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Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sadly, I've given up on all things Batman. Mostly because I hate Damien Wayne and want to see his charcater erased from the pages of history. Not to mention I wanted to see Bruce stay dead and Dick retain the cape and cowl. Also, thought it insulting to start two of the longest running comics series over again from scratch.


Erik Mona wrote:
Absolutely Awful: Hawk & Dove #1.

I have absolutely no idea how Liefeld continues to get work. I really don't.

I read through Animal Man #1 today, and I just have to say: Daaaaaamn.

Spoiler:
I really like the very readily seen intonations that The Red is some kind of animal counterpoint to The Green. Iiiiiinteresting.


Ok so with the reboot what is happened with Beast Boy? I know Cyborg is in the League, Starfire is now an outlaw with Red Hood, and the Robins have all been placed in there respective books. But haven't seen anything that would say if he is/isn't in the DCU. I Just got back in to the Hobby with "War of the Supermen", but I have been a BB fan since I was Kid and found out that the sidekicks got there own book.


So Superman in Justice League has the costume and is 5 years ago

and Superman in Action is 4 1/2 years ago and doesn't have the costume

..hmmmm

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
DM Wellard wrote:

So Superman in Justice League has the costume and is 5 years ago

and Superman in Action is 4 1/2 years ago and doesn't have the costume

..hmmmm

Do not question the plan! The plan is flawless! Anything that seems like a mistake is merely part of the plan! Just like Walter West was! You see how well-planned everything is? Do you?


DM Wellard wrote:

So Superman in Justice League has the costume and is 5 years ago

and Superman in Action is 4 1/2 years ago and doesn't have the costume

..hmmmm

Justice League #1 is 5 years after the first official appearance of Superman

:
which in my mind at least will forever be:

[Superman] Easy miss, I've got you.
[Lois Lane] You've got me!.....looks...Who's got you?!

Action #1 is 4 1/2 years before Justice League #1

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Right. This is very deliberately done and explained within the context of the story in both Justice League #1 and Action #1. Apparently Action will jump to the modern day of the new DCU after the first arc, but I hope the generally positive reviews the issue has gotten will encourage them to stay in this earlier time for a while longer. It's very interesting.


So Action #1 is 9 1/2 years before the main Universe..I'm intrigued that they should take Clark back to his 1938 power level in discussions with other readers in my local comic shop I said that that would be the only thing that would make me go back to reading Superman.

Unfortunately it would also suggest that we won't be seeing a Superboy in the Legion.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm not so sure. Action #1 contains a reference to Clark's three handsome friends, two young men and a young blonde woman. A lot of folks online (me included) suspect that trio to be Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, and Saturn Girl from the original Superboy story.

Here's my understanding of the New DCU timeline, based on clues from Week 1.

Six Years Ago: The Joker starts murdering people in Gotham. Presumably, Batman is active at this time, but very much in his "urban legend" phase.

Between Six and Five Years Ago: A young, brash Superman arrives in Metropolis.

Five Years Ago (ish): Batman, Green Lantern, and Superman meet during events that will eventually lead to the creation of the Justice League.

Three Years Ago: Buddy Baker retires as Animal Man.

Also, both Batman: The Killing Joke and Crisis on Infinite Earths are considered in continuity, and presumably happened some time in the last three years.

Based on an off-handed comment from Superman in Swamp Thing (which takes place "today"), the Death of Superman arc probably also happened some time in the last five years.

Taldor

Agreeing with several comments above about Action #1. Specifically the 3 people that visited Clark while he was out. More than likely than not it was the Legion.

Cheliax

Here's an interesting way to view 52:

Should comic books emulate the TV biz? Plus: More reviews of 'The New 52'

Opinions?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

For the people reading Batgirl, a question...

I'm reading reviews that seem to be implying that Barbara is not working with Batman Inc, or with any of her Oracle contents, but this is in the same time period as Batman Inc.

Is this correct? If so it seems to be blowing yet more great bloody chunks of continuity all to hell. (Remember, they've said that very little has changed in the Batman and GL mythos).

From what I'm hearing about Static, I might get the trade. I liked DCAU static, and would love if they'd import more DCAU characters from his show into the new book. (Like Gear)

Taldor

Matthew Morris wrote:

For the people reading Batgirl, a question...

I'm reading reviews that seem to be implying that Barbara is not working with Batman Inc, or with any of her Oracle contents, but this is in the same time period as Batman Inc.

Is this correct? If so it seems to be blowing yet more great bloody chunks of continuity all to hell. (Remember, they've said that very little has changed in the Batman and GL mythos).

From what I'm hearing about Static, I might get the trade. I liked DCAU static, and would love if they'd import more DCAU characters from his show into the new book. (Like Gear)

The titles set in New York (Static, Hawkman and Nightwing) seem very promising. I would also like a team book evolve from these characters if they pan out well enough. And Static doesnt need Gear when he has Hardware. :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Aazen wrote:
The titles set in New York (Static, Hawkman and Nightwing) seem very promising. I would also like a team book evolve from these characters if they pan out well enough. And Static doesnt need Gear when he has Hardware. :)

Ah, but see, the only exposure I have had to Static was the DCAU version, so what's a Hardware?*

And I'm quite the Greyson fan, but I needed to cut back, and losing the third generation** of heroes made choosing which books to drop easy.

*

Spoiler:
I do know of some of the Milestone characters, just don't see why they don't import Gear. Then again, I don't see why Static is in NY when they could have kept him in the midwest and just made Dakota Detroit.

**

Spoiler:
Cassie Cain and Steph Brown in Limbo, Superboy/Kid Flash not being the originals, Cassie Sandmark looks to be 'darker and edgier'. Not to mention my generation of heroes (Wally, Donna, Garth, Raven) either in Limbo, or unrecognizable. (One thing that made Roy unique for me was his taking care of Liam, vs. Ollie's relationship to Connor)

At this point I just catch Captain America, X Factor, New Mutants, and will likely get uncanny X-men. I've been tradewaiting on X-force, and it might get added. An indi comic with a good 'jumping on' point would be nice to add. Reliving my childhood with the 'New Mutants Classic' TPBs.


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Matthew Morris wrote:
Aazen wrote:
The titles set in New York (Static, Hawkman and Nightwing) seem very promising. I would also like a team book evolve from these characters if they pan out well enough. And Static doesnt need Gear when he has Hardware. :)

Ah, but see, the only exposure I have had to Static was the DCAU version, so what's a Hardware?*

And I'm quite the Greyson fan, but I needed to cut back, and losing the third generation** of heroes made choosing which books to drop easy.

*** spoiler omitted **

**** spoiler omitted **

Matthew, in regards to your second spoiler, I think you'll find that Mssr's Didio, Johns, and Lee have changed, or enforced changes upon, quite a few of the otherwise 3-dimensional female characters to make them almost entirely "darker and edgier" - very much putting the lot of them into the "bad girls with chips on their shoulders, but secret hearts of gold" mold. I'm not entirely happy with it, as you can no doubt tell.

I still maintain that giving us Voodoo in exchange for Power Girl was like giving us a Yugo in exchange for an Aston Martin.

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Here is my take.

Spoiler:

Action - Superman is back to his basics. He is just starting out and no one knows who or what he is. They are unsure of him.
Don't know if I like the Luthor and General Lane getting together to take him down. Too much like the last couple of years.
Definitely do not like the elitist vs little person attitude and the police protecting the elite.

Justice League - A good beginning. A little slow introducing the charaters, but if done in a good way it may work (ie: Darkseid's plan involves them.)

Animal Man - Unsure how I am going to like this one. The thing that sticks out is that Buddy is a hero that they are making a movie about him. Now reading other books, 5 years ago the heroes were still not trusted. So he went from being untrusted to hero in 2 years than retired. That is pretty quick.

Batgirl - Back in action after she suddenly woke up and here legs could move? (And probably also did some therapy.)
I am curious about the distrust the police showed her (probably due to what is said in Detective).
The hesitation when the gun was pointed at her was interesting. As Oracle, in later issues, she had guns pointed at her and was able to fight back.
I wonder if she is going to be using batons as part of her fighting style.

Detective - The mayor declaring vigilantes outlaw (been there, done that several times).
Joker killing ex-members of his gang (done before).
The ending (EW).
The only thing new and interesting is the ending.

Men At War - The new Rock. A man so unsure of himself he has done everythiing he can to avoid leadership and responsibility.
Do we really want someone like this leading our troups?

Swamp Thing - The green wants Alec, Alec does not want the green.
Interesting. Might be worth keeping.

Hawk and Dove - Made no sense whatsoever. The real reason Dawn became Dove???? She was chosen by a Lord of Order.

Batwing - Interesting.
Him serving all of Africa while still holding down a policeman's job in one country? Long absenses may become a problem.
Earlier comments about the lack of backgroung - He is in an empty warehouse and out in the open. Africa does not have that many areas for backgrounds unless one is in a major city or a scenic area.
Could have used a little more color.

Stormwatch - Never read before now.
Martian Manhunter needing to be a warrior and doing things his JLA buddies may find questionable? They are going to find out.
Secret organization operating outside the boundries of normal superheroes? I am suprised Batman hasn't tried to shut them down yet.

Justice League International - The JLI under the dictates of the the UN. Booster Gold in charge. Guy Gardner leaving. Sounds Familiar.
Protestors destroying the Hall of Justice. Did not like at all.

Have not read Static Shock, Green Arrow, or OMAC yet.

I will read each #1, but will probably only keep reading about half.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

jemstone wrote:

Matthew, in regards to your second spoiler, I think you'll find that Mssr's Didio, Johns, and Lee have changed, or enforced changes upon, quite a few of the otherwise 3-dimensional female characters to make them almost entirely "darker and edgier" - very much putting the lot of them into the "bad girls with chips on their shoulders, but secret hearts of gold" mold. I'm not entirely happy with it, as you can no doubt tell.

I still maintain that giving us Voodoo in exchange for Power Girl was like giving us a Yugo in exchange for an Aston Martin.

I agree. I was hearing good things about Power Girl, (though not reading it) and enjoying Brian Miller's Batgirl (though I understand it was in danger of being cancelled pre-reboot).

I find it amusing that the female character I enjoyed reading the most in the pre-boot universe was Scandal Savage. Talk about complex relationships! Gail's 'Death of Oracle' really put a hard edge on Barbara, but to me made her more powerful ("I can do everything I did before, but in the shadows, and now I have a custom internet to play with.") I'd have loved a walking Oracle*, with her doing both the info broker job (with Wendy/Proxie running the lair while she's in the field) and the 'kicking butt' job.

I like strong female characters (I grew up on Claremont X-men/New Mutants after all) I don't need all my characters (male and female) dark and edgy. Heck, look at Preboot Starfire. Here you had a character who's combat skills could beat Donna/Wonder Girl, and likely could give Diana problems, but she still enjoyed life and experiencing new things. She had the dark angsty origin, but didn't wallow in it. (I've also argued that in an age of 'less eye candy' heroines, she's the one who is justified in wearing as little as possible). What I liked with the direction of Rose Wilson was that everyone assumed she was going to be as callous as her father, or as crazy as her brother(s) but she really wanted to be part of the Titans family. Richard believed in her after all. (The absurd Super-man-child-Prime thing aside, the final exchange between Rose and Kon-el, where she's about to tell him how she feels and he goes "I'm giving you this kryptonite shard, because if I ever go rogue again, I know you're cold blooded enough to pull the trigger." That was painful.)

Sorry, I don't mean to dump in the reboot thread, just miss the characters who I grew up with, and the next generation who I wanted to see grow into their own people.

*

Spoiler:
Ok, so linking to my own posts is egocentric, but I don't want to take up more space lamenting what could have been.


Matthew Morris wrote:
What I liked with the direction of Rose Wilson was that everyone assumed she was going to be as callous as her father, or as crazy as her brother(s) but she really wanted to be part of the Titans family. Richard believed in her after all. (The absurd Super-man-child-Prime thing aside, the final exchange between Rose and Kon-el, where she's about to tell him how she feels and he goes "I'm giving you this kryptonite shard, because if I ever go rogue again, I know you're cold blooded enough to pull the trigger." That was painful.)

Agreed 100%. That was the knife in the gut moment, right there.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Question:

Wasn't one of the premises/excuses for the reboot litigation over Superman rights/royalties? I may be fuzzy on who created what, but I'm having a hard time reconciling that excuse with the tidbits of "golden age Superman", "General Lane", etc.

Why couldn't DC have just done a true reboot and been done with it? (Or preserved continuity - such as it was? This straddle-the-fence approach seems gutless and weak.

Taldor

Agreed. This is a half @$$ed reboot for sure. Im going to assume my GL titles are in a self contained universe. And Static has gone back to Milestone Comics.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm of two minds on the reboot.

On the one hand, I haven't read any stories that are really terribly bad. In fact, some of them, like Action Comics, are pretty good.

On the other hand, I fail to see how the reboot makes things better in any way. Sure, it means a short-term sales hike for DC. But long-term, comics in general are going to continue to languish.

There's nothing story-telling wise that I'm seeing that differentiates this version of the DCU from any other. Sure, there are little details here and there, but at the end of the day I don't see why Detective Comics, for example, needed a whole new universe to tell yet another "The Joker is a sick bastard who only lives because every single person in Gotham City is stupid" story. Moreover, some of the big changes, like Barbara Gordon being Batgirl again, could have easily been done within the old DC.

Spoiler:

Barbara's backstory is that the wound from the Killing Joke was something she could recover from. She could just as easily have been misdiagnosed in her previous, bleaker, prognosis, made gains with new medical research, or a dozen other things that would have left her in the exact same position she's in starting at issue #1.

Again, the stories themselves aren't bad, but as a reboot this thing isn't really offering anything new. I don't see how it's going to magically draw in new readers, because continuity isn't the main barrier to new readers - the style of storytelling and general format of monthly comics is.

Right now comics fans pay $4 for something that they can read in under 10 minutes and that offer no satisfying conclusion until six months and several installments down the line. There's nothing in it for the folks who want instant gratification. There's not even a lot there for folks who want nostalgia or a sense of wonder, since comics have grown bleaker and darker over the years. The industry has made itself more insulated and less appealing to casual fans, while other forms of entertainment have done the opposite. To really bring in new readers, it will take more than a few new #1 issues; it will take a major shift in the way comics are presented.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

>>>
Why couldn't DC have just done a true reboot and been done with it? (Or preserved continuity - such as it was? This straddle-the-fence approach seems gutless and weak.
>>>

I think that's my major take-away so far.

Most of the things that ring untrue and confusing about these titles have to do with writers wanting to keep precious parts of the convoluted previous continuity (I mean Dove is dating Deadman? Is that really necessary?) and not embracing the opportunities presented by a fresh start.

The good books (Animal Man, Action, and Batgirl, basically) take advantage of the fresh start to do something new.

The worst ones (OMAC, Hawk & Dove, and maybe even JLI) are so riddled with references to convoluted continuity that they seem like major disappointments, at least to someone who hasn't been an active comic reader over much of the last 7 years or so (i.e. "the target audience").

Making a clean break lets the old universe be the old universe, and lets the new universe be more accessible and exciting. Trying to play it both ways, I predict, is going to be the major criticism of this effort as a whole.

But then, posts on this very forum about beloved seventh-generation heroes I've never even heard of and don't care at all about suggest that maybe DC knows more about how to satisfy their audience than I do, so who knows?

Right now I'm judging each book on its own merits, based on a read of the single issues. By that metric, with no emotionalism or nostalgia involved, I'd say they're batting about .650, which is a lot better than I expected.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Charlie Brooks wrote:


Again, the stories themselves aren't bad, but as a reboot this thing isn't really offering anything new. I don't see how it's going to magically draw in new readers, because continuity isn't the main barrier to new readers - the style of storytelling and general format of monthly comics is.
.

I actually disagree slightly in that I do think continuity has been a major barrier. I left comics for a year and missed out on a ton of stuff, and the glimpses I saw of crap like Brightest Day and Blackest Night really made me, a lifelong DC fan, feel as though I had missed the bus and couldn't really catch up.

I think the "writing for trade" style employed by, say, Geoff Johns is also a huge part of the problem. I think a book like Action #1 was definitely worth my money, because I got a more or less complete story. Same with Animal Man #1. NOT the same with Justice League #1, which was at best a third of a story and was, in retrospect, a pretty bad way to launch the reboot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Until they start writing single issue stories again, the casual reader is just going to wait and buy trades.

Edit: Speaking of which, how many of the new series are part 1 of X? If more than half are part 1 of 6 they've lost the casuals already.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

None of the Week 1 titles explicitly say "Part X of X" or anything (that I remember). JLA is really the main one that feels like only part of a story, though all of them hint at more going on in the major plot, and almost all of them end with a cliffhanger splash page.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Matthew Morris wrote:


I'm reading reviews that seem to be implying that Barbara is not working with Batman Inc, or with any of her Oracle contents, but this is in the same time period as Batman Inc.

So far in Week 1 none of the titles have any reference to "Batman, Inc.", not even Batwing, which as I understand it either was a Batman, Inc. character or fits the concept like a glove.

There has likewise been no mention of Oracle anywhere, though I suspect they will get around to this shortly.


deinol wrote:

Until they start writing single issue stories again, the casual reader is just going to wait and buy trades.

Edit: Speaking of which, how many of the new series are part 1 of X? If more than half are part 1 of 6 they've lost the casuals already.

Is it the labeling you object to?

Or the existence of continued stories at all?

Because the second goes back to the 70s at least. Long complex stories with no resolution in most issues. Sometimes never. They usually weren't labeled as such and would have single issue stories mixed in, but a random issue being in the middle of a storyline hasn't been rare in decades.

In fact, labeling the storylines actually brings them under some control. You don't wind up with so many plotlines being continued for years or dropped entirely (Yes, I'm looking at you, Claremont.)
It may even be easier for a new reader to tell when it'll be safe to jump in.


Erik Mona wrote:


I actually disagree slightly in that I do think continuity has been a major barrier. I left comics for a year and missed out on a ton of stuff, and the glimpses I saw of crap like Brightest Day and Blackest Night really made me, a lifelong DC fan, feel as though I had missed the bus and couldn't really catch up.

Out of curiosity, are you exclusively a DC fan? Not that Marvel is much better when it comes to convoluted continuities, but they at least take a different approach to things.

That said, both companies have had a tendency over the last few years to go into event overload, with each new event being set up in the immediate aftermath of the last one and never giving the readers a chance to take a breath and get used to the new status quo.

Quote:
I think the "writing for trade" style employed by, say, Geoff Johns is also a huge part of the problem. I think a book like Action #1 was definitely worth my money, because I got a more or less complete story. Same with Animal Man #1. NOT the same with Justice League #1, which was at best a third of a story and was, in retrospect, a pretty bad way to launch the reboot.

Agreed, One big problem with the writing for trade tendency is that it limits jumping on points. With the average story running six issues, that means that there is at best two jumping on points per year. And a lot of stories rely on what happened immediately beforehand.


deinol wrote:
Until they start writing single issue stories again, the casual reader is just going to wait and buy trades.

I think this is partially true. I finished up reading one of the Marvel Essential volumes recently, which reprinted a lot of stories from the 60s and early 70s. There were actually quite a few story arcs going on. However, there was a lot more packed into each issue. They had more going on, and they tended not to finish on cliffhangers as often as I thought. The result was that even when a comic was just one part of a larger story, there was still the feeling that the individual issue gave a complete story.

It also helped that those old comics didn't worry too much about continuity, instead focusing mostly on the iconic nature of the characters. Folks who have never even seen a comic already know at least 10 facts about Superman - just tell the story.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:

Is it the labeling you object to?

Or the existence of continued stories at all?

Not the labeling, if they are going to start a six part story they should be honest about it.

I don't mind the occasional long story arc, I object to its predominance in the industry. Not as much as I hate crossovers though.

When they say: "We're not writing to trades anymore" and "We started over at #1 to bring new readers in" I'm trying to figure out what they really mean. Are they trying to really be more casual reader friendly? Or are they trying to convince a new generation to fanatically buy comics every week?

For example, I only read Batman in trades. Because I don't want to worry about missing a part because it's in another of his many titles. I've never read X-Men because I never know where to start.

Looking back, some of my favorite comics were "What If?" which often retold longer stories in a single issue. I also really loved Impulse which had fun stories but few multiple issue arcs.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

I read Marvel avidly in the 80s and a little in the early 90s, and then pretty much abandoned it after the Legacy Virus and never really looked back. I picked up Grant Morrison's whole run on New X-Men and I picked up the Ultimates because I followed Bryan Hitch from Authority, but other than that I've pretty much turned my back on the House of Ideas. Civil War, from a distance, looks exactly like the sort of mega-crossover shock-value garbage that DC has been churning out lately, and I was never tempted to come back.

I started with DC during the Who's Who run about 1984. I picked up some old multi-story Brave & the Bold issues from the early 70s or so at a baseball card convention about the same time, and was exposed to stuff like Manhunter and the Metal Men, which I found really appealing.

I also really liked Keith Geffen's Justice League, but eventually fell out of DC in favor of Marvel and ultimately image in the 90s. A lot of DC really sort of sucked around that period, so I didn't consider it much of a loss.

A friend I met in college convinced me to try out the "Batman broke his back, and now Azrael and now Dick Grayson is Batman," and I generally thought it was pretty cool. I also picked up Zero Hour, which led right into Starman and the Golden Age limited series by James Robinson, and that reignited my childhood obsession with the Justice Society and the All-Star Squadron and the other Earth-2 heroes.

I collected DC from that point until I left Wizards of the Coast and moved away from my comic-collecting friends and my old comic store. I fell out of the routine of weekly trips to the store, and have essentially grazed trades ever since.

But I haven't even done very well with that, as I basically lose track of DC continuity around the point of 52 and Infinite Crisis.

I don't care about Marvel continuity anymore, and am not interested in collecting Marvel titles. They had me with Agents of ATLAS, which served to rekindle some of my enthusiasm, but also reminded me the heartache of having your favorite book canceled out from under your feet.

I find that the New 52 approach lets me "burn my idols" in terms of my connection to the past continuity of these characters and treat these books as a fresh start, which has been very appealing to me.

That's a rather long answer to "Do you read Marvel," but I've been doing a lot of writing about comics lately, and I can't really turn it off.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Even though I'm not a fan of the Ultimates, I'm a fan of the concept.
Rant mode set to 'On':

Spoiler:
Both Marvel and DC have their 'family friendly' books. Tiny Titans, Marvel Adventures, etc. They exist in their own pocket universe as it were. (with occasional references to the meta events) The Ultimates universe also stands on its own and doesn't (please Marvel, NEVER) cross over. Ultimates allows, for good, bad or indifferent, old characters to be taken in a new direction. (New Spider Man, Jimmy Hudson, Ultimatum, etc.) while keeping the old books intact*.

Every so often, a writer can take a risk that pays off. (Brubaker's revival of James won me over, just in time for him to be killed, but it took Captain America, and Steve Rogers, in new directions) Or not. (OMD anyone?)* In a mainline book it's a big risk, in an Ultimates book? It's par for the course.

DC had the chance to do this with the 'new 52'. I mean in the DCU everyone knew Dick wouldn't stay in the cowl forever** but they could have taken one of their new Earths and set (say) Batman, Batgirl, Superman and JLI on it, having "Never been shot" Barbara and Bruce and (a) Tim Drake and young Superman and told those re-origin stories. Put (a) Kyle Rainer there too as GL, etc. Mix them up as it were. At the same time, you keep the 'Core' universe of Detective, Batman Inc, Batman and Robin, Action Comics, etc.

Instead we get this muddled mess of "Some of the stuff is in continuity, some isn't."


End Rant.

*

Spoiler:
Dick as Nightwing is kind of the 'Ur-example' of a character growing out of the role he was in. The Judas contract may be best known for the 'Anti-Kitty Pryde' in Terra, but it is just as much a coming of age story for Dick. They've tried with the other sidekicks. (Aqualad ->> Tempest, Speedy ->> Arsenal ->> Red Arrow ->> Arsensal, Donna in all her incarnations... The closest to Dick would be Wally becoming The Flash, but that's taking on another's mantle, not making your own.

**

Spoiler:
Your milage may vary of course. I find Marvel's 'smoking is bad, but premarital sex, selling your marriage to Satan is fine' bit annoying at best. Likewise, DC's apparent pogrom on Marriage (Clark Barry, Wally, Ollie (and technically Donna)) but keeping Damien (and maybe Rose and Cassie) sends mixed signals too. "Here at DC, we don't like marriage, but kids out of wedlock are fine!"

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Erik Mona wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


I'm reading reviews that seem to be implying that Barbara is not working with Batman Inc, or with any of her Oracle contents, but this is in the same time period as Batman Inc.

So far in Week 1 none of the titles have any reference to "Batman, Inc.", not even Batwing, which as I understand it either was a Batman, Inc. character or fits the concept like a glove.

There has likewise been no mention of Oracle anywhere, though I suspect they will get around to this shortly.

Thanks. I know the preview for B&R 1 starts

Spoiler:
With the Russian Batman Inc being killed by NoBody
.

Also it's my understanding that the Joker's never been caught prior to Detective #1? so only *part* of the Killing Joke is in continuity? (apparently only Barbara being shot) This is the head ache thing I'm talking about.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

None of the Week 1 titles explicitly say "Part X of X" or anything (that I remember). JLA is really the main one that feels like only part of a story, though all of them hint at more going on in the major plot, and almost all of them end with a cliffhanger splash page.

The Navy Seals story in the second half of Men of War says "Part 1 of 3" ;-)


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I think Dork Tower says it best.

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
Both Marvel and DC have their 'family friendly' books. Tiny Titans, Marvel Adventures, etc. They exist in their own pocket universe as it were. (with occasional references to the meta events) The Ultimates universe also stands on its own and doesn't (please Marvel, NEVER) cross over. Ultimates allows, for good, bad or indifferent, old characters to be taken in a new direction. (New Spider Man, Jimmy Hudson, Ultimatum, etc.) while keeping the old books intact*.

The Ultimate line are continuity, just one of the many alternate Marvel Earths. As for crossing over - too late. In Ultimate FF, they used a portal and endend up in the Marvel Zombie Universe. This started the whole zombie line of comics that cross into alternate universes, including Earth-616 which is the mainstream universe.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Charles Scholz wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Both Marvel and DC have their 'family friendly' books. Tiny Titans, Marvel Adventures, etc. They exist in their own pocket universe as it were. (with occasional references to the meta events) The Ultimates universe also stands on its own and doesn't (please Marvel, NEVER) cross over. Ultimates allows, for good, bad or indifferent, old characters to be taken in a new direction. (New Spider Man, Jimmy Hudson, Ultimatum, etc.) while keeping the old books intact*.

The Ultimate line are continuity, just one of the many alternate Marvel Earths. As for crossing over - too late. In Ultimate FF, they used a portal and endend up in the Marvel Zombie Universe. This started the whole zombie line of comics that cross into alternate universes, including Earth-616 which is the mainstream universe.

Sorry, I meant that they have their own continuity, but Ultimate Peter Parker dying has zero effect on 616 Peter Parker. You can pick up an Ultimate book and not have to worry about the 616 history*

And yeah, don't remind me about the zombies. While you have to accept the concept of the multiverse, I still don't like the zombies.

*

Spoiler:
Provided the writers remember which universe they're writing of course.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Andrew Betts wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

None of the Week 1 titles explicitly say "Part X of X" or anything (that I remember). JLA is really the main one that feels like only part of a story, though all of them hint at more going on in the major plot, and almost all of them end with a cliffhanger splash page.

The Navy Seals story in the second half of Men of War says "Part 1 of 3" ;-)

I just noticed that when I reread the issue last night for my most recent New 52 Review. I'm up to TEN reviews so far, and now all I need to do is harness the power of the Speed Force so I can crank out the last four Week 1 reviews before Week 2 begins in about 24 hours...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Finally got around to finishing Week 2 last night. While there was nothing I outright hated, there were a few titles that I just didn't enjoy.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Saw the preview for Deathstroke. Looks like Wintergreen isn't involved (sad Hermit).

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Erik Mona wrote:
Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

Long explaination (Remember I'm a Titans fan)

Spoiler:
Wintergreen was a British soldier who was friends with Slade prior to him getting the Super Solde- er the treatments that made him Deathstroke. After be became Deathstroke, Wintergreen was captured by (at the time Viet Kong). Slade went in in full costume killed them all, and rescued Wintergreen. He basically served as Slade's Alfred after that. He was killed by Jerico-possessed Slade. To me he served as an important grounding for Slade. He'd frakked up his son (Joey) was driven by a sense of duty to his other son (Grant) and had alienated the woman he loved, (and didn't even know about Rose at that point). The 'Band of Brothers' vibe between Wintergreen and Slade gave the character a level of depth beyond 'evil super soldier'. I always felt Slade worked best when he had several levels. Not when he was blowing up cities and crap.

Wintergreen also didn't like his relationship with Terra (Bet that relationship gets sent down the memory hole right quick. 40 something man and 13-15 year old girl?)

Edit. I'm going to look the fool if I remembered his name wrong.

Cheliax

Erik Mona wrote:
Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

I only know Wintergreen the VC.... :)


Matthew Morris wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

Long explaination (Remember I'm a Titans fan)

** spoiler omitted **

hm.

Qadira

Matthew Morris wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

Long explaination (Remember I'm a Titans fan)

** spoiler omitted **

Edit. I'm going to look the fool if I remembered his name wrong.

This is the best version of Slade.

Taldor

Yeah to me Wintergreen was as integral to DS as Jarvis, Wong, Alfred, Kato.... Holy Crow! Why havent we ever commented on the Man Servant schickt before!? How many comics might have been saved if only they had Man Servants? It would have taken on a meaning for Power Girl, Zatanna and Birds of Prey (Although they did have Blue Beetle for a bit).

Osirion

Aazen wrote:
Yeah to me Wintergreen was as integral to DS as Jarvis, Wong, Alfred, Kato.... Holy Crow! Why havent we ever commented on the Man Servant schickt before!?

In various 'who would win?' superhero threads, someone always eventually brings up Alfred vs. Jarvis.

But Wong would kick both of their butts.

Wintergreen was portrayed as terribly senile (or perhaps a closet Lamarckian?) in the introduction of Rose Wilson, commenting on her *white hair* as evidence that she might be related to Slade, who only has white hair because *he's old.* (Having been blonde, like his sons Grant and Joseph, when he was Rose's age.) :)

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Matthew Morris wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Isn't Wintergreen a chewing gum flavor?

Long explaination (Remember I'm a Titans fan)

There seems to be a semi-similar character in this week's Deathstroke, so perhaps you will get that element of Slade's relationships with the New 52.

Also, you'll probably want to check out Superboy, as Rose Wilson is a fairly significant character in this month's issue, and looks to possibly be one of the comic's main cast members, at least for a while.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aazen wrote:
Yeah to me Wintergreen was as integral to DS as Jarvis, Wong, Alfred, Kato.... Holy Crow! Why havent we ever commented on the Man Servant schickt before!? How many comics might have been saved if only they had Man Servants? It would have taken on a meaning for Power Girl, Zatanna and Birds of Prey (Although they did have Blue Beetle for a bit).

Did they ever do a comic where all the manservants get together at a manservant convention and solve a crime together?

Because that would be cool.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Here's my New 52 Week 2 first impressions.

Batwoman and Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E. are easily the best books of the week, and both would now take several bad issues in a row to fall off my pull list.

I wasn't impressed at all with Batman & Robin, Grifter, Legion Lost (some cool costume updates in this, though), Mister Teriffic, and Superboy.

Among what was left, I was most impressed with Demon Knights and Green Lantern, but honestly everything else was at least decent.

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