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The issue which I've seen in a few threads goes something like this:
I combine Boosted Fade or Enhanced Form with something like Greater Cure and because instantaneous is the shortest duration it makes the effects of the Words with which it is combined permanent. This pretty obviously is not the intent, but it raises the question of how to resolve such a combination. Has there been an official answer to this that I've missed?
In the same vein, Destructive Vibration has the unusual duration of "instantaneous, 1 round/level" (I think Acid Wave should have he same duration based on the text). Is the implication here that "instantaneous" is combined with any non-instantaneous duration for determining the duration of a spell? i.e. A Selected Sonic Blast Decelerate would be a 5th level spell with a reflex save (half damage/negate deceleration) and a duration of "instantaneous, 1 round/level"?
The issue which I've seen in a few threads goes something like this:
I combine Boosted Fade or Enhanced Form with something like Greater Cure and because instantaneous is the shortest duration it makes the effects of the Words with which it is combined permanent. This pretty obviously is not the intent, but it raises the question of how to resolve such a combination. Has there been an official answer to this that I've missed?
In the same vein, Destructive Vibration has the unusual duration of "instantaneous, 1 round/level" (I think Acid Wave should have he same duration based on the text). Is the implication here that "instantaneous" is combined with any non-instantaneous duration for determining the duration of a spell? i.e. A Selected Sonic Blast Decelerate would be a 5th level spell with a reflex save (half damage/negate deceleration) and a duration of "instantaneous, 1 round/level"?
Seems pretty easy. You go with the lowest duration that is actually a duration. Instantaneous doesn't mean "permanent", it means "no duration". Basically, D&D uses "instantaneous" rather than writing duration: none or omitting the duration line.
For example, Baleful Polymorph says duration: permanent in the spell line, whereas Fireball says duration: instantaneous. As in there is no duration, it happens and is over.
I would go with the shortest duration and count instantaneous as not an actual duration for adjudicating the effect, because it isn't a duration. It's more like a bookmarker so they don't have to eliminate the duration line from every spell that doesn't have some kind of duration.
If a duration is permanent, it'll tell you it's permanent.
That's not quite true. Several instantaneous effects have permanent results. The more I think about it though, the more certain I am that instantaneous is a different type of duration which is added a la Destructive Vibration's "instantaneous, i round/level". Frankly, that's the only way Destructive Vibration could ever logically be combined with anything else.
I only just got my PDF of the book so I'm probably missing something but I have a question in a similar vein.
How dose one go about creating energy wall spells. Ex: Wall of Fire.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.
Likewise how would I create something like Incendiary Cloud, or any fire spell for that matter with a duration?
I only just got my PDF of the book so I'm probably missing something but I have a question in a similar vein.
How dose one go about creating energy wall spells. Ex: Wall of Fire.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.
Likewise how would I create something like Incendiary Cloud, or any fire spell for that matter with a duration?
There are "wall" words, to create an incendiary cloud, use the boosted barrier word (which makes it shapable) with the fire wall word
There are "wall" words, to create an incendiary cloud, use the boosted barrier word (which makes it shapable) with the fire wall wordI only just got my PDF of the book so I'm probably missing something but I have a question in a similar vein.
How dose one go about creating energy wall spells. Ex: Wall of Fire.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.
Likewise how would I create something like Incendiary Cloud, or any fire spell for that matter with a duration?
ah thank you I see it now.
Seems a somewhat cumbersome way of doing it but I guess that would work for incendiary cloud. But it still leaves things like Fire shield or Flame blade.
It's going to take a lot of reading to get a good grasp on it I guess. One would think that a Meta word that shifted the duration up a category would have been included.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.
RAW I'm not so sure it winks out. Good example would be Wall of Iron. I has a instant duration and create a permanent wall of iron. If the wordspell with the barrier target word + fire effect word works the same way it would create a permanent wall of fire.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.RAW I'm not so sure it winks out. Good example would be Wall of Iron. I has a instant duration and create a permanent wall of iron. If the wordspell with the barrier target word + fire effect word works the same way it would create a permanent wall of fire.
The difference would be Conjuration[Creation] (Wall of iron) vs. Evocation [Fire]
That's not quite true. Several instantaneous effects have permanent results. The more I think about it though, the more certain I am that instantaneous is a different type of duration which is added a la Destructive Vibration's "instantaneous, i round/level". Frankly, that's the only way Destructive Vibration could ever logically be combined with anything else.
What spells might those be? I looked. I did not find even close to several.
Or are you loosely trying to tie damage to being a permanent effect in the same way a fly spell letting a person fly is an effect?
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.RAW I'm not so sure it winks out. Good example would be Wall of Iron. I has a instant duration and create a permanent wall of iron. If the wordspell with the barrier target word + fire effect word works the same way it would create a permanent wall of fire.
Wall of Iron is a special case. Just apply common sense to the spells (no, I'm not accusing anyone of anything). A permanent fireball makes no sense, and an instant wall of iron that goes away right away after you cast it also makes no sense.
In most cases, if an instant spell appears to have a permanent effect this is because the spell changed the world somehow and you are left with the non-magical aftereffects of the spell. A wall of iron is not magical and you cannot dispel it because there is no spell keeping it in existence. This is also why you can't dispel feeblemind, because the spell did its damage in an instant. However, spells with duration (including permanent) can be dispelled because the magic is keeping the spell's effect in existence!
Does an everlasting wall of fire sound like a nonmagical effect? I would say no, and that you can't do it with a spell with a duration of instant.
Anyway, if you combine the barrier word with an instant effect word, you will get a barrier that lasts for less then a second. This is because all the effect words you're thinking of adding to the barrier don't create anything permanent aside from the damage they do. You might as well just use the burst target word.
Barrier + a Fire Effect seems the right way except that all the fire words have instantaneous durations, leaving me with a Wall of flames that winks out of existence moments after I cast it.RAW I'm not so sure it winks out. Good example would be Wall of Iron. I has a instant duration and create a permanent wall of iron. If the wordspell with the barrier target word + fire effect word works the same way it would create a permanent wall of fire.Wall of Iron is a special case. Just apply common sense to the spells (no, I'm not accusing anyone of anything). A permanent fireball makes no sense, and an instant wall of iron that goes away right away after you cast it also makes no sense.
In most cases, if an instant spell appears to have a permanent effect this is because the spell changed the world somehow and you are left with the non-magical aftereffects of the spell. A wall of iron is not magical and you cannot dispel it because there is no spell keeping it in existence. This is also why you can't dispel feeblemind, because the spell did its damage in an instant. However, spells with duration (including permanent) can be dispelled because the magic is keeping the spell's effect in existence!
Does an everlasting wall of fire sound like a nonmagical effect? I would say no, and that you can't do it with a spell with a duration of instant.
Anyway, if you combine the barrier word with an instant effect word, you will get a barrier that lasts for less then a second. This is because all the effect words you're thinking of adding to the barrier don't create anything permanent aside from the damage they do. You might as well just use the burst target word.
RAI I agree with you. Instant word + barrier should not create permanent non magical changes. I just think that RAW there is not enough information to tell which way it works.
Wall of Iron is a special case. Just apply common sense to the spells (no, I'm not accusing anyone of anything). A permanent fireball makes no sense, and an instant wall of iron that goes away right away after you cast it also makes no sense.I'll accept that a permanent wall of Fire or Acid that isn't being sustained by magic strains common sense.
But what's not common sense about a permanent ability enhancement, if permanent ability damage (Feeblemind) fits into common sense?
Assuming that instantaneous doesn't create a permanent effect, Words of Power can't create a permanent, non-dispellable Wall of Stone, despite that being common sense.
Actually, there is a way to get a permanent ability enhancement through an instant duration spell. You can get them through Inherent bonuses granted by things such as Wish spells. The rules simply made these sorts of bonuses hard to get so that things don't get out of hand.
You're right about WoP not being able to create permanent walls of stone, but at least it has a duration in rounds so that the wall stays around long enough to do something (unlike a wall that appears and disappears in less than a second). I guess that one would qualify as a limitation of the words of power system, but at least the wall of stone effect word is usable as long as you don't reduce its duration to instant.