deinol |
The more I think about it, the more I'm certain this will end up being a giant mess. Unless they spent the last 6-8 months building a giant new continuity bible and then actually force all the writers to stick to it (for more than the first 6 months) eventually someone will mess up and then we have Power Girl coming from Atlantis or Jason Todd is alive because Superboy punched a wall.
deinol |
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:I do think Liefield hate is more than a bit ouroborean.Could be worse.
Rob Liefield could be doing Bat Man.
People pay attention to artists and writers in comics. They can make or break a series. So I don't blame people for disliking artists who consistently draw in a style that is polarizing to fans.
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM wrote:Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:I do think Liefield hate is more than a bit ouroborean.Could be worse.
Rob Liefield could be doing Bat Man.People pay attention to artists and writers in comics. They can make or break a series. So I don't blame people for disliking artists who consistently draw in a style that is polarizing to fans.
never said he was an amazing artist or anything like that, just that the hate gets to be too much, even for me- most recently I encountered someone who hated his art solely because someone else told him to. Also, i have issues with the "no comic is better than a bad comic" line of reasoning, but that's just me.
LazarX |
One thing that bothers me is how confusing it all seems, they claim it's a reboot, yet there will apparently be ties to what came before:
Bruce decides/realizes he is the one true Batman, meaning those who were Bats while he was dead actually were.
I is confused. I thought it turned out that he never was dead, and that the Black Lantern "Batman" was made from a clone.
Paul Watson |
That's probably because you've never seen your favorite character murdered due to a 6 month run of low sales.
Oh, please. Superheroes shrug off being murdered like you shrug off a slight cold. When they die, come back, die, come back as a zombie, die, come back, get replaced by a newer model, who then dies, and then die again to make way for the Silver Age version who has the personality of a piece of white bread (apologies to white bread), then you can complain. ;-)
Freehold DM |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's probably because you've never seen your favorite character murdered due to a 6 month run of low sales.
I'm a green lantern fan. Every GL I've ever liked has been slaughtered horribly in some way, and the one GL I truly dislike remains the fair-haired golden child, unassailable in every way, shape and form.
Matthew Winn |
Thank you Knight ErrantJr
I've been considering buying M&M just for the DC stuff.(I already have DC Heroes and DC Universe so why not go for a troika)
One more question are the DC books written for 3rd edition or 2nd?
If I recall correctly, the DC books are technically their own system. They have all the rules self-contained in the "Heroes and Villains" book. When I compared them, the DC book looked almost exactly like 3rd edition, despite coming out a year prior.
I believe it was their testing grounds for the new rules to see how people reacted to them without getting too invested, much in the same way that WotC used Star Wars to test the d20 format before 3e.
Seeing as how Beta 3rd ed continued on for almost a year after DC came out, I'm sure there are still quite a few differences. AKA. a same engine, different color scheme kinda metaphor.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
That's probably because you've never seen your favorite character murdered due to a 6 month run of low sales.
Ryan Choi fan I take it?
One of the things I've enjoyed about the rebooted New Mutants is Dani Moonstar. they've not re-empowered her, or made her a vampire or anything. While the writers could do better, (She *does* have SHIELD training, and the use of bows over pistols borders on the stereotypical) it's character *advancement* not rebooting.
Spanky the Leprechaun |
Spanky the Leprechaun |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
and this will be my newly revamped Green Lantern
a tiger shark, floating from panel to panel in a cube of green gelatin, and all the supervillains will have to pause from whatever world destroying hijinks they're about, utterly baffled as they try to decide if this is truly art......
Freehold DM |
deinol wrote:That's probably because you've never seen your favorite character murdered due to a 6 month run of low sales.Ryan Choi fan I take it?
Indeed, that was BS, and one of the main reasons why I hate DC fans, even though I am often lumped in with them. The whole thing disgusted me for reasons that I will not get into here. If you want to talk more about it, e-mail me. My e-mail is in my profile.
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM wrote:Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:I do think Liefield hate is more than a bit ouroborean.Could be worse.
Rob Liefield could be doing Bat Man.I don't pretend to know what this statement even means.
I know that a snake eats itsself or something, but in my defense.....
Van Gogh comparisons are hardly fair, regardless of who the artist is.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Matthew Morris wrote:Indeed, that was BS, and one of the main reasons why I hate DC fans, even though I am often lumped in with them. The whole thing disgusted me for reasons that I will not get into here. If you want to talk more about it, e-mail me. My e-mail is in my profile.deinol wrote:That's probably because you've never seen your favorite character murdered due to a 6 month run of low sales.Ryan Choi fan I take it?
I'll shoot an e-mail when I get home, but I was more disappointed by them killing him (because of lack of knowlege of the character) than angry. Though I understand the anger of his fans.
Thought Process at DC:
Dido: Hey, we need to show these new Titans are evil.
Writers: Well, Deathstroke blew up a city. Cheshire blew up a country. Osiris was involved with Black Adam who started a war...
Dido: No, we need to show they're evil! What superhero can they kill?
Johns: Well I want to bring back Ray Palmer, so can we get rid of the 'All New Atom'? Two atoms are confusing.
Dido: Well you have Jay, Wally, Bart and now Barry as the Flash.
Johns: I'm working on fixing that too.
Dido: Ok, we'll kill the 'all new Atom' What kind of stupid name is 'Choi' anyway. Palmer sounds much more inclusive.
Though I did like Doris Zeul's (Gail's?) revenge in Secret Six. :-)"His name was Ryan, you sick son of a b%$!%!"
Stewart Perkins |
DM Wellard wrote:Thank you Knight ErrantJr
I've been considering buying M&M just for the DC stuff.(I already have DC Heroes and DC Universe so why not go for a troika)
One more question are the DC books written for 3rd edition or 2nd?
If I recall correctly, the DC books are technically their own system. They have all the rules self-contained in the "Heroes and Villains" book. When I compared them, the DC book looked almost exactly like 3rd edition, despite coming out a year prior.
I believe it was their testing grounds for the new rules to see how people reacted to them without getting too invested, much in the same way that WotC used Star Wars to test the d20 format before 3e.
Seeing as how Beta 3rd ed continued on for almost a year after DC came out, I'm sure there are still quite a few differences. AKA. a same engine, different color scheme kinda metaphor.
M&M 3e and DC Adventures are 99% the same rules. The books are exactly the same overrall except the following:
- DC pictures vs. M&M pictures
- DC Characters as examples (Except Princess and the Batman guy they are the example created characters in both)
- M&M 3e features all the errata fixed from DC Adventures
- DC adventures is more expensive, hardback, with stats for the major DC characters (like 7 heroes and 7 villians) while there are just the example characters in the M&M 3e book and its cheaper and softback
Same system and everything, We use them side by side and the two books are basically identical otherwise.
The new heroes and Villians book (and the second one if it ever hits) is just chock full of like 300+ character write ups including alternates and what not (all of the various flashes, and lanterns, etc) Looks like a good book if you play, just for the ability to get stats.
Matthew Winn |
DC adventures is more expensive, hardback, with stats for the major DC characters (like 7 heroes and 7 villians) while there are just the example characters in the M&M 3e book and its cheaper and softback
Same system and everything, We use them side by side and the two books are basically identical otherwise.
The new heroes and Villians book (and the second one if it ever hits) is just chock full of like 300+ character write ups including alternates and what not (all of the various flashes, and lanterns, etc) Looks like a good book if you play, just for the ability to get stats.
Are the original 7 heroes/villains appearing in the new book? If so, I could skip the core and just use my M&M 3e book to save money then. I was interested, but didn't want to spring for what was essentially the same book.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Bleeding Cool reports More Info
My thoughts:
Justice League- The flagship title of the New 52. Jim Lee joked that if Geoff Johns had been there, Geoff would have said that he had always wanted to work with Jim. The three keywords here are Heart, Humor and Heroics. The first arc of this book takes place 5 years in the past and serves as a Year One story for the Justice League. In story, up until this point, there have been no ‘super-heroes’, just super powered individuals who have sometimes been viewed with suspicion. By banding together, the Justice League wants to show the world that they are deserving the moniker of super-hero.
So the Justice society doesn't exist post reboot?
Mister Terrific- While they decided to rest the concept of the JSA, they are going to be using the characters elsewhere.
Or maybe they do, or maybe there are members. Still, the comments on Justice League pretty much say the Society can't exist (unless, in true comic book fashion they were forgotten, or MAYBE Smallville style.)
Then there's this.
At this point, Dan Didio went on a tangent to explain that DC wanted to let go of the past and move forward. Any changes in continuity would be addressed in-story as needed, but that they really didn’t want to get bogged down so these reveals would be gradual and as they make sense in the story. There is a document in the DC offices that fleshes out exactly what has and hasn’t happened in the New 52 Universe. As an example, the Death of Superman storyline has occurred. See Batgirl below for another example.
Shorter Didio. "Continuity? Phsaw who needs it!"
Birds of Prey- Barbara Gordon will still be part of the book.
Red Hood and the Outlaws- One of the most requested characters for a book is Jason Todd as an anti-hero.
So she's part of the book and not on the cover. 'Most requested'? By whom.
Teen Titans- All four Robins star or co-star in a book. (I know, what about Stephanie Brown? It was hinted that we would see her in Batman Incorporated. Dan Didio said she worked better as Spoiler.) This book is Tim Drake’s showcase. There will be some synergy between this and Superboy.
So Stephanie doesn't count as a Robin anymore. (Or a Batgirl for that matter). Still no comments about how Superboy ties into Death of superman, Young Justice, etc. "Continuity? Who needs it!"
They are taking Static out of Dakota and putting him in New York City and letting him interact with the heroes of the DCU.
You know, because no superheroes can ever travel outside the east coast. It's not like they can fly, have superspeed, or teleportation. "We felt that Dakota was too hard for your average comic artist to draw, so we put him in New York."
Hawk and Dove- Jim Lee talked about how much passion Rob Leifeld is bringing to the title.
"My passion is pouches. Feet and anatomy? Not so much."
EileenProphetofIstus |
The new heroes and Villians book (and the second one if it ever hits) is just chock full of like 300+ character write ups including alternates and what not (all of the various flashes, and lanterns, etc) Looks like a good book if you play, just for the ability to get stats.
Did this book cover any Legion of Super-Heroes members or their villians.
Freehold DM |
Bleeding Cool reports More Info
My thoughts:
Justice League- The flagship title of the New 52. Jim Lee joked that if Geoff Johns had been there, Geoff would have said that he had always wanted to work with Jim. The three keywords here are Heart, Humor and Heroics. The first arc of this book takes place 5 years in the past and serves as a Year One story for the Justice League. In story, up until this point, there have been no ‘super-heroes’, just super powered individuals who have sometimes been viewed with suspicion. By banding together, the Justice League wants to show the world that they are deserving the moniker of super-hero.So the Justice society doesn't exist post reboot?
Okay. I always try to be fair at first. So I'll let this one go. Still, Heart, Humor and Heroics? Am I reading DC or Invincible? Ah well.
Mister Terrific- While they decided to rest the concept of the JSA, they are going to be using the characters elsewhere.
Or maybe they do, or maybe there are members. Still, the comments on Justice League pretty much say the Society can't exist (unless, in true comic book fashion they were forgotten, or MAYBE Smallville style.)
Mister Terrific gets his own book? Wha?
Then there's this.
At this point, Dan Didio went on a tangent to explain that DC wanted to let go of the past and move forward. Any changes in continuity would be addressed in-story as needed, but that they really didn’t want to get bogged down so these reveals would be gradual and as they make sense in the story. There is a document in the DC offices that fleshes out exactly what has and hasn’t happened in the New 52 Universe. As an example, the Death of Superman storyline has occurred. See Batgirl below for another example.
Shorter Didio. "Continuity? Phsaw who needs it!"
We may disagree in a few areas, MM, but this is not one of them. I'm getting a warm, wet feeling spreading from the top of my head and down the back of my neck in thin, pungent fingers, and I don't recall hearing anything about rain in the forecast.
Birds of Prey- Barbara Gordon will still be part of the book.
Red Hood and the Outlaws- One of the most requested characters for a book is Jason Todd as an anti-hero.
So she's part of the So she's part of the book and not on the cover. 'Most requested'? By whom.
So far, the only thing I'm interested in is Jason Todd being treated as something other than an embarrasment, which I never thought was very fair to the character.
BC wrote:
Teen Titans- All four Robins star or co-star in a book. (I know, what about Stephanie Brown? It was hinted that we would see her in Batman Incorporated. Dan Didio said she worked better as Spoiler.) This book is Tim Drake’s showcase. There will be some synergy between this and Superboy.So Stephanie doesn't count as a Robin anymore. (Or a Batgirl for that matter). Still no comments about how Superboy ties into Death of superman, Young Justice, etc. "Continuity? Who needs it!"
That's just weird. So there's a TEAM of Robins running around? Strange.
Static Shock- wrote:
They are taking Static out of Dakota and putting him in New York City and letting him interact with the heroes of the DCU.You know, because no superheroes can ever travel outside the east coast. It's not like they can fly, have superspeed, or teleportation. "We felt that Dakota was too hard for your average comic artist to draw, so we put him in New York."
This is an old issue. People were upset back in the day that black superheroes had to get their own town to save while their white counterparts were in places we all know and love. I'm willing to let this one pass.
BC wrote:
Hawk and Dove- Jim Lee talked about how much passion Rob Leifeld is bringing to the title."My passion is pouches. Feet and anatomy? Not so much."
As I have said before, Liefield's art is far from good, but most people are going far overboard when it comes to haterating on him, and this is me talking.
KnightErrantJR |
Are the original 7 heroes/villains appearing in the new book? If so, I could skip the core and just use my M&M 3e book to save money then. I was interested, but didn't want to spring for what was essentially the same book.
Yes, the original characters presented in the Hero's Handbook will be in Heroes and Villains, and in fact they have a few tweaks based on some of the comments on the forums about what may or may not have been included in their stat blocks.
The only downside to what you want to do is that you'll be waiting until Volume Two for people that fall after "K" in the alphabet.
EileenProphetofIstus |
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:Several Legion members plus the Fatal Five, off the top of my head. And if you count the Great Darkness Saga, you've got Darkseid in there as well. ;)
Did this book cover any Legion of Super-Heroes members or their villians.
Thank you, it just made my buy list.
Spanky the Leprechaun |
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:Van Gogh comparisons are hardly fair, regardless of who the artist is.Freehold DM wrote:Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:I do think Liefield hate is more than a bit ouroborean.Could be worse.
Rob Liefield could be doing Bat Man.I don't pretend to know what this statement even means.
I know that a snake eats itsself or something, but in my defense.....
Life's not fair.
You know how I can tell?Liefeld gets a jeans ad!
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM wrote:Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:Van Gogh comparisons are hardly fair, regardless of who the artist is.Freehold DM wrote:Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:I do think Liefield hate is more than a bit ouroborean.Could be worse.
Rob Liefield could be doing Bat Man.I don't pretend to know what this statement even means.
I know that a snake eats itsself or something, but in my defense.....Life's not fair.
You know how I can tell?Liefeld gets a jeans ad!
lol! I thought I was the only one who remembered that!
Charlie Brooks RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32 |
So the Justice society doesn't exist post reboot?
From the sounds of it, the members exist, but the JSA itself doesn't. The reboot seems to have superheroes as a modern thing that didn't exist prior to the 21st century, which would mean that all the comics that occurred in the World War II era never happened.
Of course, like everything else involving the reboot, all of what I just said is based on speculation.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding Liefeld: I don't hate the man (how could I? I've never met him), and I don't see anyone in this thread saying unnecessary or untrue, hateful things about him.
However, I dislike his art and his entire lack of respect for human anatomy, and even I can draw feet better than he can. While I wish him the best as I try to wish every human being, I will not buy a comic book drawn by him--even if starring characters I like, such as Hawk and Dove-- because I consider my investment in comics in part a purchase of the art contained within, and I do not feel Rob Liefeld's art is worth paying for. That is of course my personal preference and I do not expect anyone to behave in the same manner as I.
Regarding the reboot: I'm getting more of a zen calm about this and just acknowledging: clearly the boys at the helm of DC have some stories they want to tell. They can tell their stories. I am just not interested in those stories personally and likely will not follow them.
Freehold DM |
Regarding Liefeld: I don't hate the man (how could I? I've never met him), and I don't see anyone in this thread saying unnecessary or untrue, hateful things about him.
However, I dislike his art and his entire lack of respect for human anatomy, and even I can draw feet better than he can. While I wish him the best as I try to wish every human being, I will not buy a comic book drawn by him--even if starring characters I like, such as Hawk and Dove-- because I consider my investment in comics in part a purchase of the art contained within, and I do not feel Rob Liefeld's art is worth paying for. That is of course my personal preference and I do not expect anyone to behave in the same manner as I.
Regarding the reboot: I'm getting more of a zen calm about this and just acknowledging: clearly the boys at the helm of DC have some stories they want to tell. They can tell their stories. I am just not interested in those stories personally and likely will not follow them.
I think I've just been hanging out with the wrong crowd when it comes to comics sometimes. There are some people I know that have called for his head in all seriousness and do their best to get others to hate him as much as they do, which is unhealthy overall.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
DeathQuaker wrote:Regarding Liefeld: I don't hate the man (how could I? I've never met him), and I don't see anyone in this thread saying unnecessary or untrue, hateful things about him.
However, I dislike his art and his entire lack of respect for human anatomy, and even I can draw feet better than he can. While I wish him the best as I try to wish every human being, I will not buy a comic book drawn by him--even if starring characters I like, such as Hawk and Dove-- because I consider my investment in comics in part a purchase of the art contained within, and I do not feel Rob Liefeld's art is worth paying for. That is of course my personal preference and I do not expect anyone to behave in the same manner as I.
Regarding the reboot: I'm getting more of a zen calm about this and just acknowledging: clearly the boys at the helm of DC have some stories they want to tell. They can tell their stories. I am just not interested in those stories personally and likely will not follow them.
I think I've just been hanging out with the wrong crowd when it comes to comics sometimes. There are some people I know that have called for his head in all seriousness and do their best to get others to hate him as much as they do, which is unhealthy overall.
That's just comic book fans, Freehold_DM. I remember when "Superman Returns" was coming out and I knew someone who was LIVID--not because of anything to do with the plot or characters, but because "his shorts were a too dark shade of red." I am not making this up. Comic book geeks will find ANYTHING to be livid about, and the more inconsequential the issue, the more death threats given. (And ultimately, kidney-bean feet may not be worth paying for, but they're also not worth giving oneself an aneurysm over).
The difference with the Liefeld issue is that while the unbridled deadly rage at him is unhealthy and disturbing, he is still is not actually very good, so the criticism did begin to come out of somewhere legitimate, even if it's overblown.
And in any case, I haven't seen any of the crazy fanboy rage here, so I don't think it warrants criticizing behavior that's not actually happening in this place. :)
In completely other, different news
GAIL RELAUNCHES EVERYTHING
Aaron Bitman |
That's just comic book fans, Freehold_DM. I remember when "Superman Returns" was coming out and I knew someone who was LIVID--not because of anything to do with the plot or characters, but because "his shorts were a too dark shade of red."
Good lord!
I have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion at this point, but I just felt compelled to write "Good lord!"
Okay, let me see if I can come up with a more sensible comment...
And in any case, I haven't seen any of the crazy fanboy rage here, so I don't think it warrants criticizing behavior that's not actually happening in this place. :)
Yeah, the vast majority of people on this forum are quite civil. That's why I keep posting on paizo.com messageboards, while shying away posting on other websites.
Crimson Jester |
Wow there is so much I have read, both here and elsewhere that makes me dread this reboot. But who am I kidding, it has been years since I collected. If they really want me back, give me a good solid story with good art and good characters. I don't need a reboot. Heck if you look back in the day some of the silly stories, the classics never cared for continuity in the first place.
Aaron Bitman |
Back in the day, comics were read primarily by young children, most of whom didn't stick with a title long enough to notice continuity errors. They noticed a comic in a drug store for 10 cents, bought it on an impulse, and soon forgot about it.
These days, comics are expensive, and are sold mostly by subscription and in specialty shops, and must therefore appeal to die-hard fans. Hence, the need for continuity, or at least, some semblance of it.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
I think it would be a happy medium if we at least had in-book continuity (so you don't have say, an established loner like the Huntress suddenly become the team bicycle because one writer saw her in a compromising situation once and decided that was a regular character trait and failed to do any other research). I don't even care if Superman in Action Comics is different from Superman in JLA, just as long as the two characters behave consistently in their own book. But trying to keep the whole universe together is where things seem to always become a chaotic mess--inevitably something happens in one book that ripples out--but then one writer forgets/doesn't know about it, ignores it, and then you get all these inconsistencies and people get confused.
But see, I know that won't happen because that limits crossover possibilities (although even not completely), which apparently boost sales. I personally loathe crossovers so I don't get it, but obviously people buy into them.
joela |
joela |
It's not a reboot after all?
Dang! What a letdown!
Now I'm back to my earlier gripe. With titles like Action Comics and Detective Comics achieving an issue figure of over 800, they're throwing all that away?!? That's over 70 years worth of accomplishment!
I've just returned to comics after a decade-long hiatus. Enjoying how my old faves, the X-men, have mutated from a superhero group to a species trying to stay alive. No reboots, just speculative fiction following its logical (for the comic universe) course. And staying that way.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
DC also promised that there would be a reversal to the original status quo in a few years time, insisting that "this is not an event".
Joela, from your link:
"This is not a reboot," Wayne said. "It's a launch. This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past.
"I'm not fat! I'm just big boned!"
If Cassie's suddenly a thief, Tim, Bart, Cassie and Connor don't know each other, and Harley's a stripper, it's a reboot.
Freehold DM |
joela wrote:DC also promised that there would be a reversal to the original status quo in a few years time, insisting that "this is not an event".
Joela, from your link:
digital spy wrote:"This is not a reboot," Wayne said. "It's a launch. This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past.cartman wrote:"I'm not fat! I'm just big boned!"If Cassie's suddenly a thief, Tim, Bart, Cassie and Connor don't know each other, and Harley's a stripper], it's a reboot.
Hmm....
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM wrote:Have you seen the art to suicide squad?Matthew Morris wrote:Hmm....
If Cassie's suddenly a thief, Tim, Bart, Cassie and Connor don't know each other, and Harley's a stripper], it's a reboot.
I've been a fan of suicide squad for *years* and I remember the hue and cry over Poison Ivy being in it back in the day. I tend to take complaints of scantily clad women showing up in comics with a grain of salt, but that's just me.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
It's not a complaint about Harley being on the suicide squad. That would've been cool. It's a complaint about it not being Harley.
Amen. I look at Harley's background and can picture her as a non-superpowered Karla Soffen (Moonstone). She's crazy, but she has training in frakking with peoples' heads. The last arc of GSS showed that. I could picture her really messing with Bronze tiger, Deadshot, and possibly the Wall too, just for fun.