I'm happy that Reaper has already implemented my genius idea! ;)
I'm happy that Reaper has already implemented my genius idea! ;)
While it's been a good business model for Reaper*, 41 minis over 4 years is a lousy model for GMs. It works best as a small supplement to the DDM line. But then, buying Horrorclix singles (I have 37 unique pieces) is also a good small supplement to the DDM line
*As a note, Reaper is one of the "good" companies (like Paizo) with great products and a great relationship with their customers. Reaper making a profit and remaining strong financially is a good thing for the games industry.
I am a bit of a different consumer, though. I like and buy miniatures for the asthetics, not the gameplay.
In regards to people needing armies of orcs, goblins, skeletons, et cetera, how many do you really need?
Last larger battle had three sections of ten Orcs, plus their heavy support.
Thats not an 'uncommon occurrence for us; a raid on a keep had around fifty mooks as defenders; a hillfort had about twenty five.
It is quite rare in any of the games I play or GM to have one or two baddies v party; or the fights become so easy.
I'm happy that Reaper has already implemented my genius idea! ;)While it's been a good business model for Reaper*, 41 minis over 4 years is a lousy model for GMs. It works best as a small supplement to the DDM line. But then, buying Horrorclix singles (I have 37 unique pieces) is also a good small supplement to the DDM line
*As a note, Reaper is one of the "good" companies (like Paizo) with great products and a great relationship with their customers. Reaper making a profit and remaining strong financially is a good thing for the games industry.
As the line grows, its sales grow, and as the economy stabilizes, its sales grow, and we are able to turn that growth into further line growth. We're working on 6 more models for this year, which will be our first year of more than 4 models added since inception.
(not the movie)
Yeah, it's slow, and we hear that a lot. And it looks sometimes like we're not listening, because we're not speeding it up as fast as we're being told to. Heck, I don't know how many times I've had this exact conversation on our forums. But thanks for the consitued support - you will see that support return back to you as we grow all our products - plastic and metal, licensed and not.
"How many orcs or goblins do you really need?
Well, none, really. Technically you don't need a battle mat to play D&D or Pathfinder, much less high-quality miniatures.
But how much do high-quality miniatures add to the gaming experience?
All I have is my own experiences to go by, but in my experience the more accurate, detailed and unique miniatures the GM has, the better and more immersive the game experience is.
In fact more accurate and unique minis is generally better than higher quality but less accurate and/or unique. But obviously higher quality is always better if you can have accurate and/or unique.
So back to the question "How many orcs or goblins do you really need?
For a typical single orc battle for my sixth level party I feel like I need the following:
3-4 melee orcs.
3-4 ranged orcs.
1-2 caster orcs.
1-2 orc leaders.
Now, just because I like some variation and recognizability in my encounters, my four melee orcs are probably going to be a mix of orcs with swords, axes, clubs and, if possible, a chain or hammer or something.
For my ranged orcs I want there to be a mix as well, perhaps javelins, bows and/or crossbows.
For the orc leader I prefer an orc with armor, and if I have two caster orcs, I like having a variety there too.
Now orc encounters are generally part of a campaign where you fight several encounters against orcs. Since I prefer not to plop the same miniatures down in two successive battles, I like having enough minis to at least provide some variety in back to back encounters.
So double the above.
Now, let's say that there is a major battle with orcs, and some soldiers are joining the party in the battle (a fairly common occurrence in my campaigns). Now you probably will at least double the above for that single encounter. Since I'd like to have at least some variation in that battle, I'd like to be able to break up the monotony with some different orcs if I can.
So, let's say that the gaming session involves two standard orc encounters and one major orc battle.
To do that "right" I would want to have the following:
8-10 melee orcs
8-10 ranged orcs
2-4 caster orcs
2 leader orcs
1 boss orc (which may actually be an ogre or something)
So, about two dozen orcs.
Now, the same goes for goblins, kobolds, bandits, lizard-men, basic undead, etc.
Of course I don't want my campaigns to be a bunch of typical encounters against orcs, goblins, kobolds and bandits. I want my campaigns to be memorable and, on occasion, exotic. That's why I make my own miniatures, but I also purchase and use miniatures. My campaigns have a variety of "factions" that I have tried to procure or make miniatures to represent. Among those factions are the following:
Yuan-Ti
Drow
Plant creatures
Vampires
Demons
Devils
Dragons
Elementals
Fey (Fairies, pixies, sirens, etc.)
Giants (including ogres and trolls)
Mythological (Minotaurs, Harpies, sphinx, etc.)
Magical Beasts (Basilisks, cockatrices, were-beasts, etc.)
Giant animals (Spiders, scorpions, eagles, etc.)
And then there are all my custom monsters from my own personal bestiary.
Add it all up and just to cover my campaign world I "need" something on the order of 250 miniatures, or else I have to plop down dice, pennies, pawns or other placeholders, all of which break the ambiance I've so carefully tried to create if I am forced to use them due to lack of suitable miniatures.
In my miniature collecting process by far the most important thing is to have a suitably well populated "faction" which includes an assortment of different types of minis for a particular group. In general that means some melee, some ranged, some casters and some special "leader" minis.
And I haven't even talked yet about the soldiers from different armies that are needed for guards, patrols, cannon fodder, etc..
I currently have about 1,200 usable miniatures and I still don't have "enough" to cover all the bases for just my own campaign world itself.
"How many orcs or goblins do you really need?
Well, none, really. Technically you don't need a battle mat to play D&D or Pathfinder, much less high-quality miniatures.
But how much do high-quality miniatures add to the gaming experience?
All I have is my own experiences to go by, but in my experience the more accurate, detailed and unique miniatures the GM has, the better and more immersive the game experience is.
In response to your first response, obviously you don't "need" any miniatures, we don't "need" to play at all, but that's looking deeper than the intent of the question.
I can tell from your response that you're running a lot of stuff on the table that I usually handle through description. That's fine, both are valid methods. I was just failing to see how that many units were necessary for an encounter with the party. You have clarified so thanks. Aside from the scope of our battles, you focus a lot more on uniqueness of individual goon monsters than I do. I'm perfectly fine with recycling the guy they just killed as the next one they're facing if they're the same type of standard enemy. That's not your thing so you need more guys.
Wouldn't that fit Merric's "Law of Miniatures" and be a successful business model? I know that it would get people of my mindset to buy what I consider to be "forced collectables". Something that I am excessively loathe to do because it feels like a scam. (Yes, MtG feels like a consumer scam to me because the rarity of cards is pre-determined instead of being a happenstance by-product of printing realities. I'm not saying that it isn't a genius business model or unethical, I just don't want to consume it. ;) )
It fits the Law, but the Law doesn't say anything about whether such a line will then succeed! That's dependent on other factors.
One of the most interesting things about the decline of the DDM line is how Wizards scrambled to try things to make the line more interesting for consumers, but were ultimately defeated because there really was nothing they could do about it. The key factor here lies with the saturation of the DDM-buying public. Once someone has 20 orcs, do they need another 20 orcs? It's pretty unlikely.
(This applies to all mini lines, btw).
These sort of lines work best when new consumers replace the old at a fairly constant rate. The initial sales of DDM were so high because there wasn't such a product line before and there was the demand. By the time you reached Year 5, the demand level would have been pretty close to the ongoing level they could expect from then forward.
An interesting drawback of DDM is that new models were mixed with "old" pieces - well, the new orc models were new sculpts, but in the end they were orcs, so that although the set might have new material in it, the bulk of it wasn't as interesting to old collectors. Thus, DDM needed the rate of new people entering the line to be fairly high to keep sales up.
One attempt to gain new purchasers was the "visible mini" booster, which suddenly threw out most of the benefits of the random boosters. Why are random boosters such a powerful tool? It's because you don't have the problem of all those unicorn boosters sitting on the shelves. Every booster is potentially good. Compare to the difference between completely visible boosters: I don't want that unicorn, I'll buy the troll instead.
So, stores having a lot of unicorn boosters on shelves didn't restock their boosters (since they didn't have a choice of boosters - they had to buy the set), and although there would have been an initial surge of interest, ultimately it actually hurts the line.
The DDM Heroes line had fascinating flaws. It looks pretty close to the Paizo/Wizkids product, actually, but Paizo has one huge bonus that DDM Heroes didn't have: Paizo are selling new minis. DDM Heroes had this fatal flaw of trying to sell minis that were already available - and quite cheaply on the secondary market. So, their potential market was much, much, much worse just to begin with. The other potential problems of the line (Do you really want these hero minis?) is something that the Paizo/Wizkids product will have to deal with. My prediction is that the initial offering will do rather well, as will certain monster sets, but hero sets will do less and less well.
So, to return to your Undead-themed packs: would they work? Yes, I dare say they would. Well, mostly. They'd have a basic problem in today's market of being nowhere near as affordable as the original DDM line (which was insanely cheap); you'd also have to deal with the existence of the other zombie/skeleton figures through previous DDM purchasers, the DDM secondary market, and Reaper's Legendary Encounters.
However, once the initial sales go through, you regain the problems of the DDM line. In effect, you're showing the "commons" of your pack, whilst keeping the rare figures hidden. DDM might not have shown the commons, but they were generally known. After a while, more common undead really aren't that attractive to the person who has enough. Ungained rares will only help for so long... and you get into the requirement for a refreshing pool of purchasers.
It should be noted that DDM common miniatures (including Skeletons and Zombies) likely ended up selling on the secondary market for _less_ than they cost to produce. Astonishing, but that's what the rarity system does for you. Meanwhile, the price of rare figures was far higher than they cost to produce! Supply and demand do very interesting things. For those buying minis on the secondary market, DDM were great for everyone who wanted common monsters. If you wanted a Beholder... less good.
Cheers,
Merric
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I'll never understand why the companies don't get it. They either go like WOTC did and make these random sets that no one wants to waste money on because they do not know what they are getting. if WOTC just sold singles or packs of goblins and orcs and the like I bet they would still be making minis.
Or they do like Paizo, these pewter minis that no one wants to paint. Yes there is a market for the pewter, but the masses do not want to paint their minis. Paizo also half heartedly tried the paper minis, and did this adventure set thing instead of just publishing a set for the monster manual, which would of been the smart thing, and economically smart thing.
No one seems to do what would work. I think some one should make the single color plastic minis, like the ones that came in Hero Quest, or in the dungeon and dragons games.
Even Paizo's latest attempt is just another half hearted dip of the toe into the market that is going to fail.
just make a whole set from the monster manual. Sell them in clear packaging so we can see what we are buying, you could even do small set of different orcs, or skeletons, pr goblins.
It is no secret what the consumer wants. Why do all the manufactures keep doing something different.
It's my understanding that to do this, they would need to make the minis so expensive that hardly anyone woould buy them. Making pre-painted minis is tricky, or lots of companies would be doing it by now.
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Have they been the holy grail of minis? No. There's thousands of people that don't even know LE exists.If there's only thousands of people that don't know of LE, I'm saying you're doing very well. Because I'd guess that there's billions of people who don't know about Pathfinder. :P
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan. I get all the LE minis (except the dinosaurs). Love the rats, by the way.
It's growing, just way too slowly for most gamers. By the time they came out, I already had most of them from DDM. They only seem to be putting out a few new ones a year, and it's usually nothing I don't already have. I would totally buy more legendary encounters if they had a much larger variety.
As the line grows, its sales grow, and as the economy stabilizes, its sales grow, and we are able to turn that growth into further line growth. We're working on 6 more models for this year, which will be our first year of more than 4 models added since inception.
(not the movie)
Yeah, it's slow, and we hear that a lot. And it looks sometimes like we're not listening, because we're not speeding it up as fast as we're being told to. Heck, I don't know how many times I've had this exact conversation on our forums. But thanks for the consitued support - you will see that support return back to you as we grow all our products - plastic and metal, licensed and not.
I take it you're a rep from Reaper Miniatures then? Cool. I've bought and painted Reaper minis a lot in the past but haven't had the time/inclination to do so lately. I'm glad to hear the pre-painted line is growing as they are pretty top quality minis in terms of sculpt and paint. I remember when the line was first announced and many boards were aflame with accusations that Reaper was killing its metal lines in favour of pre-paints. Gamers are such a reactionary bunch.
As far as Paizo's offering I'm pretty blase about it as I have scores of PC minis already. I'm sure it will sell well but I'll wait for some monster figures thanks.
Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two.
It always amazes me, 8 years after DDM came out, how true this 'law' actually is. Many companies have tried the pre-painted route and most have met with only limited success yet all have followed this law to some extent or another.
WotC - cheap prices (at least until about Unhallowed), large range of figures, random boosters
Reaper - non-random packaging, cheap prices, small range of figures (consider WotC had twice the number of unique figures in its first set than Reaper has put out in 4 years)
Wizkids same route as WotC (and nearly went bankrupt when they switch to Mage Knight 2.0 rules, in fact it killed the whole line of minis)
em4miniatures -non random packaging and large range of figures but expensive ($6+ for a single dwarf or orc)
Now Paizo is appearing and while we don't know what they will sell for I'm thinking they will be in the $2-3 dollar range per mini so we'll have cheap prices and non random packaging with a small figure selection.
I, for one, am hoping it will sell well so we can see things like PF goblins and minis we never got from WotC or Reaper.
It should be noted that several of the Reaper plastic miniatures (re)used models that had already been released as metal.
Merric - Hey, I'm just trying to come up with ways that I would bother buying pre-painted minis.
Of course, if they just sold them in bubble packs like metal minis only pre-painted I would buy them.
This assumes that the lower costs of plastic make up for the higher costs of metal.
Merric - Hey, I'm just trying to come up with ways that I would bother buying pre-painted minis.
Of course, if they just sold them in bubble packs like metal minis only pre-painted I would buy them.
This assumes that the lower costs of plastic make up for the higher costs of metal.
Pretty sure metal minis are cheaper to produce than plastic. Plastic has to sell much higher volumes to turn a profit because of the expense of the manufacturing process. At least that's who I remember it working out.
Pretty sure metal minis are cheaper to produce than plastic. Plastic has to sell much higher volumes to turn a profit because of the expense of the manufacturing process. At least that's who I remember it working out.Merric - Hey, I'm just trying to come up with ways that I would bother buying pre-painted minis.
Of course, if they just sold them in bubble packs like metal minis only pre-painted I would buy them.
This assumes that the lower costs of plastic make up for the higher costs of metal.
Yup - I remember a discussion on the old maxminis boards about this and plastic was indeed more expensive - as weird as that sounds.
Yup - I remember a discussion on the old maxminis boards about this and plastic was indeed more expensive - as weird as that sounds.
As I recall, plastic has a much, much higher set-up cost, but the ongoing cost per unit is much cheaper.
Make 10 figures, and metals are cheaper.
Make 100,000 figures, and plastics are cheaper.
Of course, with the increased price of oil, the numbers will have changed. Plastics do save you on transport (lighter), which helps. But then you make them prepainted and the price increases again!
One caveat about my law is that it assumes that the miniatures are otherwise identical; if you try to compare metals to plastics, it doesn't apply, or painted to prepainted. :)
Cheers,
Merric
Even Paizo's latest attempt is just another half hearted dip of the toe into the market that is going to fail.
Wanna bet?
Hehe. I'm certainly not betting against the Paizo/Wizkids miniatures succeeding. I hoping they succeed really well and Paizo will be able to offer some really nice minis to complement their RPG line.
The trick is to judge the market right, and unless you've completely lost your senses...
...this won't turn into The DragonDice that Killed Paizo. (DAH DAH DUUHHH!!!)
Cheers,
Merric
Man, I didn't even think of the cost of oil equating to plastic costs (a big ol' "dur" on me for that).
Soo... pre-painted metal minis would be a more economically viable product, then?
Man, I didn't even think of the cost of oil equating to plastic costs (a big ol' "dur" on me for that).
Soo... pre-painted metal minis would be a more economically viable product, then?
Hard to tell. There are a *lot* of advantages to plastics, which mainly come in the "ease of use and transport" columns.
Cheers,
Merric
I have a ton of plastic minis (D&D, Heroscape, and Star Wars) and quite a few metal minis. I like both and think both have their purposes. Not a fan of random packaging but I will say that (to some degree) I'm happy they did them that way: I have a lot of minis that I've found a use for but would never have bought on my own. Anyway...I hope companies keep making minis in whatever form and I'll keep buying them.
M
Man, I didn't even think of the cost of oil equating to plastic costs (a big ol' "dur" on me for that).
Soo... pre-painted metal minis would be a more economically viable product, then?
In low volumes, quite likely.
[
I take it you're a rep from Reaper Miniatures then? Cool.
Ah, yes. I'm sorry, I go by ReaperBryan on so many forums that sometimes I forget to intorduce myself.
I am Bryan Stiltz, can be reached at bryan at reapermini dot com if you need verification. (Hey, there's some clown on the paizo forums that says he's you, goes by Reaperbryan, is he you?). I am Reaper Miniatures Production Manager. It is my job to interfere at every level with the productivity of the workers, in theory helping them make the correct quantity of the correct part numbers at the highest standard of quality in the timeliest of fashions. I am sure they would tell you it is my job to stand over them and fuss about something they never even noticed and I should just chillax before I have an aneurism.
I'm only tertially involved with the Pathifinder pewter miniatures, in that I make them, although what gets made and all that is above my pay grade.
Thanks for the support - yeah, for 9 years now I've been listening to the doom and gloom prophesies on the internet every time an announcement is made. Plastic will kill pewter minis. p-65 will kill pewter minis. Paper minis will kill pewter minis. Pewter Minis would be easier to paint if they were not so small. ad inifnitum.
Anybody wants to talk minis directly with me, I will be attending PaizoCon as I did last year, look for me near the Paint and Take.
In low volumes, quite likely.Man, I didn't even think of the cost of oil equating to plastic costs (a big ol' "dur" on me for that).
Soo... pre-painted metal minis would be a more economically viable product, then?
Hm, look at me, linking to a competitor! Bad representative of Reaper Miniatures!
Nevertheless, I give you:
http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=27270
Crystal Caste made these 5 packs of pre-painted metal figures for ~20 USD. They are mostly on clearance racks, now, despite a good level of painting and good quality for the price.
My guess is CC has the same problem we face with our Legendary Encounters line. The secondary market for DDM has made consumers think that a mini should cost a dollar, and $4-5 each is "outrageous".
c'est la vie.
It's all good. Painting minis is more fun anyway.
It's all good. Painting minis is more fun anyway.
Of course, just because a mini comes prepainted, that doesn't mean people can't always put a new paint job on them.
Reaperbryan:
Who paints your pre-paints, out of curiosity? I've always wondered if this is a machine process, or if there's some outsourced group of painters?
My guess is CC has the same problem we face with our Legendary Encounters line. The secondary market for DDM has made consumers think that a mini should cost a dollar, and $4-5 each is "outrageous".
First, I love how you described part of your job was to interfere.
On to my more relevant bit. I actually don't think that all minis should cost a dollar on the secondary market (or even the primary). That I want them to is another matter. :)
I'll pay for what minis I want. And if the price is higher for the mini I want, I will drop the money on it. Primary or secondary market. Maybe I'm in the minority some days. But plastic or metal doesn't matter too much to me. Just make good usable and cool stuff.
Reaperbryan:
Who paints your pre-paints, out of curiosity? I've always wondered if this is a machine process, or if there's some outsourced group of painters?
There's a mask that is applied and sprayed on. We don't do the process in house, so I'm not sure, but I am told that it's all robots/spray masks. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a step involving humans and a paintbrush, but our supplier tells us this isn't the case.
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Have they been the holy grail of minis? No. There's thousands of people that don't even know LE exists.If there's only thousands of people that don't know of LE, I'm saying you're doing very well. Because I'd guess that there's billions of people who don't know about Pathfinder. :P
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan. I get all the LE minis (except the dinosaurs). Love the rats, by the way.
Well I was one of the ones that didn't know. This is the first I knew about it. The funny thing is I had heard of the Legendary Encounters but didn't know they was prepainted plastic mini's.
Well I was one of the ones that didn't know. This is the first I knew about it. The funny thing is I had heard of the Legendary Encounters but didn't know they was prepainted plastic mini's.
Have they been the holy grail of minis? No. There's thousands of people that don't even know LE exists.If there's only thousands of people that don't know of LE, I'm saying you're doing very well. Because I'd guess that there's billions of people who don't know about Pathfinder. :P
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan. I get all the LE minis (except the dinosaurs). Love the rats, by the way.
The comment I heard once described the product as "the best kept secret in the miniatures industry" **sadface**
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After now having read the whole thread. My views on plastic mini's and keep in mind these are just my own personal views. I would like for them to mostly be for monsters. For PC's, key NPC's and major monsters, I would prefer metal mini's cause then I can paint them how I want them to look. But for orc's, goblins, zombies etc the more generic monsters I would prefer plastic prepainted mini's. Easier to carry, use and more generic anyways.
I buy for both gameplay and aesthetics. But I don't buy nearly as much for aesthetics. I've probably only bought a dozen or so minis because I just thought they were too cool to pass up, but I've bought hundreds to play with. But I typically only buy gaming minis on the secondary market, and yes, I do sort of expect them to cost a dollar or less. When I can't find what I "need" I make it myself, including making molds and then casting multiple copies of them.
My biggest gripe with mini manufacturers is the lack of "faction" packages so you can buy a couple dozen orcs, or bandits or whatever in one package which satisfies your encounter needs.
Another way to think about it is that RPG minis sold in "encounter ready" packages should be a big hit with people like me. Want to run an encounter against lizard men? Then get the lizard men pack.
I found a box of orc minis from a company called "Caesar" that is just amazingly perfect for that sort of thing, unfortunately they are 24mm scale which makes them look more like goblins against today's steroid-enhanced mega-men towering 8 feet tall and taller on the "1 inch equals five foot" scale that is supposedly used for battle mats.
I hate the scale creep of the past few decades. It's made way too many of my best minis nearly unusable, and I have to wonder how much of that was deliberate.
I do wish that there were a different way. The fact that a secondary market immediately pops up for a particular marketing scheme just doesn't sit right with me.
It tells me that the company producing these minis knows that they are pushing crap product for a profit. Otherwise they wouldn't glut the market so badly that they devalue their own merchandise (as well as their competitors' merchandise).
I do wish that there were a different way. The fact that a secondary market immediately pops up for a particular marketing scheme just doesn't sit right with me.
It tells me that the company producing these minis knows that they are pushing crap product for a profit. Otherwise they wouldn't glut the market so badly that they devalue their own merchandise (as well as their competitors' merchandise).
I can get that you don't like the secondary market, and your purchasing preferences would rather be served by the primary market, but I don't really understand how you can come to the conclusion that the secondary market devalues merchandise or that the manufacturers "know" that they're "pushing crap product".
Further, why should sales of your product devaluing the competition be a worry, and not a goal?
Am I completely misunderstanding how capitalism and competition works? Isn't the concept to produce a superior product, one that drives people to purchase it over the competition, thereby "devaluing" the competition?
1) I never once said that it was a bad marketing scheme. Just that I wished there a different way for the company to profitable.
2) If the only way that you can sell undesirable product is to make people chase desirable product... well I call that "pushing crap".
3) It obviously costs more than a dollar or less to make a profit off of single-sales. Since a company pursuing the artificial (as in "through artifice" not "fake") creation of rarity necessitates the need for a secondary market to sell the undesirable product at a loss... well, isn't that devaluing your own product, not just the competition's?
I'm sorry if this post comes off as haughty or rude, I don't intend it to be. It's hard to be clear and concise on the internet without sounding like an educated donkey. ;)
All that said I would like to re-iterate that I don't think it's a bad approach if one simply looks at it from an economical point of view. I simply have other criteria than the bottom dollar to judge marketing schemes by.
I'm a firm believer that supporting the competition to keep it healthy and to keep product top-notch is a much healthier and desirable attitude, as well as a more long-term successful scheme, than making the largest amount of money that you can in the shortest time possible.
I think that my ideals have been proven to work by Paizo, themselves.
I'm a firm believer that supporting the competition to keep it healthy and to keep product top-notch is a much healthier and desirable attitude, as well as a more long-term successful scheme, than making the largest amount of money that you can in the shortest time possible.
I think that my ideals have been proven to work by Paizo, themselves.
I like to think that we follow a similar business model, given that our figures are the cheapest New Figures in the business, (there's a company that re-releases expired licenses, and he can do cheaper than us because he has fewer up-front costs, but that's neither here nor there). I also like to think that that's one reason why Paizo approached us about doing their figures. Quality Product, consumer-friendly price, consumer-friendly customer service, and respect for the hobby.
2) If the only way that you can sell undesirable product is to make people chase desirable product... well I call that "pushing crap".
I think this may be part of what confused me - I don't agree for a minute that they were selling "undesirable" product - just that the varying rarities and subject matter creates varying desirabilities.
I have no doubt that there are people that have zero desire for a gnoll or a troglodyte or some such other monster. To those specific sellers, those specific minis are undesirable, sure, but that doesn't equate to the company "pushing crap". The edition wars have taught us that much.
3) It obviously costs more than a dollar or less to make a profit off of single-sales. Since a company pursuing the artificial (as in "through artifice" not "fake") creation of rarity necessitates the need for a secondary market to sell the undesirable product at a loss... well, isn't that devaluing your own product, not just the competition's?
I don't think that there was a necessity for the secondary market - I just think it's a synergistic thing that promotes the primary market.
I'm sorry if this post comes off as haughty or rude, I don't intend it to be. It's hard to be clear and concise on the internet without sounding like an educated donkey. ;)
No, we're cool - I wasn't picking up what you were putting down. Now I have my hands full. :D
I'm a firm believer that supporting the competition to keep it healthy and to keep product top-notch is a much healthier and desirable attitude, as well as a more long-term successful scheme, than making the largest amount of money that you can in the shortest time possible.
I have no problems with competition, and believe it to be healthy, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if a competitor isn't able to compete. Bad product shouldn't be supported by anyone. Competition is supposed to encourage everyone to make things better, and eventually, some are going to fall by the wayside because they can't.
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2) If the only way that you can sell undesirable product is to make people chase desirable product... well I call that "pushing crap".
But its not I think that all humans/elves/dwarves/orcs/goblins/kobolds/skeletons are slag because I have more than I will ever need of these. Even if these are the most popular minis in a set (and they usually are), I would rather have new creatures that I don't already have that appear in APs. All the players who collect would disagree with me. It's the old addage one man's trash is another man's treasure... with the random assortment you have both of these demographics buying for the ones they want, therefor selling twice as much
3) It obviously costs more than a dollar or less to make a profit off of single-sales. Since a company pursuing the artificial (as in "through artifice" not "fake") creation of rarity necessitates the need for a secondary market to sell the undesirable product at a loss... well, isn't that devaluing your own product, not just the competition's?
I think that more likly they sell the commons at cost, so that both the uncommon and rares make them profit. Remember: they make more commons, so the sculpting and mold prices are spread out among more pieces, making them less expensive to make. Also Uncommon and then rares each get more detail work done in the painting, which costs more in paint and labor to do as well. If they all cost the same, then they would be selling the commons at a loss, but since they generarlly cost less to produce, they are valued less in the booster price.
Yes, this is partially through design of the company choosing which minis need better paint jobs to stick out, or more plastic than can be budgeted into a common to make a profit. But if you budget X cost to your rares and you pay less than X to create them, thats extra profit... if you budget x and spend more on your rares, you either need to make super-rares or scrap the sculpt and start over... thus they needd to budget as if every sculpt had the sculpt with the most plastic/paint/manhours in it in every slot.
(I'm rambling, does any of this make sense?)
2) If the only way that you can sell undesirable product is to make people chase desirable product... well I call that "pushing crap".
As others have pointed out, "desirability" in this case has nothing to do with the quality of the product but rather with how many DMs are looking for figures of that specific monster/NPC. They're not pushing crap. They're pushing stuff that some people want, and in order to give everyone something to look forward to in the minis sets, they have to sell the stuff that a lot of people want along with the stuff that relatively few people want.
If you don't do this, you run into one of the Three Big Problems - a small, relatively boring line of miniatures.
The comment I heard once described the product as "the best kept secret in the miniatures industry" **sadface**Well I was one of the ones that didn't know. This is the first I knew about it. The funny thing is I had heard of the Legendary Encounters but didn't know they was prepainted plastic mini's.
Have they been the holy grail of minis? No. There's thousands of people that don't even know LE exists.If there's only thousands of people that don't know of LE, I'm saying you're doing very well. Because I'd guess that there's billions of people who don't know about Pathfinder. :P
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan. I get all the LE minis (except the dinosaurs). Love the rats, by the way.
Well, part of the reason is that the only way to find them in the Paizo store is to know they already exist. Consider the what's on the "Miniatures for Roleplaying" page. Certainly nothing there looks like pre-painted minis.
I had to do a search for "Legendary Encounters" to find them, and then go to one of the minis and see where it was in order to find all of them, listed under the By Company / A / Asylum Miniatures deal.
Which reminds me to go see what's available now.
Well, part of the reason is that the only way to find them in the Paizo store is to know they already exist. Consider the what's on the "Miniatures for Roleplaying" page. Certainly nothing there looks like pre-painted minis.
I had to do a search for "Legendary Encounters" to find them, and then go to one of the minis and see where it was in order to find all of them, listed under the By Company / A / Asylum Miniatures deal.
Sounds like we need to talk to Vic to get them classified differently to help improve their visibility.
2) If the only way that you can sell undesirable product is to make people chase desirable product... well I call that "pushing crap".As others have pointed out, "desirability" in this case has nothing to do with the quality of the product but rather with how many DMs are looking for figures of that specific monster/NPC. They're not pushing crap. They're pushing stuff that some people want, and in order to give everyone something to look forward to in the minis sets, they have to sell the stuff that a lot of people want along with the stuff that relatively few people want.
If you don't do this, you run into one of the Three Big Problems - a small, relatively boring line of miniatures.
This does bear repeating. For every 5 people who hated something like the Wrackspawn there was always one who couldn't seem to get enough of them. Same thing for giant frogs (I heard someone painted theirs gold and made a pyramid out of them!), Little Big-head (Dwarf Guard of Mithril Hall - I heard about a lot of people getting this one in bulk to turn into Dwarf statues for dungeon decoration) and many, many others. WotC ended up with a massive catalog of miniatures with a handful of duplicates (and most of those were of things people really wanted - Huge Red Dragon anyone - I sold my Giants of Legend one and got the 'other' one for 1/4 what I received for the GOL version!).
In the end I think this may really have killed the line - the secondary market was massive with cheap prices on all but the rarest/most desirable figures. People didn't have to buy a random booster anymore because, with very, very few exceptions, what you wanted could be easily found from the secondary market. Even some of the most expensive rares could be bought for less than the price of a single booster at the end of the DDMs life.
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Sounds like we need to talk to Vic to get them classified differently to help improve their visibility.
Done did classified!
Reaperbryan since you are paying attention here, I will tell you there is one thing stoping me from buying your Pre Painted Minis, The Bases, they Drive me crazy, they are way to small and the minis constantly fall, and are not really sized for 3.5 size rules very well.
We are working to improve the tipping issue in future releases - one poster on our forum suggested gluing them to pennies. They cost only $.01 each, which is cheaper than any other basing material he could think of, and provided enough bottom-weight to stick 'em down.
As for sizing, we battle with scale creep and with base sizes - sometimes to make the figures dynamic and impressively built, we sacrifice a little of the "strictly 100% accurate" in terms of game rules. Then again, we're also trying to be universal, these aren't specific to 3.x/Pathfinder/4e. And while most people can agree on the size of a horse, a werewolf in "crinos" form is anywhere from normal human sized (teen wolf) to 12 feet (White Wolf). D&D/Pathfinder's interpretation is just one, and our artists are artists, and sometimes do what pleases them.
Sounds like we need to talk to Vic to get them classified differently to help improve their visibility.Done did classified!
Woohoo!
Here's to hoping it improves visibility, sales, and future selection :)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I like to think that we follow a similar business model, given that our figures are the cheapest New Figures in the business, (there's a company that re-releases expired licenses, and he can do cheaper than us because he has fewer up-front costs, but that's neither here nor there). I also like to think that that's one reason why Paizo approached us about doing their figures. Quality Product, consumer-friendly price, consumer-friendly customer service, and respect for the hobby.
Not to mention great employees, good corporate culture, and piles and piles of Reaper minis in all of our closets! :)