How the Wizard out Sorceries the Sorcerer


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So this is a bit of my problem with UM:

Human Wizard(generalist)
Arcane Bond(amulet)
Feats:
B -- Spell Focus(Evocation) -- (PFS variant wizard)
1 -- Spell Focus(Transmutation)
H -- Spell Specialization
3 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Spell Focus(Abjuration)
5 -- Spell Specialization
7 -- Spell Specialization
9 -- Greater Spell Specialization
B -- Quicken Spell
11 -- Spell Specialization
13 -- Spell Specialization
15 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Persistent Spell
17 -- Spell Specialization
19 -- Spell Specialization
B -- (whatever)

Equipment: Amulet of Magecraft (set to conjuration)

*****************************************

The above wizard has 9 spells he can spontaneously cast and an entire school of magic he can do so from and he can change which school of magic every day. Every time he hits and even level he can change all of his spontaneous spells known out at the same time as opposed to the sorcerer's one spell every even level.

In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.


Abraham spalding wrote:

So this is a bit of my problem with UM:

Human Wizard(generalist)
Arcane Bond(amulet)
Feats:
B -- Spell Focus(Evocation) -- (PFS variant wizard)
1 -- Spell Focus(Transmutation)
H -- Spell Specialization
3 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Spell Focus(Abjuration)
5 -- Spell Specialization
7 -- Spell Specialization
9 -- Greater Spell Specialization
B -- Quicken Spell
11 -- Spell Specialization
13 -- Spell Specialization
15 -- Spell Specialization
B -- Persistent Spell
17 -- Spell Specialization
19 -- Spell Specialization
B -- (whatever)

Equipment: Amulet of Magecraft (set to conjuration)

*****************************************

The above wizard has 9 spells he can spontaneously cast and an entire school of magic he can do so from and he can change which school of magic every day. Every time he hits and even level he can change all of his spontaneous spells known out at the same time as opposed to the sorcerer's one spell every even level.

In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.

You seem to have burnt alot of feats achieving this....


Abraham spalding wrote:


In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.

Nice, but he blew tons upon tons of feats to pull it off. And he still doesn't get the same number of spells per day.


TarkXT wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.

Nice, but he blew tons upon tons of feats to pull it off. And he still doesn't get the same number of spells per day.

Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

Also he has an entire school of magic to spontaneously cast from -- that alone puts him higher in 'spontaneous spells known' than the sorcerer (that isn't human).

Primarily this is supposed to be an example of just how much the sorcerer is getting walked on.

I agree it is a lot of feats (I am taking it to an extreme) but the question would be is it worth it to the player? Personally having spells I can always fall back on and know I have is worth a lot to me -- especially when I can have 9 of them and more.


Abraham spalding wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

But is still expending another resource to pull it off.


TarkXT wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

But is still expending another resource to pull it off.

Yes, but the question is am I doing what I suggested I can do? Am I outdoing the sorcerer at his own game?

The answer is a resounding yes:

Even if I buy two of each pearl of power to have as many spells per day as the sorcerer it's "only" going to cost: 570,000 gp at level 20. Leaving me with enough for my Int boosters, a cloak of resistance +5 and a metamagic rod or three.

In return I can prepare all my spells for the day and still change them out for other spells, ignoring one school of magic completely since if I need it I can change out for it when I want.

Grand Lodge

TarkXT wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

But is still expending another resource to pull it off.

True but you're also not getting the use of some of the really nice metamagic feats. Yes there are rods but rods and pearls and other things add up and get expensive.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.

Nice, but he blew tons upon tons of feats to pull it off. And he still doesn't get the same number of spells per day.

Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

Also he has an entire school of magic to spontaneously cast from -- that alone puts him higher in 'spontaneous spells known' than the sorcerer (that isn't human).

Primarily this is supposed to be an example of just how much the sorcerer is getting walked on.

No it isn't it's just a proof that any system can be broken if you deliberately decide to screw it around. The wizard is gimping himself featwise and it's not statted out how much he's spending in resources to do so. Give those same resources to the sorcerer and we can probably give an example on how he'll out wiz the wizard. :)

You can make a whole host of assumptions if you....

1. throw infinite amounts of gold and MagicMart to spend it in.

2. really don't care on how well a job the class is supposed to be doing in what it's designing for.

3. keep it all to a nice one-sided argument.


Human Arcane Sorcerer (Sage)
Favored Class Bonus: Extra spells

Feats:
B -- Expanded Arcana
1 -- Expanded Arcana
3 -- Expanded Arcana
5 -- Expanded Arcana
7 -- Expanded Arcana
9 -- Expanded Arcana
11 -- Expanded Arcana
13 -- Expanded Arcana
15 -- Expanded Arcana
17 -- Expanded Arcana
19 -- Expanded Arcana

This sorcerer gains 20 extra spells known from his favored class as well as 11 or 22 extra spells from expanded arcana, depending on whether he chooses the same level spell or two of the level below when choosing the feat. This means he could end up knowing:

9 Cantrips
9 1st level spells
9 2nd level spells
8 3rd level spells
8 4th level spells
8 5th level spells
7 6th level spells
7 7th level spells
7 8th level spells
5 9th level spells

or

15 Cantrips
10 1st level spells
10 2nd level spells
9 3rd level spells
9 4th level spells
9 5th level spells
8 6th level spells
8 7th level spells
8 8th level spells
4 9th level spells

This is quite a lot of spells. And he can cast ALL of them spontaneously. You could say he was infringing upon Wizard territory, right? I know the build is far from optimal and you'd probably need to take some metamagic and other stuff in there as well, but it's sometimes good to see things from the other perspective, too.


LazarX wrote:


No it isn't it's just a proof that any system can be broken if you deliberately decide to screw it around. The wizard is gimping himself featwise and it's not statted out how much he's spending in resources to do so. Give those same resources the sorcerer and we can probably give an example on how he'll out wiz the wizard. :)

You go right ahead and do that. I want to see the sorcerer out wizard the wizard. I do not think it can be done.

I didn't hide how much this wizard is spending, and it isn't like those resources spent are somehow keeping him from doing his job -- if fact I would argue he can now do his job better since he can have a much larger variety of spells available at all times. Even with the pearls of power he has enough for the 191,000 gp he needs for stat boosts (which puts him up to 761,000 gp spent. That leaves 119,000gp for the following:

Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000gp)
Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell (35,000gp)
Spells


Abraham spalding wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:


Pearls of Power.

Cheap, easy and still has power (and money) to burn.

But is still expending another resource to pull it off.

Yes, but the question is am I doing what I suggested I can do? Am I outdoing the sorcerer at his own game?

The answer is a resounding yes:

Even if I buy two of each pearl of power to have as many spells per day as the sorcerer it's "only" going to cost: 570,000 gp at level 20. Leaving me with enough for my Int boosters, a cloak of resistance +5 and a metamagic rod or three.

In return I can prepare all my spells for the day and still change them out for other spells, ignoring one school of magic completely since if I need it I can change out for it when I want.

Congratulations?

You forget the bit where you need to get said spells to scribe in your spellbook.

I think you're better off being a wizard rather than being better than an unfocused sorcerer. Where as a specialist is still going to cast certain spells far better than you.

It's impressive no doubt but the sorcerer expended zero resources to do what he's able to do. Now he's able to cross into other bloodlines, can still grab spells outside of the typical sorc/wiz spell list. Is still far mroe charming and likable than the wizard. And still doesn't rely on his spellbook or spell component pouch like the wizard.

Remember the wizard could still fake spontaneous casting to a degree wiht partial memorization.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Even though the Sorc in your example has an astounding amount of spells known being able to spontaneously cast from an entire school of magic will still just straight up wreck it. The major thing to remember is Wizards don't have a "spell known" cap since they can just keep adding spells to their book which increases their flexibility and their silliness.


Ellington wrote:

Human Arcane Sorcerer (Sage)

Favored Class Bonus: Extra spells

That's 77 spells known total for the first.

90 spells known for the second.

Now lets compare that to my above wizard's spontaneous casting:

9 (from feats) + Transmutation School + 1(arcane bond)

Transmutation spells per level:
4 -- cantrips
20 -- 1st level spells (core and apg)
19 -- 2nd level spells
17 -- 3rd level spells
8 -- 4th level spells
14 -- 5th level spells
20 -- 6th level spells
12 -- 7th level spells
5 -- 8th level spells
5 -- 9th level spells

Total spontaneous spells known: 133

That's 132 spells I can change into and 1 extra spell for the day -- I still get all the spells I prepare for the day added to that as a choice to cast for the day.

And I have my metamagic -- at least 3 feats can go into that for me (two I choose and another one).

I can do everything I normally would do as a wizard and still do the sorcerer's job too.


Ok...so you can out sorceror a sorceror who only casts Transmutation spells.

That's an interesting aside, but I don't think it proves your point at all. You are still limited to only 9 non-Transmutation spells that you can cast spontaneously.


*shrug*

He's still not as versatile, doesn't have any of the bloodline powers and has wasted a ton of resources the sorcerer is using to be more effective. Can you turn a L.20 Wizard into a passable generalist Sorcerer? I suppose. But it ain't the real thing and the whole party suffers from having a less effective spellcaster all the way up from level 1.


Aldin wrote:

*shrug*

He's still not as versatile, doesn't have any of the bloodline powers and has wasted a ton of resources the sorcerer is using to be more effective. Can you turn a L.20 Wizard into a passable generalist Sorcerer? I suppose. But it ain't the real thing and the whole party suffers from having a less effective spellcaster all the way up from level 1.

Indeed, I'd rather havea wzarding wizard than a sorcing wizard.


Cheapy wrote:

Ok...so you can out sorceror a sorceror who only casts Transmutation spells.

That's an interesting aside, but I don't think it proves your point at all. You are still limited to only 9 non-Transmutation spells that you can cast spontaneously.

Except that 9 spells I can change into plus the transmutation (which offers many, many spells you will want on a regular basis) -- that doesn't cover the fact that I have a full day's worth of spells prepared to begin with.

So if I have:
0th -- Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Resistance, Detect Poison
1st -- Magic Missile, Chill Touch, Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Grease, Alarm, Protection from Evil
2nd -- Mirror Image, Ghoul Touch, Scorching Ray, Web, Glitterdust, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy
3rd -- Web, Stinking Cloud, Vampiric Touch, Fireball, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle of Protection
4th -- D.Door, D.Anchor, Resilient Sphere, Persistent Glitterdust...

And so on I can still cast all those spells -- or trade them out.
I have all my normal wizardly versatility and the versatility of a sorcerer too. I effectively have another spell per spell prepared that I know that I can choose to cast.

Each spell slot is in effect another use of a different spell that isn't on my spontaneous list, on top of my spontaneous list.

EDIT: The pearls actually extend this even more since they are per level -- I can choose to get back any of my prepared spells giving me more versatility than I started with since I can effectively choose them again.

**************************************

So my question is: What did I give up? Toughness? Weapon Focus? What?


Abraham spalding wrote:
So my question is: What did I give up? Toughness? Weapon Focus? What?

Well, to be perfectly fair, you probably needed to take Eschew Materials. You should probably also make yourself take four bloodline feats, which gets you closer to what a real Sorcerer can do. Beyond that, you gave up your Familiar. Still, you won't have quite everything the Sorc can do and by taking those five feats you're going to be quite a bit further away on trying to replicate the spellcasting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
LazarX wrote:


No it isn't it's just a proof that any system can be broken if you deliberately decide to screw it around. The wizard is gimping himself featwise and it's not statted out how much he's spending in resources to do so. Give those same resources the sorcerer and we can probably give an example on how he'll out wiz the wizard. :)

You go right ahead and do that. I want to see the sorcerer out wizard the wizard. I do not think it can be done.

I think Ellington gave a good example just above your post.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aldin wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
So my question is: What did I give up? Toughness? Weapon Focus? What?
Well, to be perfectly fair, you probably needed to take Eschew Materials.

.

That'a freebie for sorcerers they get it as a class feature.


LazarX wrote:
Aldin wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
So my question is: What did I give up? Toughness? Weapon Focus? What?
Well, to be perfectly fair, you probably needed to take Eschew Materials.

.

That'a freebie for sorcerers they get it as a class feature.

Right - and Wizards don't so if he wants his Wizard to our Sorc a Sorc the Wiz should take Eschew Materials.


Eschew Materials is a bit of splitting hairs. . .

I knew the Spell Specialization line was probably too good. This example isn't perfect, but it shows that the feats are on the border of being too powerful.

Oh -- a question: what's the PFS variant I keep seeing? Does it involve getting a bonus feat instead of traits?


While he's at it he needs to take spell mastery for all of his spells.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
meabolex wrote:

Eschew Materials is a bit of splitting hairs. . .

I knew the Spell Specialization line was probably too good. This example isn't perfect, but it shows that the feats are on the border of being too powerful.

Oh -- a question: what's the PFS variant I keep seeing? Does it involve getting a bonus feat instead of traits?

The PFS variant makes the wizard trade scribe scroll for Spell Focus since item creation feats are not allowed.


I agree with Abe here, and that Paizo went a bit too far...

And really, he doesn`t need to spontaneous cast EVERY spell slot into ANY and EVERY school, since a huge number of spells are `standards` that the sorceror doesn`t benefit from spontaneous casting, he can PLAN on casting certain staple spells... Spontaneous Casting shines for the surprises, and Abe`s build is really superior there because of the massive spell known advantage. If he`s a Witch instead of a Wizard, he can get more spells for free from other Witch`s familiars.

So he could save a few Feats for other things like other metamagic feats,
take a familiar instead of item bond, etc...

OK, now with Bloodlines, there will certainly be a difference between any given sorceror and what he can achieve with this, but the point is not literally matching EVERY aspect 1:1, it`s that there isn`t much if any effective difference in what Sorcerors AS A GROUP (i.e. generically) can offer play-style wise. Abe`s build still has the Universalist benefits (and could even go in for any School Specialization with bonus slots and abilities, he doesn`t really need the Bonded Item to get 95% of this build`s effect).

I don`t think the posted `Sorceror trying to be a Wizard` is at all comparable. It only looks close to achieving that end if you compare it to Abe`s `Spontaneous Wizard`. If you compare it to a Wizard NOT trying to bypass the fundamental structure of Prepared Caster, it falls flat.

Of course, playing to your classes` strength gives you WAY more freedom to spend your feats elsewhere, and most people will continue to do so. But Abe`s concept here is completely scalable, if you only want to dedicate half of your feats to this concept, you`re getting proportional pay-back (or I would say disproportionate, again because Spontaneous only benefits for SURPRISES, and you can prepare for the staples easily).


The bloodline powers offer next to nothing. Flight? Ok I have that -- overland flight, or the fly spell both come at about the same time, and duration (actually overland flight beats the level 15 flight methods hollow). Blasting? Please I have it in all the flavors of the rainbow, and a few extra to boot. Claws? Energy Resistance?

The 'biggest' deal would be the few skill boosts or permanently on spells (like non-detection and alter self for the Rakasha) and even those are lack luster at best.

Eschew materials might be an issue -- but a very small one. Spell Mastery is of mixed need -- and honestly doesn't even cover the fact that the sorcerer has nothing to match what I have in this build.

Lets be honest -- anything the sorcerer is getting from bloodlines simply doesn't make up for everything he's not getting for not being a wizard and is often nothing more than a single use per day spell like ability, if it is even that useful.


Can't the sorcerer play wizard just by buying a whole bunch of spell scrolls and wands?


Abraham spalding wrote:

The bloodline powers offer next to nothing. Flight? Ok I have that -- overland flight, or the fly spell both come at about the same time, and duration (actually overland flight beats the level 15 flight methods hollow). Blasting? Please I have it in all the flavors of the rainbow, and a few extra to boot. Claws? Energy Resistance?

The 'biggest' deal would be the few skill boosts or permanently on spells (like non-detection and alter self for the Rakasha) and even those are lack luster at best.

Eschew materials might be an issue -- but a very small one. Spell Mastery is of mixed need -- and honestly doesn't even cover the fact that the sorcerer has nothing to match what I have in this build.

Lets be honest -- anything the sorcerer is getting from bloodlines simply doesn't make up for everything he's not getting for not being a wizard and is often nothing more than a single use per day spell like ability, if it is even that useful.

Blood line powers are what make a Sorcerer. With out those you are just a second class wizard. Now they aren't great powers in most case but they are all the flavor that makes Sorcerers fun to play. Wizard are powerful at high level but so dull to play.

The Exchange

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Abraham spalding wrote:

Yes, but the question is am I doing what I suggested I can do? Am I outdoing the sorcerer at his own game?

The answer is a resounding yes:

No, you're not. The sorcerer is still better at his game. Since he didn't have to spend every resource he has catching up to himself he'll instead have more hit points (toughness), a higher initiative (improved initiative), higher spell DCs (greater spell focus), more spell penetration (spell penetration/greater spell penetration), plus whatever metamagic feats that he ends up taking and his bloodline powers.

Oh, and then there's the part about you spending all your gold on scribing, pearls of power, and metamagic rods. Since I don't have those resources allocated I can cover other things that save encounters.

I also still end up casting more spells per day than you do. The build isn't horrible, but it's by no means better at being a sorcerer than a sorcerer.


Abraham spalding wrote:

The bloodline powers offer next to nothing. Flight? Ok I have that -- overland flight, or the fly spell both come at about the same time, and duration (actually overland flight beats the level 15 flight methods hollow). Blasting? Please I have it in all the flavors of the rainbow, and a few extra to boot. Claws? Energy Resistance?

Extra Reach with Touch spells

The entire Arcane Bloodline
Rerolls on certain checks
Automatic ciritcals on some spells
Spells from lists outside of the Sorc/wiz list.

You basically described the worst stuff that the bloodlines have to offer.

Shadow Lodge

I agree with TarkXT.

The Aberrant bloodline gets you half-Extended Polymorphs for free, extra reach with Touch spells, and the ability to negate crits and sneak attacks.

Sure, you could take Extend Spell and Reach Spell and/or Spectral Hand... but now you don't have to, and you don't have to cast extra spells for the benefit.


Demoyn wrote:
I also still end up casting more spells per day than you do. The build isn't horrible, but it's by no means better at being a sorcerer than a sorcerer.

No you don't have more spells per day. I have the 2 extra that you get each level covered with the pearls of power remember?

Spell Penetration? Very iffy if needed -- besides with entire schools of magic at my beck and call I can avoid the spells that would need to worry about it, yes you'll have a school or two that you can SoD better than me -- but then you don't have the wide selection of spells either, and you are much more likely to be caught with the wrong spell.

The supposed 'biggest' thing about sorcerers is the spontaneous casting -- and I out spontaneous cast them.

Metamagic feats are nice -- mine are faster of course, I have 6 free uses a day besides what I might prepare or have in rods.

The Arcane bloodline does crap for the sorcerer. "Oh a few times a day I can almost use metamagic without screwing myself" -- Reach with touch spells... there is a feat for that (reach spell) which could be a rod of course. Automatic criticals only matter if you are making attack rolls with a spell -- not very common.

The problem with the spells from other spellcaster's list are the spells you get stink. If you got heal, or breath of life, or good hope or something good alright I would buy that -- but the spells you get are... bless? And I'm supposed to be impressed with this?

Face it -- the sorcerer gets school -- he might have a date, but that's about it (and even there the wizard is likely to be able to match).

**************************************************

So what is the sorcerer doing better? He might have a few more HP (I have my favored class bonus I could put there, to make up for his taking toughness) -- if he isn't concerned with actually having access to the spells he needs, and plans on getting hit regularly. He might be able to grow claws... for all the good that is going to do him. Free reach with touch spells is nice, but then it isn't something I can't have with a second level spell slot or feat.

***************************************************

So the sorcerer might suck less at a few things -- a big *might* there too -- but he doesn't have more spell slots now, he doesn't have more versatility on a daily basis now, he can't change up spells on a whim, his bloodline powers are available for almost anyone, and even then most of them are simple spell effects that you can have at the same level anyways.

Just to finish the wizard build off we'll actually give him stats too (using 20 point buy since I'm staying fairly close to PFS standard here):

Str 10 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 12.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
I also still end up casting more spells per day than you do. The build isn't horrible, but it's by no means better at being a sorcerer than a sorcerer.

No you don't have more spells per day. I have the 2 extra that you get each level covered with the pearls of power remember?

If you are using consumable items to increase the number of spells cast, then wouldn't it be equally fair to use consumable items to increase the repertoire of the sorcerer?

Shadow Lodge

I hear all this talk about pearls of power and metamagic rods...

How much money are you expecting to have?

Can you be so sure you'll be allowed it?

(Incidentally, I've never seen, much less had, a metamagic rod. Sure, sticking to low levels can do that, but more importantly, I've played in a lot of groups that ban them.)


And many groups could ban stuff like Sorceror Favored Class Bonus for Humans giving bonus spells known, or the Extra Arcana Feat giving more spells known. Metamagic Rods are completely standard fare for ANY Caster, even banning APG. Choosing not to use them just shows you are not playing the same game as described by the Core Rules. This is discussing what Paizo has made of the RAW rules enabled by Complete Arcana. You`re free to ban Complete Arcana itself.

Buying wands, etc, to expand spell repertoire is a great idea for Sorcerors, but it is ultimately much less flexible, and has other problems like not sufficing for where DC / SR / Caster Level is important, besides needing to draw/swap extra items, etc. As I suggested, following Abe`s build TO THE HILT is not necessary to achieve the majority of it`s effect, so spending Feats/Class Options on Familars, Eldritch Heritage, Grt Spell Focus, other MM Feats, is more than reasonable, and will still achieve more or less the same outcome, namely effectively removing any advantage/niche Sorcerors had from `generic` Spontaneous Casting.

It`s not a matter of there being NO difference between what a Sorceror can achieve vs. a Wizard, but of the line being very much blurred, and very much to the benefit of Wizard`s power/build options. If the Feats Abe is using hadn`t been published, would people be crying for the Wizard? No. So maybe they didn`t really need to be published. Is `Wizard being a Sorceror` really an `archetype` that the game was crying out for?

Sovereign Court

Caedwyr wrote:
If you are using consumable items to increase the number of spells cast, then wouldn't it be equally fair to use consumable items to increase the repertoire of the sorcerer?

What, you mean like scrolls? Thus giving both the wizard and sorcerer unlimited magic and equal power?

As someone whose actually played a sorcerer from level 1 to 16-ish, you get plenty of spells without trying to nab 30 more spells with feats and favored class bonuses especially when you consider all the different magic items that exist that emulate spells.

All this talk of better is garbage. It's a game sure, but it's just for fun. These UM threads are getting out of hand.


InVinoVeritas wrote:

I hear all this talk about pearls of power and metamagic rods...

How much money are you expecting to have?

Can you be so sure you'll be allowed it?

(Incidentally, I've never seen, much less had, a metamagic rod. Sure, sticking to low levels can do that, but more importantly, I've played in a lot of groups that ban them.)

I went with the 880k for level 20 that you are supposed to have. Please note that I've spent no more than this -- the wizard 'needs' 155,000 for his inherent bonus to Int, and 36,000 for his headband as well as 25,000 for a cloak of resistance +5. There are many other things that are useful (like the ring of freedom of movement) but not in and of themselves mandatory in the same way.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
(Incidentally, I've never seen, much less had, a metamagic rod. Sure, sticking to low levels can do that, but more importantly, I've played in a lot of groups that ban them.)

Wow. What drives the groups to ban those? I wonder how many groups ban magic weapons or armor. . .

Shadow Lodge

meabolex wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
(Incidentally, I've never seen, much less had, a metamagic rod. Sure, sticking to low levels can do that, but more importantly, I've played in a lot of groups that ban them.)
Wow. What drives the groups to ban those? I wonder how many groups ban magic weapons or armor. . .

Mostly out of sheer dullness, since they don't actually do anything by themselves.

Shadow Lodge

Human Wordcaster Sorcerer (any bloodline)
Favored Class Bonus: Extra spells (ie, extra effect/meta words)

Number of spells known: Damn near infinite.


Kthulhu wrote:

Human Wordcaster Sorcerer (any bloodline)

Favored Class Bonus: Extra spells (ie, extra effect/meta words)

Number of spells known: Damn near infinite.

No... 90 at most -- we've covered this already.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Mr. Spalding I believe Kthulu is changing the game by going with Wordcasting as opposed to the standard spell system. This adds more flexibility but at the same time completely removes some options such as Create Demiplane.


This is an unwinnable argument. There is a lot the Sorcerer can do that your theory Wizard can't, but you've rule zero'd that anything the Sorc has beyond the Wiz is no big deal and who cares anyway? Fine, you win. You can build a Wizard that does everything you personally want a Sorcerer to do, so play a Wizard. Me? I really like the Bloodline stuff and think spending >500,000 on pearls of power instead of other nifty magical baubles is foolish and wasteful.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
Mostly out of sheer dullness, since they don't actually do anything by themselves.

I guess pure power is kind of boring. How 'bout +5 weapons -- pretty dull if you ask me. . .


Wordcasters don't benefit from the favored class bonus spells known thing (James Jacobs covered that somewhere).

Regardless of the wizard out-sorcering the sorcerer. I'll still be making out with her rather than the wizard.

Shadow Lodge

meabolex wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
Mostly out of sheer dullness, since they don't actually do anything by themselves.
I guess pure power is kind of boring. How 'bout +5 weapons -- pretty dull if you ask me. . .

Yeah, we never see those in game, either. They'll be holy flaming weapons with individual names and histories and the like instead.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Demoyn wrote:
I also still end up casting more spells per day than you do. The build isn't horrible, but it's by no means better at being a sorcerer than a sorcerer.

No you don't have more spells per day. I have the 2 extra that you get each level covered with the pearls of power remember?

Well spending some of gold saved on pearls, the arcane sorcerer could outfit himself with up to three ring of wizardry IV, giving him additionally 18 lvl 4 spells, which might become 18 quickened Phantasmal Killer with +6 DC and +8 against spell resistance by using some of the feats you do (2 metamagic feats, spell perfection, greater spell focus, spell penetration+greater).

Or he could choose 18 quickened intensified fireballs at +11 DC, by spending two feats more.

The Exchange

Abraham spalding wrote:


So what is the sorcerer doing better? He might have a few more HP (I have my favored class bonus I could put there, to make up for his taking toughness)

You really need to join a debate class. There's no logic in your arguments and the "la la la I can't hear you" defense just isn't cutting it.

It can NOT be argued that you're better simply because you spend resources which I ALSO GET on things to make up for your deficiencies. Your argument is that you make up for toughness by spending your favored class bonus on hit points, but what nonchalantly toss my favored class bonus in the trash. You argue that money can buy you more spells but don't give a second thought to my money.

Listen. You know you're wrong. I know you're wrong. Everyone else knows you're wrong. Just simply admit that you're wrong and let this senseless babble be finished.


Being able to cast a such a low number of spells spontaneously does not make you a sorcerer, especially not a better one if you are spending so many feats to do so. While you are doing a poor imitation of the sorcerer he is using his options to excel at what comes naturally.

It look ok on paper, and since my experience has been that things that look awesome normally downgrade to good in the game. I can only give this one "meh" at best.

There is no improved initiative, combat casting or anything else.

Super focused characters should be good at the focus which is why I am not really impressed.


Demoyn wrote:
hyperbole

Let me put it this way:

You haven't proven a thing. You've 'stated' stuff -- others have done the same -- but no one has proven that this build is any less of a wizard. No one has proven that a sorcerer is able to out wizard (let alone match a wizard) on anything -- no one has proven that this build isn't better than the sorcerer on the sorcerer's primary focus -- casting spells spontaneously.

So build a sorcerer that actually gives the wizard a run for his money.

The problem is I've taken a stand -- you've taken pot shots but have provided nothing substantial.

The only one that has even made the attempt is Ellington (tip of the hat for the attempt by the way).

You have stated 'this build isn't good' -- now back up that claim. The primary issue you are going to have with that is the fact that I have removed the last barrier on the wizard -- I actually can have all those spells at my finger tips ready to cast as needed, wanted, or on a whim. I still have everything I would have as a wizard, and now I have more.

I could give up say five of those feats and grab the bloodline powers as well if you wish -- then what? Suddenly I have 128 spells known for spontaneous casting, 123 of which I can trade out for an entirely different list each day, and the bloodline powers, and the regular wizarding abilities.

The one thing that everyone has always stated made the sorcerer "even" has been the fact the wizard was 'stuck' with his spells. That since he had to prepare them he was in practice even with the sorcerer who had all his spells all the time.

Now that's gone.

In fact everything about the sorcerer has been pimped out (not that there was much to begin with) spontaneous casting, and bloodline abilities.

I can't help the fact that the bloodline abilities on a whole suck. That isn't my fault and if you check the archives you'll find I have long been an advocate of making the sorcerer more than the lameness it is today.

Even the oracle helps prove this point -- when the oracle gains blasting abilities they can use those abilities much more often than the sorcerer can (and often to better effect too) -- precisely because Piazo realize, "damn the sorcerer abilities suck -- blasting once per day is lame, and these low level ray effect simply stink."

The two things that 'made a sorcerer' are now for anyone with a few feats -- not that they weren't already with a few spells or items.

So again I ask you -- what is unique about the sorcerer? What is it about the sorcerer that is now somehow special? How in the world can it even begin to be considered remotely worthwhile when everything about it has been pimped out?

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