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Anthropomorphic Animal... Why?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Dark Archive

Now that I've finally gotten my copy of Ultimate Magic I'm trying to understand the point of this spell.
Other then just giving the Furries something to do in their off time I fail to see any advantage of using this spell especially on an animal companion (familiar's maybe if you intend to make them max out UMD).

Anthropomorphic Animal:

You transform the touched animal into a bipedal hybrid
of its original form with a humanoid form, similar to how
a lycanthrope’s hybrid form is a mix of a humanoid and
animal form. The animal’s size, type, and ability scores do
not change. It loses its natural attacks except for bite (if it
had one as an animal), all types of movement other than
its land speed, and special attacks that rely on its natural
attacks. One pair of its limbs is able to manipulate objects
and weapons as well as human hands do; limbless animals
like snakes temporarily grow a pair of arms. The creature’s
Intelligence increases to 3, and it gains the ability to speak
one language you know. It is not considered proficient in any
manufactured weapons. It can attack with unarmed strikes,
dealing unarmed strike damage for a creature of its size
(unless it has a bite attack, which is a natural attack).

From the spell description you take a perfectly good animal, strip it of all it's special abilities, movement types & speed, and all it's attacks as well as the superior natural attack style (better then iterative attacks).
In exchange for this it gets thumbs (but no proficiency in weapons or tools), a single language and just enough brains to realize what you did to it and be PO'ed about it. Add to this it only lasts for a couple of hours and it seems kinda useless.

Unless you intend to throw your familiar out there with a wand and a bulls-eye on his back the only use I can think of for this spell is to make that Brothel in town really special.
./shiver

Dark Archive

It exists to allow character like Dr Moreau or Frantisek Markov.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

The animal keeps it's bite attack, and it's land speed, so it doesn't lose everything. It also keeps any cool senses it may have had, like Scent.

Take a wolf, for example. Yeah, it loses it's trip ability. But it gains the ability to open doors, use tools, speak a language, climb a cliff, and do all sorts of cool stuff.

It's a great spell for getting animals into places animals usually can't go.

Dark Archive

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The animal keeps it's bite attack, and it's land speed, so it doesn't lose everything. It also keeps any cool senses it may have had, like Scent.

Take a wolf, for example. Yeah, it loses it's trip ability. But it gains the ability to open doors, use tools, speak a language, climb a cliff, and do all sorts of cool stuff.

It's a great spell for getting animals into places animals usually can't go.

Ok, it keeps it's bite, it's senses and learns to speak a language BUT with the new definition for what animals can do from the last blog post it still cannot use tools, have a conversation, open doors or really do ANYTHING without you spending an action using handle animal to show it how and make it do it. (remember, if it hasn't been trained to do it with a handle animal check and a few weeks of training you have to push it to do anything now)

Add to that since it only lasts a few hours everything you teach it to do goes away when it's Int drops back to 2 and it loses the extra tricks it learned.

As for creating a Dr Moreau or Frantisek Markov it fails at that as well. It doesn't last long enough, takes away all the best parts of the animal types you used, grants you NO control or influence over the creatures and restricts you from using most of the other useful spells to actually create the animal-men the spell like those two archetypes were after.
The no longer qualify for the Awaken spell since their Int is now too high.
They are humanoids but still flagged as animals so the enlarge person and animal growth spell no longer works.
They can't use any weapons but lost their natural attacks (except bite but lost everything tied to that) so magic weapon/magic fang no longer work.

I really can't see any use for this spell at the level it's gained except as fluff (not even RP fluff just plain old my character was doing this before the adventure starts fluff).


The vivisectionist can make it permanent. You do not need to use Handle animal sense it has an Int of 3, and animals can learn to use door knobs on their own (trust me). It also says that it's int "increases" to 3, if it was already above 3, it would not change. They would be great henchman for a villain vivisectionist.


Sounds like a prime spell for the Permanancy Other spells at GM discretion rider.

Gods know I wish Paizo would add that info line for can or cannot be made permanent and the cost associated with making permananet new spells introduced in suppliments.

I understand some GM Flex there but to see an increasingly unfolding spectrum helps make some of those negotiation about what can and cannot be a little easier.


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.

Sczarni

Could you play an animal with anthropomorphic animal and permanency cast on it?

Dark Archive

Kierato wrote:
The vivisectionist can make it permanent. You do not need to use Handle animal sense it has an Int of 3, and animals can learn to use door knobs on their own (trust me). It also says that it's int "increases" to 3, if it was already above 3, it would not change. They would be great henchman for a villain vivisectionist.

Any class with Permanency (or a scroll) can make it permanent not the point, it's why bother making it permanent.

As for the rest according to the latest posting regarding animal intelligence it doesn't matter how high you push their Int as long as they are flagged (Animal) you need to use the Handle Animal skill to get them to do ANYTHING that is not defined as one of their tricks.

Since the can only learn about 9 tricks with a 3 Int they are very limited in what they can do. Generally it's Fight, Work, Perform or Carry anything else falls into a MUCH harder category to teach them. Look at the example difficulties for teaching one something as simple as come when you call (DC 15), imagine the DC for something really hard like frying an egg.

As for using them as a Villain Henchmen that would be great except it's too stupid to to do anything except EXACTLY what it's told, can't fight for crap (lost it's own weapons and can't use any you give it) doesn't stay humanoid long enough and at the level where you can make it last it's so weak the heroes will walk over it like it wasn't there.

Now if the spell where a higher level, like 5th-6th and combined the Awaken Spell the humanoid shape and let it keep SOME of it's animal abilities (movement type, 1 or 2 of it's natural attacks + abilities) then this would be an uber spell, as is it's kinda useless.

Caedwyr wrote:


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.

Wont work, as soon as the drain goes away it becomes an invalid target and I'd hate to open that can of worms.

northbrb wrote:


Could you play an animal with anthropomorphic animal and permanency cast on it?

Sure if you want to play a Int 3 super moron who permanently turns back into a 4 legged whatever the first time you hit a dispel magic.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think Mathwei is right: anthropomorphic animals, even with hands and an Int score of 3, can't use tools. Anthropomorphic animals, even with speech and an Int score of 3, require Handle Animal rolls from anyone to do anything that's not one of their tricks.

I think this is unfortunate, and not within keeping with the spirit of the ability. But awaken solves all these issues.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Now if the spell where a higher level, like 5th-6th and combined the Awaken Spell the humanoid shape and let it keep SOME of it's animal abilities (movement type, 1 or 2 of it's natural attacks + abilities) then this would be an uber spell, as is it's kinda useless.

Says the man with the Anthropomorphic Hyena avatar?

Sounds like you are just looking for sonething to complain about, in which case no amount of information from othere will change your mind. Good luck to you if it comes up in your games.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Caedwyr wrote:


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.
Wont work, as soon as the drain goes away it becomes an invalid.

Awaken has a duration of Instantaneous. Which should mean that the target only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If the Int drain is restored at a latter point, the Awaken spell has already been cast and caused its changes, the Awaken spell is no longer active, and thus does not care that the target has changed.


It doesn't have to be especially good. It is not intended to make your animal companion a better killing machine than it already is, it is intended to give it, or random animals you meet, more human traits.

I like it for the flavor. I think it provides with an interesting mechanic, which could be used in some fun situations.

If you are deadset on it having to be an effective spell, consider using it as a debuff spell instead. If it gimps the animal so much, then use it against hostile animals, or the your druid enemy's animal companion.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Dragonsong wrote:


Gods know I wish Paizo would add that info line for can or cannot be made permanent and the cost associated with making permananet new spells introduced in suppliments.

I understand some GM Flex there but to see an increasingly unfolding spectrum helps make some of those negotiation about what can and cannot be a little easier.

They actually did, in this case:

"Anthropomorphic animal can be made permanent with a permanency spell cast by a caster of 11th level or higher at a cost of 7,500 gp."


It has been stated before that an animal companion with an int of 3 or higher no longer needs handle animal to command it, nor is it limited by tricks. A player character can have an int of 3 and still be functional (stupid, but functional). Being an animal is irrelevant (handle animal can be used on magical beasts with an int of 1 or 2).

Dark Archive

Caedwyr wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Caedwyr wrote:


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.
Wont work, as soon as the drain goes away it becomes an invalid.
Awaken has a duration of Instantaneous. Which should mean that the target only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If the Int drain is restored at a latter point, the Awaken spell has already been cast and caused its changes, the Awaken spell is no longer active, and thus does not care that the target has changed.

Hmm, that may work but still feels cludgy and really out of the spirit of the spells intent.

So you're thinking this spell should go Anthropomorphic Animal -> Int Drain -> Awaken -> Permanency as the most efficient method of use.
A bit expensive (about 10K) to get a furry friend but at that level it shouldn't be TOO bad.

My original question stands, what would you do with this spell to make it worth the 10,000 gold piece price tag?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

As to what the Anthropomorphic Animal can/can't do, it says they can "manipulate objects and weapons as well as a human hands do" and "gains the ability to speak one language you know".

That to me says the intent of the spell is to make a tool-using animal that can take spoken directions, and as such should overrule any restrictions placed on normal, unanthropomorphized animals. Maybe it could have been stated more explicitly, but I think it works well enough as-is.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:


Gods know I wish Paizo would add that info line for can or cannot be made permanent and the cost associated with making permananet new spells introduced in suppliments.

I understand some GM Flex there but to see an increasingly unfolding spectrum helps make some of those negotiation about what can and cannot be a little easier.

They actually did, in this case:

"Anthropomorphic animal can be made permanent with a permanency spell cast by a caster of 11th level or higher at a cost of 7,500 gp."

Fair enough as I won't be able to get the book till next Friday, I had no idea. But this is a format change I love. I wish they would add an erratta to the APG with those as well, and do this with any new spells in the future.


Caedwyr wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Caedwyr wrote:


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.
Wont work, as soon as the drain goes away it becomes an invalid.
Awaken has a duration of Instantaneous. Which should mean that the target only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If the Int drain is restored at a latter point, the Awaken spell has already been cast and caused its changes, the Awaken spell is no longer active, and thus does not care that the target has changed.

Keep in mind that animal companions gain feats. You could give your anthropomorphised animal companion full plate armour, a full set of magic items, and train him to power attack with a +5 greatsword. I reckon if you build your animal companion to capitalise on this spell, it's pretty damn AWESOME, especially since you can keep it on him the entire day with a few castings.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

My original question stands, what would you do with this spell to make it worth the 10,000 gold piece price tag?

Create your own island full of them because you're a mad scientist and evil like that?

Seriously, maybe this isn't the most efficient use of player character funds but so what? Its fun and its an option, if you don't like it simply don't take it.

Dark Archive

Greatest...spell...ever
Yes I'm biased.

I mean now I can make a cavalier that plays cards with his mount (which carries his swords around).


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Caedwyr wrote:


Also, you should be able to use Awaken on the Antrhomorphic Animal creature so long as you do enough int drain to the creature before casting awaken. Then use a restoration to get rid of the drain afterwards.
Wont work, as soon as the drain goes away it becomes an invalid.
Awaken has a duration of Instantaneous. Which should mean that the target only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If the Int drain is restored at a latter point, the Awaken spell has already been cast and caused its changes, the Awaken spell is no longer active, and thus does not care that the target has changed.

Hmm, that may work but still feels cludgy and really out of the spirit of the spells intent.

So you're thinking this spell should go Anthropomorphic Animal -> Int Drain -> Awaken -> Permanency as the most efficient method of use.
A bit expensive (about 10K) to get a furry friend but at that level it shouldn't be TOO bad.

My original question stands, what would you do with this spell to make it worth the 10,000 gold piece price tag?

Oh yeah, it is totally a kludgy hack that the spell allows, and probably not intended at all. As for what it allows, it'd give you 1-2 points extra intelligence, and a rubber-mask alien specicies for whatever purpose that would serve. I imagine this would make it easier in some ways to manipulate objects/buildings/structures in a civilized world designed for bipedal humanoids. Throw a hat of disguise in there, and the appearance issues can be dealt with as well. The whole schmazle would be vulnerable to dispel magic, much like any permanancy'd spell. I'm sure some min-maxer out there can find an animal with a special ability/sense/etc that would not be lost when changing shape and which would make this spelll worthwhile going through these gymnastics.

I'd guess anthropromorphic animal serves more of a purpose to fill some fairy-tale/classic horror tropes.


Alex Draconis wrote:

Greatest...spell...ever

Yes I'm biased.

I mean now I can make a cavalier that plays cards with his mount (which carries his swords around).

I lol'ed. XD

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Alex Draconis wrote:

Greatest...spell...ever

Yes I'm biased.

I mean now I can make a cavalier that plays cards with his mount (which carries his swords around).

Oh god.

For some reason, now I can't get This out of my head (0:48 especially).


It also lets you create a Gargantuann T-rex person with Powerful Bite and Swallow Whole. Think Rex Ready.


Caedwyr wrote:
It also lets you create a Gargantuann T-rex person with Powerful Bite and Swallow Whole. Think Rex Ready.

Omg...imagine giving *that* guy gargantuan full plate armour and a gargantuan greatsword...


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Your in a jail cell, your familiar (a snake) can easily fit through the bars, but lacks the manual dexterity to lift up the key ring and work the door. You cast the spell, it doesn't.

Everyone but the party wizard/witch/sorceror/druid/ranger and their familiar/companion is down. Now the animal can help carry the fallen (or at least their stuff...).

A wizard or sorceror could cast it on their familiar and then use share spell to cast Transformation on it. That, with a fox familiar gives you a familiar that can wield a weapon, with Str 13 and Dex 20, with +4 natural armor. Throw in a Mage Armor, and you have your own little personal tank. It'll hurt a lot if you lose your familiar, but I know I've been in encounters that have gone bad enough that it would be a viable option.

The spell is definitely situational, but at the right time, or with the right combination of spells, there are some uses for it.


devil.in.mexico13 wrote:

Your in a jail cell, your familiar (a snake) can easily fit through the bars, but lacks the manual dexterity to lift up the key ring and work the door. You cast the spell, it doesn't.

Everyone but the party wizard/witch/sorceror/druid/ranger and their familiar/companion is down. Now the animal can help carry the fallen (or at least their stuff...).

A wizard or sorceror could cast it on their familiar and then use share spell to cast Transformation on it. That, with a fox familiar gives you a familiar that can wield a weapon, with Str 13 and Dex 20, with +4 natural armor. Throw in a Mage Armor, and you have your own little personal tank. It'll hurt a lot if you lose your familiar, but I know I've been in encounters that have gone bad enough that it would be a viable option.

The spell is definitely situational, but at the right time, or with the right combination of spells, there are some uses for it.

Keep in mind that the duration is hour per level, so a few (extended) castings will keep it on the animal all day!

If you really wanted to, you could even make a tiny +6 int headband, anthropomorphise your mouse familiar, give it a broad-rimmed hat with a feather and a tiny rapier-you now adventure with Reepicheep. =D

Dark Archive

devil.in.mexico13 wrote:

Your in a jail cell, your familiar (a snake) can easily fit through the bars, but lacks the manual dexterity to lift up the key ring and work the door. You cast the spell, it doesn't.

Everyone but the party wizard/witch/sorceror/druid/ranger and their familiar/companion is down. Now the animal can help carry the fallen (or at least their stuff...).

A wizard or sorceror could cast it on their familiar and then use share spell to cast Transformation on it. That, with a fox familiar gives you a familiar that can wield a weapon, with Str 13 and Dex 20, with +4 natural armor. Throw in a Mage Armor, and you have your own little personal tank. It'll hurt a lot if you lose your familiar, but I know I've been in encounters that have gone bad enough that it would be a viable option.

The spell is definitely situational, but at the right time, or with the right combination of spells, there are some uses for it.

And again he doesn't get the powerful bite or swallow whole, he loses all of that and just keeps the regular bite which is admittedly decent but not that great.

Nor can ANY anthropomorphic animal use ANY weapons or wear ANY armor. They require a feat to use those which they won't be eligible for until you:

A: Make them an animal companion or familiar then
B: Level them up to where they get multiple free feats (at least 2, 5 if you want Full plate plus a Greatsword)
C: Permanently make them humanoid
D: Take several weeks to train them with Handle Animal so they can use the weapons/armor you just gave them
E: Congrats they can now swing a big sword in a fight.

And sure you can use Transformation and turn your familiar into a midget warrior but I'm sure you could find a better use for a 6th lvl spell slot.

edit: If the party is down and we need to move the bodies it's better to keep the pet as a quadruped, they can carry more (up to 32x more at the same strength at gargantuan size)

Don't take me the wrong way, I like the idea of the spell but as written with the current rules it takes away more then it gives and requires you to be an 11th lvl caster to actually get anything out of this spell. If I have to wait that long to get much use out of it and need to use 2-3 spells too just make it a 5th-6th level spell and bundle all that into the spell itself.


One of the things I've been thinking is to take a magus with the familar arcana (Or a martially bent bard with the right eldritch heritiage) anthropormize it, and have it effectively act as your squire. Sure, not much crunch, but I'd think it makes a cool thematic.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
devil.in.mexico13 wrote:

Your in a jail cell, your familiar (a snake) can easily fit through the bars, but lacks the manual dexterity to lift up the key ring and work the door. You cast the spell, it doesn't.

Everyone but the party wizard/witch/sorceror/druid/ranger and their familiar/companion is down. Now the animal can help carry the fallen (or at least their stuff...).

A wizard or sorceror could cast it on their familiar and then use share spell to cast Transformation on it. That, with a fox familiar gives you a familiar that can wield a weapon, with Str 13 and Dex 20, with +4 natural armor. Throw in a Mage Armor, and you have your own little personal tank. It'll hurt a lot if you lose your familiar, but I know I've been in encounters that have gone bad enough that it would be a viable option.

The spell is definitely situational, but at the right time, or with the right combination of spells, there are some uses for it.

And again he doesn't get the powerful bite or swallow whole, he loses all of that and just keeps the regular bite which is admittedly decent but not that great.

Nor can ANY anthropomorphic animal use ANY weapons or wear ANY armor. They require a feat to use those which they won't be eligible for until you:

A: Make them an animal companion or familiar then
B: Level them up to where they get multiple free feats (at least 2, 5 if you want Full plate plus a Greatsword)
C: Permanently make them humanoid
D: Take several weeks to train them with Handle Animal so they can use the weapons/armor you just gave them
E: Congrats they can now swing a big sword in a fight.

And sure you can use Transformation and turn your familiar into a midget warrior but I'm sure you could find a better use for a 6th lvl spell slot.

edit: If the party is down and we need to move the bodies it's better to keep the pet as a quadruped, they can carry more (up to 32x more at the same strength at gargantuan size)

Don't take me the wrong way, I like the idea of the spell but as...

Pretty sure that the increase in intelligence negates the need for further training beyond giving them the requisite feats. 3 is the minimum for functional humanoid intelligence in pathfinder. With a good headband of intelligence given to them, you can actually have rather decent conversations with your animal companion/familiar. You could even play chess with them, although chances are you'd win. =)


Personally I like spells that provide more flavor and have no real specific "function", spells that allow or require thinking outside the box to do something cool.
The snake picking up the jail key for example is a great idea. But beyond that I think the spell allows you to accomplish something that other spells do not. With thought and perhaps other spells it can very well be the missing piece to something a caster wants to do.

Also, casting it on a squirrel to have them guide you through the woods is just kinda a cool mental image.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

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Poster with anthropomorphic avatar rallies against anthropomorphism-based spell.

Well, I say 'rallies'...

..but you know, 'posits a question concerning designers intent regarding new spell' just doesn't have the same zing.

Ya knoooooooow?

*shakes fist*


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Unless you intend to throw your familiar out there with a wand and a bulls-eye on his back the only use I can think of for this spell is to make that Brothel in town really special.
./shiver

Bow-chicka wow-wah.

Seriously though, depends if you like furries for that idea and have the money to spend for enough perminancies and in most cases you could probably just fill it with Tengu, Gnoll or something else that resembles a anthro if you wanted that ;)


Panguinslayer7 wrote:

Personally I like spells that provide more flavor and have no real specific "function", spells that allow or require thinking outside the box to do something cool.

The snake picking up the jail key for example is a great idea. But beyond that I think the spell allows you to accomplish something that other spells do not. With thought and perhaps other spells it can very well be the missing piece to something a caster wants to do.

Also, casting it on a squirrel to have them guide you through the woods is just kinda a cool mental image.

Would you say turning your familiar into Reepicheep is a cool mental image too? =D

Dark Archive

FiddlersGreen wrote:


Pretty sure that the increase in intelligence negates the need for further training beyond giving them the requisite feats. 3 is the minimum for functional humanoid intelligence in pathfinder. With a good headband of intelligence given to them, you can actually have rather decent conversations with your animal companion/familiar. You could even play chess with them, although chances are you'd win. =)

Ok, since this misunderstanding keeps coming up, let me post the official Paizo rulings regarding intelligent animals aand the link to it for you all.

Blog Post

Another aspect of intelligent animals is tool use. There are a number of feats that convey an understanding and the proper use of weapons and armor. Generally speaking, these feats are off-limits to animals, but when their intelligence reaches 3, the rules state that they can use any feat that they are physically capable of using. Some people take this to mean that they can equip their animal companion in chainmail and arm him with a greatsword given the correct feats. While you could interpret the rules in this way, the "capable of use" clause is very important. Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that. In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.

The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.

Following these guidelines you see that you
A: have to succeed on a handle animal check to get anything with the tag "animal" to do ANYTHING that is not one of it's trained tricks
B: Have to give it thumbs AND an int of 3 or higher before you can get it to use anything but it's own weapons
C: Burn a feat the animal has earned AFTER getting thumbs and Int 3+ AND a successful Handle Animal check to get it to use a weapon OR wear armor, Separate Feats.

Also with the examples given (open a door) in the post even the smartest animal in the game will need to be taught EVERYTHING and each individual trick takes a WEEK to teach.

Ewww.....


Rex Ready anyone?

(Gratuitous Bonus)


Caedwyr wrote:

Rex Ready anyone?

(Gratuitous Bonus)

No need to double post Rex hes more than potent enough to only appear once in a thread.

Shadow Lodge

I'm glad I'm not the only one a little confused by this one.

I think it's mostly a flavor thing but I'm sure a fair number of people will find uses for it.


Well, it's still do-able. Like you pointed out:

A: have to succeed on a handle animal check to get anything with the tag "animal" to do ANYTHING that is not one of it's trained tricks
B: Have to give it thumbs AND an int of 3 or higher before you can get it to use anything but it's own weapons
C: Burn a feat the animal has earned AFTER getting thumbs and Int 3+ AND a successful Handle Animal check to get it to use a weapon OR wear armor, Separate Feats.

All of that seems well do-able for an animal companion or familiar. You can't expect awesome without some effort, can you? =)

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

FiddlersGreen wrote:

Well, it's still do-able. Like you pointed out:

A: have to succeed on a handle animal check to get anything with the tag "animal" to do ANYTHING that is not one of it's trained tricks
B: Have to give it thumbs AND an int of 3 or higher before you can get it to use anything but it's own weapons
C: Burn a feat the animal has earned AFTER getting thumbs and Int 3+ AND a successful Handle Animal check to get it to use a weapon OR wear armor, Separate Feats.

All of that seems well do-able for an animal companion or familiar. You can't expect awesome without some effort, can you? =)

I don't think I'd require an animal to be permanently anthropomorphized before picking up weapon or armor proficiencies.

I'd run it like the fly skill. You can put ranks in fly without needing a fly speed, so long as you can spend some time each day flying. So, as long as you can spend part of each day at Int 3 and thumby, you can pick up weapon or armor profs.

Seems the fair way to run it, IMO.

Dark Archive

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


I'd run it like the fly skill. You can put ranks in fly without needing a fly speed, so long as you can spend some time each day flying. So, as long as you can spend part of each day at Int 3 and thumby, you can pick up weapon or armor profs.

Seems the fair way to run it, IMO.

There's a new condition, "thumby". I like it. }: )

Shadow Lodge

It would be fun for things like Magic Jar or Marionette Possession. Would it be considered 'willing' to share it's body with you? Strangely the spell doesn't really say anything about the animals attitude towards you after it's been transformed.

In the alchemists case it's called "Torturous Transformation" which makes me think it wouldn't be very happy with you. Making it all the more mysterious.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

0gre wrote:

It would be fun for things like Magic Jar or Marionette Possession. Would it be considered 'willing' to share it's body with you? Strangely the spell doesn't really say anything about the animals attitude towards you after it's been transformed.

In the alchemists case it's called "Torturous Transformation" which makes me think it wouldn't be very happy with you. Making it all the more mysterious.

It'd work perfectly with the new spell familiar melding.

Spoiler:

Familiar Melding
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target your familiar
Duration 1 hour/level or until you return to your body
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes

You project your soul into your familiar, taking over its body while leaving its consciousness intact. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.
While possessing your familiar, you can communicate with it telepathically. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The familiar’s body retains its own Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You may use any abilities the familiar has, including spells and spell-like abilities. You cannot speak unless your familiar has the ability to speak a language. You cannot cast spells with somatic components if your familiar does not have anthropomorphic limbs that can perform the appropriate motions.
As a standard action, you can return to your body as long as it is within range. If your familiar is slain while your soul is in it and your body is within range, your soul returns to your own body, unharmed. If your familiar is out of range when slain, you die. The spell ends when you shift from the familiar to your own body.


0gre wrote:
It would be fun for things like Magic Jar or Marionette Possession. Would it be considered 'willing' to share it's body with you? Strangely the spell doesn't really say anything about the animals attitude towards you after it's been transformed.

At least in fiction, the transformed/"anthroed" animal is usually decidedly ungrateful for the change. I imagine they'd be rather confused at the very least.

Ogre wrote:
In the alchemists case it's called "Torturous Transformation" which makes me think it wouldn't be very happy with you. Making it all the more mysterious.

That's more of a Doctor Moreau thing, I think. Time to bust out the whip and start threatening them with a return to the House of Pain!

Really, while I love the idea of anthropomorphic animals*, this sounds like less of a 'battle' spell and more for flavor. I.e., the classic bit of the mad wizard/scientist making his gang of beastmen out of local animals and using them as flunkies. That said, with an Intelligence of 3, most of them won't be any good as anything other than general labor... but individual GMs and players can always whip up a Heighten Intelligence spell. Hey, use it on your orc and ogre lackeys and watch them outwit those meddlesome adventurers for te first time since, well, ever.

* -- I think the two best products for this would be "Fursona" from Skortched Urf and "Remarkable Races: the Anumus" from Alluria Games, both here in the store.

Dark Archive

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:

Well, it's still do-able. Like you pointed out:

A: have to succeed on a handle animal check to get anything with the tag "animal" to do ANYTHING that is not one of it's trained tricks
B: Have to give it thumbs AND an int of 3 or higher before you can get it to use anything but it's own weapons
C: Burn a feat the animal has earned AFTER getting thumbs and Int 3+ AND a successful Handle Animal check to get it to use a weapon OR wear armor, Separate Feats.

All of that seems well do-able for an animal companion or familiar. You can't expect awesome without some effort, can you? =)

I don't think I'd require an animal to be permanently anthropomorphized before picking up weapon or armor proficiencies.

I'd run it like the fly skill. You can put ranks in fly without needing a fly speed, so long as you can spend some time each day flying. So, as long as you can spend part of each day at Int 3 and thumby, you can pick up weapon or armor profs.

Seems the fair way to run it, IMO.

Unfortunately no, per Raw temporary increases in Int do not grant you extra Skill points, Spells or Tricks unless you maintain them for greater then 24 hours and spells NEVER grant them. period.

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However I am changing my opinion on this spell, I did some research and think it is awesome the way it is. It is by far one of the most effective animal destroying COMBAT spells I've ever seen. It's the perfect save or suck spell for any animal/dinosaur encounter you could run into.

High level druid sends his giant Deinonychus at you ? Touch it and take away 4 attacks a round, all it's special abilities (pounce & scent) and make it provoke an AoO every time it tries to do it's attack routine.

Paladin/Cavalier/Mounted Barbarian coming at you ? touch their mount and watch them fall off the suddenly humanoid animal and lose all the power (Feats, Weapons, divine buffs) they've invested into mounted combat.

Dire Beast (Rhino, Elephant, etc) coming to gore/trample you ? Touch it and take away ALL it's attacks and make it provoke an AoO when it tries to do ANYTHING.

T-Rex coming to chow down on you ? Hit it with this spell to take away it's Swallow, Grab and Powerful Bite then next round hit it with a Reduce Person (it's a humanoid type now) to send it's damage to the crapper. (4D6+22 -> 2D8+10)

This spell becomes a required memorization/scroll/wand til 6th-8th level maybe even longer depending on where you are adventuring.
I think I will keep this on my Witch from now on.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
0gre wrote:

It would be fun for things like Magic Jar or Marionette Possession. Would it be considered 'willing' to share it's body with you? Strangely the spell doesn't really say anything about the animals attitude towards you after it's been transformed.

In the alchemists case it's called "Torturous Transformation" which makes me think it wouldn't be very happy with you. Making it all the more mysterious.

It'd work perfectly with the new spell familiar melding.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ooh, that looks a very fine combo indeed. Two questions:

1) Is Anthropomorphic Animal available to witches?

2) What level is the spell, anyway?

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The spell kinda lets you think of your animal companion as an eidolon.

Shadow Lodge

It is available to witches and druids.

One weird thing though... familiars are not technically animals, they are magical beasts.


Dragonsong wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:

Rex Ready anyone?

(Gratuitous Bonus)

No need to double post Rex hes more than potent enough to only appear once in a thread.

Nah, its just a Rex sighting from a different point in the timestream.

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