
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.
But the reality is, they need to do something to bring new readers in. I saw some numbers, and a top title in the 80's would sell 500,000 copies. Top titles these days sell 50,000 copies. So while DC has strong characters that should be keeping them alive, comic books are still dying. So they are trying to revitalize their lines and bring in the people who haven't been to a comic shop in a long while, if ever.
Comics have gone from a product you could pick up in the line at the checkout in almost any store in the country to something you must hunt down in specialty stores that do not exist in a great many communities and are mostly started by people who apparently really, really hate making money. They're also places that rightly or wrongly are rather unappealing to new customers.
But comic-style stories (by which I mean serial action dramas, with optional scifi and fantasy tropes) are at least as popular as they ever were. They just aren't primarily consumed in monthly brochures featuring over-muscled people in spandex slapping each other. (I like comics a lot and I don't like the monthly grind and so do my best to skip it. Even stories I really like featuring characters I really care about don't give me enough once monthly to maintain interest.) Instead people watch BSG or Lost or 24 or Supernatural or Doctor Who. I suspect part of that is there's just more media competition than there used to be, but some of it also seems to be how absolutely fixated people are on the Adam West Batman image of superheroes which is, admittedly, uninspiring for anything but its camp value and the wonderful retirement the man has had poking fun at himself.
I don't know what the solution to that is.
Comics have gone from a product you could pick up in the line at the checkout in almost any store in the country to something you must hunt down in specialty stores that do not exist in a great many communities and are mostly started by people who apparently really, really hate making money. They're also places that rightly or wrongly are rather unappealing to new customers.
But the reality is, they need to do something to bring new readers in. I saw some numbers, and a top title in the 80's would sell 500,000 copies. Top titles these days sell 50,000 copies. So while DC has strong characters that should be keeping them alive, comic books are still dying. So they are trying to revitalize their lines and bring in the people who haven't been to a comic shop in a long while, if ever.
There's also a matter that the Golden Age was notorious for not caring very much at all about continuity. While it might have frustrated die hard fans, it was easier for people to casually pick up a copy and get what was going on--and if something didn't mesh with last month's issue, oh well. Issues--to the best of my knowledge--were more episodic, with stories starting and ending within the issue, or were shorter serials. They were newbie friendly because they always bore in mind some kid might be picking up a copy in the grocery store.
The big comics publishers got themselves into a kind of bind, I think, when they became increasingly invested two things--the ongoing storyline, and the mega-crossover. Suddenly you couldn't just pick up an issue here and there and keep up--you needed to "collect'em all" or you were screwed. So you either had to dedicate yourself to buying every issue--perhaps of multiple titles--which becomes suddenly a MUCH bigger financial commitment than just buying one copy of something every few months. They alienated the casual buyer--who probably contributed more significantly to sales than recognized--in favor of the hardcore but regular sales--important, but growing smaller and smaller.
From a broad point of view, it makes SENSE to change formats a little and revamp the publications so that someone might just be able to pick up an issue and figure out who is who and what is going on. It makes SENSE dispose of a lot of bugbears that might appeal to hardcore fans but turns away new and casual readers.
I agree with Deinol that DC needed to do something address this problem. But I think DC is going utterly the wrong way about it---just look at it, the way they're leading up to the reboot is yet another confusing, expensive megacrossover (Flashpoint) which would only alienate a potential new reader rather than draw her or him in.
I wrote a lengthy piece on my blog--which I'd link to if Livejournal was actually working right now--that in a way, the DC Reboot smacks to me much of D&D 4th Edition (PLEASE NO EDITION WARS; I'VE GOT A POINT TO MAKE BUT I AM NOT TRYING TO DISS 4E. THANK YOU). When 4E was being designed, Hasbro/WotC were very aware 3.x was convoluted and complicated, not easy to teach to your average 12 year old newbie who might become the next generation of dedicated customers. They had an understandable desire to clean the slate so as to present 4E as something accessible to new players. However, 4E was marketed and presented in such a way that, in a long story short, angered a lot of 3.x fans and made them feel alienated from the new product. Now, ultimately, D&D 4E succeeded--wildly--in attracting the new players it wanted. But at the same time, many previous customers STOPPED supporting D&D. Ultimately, the goal SHOULD have been to try to appeal to existing AND new fans--but 4E more swapped a new set of fans for old ones (of course there are a lot of 3.x fans who play 4E now, and exclusively, but my sense is it not as many as hoped for).
I think DC is going down a similar route--they are discarding SO MUCH that attracts their old fanbase, while telling their fanbase that it will be "much cooler," that ultimately sure, they may gain new readers--but at a proportion to the readers they lose---and thus, may not net much of anything significant, in the long run, anyway. Of course, this is pure speculation, but hopefully not entirely baseless.
DC has tried attempts to create mini-lines of comics--such as All-Stars, which are more standalone and continuity independent--but the thing is, I don't think they did a very good job marketing it. I think if someone wanted to make comics mainstream again, it would be a matter of good marketing to the public, getting major places to distribute your stuff---AND making it accessible, without weighing it down with required continuity knowledge of 20 years. And frankly, that's not an easy job. I wouldn't say it's impossible, however.
But comic-style stories (by which I mean serial action dramas, with optional scifi and fantasy tropes) are at least as popular as they ever were. They just aren't primarily consumed in monthly brochures featuring over-muscled people in spandex slapping each other. (I like comics a lot and I don't like the monthly grind and so do my best to skip it. Even stories I really like featuring characters I really care about don't give me enough once monthly to maintain interest.) Instead people watch BSG or Lost or 24 or Supernatural or Doctor Who. I suspect part of that is there's just more media competition than there used to be, but some of it also seems to be how absolutely fixated people are on the Adam West Batman image of superheroes which is, admittedly, uninspiring for anything but its camp value and the wonderful retirement the man has had poking fun at himself.I don't know what the solution to that is.
Actually, I think the one thing DC is doing RIGHT is their implementation of digital distribution. Although it's satisfying to have those floppies in hand---this bypasses the "but I can only buy this in a comic shop" issue and makes it a lot more accessible to the general public--indeed, in a way television and other streaming video is.
There's also a matter that the Golden Age was notorious for not caring very much at all about continuity. While it might have frustrated die hard fans, it was easier for people to casually pick up a copy and get what was going on--and if something didn't mesh with last month's issue, oh well. Issues--to the best of my knowledge--were more episodic, with stories starting and ending within the issue, or were shorter serials. They were newbie friendly because they always bore in mind some kid might be picking up a copy in the grocery store.
While not the Golden Age, I'm currently reading through The Essential Hulk volume 3, which reprints stories from the late 1960s and early 1970s. Those stories typically pick up immediately after another leaves off, with a quick recap on the first page that gets the reader up to speed. Most importantly, though, is the fact that the stories were typically resolved in one or two issues. Sure, longer story arcs did exist, but the immediate story often got resolved quickly, meaning that you could pick up a couple of issues and enjoy them without having to worry about buying six to twelve issues or waiting for them to be collected in trade.
Given the iconic nature of many comic book characters, I think Marvel and DC would benefit greatly from taking a "continuity-lite" approach - keep the character development from arc to arc, sure, but don't worry about extraneous details that can't be summarized quickly. People who pick up a Superman comic already have an idea of what Superman is like; they don't necessarily want to know every detail about the past year or two of comics just to read the current story.
The big comics publishers got themselves into a kind of bind, I think, when they became increasingly invested two things--the ongoing storyline, and the mega-crossover.
I don't think ongoing storylines were necessarily the problem. Again, those were present in the Silver Age, but in a different form. You'd have a story progressing in a direction, but it could be broken into smaller one- or two-issue chunks that could stand alone. Modern comics, unfortunately, don't have many stand alone stories because they are writing for the trade. Comics aren't being written for people who pick them up monthly, but rather for those who pick up the trade paperback six months down the line.
I do agree that crossover events are annoying. They draw in the diehard fans, but they can easily turn off the casual fan. It's especially a pain if you've got a title that you like that is suddenly derailed to fit into the crossover.
Except that DC isn't really doing anything to revamp the storylines to make them more accessible. They're starting over with Issue #1, but there's still plenty of character relationships and background there, it's just that now no one is quite sure what it is.
My understanding is the point is that enough has been wiped clean that a newb will be able to pick up what's going on.
You're right in that DC has been hideously unclear about what is changing and what isn't, especially with statements like "This is not a reboot, nothing's changed that month" and then following it with, "oh, by the way, Wonder Girl is a thief now, and Barbara Gordon was never shot."
Nor is there any evidence that they're planning to move to a more episodic story format, so in a couple of years they will be right back where they started.
Sorry I was unclear---I was saying that's what SHOULD be done. I agree that they are probably not going to do that, and thus not going to fix one of their problems.
I'm divided on the hardcore vs casual. Simple episodic stories may lure casual readers in, but they won't come back if that's all there is. What can be done in one ~20 page comic is fairly limited. Fight scene and a couple of jokes. OTOH, the mega crossover events are too often really bad and do require too much investment to follow.
I think a happy medium COULD be found though. You could have two or three issue storylines rather than 24 issue storylines spread across six titles.
Whether they will do that remains to be seen.
I suspect most of the casual readership in the past was kids and that's a market that has been too much left behind. For the casual readers, I'd concentrate on separate lines for kids (DC's Animated line may be like this, Marvel has some as well) and try to get them back where kids will be run into them: supermarkets, convenience stores and the like.
Tiny Titans is one of the best comics DC publishes. Seriously. But the kids' books are shoved in an off-to-the-side shelf in most comic shops I go to--you're right, they need to be marketed much more vigorously. If DC doesn't have the money, surely Big Brothers Warner could figure out something as, done right, it could be quite lucrative.
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My ideas to help DC boost sales:
~Same day digital comics is a fine idea, but if I have to pay the same price for the digital as the hardcopy, you wont be selling me digital. Lower the price.
~More agressive marketing.
~Try to get more shops in smaller communities to stock comics (card shops, coin shops, gaming stores, etc).
~Release more movies with characters other than Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern. Sure, theyve done Watchmen, Constantine, Sin City, and Jonah Hex, but unless your actually into comics, you probably dont know those are DC titles. Let alone the fact that Sin City and Watchmen are completed works and dont put out new stuff. You buy what there is, then no more sales.
Marvel does this one very well. Even if the movie isnt very good (X3 for example) you cant tell me there are more people who stopped buying X-Men comics than who started buying X-Men comics cause of the movie.
~Take to heart what your fanbase says. They write your paycheck, after all.
I haven't been following all the press, but it doesn't sound like a clean reboot to me, or the status quo. They've still got the whole Bat family (Bruce, Barbara, Dick, Tim, & Jason at least), so either the history is the same, so it's not a reboot and a newb will be just as clueless or the history is changed and the longtime fan will be just as in the dark as the newb.
You're forgetting Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Damien Wayne, and extended family members Helena Bertinelli, Azrael, Kathy Kane (Batwoman), Renee Montoya (the Question), and there are probably others I am forgetting.
And very little news on Cass Cain and Steph Brown in particular whether they will show up (I think Helena might be in JLI?). I can't find the article now for which I apologize, but I did read somewhere that they said very clearly that Cass Cain and Steph Brown had never been Batgirl, and Barbara had never been shot. Those alone are a major alteration to the fabric of how the Gothamverse has been woven. Now, it is possible these items are untrue or I misread. If they are true, that is IS a major alteration to the history.
Longtime fans may be "in the dark" but the confusing part is that sometimes DC is saying not very much is changing, and other times that a lot is changing--so fans don't know what to expect or what knowledge to bring with them. If it was easy as "don't bring any knowledge" there are things that would be a lot clearer about what's going on with this.
The kids books really need to be out of comic books stores. Online might work. Better to have them somewhere the kids can grab them in passing and nag their parents into buying them. It's not even marketing really, it's making them available for impulse buys.
Where they get distributed and made visible IS marketing. :) It's part of it. It's sending distributors incentives and displays to put things up prominently, amongst other things. It does require planning and money on the publisher's part.
Also I don't see why the kids' books should be removed from comic stores--they just need to be sold elsewhere as well.
~Release more movies with characters other than Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern. Sure, theyve done Watchmen, Constantine, Sin City, and Jonah Hex, but unless your actually into comics, you probably dont know those are DC titles. Let alone the fact that Sin City and Watchmen are completed works and dont put out new stuff. You buy what there is, then no more sales.
Marvel does this one very well. Even if the movie isnt very good (X3 for example) you cant tell me there are more people who stopped buying X-Men comics than who started buying X-Men comics cause of the movie.
What?
1) Complete series movies. DC/Marvel makes money on royalties from the sale of the movie. Also they make money on people going out and buying the graphic novels. It's like saying you shouldn't make movies of Jules Verne novels because they are standalone and he is dead.2) Make more movies with characters other than majorly recognizable names? That will go well. Hell, the movie this summer was the first major movie property with Green Lantern. He has been on direct-to-dvd stuff and the John Stewart Lantern was on JLA but there is basically never anything with the Lanterns. And who cares if anyone knows what titles a property belongs to? That's really irrelevant to how many people see the movie or who likes it. That's all marketing and production value - which was awful for Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, and Constantine, and even Watchmen really. Batman and Superman are big names. They don't care if people buy comic books after seeing those movies, they still get the royalties out of the merchandising. Ever see batman comics or novels promoted at a book store during a Batman release? I haven't. And they do big names because they are big names. More people will go see it with less marketing. The smaller the name, the higher the marketing costs. Even a Flash movie would require more marketing - and with half of everyone thinking it is Flash Gordon. Plus, there is only so much you can saturate the film industry with before the whole comic thing sinks itself. How many more Green Lantern stinkers do you think it will take to kill comic book movies for nearly a decade? The general non-comic buying populace is not going to go see a Martian Manhunter movie or or an Antman & Wasp movie. And those are major characters in the groups! No one would go see a Nick Fury movie if it wasn't for Sam Jackson being Nick Fury, and they aren't making one anyway.
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What?
1) Complete series movies. DC/Marvel makes money on royalties from the sale of the movie. Also they make money on people going out and buying the graphic novels. It's like saying you shouldn't make movies of Jules Verne novels because they are standalone and he is dead.2) Make more movies with characters other than majorly recognizable names? That will go well. Hell, the movie this summer was the first major movie property with Green Lantern. He has been on direct-to-dvd stuff and the John Stewart Lantern was on JLA but there is basically never anything with the Lanterns. And who cares if anyone knows what titles a property belongs to? That's really irrelevant to how many people see the movie or who likes it. That's all marketing and production value - which was awful for Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, and Constantine, and even Watchmen really. Batman and Superman are big names. They don't care if people buy comic books after seeing those movies, they still get the royalties out of the merchandising. Ever see batman comics or novels promoted at a book store during a Batman release? I haven't. And they do big names because they are big names. More people will go see it with less marketing. The smaller the name, the higher the marketing costs. Even a Flash movie would require more marketing - and with half of everyone thinking it is Flash Gordon. Plus, there is only so much you can saturate the film...
I know they get royalties for movies and graphic novels for stuff like Watchmen. Thats fantastic. The point Im making is that Watchmen is ONE VOUME. It costs you $20-30 to get the entire thing in TPB, and thats all there is. However, if they made a Flash movie (and I would be willing to put money the percentage of people who would think The Flash = Flash Gordon would be shrinking every year), then not only do they get movie royalties and everything else they get from Watchmen (which is likely a bad comparison for my point, considering Watchment is like the most popular TPB ever), theyre also likely to land a bunch of new subscribers to the monthly comic, which is income that Watchmen cant bring them.
And yea, I get that they have to market it correctly, and itll probably be difficult, but you cant make money without spending money.
Lastly, yes, Ive seen comics/books promoted during a release of a movie. I dont know if you didnt enter a bookstore ever during the days getting up to and after the release of Watchmen, but every bookstore I entered had a big display for it. And I live in a small town. Same goes for The Dark Knight, Iron Man, Thor, Superman Returns, etc.