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Eilodon Statistics and Epic Fantasy Games


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


I would post this in the product section, as I am looking for an honest answer from the Jame Jacob, Jason Bulmahn, or any of the staff, but it would probably end up being moved here anyway.

I was wondering what power level the eilodon's statistics were made for. I have tried summon monster spells in the past, but have found that the statistics of the summoned monster could be very low in comparison making them nearly useless due to a gap between the player epic fantasy stats and the average party level. This became a very big problem when all the players in the took the simple advanced template.

Plus when you factor in the Synthesist Archetype it sort of becomes critical as you might find some of your physical stats are better than the eilodon's you are fused with. Especially if you are building a high melee combat type and need the stats for some feats, like two weapon fighting.

So I was wondering what fantasy level is the summoner's eilodon stats built for so they can be adjusted properly to fit this odd game I am in now if I choose to play one in it.

Thanks


You know, I distinctly remember putting this in rules section...

This isn't a rules question???

Shadow Lodge

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


This isn't a rules question???

Nope. A rules question would be: With the Synthesist Archetype can I improve my physical stats with magic items?

This is a design intent/game balance issue.

Instead of requesting an answer from staff why don't you try the advice forum and ask the community instead. I imagine the community has made a lot more Eidolons in a lot more different situations than the staff has.


AxeMurder0 wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


This isn't a rules question???

Nope. A rules question would be: With the Synthesist Archetype can I improve my physical stats with magic items?

This is a design intent/game balance issue.

Instead of requesting an answer from staff why don't you try the advice forum and ask the community instead. I imagine the community has made a lot more Eidolons in a lot more different situations than the staff has.

It is a simple mechanical design question, which fantasy level did they design the summoner for...

Shadow Lodge

The eidolon seems to be built on a low fantasy level, the quadruped stats are 14,14,13,7,10,11 which is 10 points on the buy out systems. The biped/aquatic forms to to have +2str -2dex modifiers on them and the serpentine has a -2str +2dex modifier on it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
AxeMurder0 wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


This isn't a rules question???

Nope. A rules question would be: With the Synthesist Archetype can I improve my physical stats with magic items?

This is a design intent/game balance issue.

Instead of requesting an answer from staff why don't you try the advice forum and ask the community instead. I imagine the community has made a lot more Eidolons in a lot more different situations than the staff has.

It is a simple mechanical design question, which fantasy level did they design the summoner for...

Your question is un-answerable, because we don't know what you mean by "fantasy level". Everyone has his own definitions of that.

For some people, swining swords at dragons is epic, for others that's run the mill and epic begins when you fly across the stars and shoot meteors at nearby planets.


Gorbacz wrote:


Your question is un-answerable, because we don't know what you mean by "fantasy level". Everyone has his own definitions of that.

For some people, swining swords at dragons is epic, for others that's run the mill and epic begins when you fly across the stars and shoot meteors at nearby planets.

He means the "low fantasy"-option on table 1-2 p.16 pfcr (low-fantasy-chars have 10 points to spend using the purchase method).

If the Synthesist is to weak ask your GM if he gives you a buff:

May be calculate
normal points 10
high fantasy 13-14
epic fantasy 16-18

a full upgrade (1 more char-point = 1 more eidlon-point) is to much in my opinion because you aren't really increase mental stats with these points.

Liberty's Edge

There's more to a summon / eidolon than just its stats. They grant twice as many actions per round to a single player. That's a huge bonus.

Beyond that summons in particular are expendable resources, there's no penalty if they die, there's not even a reason to expend resources if they take damage.

The issue isn't that they're poorly balanced with regards to an epic point buy. They are balanced with how the game is designed, and while their power level will be higher at lower point buys they should still be considerable help at higher point values.

Assuming, of course, that you're playing by the rules of the game. If you're slapping templates on all the player characters, and their foes then yes, their stats are going to be lack luster.


ShadowcatX wrote:

There's more to a summon / eidolon than just its stats. They grant twice as many actions per round to a single player. That's a huge bonus.

Beyond that summons in particular are expendable resources, there's no penalty if they die, there's not even a reason to expend resources if they take damage.

The issue isn't that they're poorly balanced with regards to an epic point buy. They are balanced with how the game is designed, and while their power level will be higher at lower point buys they should still be considerable help at higher point values.

Assuming, of course, that you're playing by the rules of the game. If you're slapping templates on all the player characters, and their foes then yes, their stats are going to be lack luster.

As I said IF the summoner is to weak... (my synthesist just startet his adventure and has no fighting/play-experience but seems to be balanced even with the standard-stats on charakters with a higher point-buy-basis).

Even a "weak" eidolon taking the large-evolution is a good fighter.


Lonwyr wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


Your question is un-answerable, because we don't know what you mean by "fantasy level". Everyone has his own definitions of that.

For some people, swining swords at dragons is epic, for others that's run the mill and epic begins when you fly across the stars and shoot meteors at nearby planets.

He means the "low fantasy"-option on table 1-2 p.16 pfcr (low-fantasy-chars have 10 points to spend using the purchase method).

If the Synthesist is to weak ask your GM if he gives you a buff:

May be calculate
normal points 10
high fantasy 13-14
epic fantasy 16-18

a full upgrade (1 more char-point = 1 more eidlon-point) is to much in my opinion because you aren't really increase mental stats with these points.

Okay cool thanks!

By my calculations they run off of an average of 11 point buy. So by your suggestion it seems that it was built of r normal fantasy game.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I would post this in the product section, as I am looking for an honest answer from the Jame Jacob, Jason Bulmahn, or any of the staff, but it would probably end up being moved here anyway.

I was wondering what power level the eilodon's statistics were made for. I have tried summon monster spells in the past, but have found that the statistics of the summoned monster could be very low in comparison making them nearly useless due to a gap between the player epic fantasy stats and the average party level. This became a very big problem when all the players in the took the simple advanced template.

Plus when you factor in the Synthesist Archetype it sort of becomes critical as you might find some of your physical stats are better than the eilodon's you are fused with. Especially if you are building a high melee combat type and need the stats for some feats, like two weapon fighting.

So I was wondering what fantasy level is the summoner's eilodon stats built for so they can be adjusted properly to fit this odd game I am in now if I choose to play one in it.

Thanks

"Odd game" eh? I don't recall your voicing any protest at all, although I applauded your restraint for a time.

Summon Monsters are not "useless" - there are too many "builds" floating around that directly prove otherwise. UM provides a LOT of love for several different types of summoners, including at least one specific to your current player character.

Eidolons are far far nastier than animal companions AND they are customizeable!. The only drawback - such as it is - is that they are theoretically susceptible to being banished or dismissed. The crocodile sheds no tears.

The answer has already been provided as regards the "fantasy level" all the game material is written for.

I will tell you right now that there's no way I'm permitting adjustments to eidolons any more than I'm permitting adjustments to animal companions, familiars, cohorts, followers or anything else along that vein.

The synthetist permits you to "Call" a better set of physical ability scores out of thin air as part of a package that fields built-in armor, complete protection from harm and whatever else your evolution points got for you. I'd guess the min-maxer type promptly makes such a summoner with the barest physical ability scores necessary to continue breathing and dumps as much as possible into Int/Wis/Cha. Then starts play as venerable (in a more typical AP) or old (otherwise).


Turin the Mad wrote:

"Odd game" eh? I don't recall your voicing any protest at all, although I applauded your restraint for a time.

Summon Monsters are not "useless" - there are too many "builds" floating around that directly prove otherwise. UM provides a LOT of love for several different types of summoners, including at least one specific to your current player character.

Eidolons are far far nastier than animal companions AND they are customizeable!. The only drawback - such as it is - is that they are theoretically susceptible to being banished or dismissed. The crocodile sheds no tears.

The answer has already been provided as regards the "fantasy level" all the game material is written for.

I will tell you right now that there's no way I'm permitting adjustments to eidolons any more than I'm permitting adjustments to animal companions, familiars, cohorts, followers or anything else along that vein.
...

I have yet to hear of any games that would allow the players to take such a template. Not complaining, but I did come to the conclusion that the high stat point game coupled with the +4 to all stats with the template sort of left the static stats of the summoned creatures in the dust, as my character's increased stats didn't help them much at all. This same problem would happen with any game that has static stats for summoned creatures. If RAW in your game would find the summoner having dwarfed the eidolon's stats by a mile at lower levels. This would also make the Synthesist archetype even more useless as why would any take a hit to their physical stats to such a degree?

A 1st level Summoner's Stats 25 point buy with template human +2 Cha

Str 17
Dex 16
Con 20
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 22

A PFS Summoner Stats 20 point buy with template human +2 Cha

Str 11
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 18

A 1st level Eidolon Biped/Quadruped/Reptilian with ability boost Con

Str 16/14/12
Dex 12/14/16
Con 15
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11

Fused with Eidolon with Synthesist: Your game

Str 16/14/12 (Net Loss -1/-3/-5)
Dex 12/14/16 (Net Loss -4/-2/0)
Con 15 (Net Loss -5)
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 22

Fused with Eidolon with Synthesist: PFS

Str 16/14/12
Dex 12/14/16
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 18

Grant it there are other things, but this seems odd to me, and shows how the current game is not exactly by the standard rules, which might need addressing when things pop-up. So for summary here, the higher stats of the characters are devaluing the static stats of summoned creatures, including the Eidolon (especially if the synthesist is to be used), and is making using such tactics less effective.

Again, I am not complaining, but the adaptation to the rules has made certain venues of focus for some classes not very viable. You are building monsters to handle characters that have 5 stat points over PFS rules (which I assume PFS is design standard), and with an additional +2 to all their actions, saves, and +4 to AC.

I started this thread because of a few reasons. I was really excited about the Synthesist but I saw a problem in the system with this modified game play. I wanted to figure out a suggestion of a solution to said problem. Please don't take this as anything but.

P.S.
My main situation was remedied thus far with this discrepancy in the system due to your changes rather kindly by you as you did allow me to change my characters focus; thus no complaints, because I never had to deal with it again. This is different when summoning other beings is the ONLY thing they can do, and the stat boost does nothing for this class ability.


You're totally hosing your summoner over in the view of the synthetist archetype, especially given the way I see you build your characters.

Your point buys are out of whack.

25 points will not buy 13 Str (3), 13 Dex (3), 16 Con (10), 10 Int, 14 Wis (5) and 16 Cha (10) = total points 31.

0 points buys 10 in all 3 physical stats. 5 buys a 14 Int or Wis and 20 buys 16 each in Wis or Int and Cha. Cha is primary, so it goes to 18 with racial +2 bonus.

Normally, based on your previous characters, for this archetype I would expect 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 16 Int, 14 Wis, 18 Cha at 1st level. Template makes this 14, 14, 14, 20, 18, 22. Start at the bottom end of "old" for 11, 11, 11, 22, 20, 24 plus level advancement and gear bonuses.

7, 7, 7, 18, 16, 20 without the advanced simple template, thus making the synthetist VERY viable! In PFS the 5 points fewer merely results in both Int and Wis starting at the same value of 16 after age bonus.

Squishy, oh yes - right up until he straps on his suit every morning. It can't be dispelled, it has to be destroyed, dismissed or banished.

Of course, a single spell calls that puppy right back up. At 16th level you can even call it back as a swift action if you have Quicken Spell - although in what condition I don't know from the top of my head. Much sooner when you get a lesser metamagic rod of quicken.

The net losses disappear or are negligible even with the advanced simple template, leaving only VERY substantial gains. Tahe the resilient eidolon feat in UM and you and the eidolon are together all the time until it is sent packing or you're eaten/killed/destroyed along with it.


Turin the Mad wrote:

You're totally hosing your summoner over in the view of the synthetist archetype, especially given the way I see you build your characters.

Your point buys are out of whack.

25 points will not buy 13 Str (3), 13 Dex (3), 16 Con (10), 10 Int, 14 Wis (5) and 16 Cha (10) = total points 31.

0 points buys 10 in all 3 physical stats. 5 buys a 14 Int or Wis and 20 buys 16 each in Wis or Int and Cha. Cha is primary, so it goes to 18 with racial +2 bonus.

Normally, based on your previous characters, for this archetype I would expect 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 16 Int, 14 Wis, 18 Cha at 1st level. Template makes this 14, 14, 14, 20, 18, 22. Start at the bottom end of "old" for 11, 11, 11, 22, 20, 24 plus level advancement and gear bonuses.

7, 7, 7, 18, 16, 20 without the advanced simple template, thus making the synthetist VERY viable! In PFS the 5 points fewer merely results in both Int and Wis starting at the same value of 16 after age bonus.

Squishy, oh yes - right up until he straps on his suit every morning. It can't be dispelled, it has to be destroyed, dismissed or banished.

Of course, a single spell calls that puppy right back up. At 16th level you can even call it back as a swift action if you have Quicken Spell - although in what condition I don't know from the top of my head. Much sooner when you get a lesser metamagic rod of quicken.

The net losses disappear or are negligible even with the advanced simple template, leaving only VERY substantial gains. Tahe the resilient eidolon feat in UM and you and the eidolon are together all the time until it is sent packing or you're eaten/killed/destroyed along with it.

Okay I will think about your points.

3 questions.
1. What spell brings back an Eidolon after it is defeated?
2. Doesn't Banishment remove the eidolon?
3. In the case you can't bring back your eidolon, wouldn't be best to build your charcter to be able to use most of the fighter style feats in the case you can't have an eidolon for what ever reason seeing as with a synthesist you have to use your feats? That means a more paladin like build IMHO.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


Okay I will think about your points.

3 questions.

1. What spell brings back an Eidolon after it is defeated?
2. Doesn't Banishment remove the eidolon?
3. In the case you can't bring back your eidolon, wouldn't be best to build your charcter to be able to use most of the fighter style feats ...

3 answers:

1.) summon eidolon, APG page 248. There are a bevy of eidolon-specific spells between the APG and UM.

2.) banishment still has to succeed, the same for dismissal. They require Will saves and have to penetrate SR. As a cleric spell regular spell immunity will suffice to thwart dismissal whereas greater spell immunity or a ring of counterspells can stop both of them (one ring for each in the latter example).

3. I would say no unless the archetype removes the eidolon's feats.


Turin the Mad wrote:


3 answers:

1.) summon eidolon, APG page 248. There are a bevy of eidolon-specific spells between the APG and UM.

2.) banishment still has to succeed, the same for dismissal. They require Will saves and have to penetrate SR. As a cleric spell regular spell immunity will suffice to thwart dismissal whereas greater spell immunity or a ring of counterspells can stop both of them (one ring for each in the latter example).

Okay cool.

Turin the Mad wrote:


3. I would say no unless the archetype removes the eidolon's feats.

Yes the synthesist does remove all the eidolon's feats, skill points, and mental stats among other things.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quote:
"The eidolon seems to be built on a low fantasy level, the quadruped stats are 14,14,13,7,10,11 which is 10 points on the buy out systems. The biped/aquatic forms to to have +2str -2dex modifiers on them and the serpentine has a -2str +2dex modifier on it."

This. Since PFS has a 20 point buy, one assumes that a Summoner is "supposed" to have about 10 more points than their Eidolon- or, put another way, if you were running a 25 point buy game, it wouldn't hurt to bump up the Eidolons a tad maybe.

Note that all Eidolons spend their points the same way- it's just that you can also have those Biped or Serpentine templates to work with.

So if you are playing, say, 30 point buy, maybe you should add 5 or even 10 points to the Eidolon. Note that this should be constant, and not up to the player.

For instance, the 10 point buy gives:

14,14,13,7,10,11

So a 20 point buy might always be:
15,15,14,8,11,12

This 8 int instead of 7 of course gives them an extra skill point each hit die, etc.

I would strongly recommend YOU pick the way all Eidolon's "extra points" are spent, not the player- a player will optimize their Eidolon, and this optimization is NOT accounted for in the design of the class (if it was, the Eidolon generation would be in the hands of the player, and the 10 point buy wouldn't always result in the same matrix).

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