Amulet of Mighty Fists of Speed and Natural Attacks


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Amulet of Mighty Fists can have 3 of its potential bonuses turned into the Speed enhancement if I understand it right. The speed enhancement in turn tells that the weapon gets 1 extra attack per round.

But if a character has say 2 claws and a bite, and all three get enhanced ... that would make 6 attacks! :)

Just reading it very RAW I guess.

And sure the natural attacks will never be +5 flaming holy shocking freezing for a good extra 5d6+5 dammage but would it work?

Cheers,
J

Liberty's Edge

Not quite - the Speed enhancement lets you make one extra attack at your highest bonus when you make a full attack. So you'd get 3 claws and a bite, or 2 claws and 2 bites.


And before anyone claims thd haste effect doesn't work with natural attacks, James Jacobs confirmed that it does.


Well the Speed enhancement sais:

"When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."

And I have 3 weapons enhanced so I should have three attacks.

Just as a TWF should get an extra attack with each weapon. or?

This is not the haste spell its a weapon enhancement.

So does this change anything?


Huron wrote:

Well the Speed enhancement sais:

"When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."

And I have 3 weapons enhanced so I should have three attacks.

Just as a TWF should get an extra attack with each weapon. or?

This is not the haste spell its a weapon enhancement.

So does this change anything?

Hmm....it seems that RAW you may be right...

RAI you're almost certainly off.


FiddlersGreen, I can agree and I might not. I mean if it works for two weapon fighters it should work for natural weapons too. And giving up +3 of your potential +5 (as if you ever get to lvl 20) is also fairly steep. Surely much heavier than getting a pair of boots of speed and call it a day.

But it could make my possessed little girl very scary at higher levels.
(Half-orc that looks human) barbarian with darkvision bite attack and 2 claws and (in the future) pounce, rend, imp natural weapons, elemental rage and dammage reduction. All for a nice little pounce charge together with speed amulet:

2 x bite: 1d6 (bite) + 1d6 (fire) + str + powerattack
4 x claw: 2d6 (claw) + 1d6 (fire) + str + powerattack
2 x rend: 1d6 rend

=> potential 18d6 + 6 x (str + powerattack)
at lvl 10 str would be around 20 + rage = 24 (+7)
and powerattack would be +6 (with a bab at 10)

so 18d6 + 78 or between 96 and 186

At higher levels throw in dreadful carnage and terrifying howl for spice and flavour. :) Growl!


It works for two weapon fighters because you are putting it on both weapons. They're paying 64k for both weapons, at least. And from that they get 2 extra attacks. You're paying 45k and getting 3 extra attacks.


I was actually just contemplating this for an intelligent dire lion scout rogue I was building last night and wondered the same thing. RAW is actually somewhat unclear, as far as I could tell. Definitely it does say that when making a full attack, you get an extra attack at your full bonus with the weapon with this enhancement. However, it does specify that it doesn't stack with similar abilities, such as haste. This is where the ambiguity lies. Does the enhancement effect the weapon or the wielder? You would think it effects the weapon, but then why wouldn't it stack with haste, since the spell effects the wielder and not the weapon? The logical conclusion that I made from this was that the Speed enhancement actually effects the wielder of the weapon and not the weapon itself. With this reading, an Amulet of Mighty Fists that has the Speed enhancement only grants one additional attack and not an additional attack for each natural attack.

I mean, my charging blender lion already makes mincemeat of most of the things it could encounter (scout's charge + pounce + five natural attacks = pain). Taking that from five attack to ten attacks on a charge is just a crime against my players.

I think RAI and RAW actually align relatively closely on this one.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, I figured Speed worked like haste, but I was wrong.

Looks like yes, you'd get 3 extra attacks, since the amulet applies to all of them. If you have an amulet with the Flaming attribute, all of your natural attacks do +1d6 fire damage, so assuming TWF characters with dual Speed weapons get extra attacks, this should work.

... I should put Speed on my druid's animal companion's amulet. 4 claws, 2 bites, and 4 rakes on a charge? Eww.


Cheapy wrote:
It works for two weapon fighters because you are putting it on both weapons. They're paying 64k for both weapons, at least. And from that they get 2 extra attacks. You're paying 45k and getting 3 extra attacks.

I think the issue here is that the amulet of mighty blows gives the ability to all natural attacks. Hence all the natural weapons become speed weapons. RAW, it appears to work since the speed enchantment operates on the weapon.

Seen another way, the haste spell allows you to treat ONE weapon as if it had the haste property, effectively, whilst putting a speed enchantment on an amulet of mighty blows grants it to ALL your natural weapons. At least, that's how the RAW seems to work.

Scarab Sages

But here's the deal. Each natural attack is receiving the bonus from the same source.

And we all know that bonuses from the same source don't stack :p

Plus, a vaguely remember a dev post about how speed weapons only provide one total extra attack a round. I think it was in a two-weapon fighter thread.

There was stuff about speed shurikens and twenty million attacks in a round :p

Liberty's Edge

Bonuses from the same source don't stack, but this is a source applying bonuses to multiple attacks. If an amulet of mighty fists has Flaming, it adds +1d6 fire damage to all natural attacks. Therefore, if it has Speed on it, it applies Speed to all natural attacks.

I guess the question now is: Can you gain multiple extra attacks from wielding multiple Speed weapons? I'd be very happy if the answer was no, but it seems to be worded as a yes.

Liberty's Edge

FiddlersGreen wrote:


I think the issue here is that the amulet of mighty blows gives the ability to all natural attacks. Hence all the natural weapons become speed weapons. RAW, it appears to work since the speed enchantment operates on the weapon.

Seen another way, the haste spell allows you to treat ONE weapon as if it had the haste property, effectively, whilst putting a speed enchantment on an amulet of mighty blows grants it to ALL your natural weapons. At least, that's how the RAW seems to work.

Lets take a moment, then, to consider the Monk. The list of available weapons for them is: Hands, Feet, Head, Elbows, Knees, Forearms, Shins, And Anything Else That Could Hurt.

If each one of those is considered a Natural Attack (Which I would allow) then thats 7 attacks just from the list I gave (Which I would NOT allow.)

IMHO, (Regardless of RAW/RAI) this would best be resolved as affecting the user, not the weapons, just to avoid the exploits.

Also, I would totally do that if a GM ever allowed it. Stacked with Flurry...


But basically the only "fair" rule that doesnt create ninja tigers or ginzurangers is that no matter how many weapons you enhance, it works like the haste spell and you only get the sugar once!

Otherwise I could see a TWF go something like this:

Main*5 + off*4

With shortswords of speed holy fire lightning cold for simplicity

do a potential 9 * (6d6 + str(7) + powerattack(10)) at some high lvl 16 or so

thats somewhere north of 54 d6 + 170 or 124 to 394

Well here its probably the other weapon bonuses that does it and not the speed but still you see the numbers.

So really.. maybe the ninja tiger is the only fair deal to measure up to TWF fighter/rangers?!?

Not to mention Two handed fighters with 30str and powerattack
doing 5x 2d6 (weapon) + 5d6 (enhancements) + 15 or 20 (str) +20(powerattack)
for a round 35d6 + 195

Any how I think that the natural weapon guys are not really in a strong lead w/wo speed weapons.


Pardon my calculations!!!

I just saw that you can only have one of the fire, shock, cold stuff at any one time.. removing 2d6 dammage from all of the fighter attacks but adding a +5 enhancement bonus.

so only 36 d6 + 215 and 25d6 + 220 resp.

still too much if I may say so though.

//Edited to add enhancement bonus


and at that level the barb would come closer with higher str and a potential holy on her claws (totally removing all to hit bonuses).

30d6 + 96+18(more str and rage)+24(more power attack)
=> 30d6 + 138

Maybe lower max than the warriors but maybe a better average hit chance?

But disallowing the speed would half that dammage and make it far from compareable with the fighters. So maybe RAW is actually more ballanced.

Monks could easily be argued that they have one weapon, their body, since no specific parts are ever given.

Tnx for everyones input. :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

For those who posted about charging with pounce. Don't forget your rhino hide armor (+2d6 on a charge per attack)


I'd probably allow the amulet of mighty fists (speed) apply to all the natural attacks or unarmed strikes individually. After all, that's why you're paying 2.5x more for it than enchanting a single weapon.

Regarding the monk, even though he's making attacks with different parts of his body, they're considered "unarmed strike" so he would still only get one additional unarmed strike on a full attack.

I will admit, however, that pouncing animals get pretty scary (not that they aren't already scary). I'd have to look it up the exact wording, but I don't think the speed quality would apply to the rake attacks since they are only triggered in specific situations (and cannot, in general, be made during a full attack).

I think it's an interesting way to let characters who rely on natural attacks to keep up with the ridiculous damage that most martial PCs can deal at the point where an item of this cost is affordable.

I'm sure this ruling isn't exactly RAW, but I really don't see it as being game-breaking.

Liberty's Edge

Tem wrote:
I'd have to look it up the exact wording, but I don't think the speed quality would apply to the rake attacks since they are only triggered in specific situations (and cannot, in general, be made during a full attack).

I think it would work during a pounce, since it specifically states that you get a full attack, including rakes.

Pounce:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

I don't think it makes sense for it to work this way... it seems way too powerful for a +3 bonus on an amulet. If it does work this way... I see no reason why all dragons (or other monsters with lots of natural attacks) wouldn't wear one of these Doom Amulets.


It gets game-breaking in that it completely doubles the damage output of a natural attack using character. The intelligent dire lion scout rogue I mentioned above? Average DPR against AC 30 (the expected AC at CR15) is about 392. It's 784 if he gets to apply Speed to all his attacks and 428 if he only gets one extra attack. That's a huge swing in damage.


Mauril wrote:
It gets game-breaking in that it completely doubles the damage output of a natural attack using character. The intelligent dire lion scout rogue I mentioned above? Average DPR against AC 30 (the expected AC at CR15) is about 392. It's 784 if he gets to apply Speed to all his attacks and 428 if he only gets one extra attack. That's a huge swing in damage.

Well what RAW rules are you using to build an intelligent dire lion scoute rogue?

If we stick to core/apg and friends it atleast does not break the fighter vs barbarian vs ranger stuff like Tem said.

I think there is something else in the lion build that might need some overview. or?


Huron wrote:
Mauril wrote:
It gets game-breaking in that it completely doubles the damage output of a natural attack using character. The intelligent dire lion scout rogue I mentioned above? Average DPR against AC 30 (the expected AC at CR15) is about 392. It's 784 if he gets to apply Speed to all his attacks and 428 if he only gets one extra attack. That's a huge swing in damage.

Well what RAW rules are you using to build an intelligent dire lion scoute rogue?

If we stick to core/apg and friends it atleast does not break the fighter vs barbarian vs ranger stuff like Tem said.

I think there is something else in the lion build that might need some overview. or?

Advancing a monster by hit dice, applying the HD attribute bonus to INT, then applying the stat adjustments for a creature with class levels (+4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2). There was a recent Paizo blog about intelligent animals. Enjoy this handy link. In the comments, James Jacobs explicitly calls out lions with rogue levels being nasty.

Even without that, I could have done so by using the spell Awaken.


RAI and balance issues aside, at the moment it seems that there are only 2 ways to interprete the rules, and both depend on how the speed property works:

1) Speed weapons each allow you to make 1 extra attack with that weapon in a full attack. If this is so, then insofar as the amulet of mighty blows grants all natural weapons the special abilities it is imbued with, all the natural weapons will have the speed property. In my opinion, this is the correct reading per RAW, BUT I ALSO THINK IT IS OVERPOWERED AND NEEDS ERRATA.

Under this reading, all haste allows you to do is make an extra attack with any 1 weapon, and it does not stack with the speed property in that you cannot make an extra attack with a weapon that already had an extra attack from a speed property (but can still make the extra attack with any other weapon you might be wielding).

2) Speed weapons grant you 1 extra attack, but you only get 1 extra attack regardless of the number of speed weapons you wield. Whilst I do not believe that this is how the RAW should be interpreted, I DO THINK THAT THIS IS WHAT IT SHOULD BE.


Well the issue with the lion rogue is that it is way out of proportions to begin with.

But purely damagewise lets look at a rogue twf.

6 attacks dealing 1d6+3d6+10d6 + maybe 18 with powerattack and +5 weapons

that makes for 78d6 + 104 potential dammage, w/o speed. Admittingly not close to a lion ninja on crack. But still scary.

I think that the problem comes with allowing animal characters in your campaign that have abilities that were not balanced for character use to begin with. I mean why not take a Deinonychus while you are at it. It has five attacks straight up and is only CR3 so you can add tons of rogue levels and what not. (if I understand it right).

Still something I think wouldnt be permitted in most campaigns. But thats just me.


Except that an AoMF is sort of designed for monstrous/bestial creatures. If I was playing a druid or any other class with an animal companion, I'd be buying an AoMF for my pet. Letting Speed apply to each natural attack separately, instead of as a mini-haste as it seems to be intended, means that my AnCo just doubled it's damage output regardless of what that damage output was before. If it's a lion or deinonychus with pounce, or just a horse with a couple of weak hoof attacks, it doesn't matter; the damage output is doubled. What about a wildshaping druid or a polymorphing wizard? Grab something with lots of natural attacks and this amulet and you've doubled your damage output.

This is where I have to give way to RAI. You get one extra attack. That's it. Not one extra per attack type. Not one extra per weapon. One. The issue isn't my lion's build, but that natural attacks work differently than manufactured weapon attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I agree with Mauril on this. With Huron's interpretation, a polymorphing caster/fighter, such as a Dragon Disciple using Form of the Dragon II gets 12 attacks per round (2 bites, 4 claws, 4 wings, and 2 tail slaps), which does not seem to be the intent of the rule/item.


Zonto wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Mauril on this. With Huron's interpretation, a polymorphing caster/fighter, such as a Dragon Disciple using Form of the Dragon II gets 12 attacks per round (2 bites, 4 claws, 4 wings, and 2 tail slaps), which does not seem to be the intent of the rule/item.

OUCH! Thats just wrong!

I see your point Zonto, but I rather think that it wasnt designed with the dragon in mind or the dinosaurs. But removing it kind of requires to remove the possiblility from TWF as well. A much smaller thing to do I admit.

Still I think that I would rather let things be RAW, as it is balanced for most normal character and make houserulings for all things animal, as the animal rules are so messed up allready. That way most characters can just play away and those who oviously want to tweak out to the max have to get the blessing of the DM.

But thats my 2 cents.


The answer is written in the description for speed:

When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speedweapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

When a creature or a player in the form of a creature uses all available natural attacks it's a full-attack action. If only one attack is made, as in an attack of opportunity, the extra attack would not apply and a player would choose which out of it's available attacks to use, i.e. bite, claw, tail whip. The attack gained from a speed weapon adds one attack at the end of a full-attack action and the attack can be chosen as any single attack that can be made.


I now this is old but I was wondering this to then I saw that more info has been added to the item

Editor's Note

*Does the amulet of mighty fists allow a creature's natural attacks to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is high enough?

Yes. If the amulet grants at least a +3 enhancement bonus it allows a creature's natural attacks to bypass cold iron and silver damage reduction. If it is +4, it allows them to bypass adamantine damage reduction (although not hardness), and if it is +5, it allows them to bypass alignment-based damage reduction.

[Source]

If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?

No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).

[Source]

The Amulet of Mighty Fists' price and cost were updated in a recent Paizo blog. This page reflects those changes.

[Source]

Sczarni

What is it that you're wondering?

If it's about an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Speed, it's already been answered in the FAQ.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote:
(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

I find it amazing this line gets overlooked so much. So much so that they had to put in an FAQ saying no they don't stack and didn't even bother to say why they didn't stack, just that if they stacked it would be too good for 80,000 gp.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:
Quote:
(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
I find it amazing this line gets overlooked so much. So much so that they had to put in an FAQ saying no they don't stack and didn't even bother to say why they didn't stack, just that if they stacked it would be too good for 80,000 gp.

I learned a long time that when people want a rule to work a certain way they can get very selective with their reading.

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