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Just when I thought I had hit the cheese mother lode, I realized it's even worse. And it's not the magus that's broken but Borrow Future.
Since it's a 4th level word, it can be combined with other words. It could be cast together with a 7th level and a 5th level word as a 9th level spell or with a 6th level and 4th level word as a 8th level spell.
So, a 20th level sorcerer could cast quite a few spells in a single round.
So, by burning all of his slots of 5th level and higher, a sorcerer 20 would be able to six 7th level spells, six 6th level spells, six 5th level spells, eighteen 4th level spells and eighteen 2nd level spells. This doesn't even take into account bonus spells for a high intelligence.
Probably a bit more impressive than the magus and his meager twenty full attacks. The sorcerer even has thirty move actions to taunt his enemies and party members while they are unable to act.
Synthesist Builds
And here I was thinking I was the only one thinking of little wizened old men who hulk out and murder everything with 50+ strength.
Personally I think Eldritch Heritage is interesting. PArticularly with synthesist builds.
So why don't we talk about the potential of the broodmaster? It seems potentially interesting.
Synthesist BuildsAnd here I was thinking I was the only one thinking of little wizened old men who hulk out and murder everything with 50+ strength.
Personally I think Eldritch Heritage is interesting. PArticularly with synthesist builds.
So why don't we talk about the potential of the broodmaster? It seems potentially interesting.
It's funny, I was just thinking earlier about the highest strength a character could viably generate. At the moment, I reckon a dragon-blooded sorcerer/dragon disciple with eldritch heritage: demonic comes close
+4Str from DD
+6str (inherent) from EH:demonic
+6Str (enhancement) from belt
+6str (morale) from vengeful outrage (spell)
+10(size) from form of the dragon III
Add all that up for a +32 bonus, and NONE of that came from your stat increases from leveling up! 1 item, 2 spells, and the rest is your innate mojo. If you REALLY wanted to min-max it, go with a half-orc/human/half-elf, and you could probably start with 20 Str, and use all your stat increases to str for 25 at level 20. 25+32 = 57 str. We're talking a +23 modifier. O_O
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Wha? *blink blink* *reads the passages again* Oh. Oh! Okay then.
My opinion of the Words of Magic subsystem has just hit an all time low.
That much flexibility with comparable potency to standard spells? This never struck anyone as potentially unbalancing?
The problem isn't Words of Power, just Borrow Future. If all the Words had been tested instead of just the Evocation ones, it would have been caught on earlier.
All Borrow Future needs is an addition that it cannot be used on a target before the end of its next turn.Player's Handbook II had a similar spell, Celerity, but it caused the caster to become dazed till the end of his next round (it was an immediate action with was rather nice, though).
Words of Power have a few advantages compared to magic, blasting is stronger and summons work as standard actions. On the other hand, wordcasters lose a lot of special spells, so I'd say without Borrow Future as written it's balanced.
So as a Thought Experiment I decided to take the broodmaster archetype adn see how many dudes my character can obtain (not counting any extra dudes a cohort might obtain) without casting spells or multiclassing. So far I'm up to a 10 man character. I think I can do more.
So as a Thought Experiment I decided to take the broodmaster archetype adn see how many dudes my character can obtain (not counting any extra dudes a cohort might obtain) without casting spells or multiclassing. So far I'm up to a 10 man character. I think I can do more.
Boost that up to about 173 now. Counting followers.
Also what are you getting out of being a synthesist that a normal summoner couldn't do anyways (and with greater action economy?)
Ridiculously high mental scores without much sacrifice in terms of power. Potential for silly combat expertise based builds. Much less headache in terms of combat (i.e. one character instead of two or 173). Skills that shoot through the stratosphere. You basically become a godlike entity in a lot of ways.
I like to think of it in terms of Shazam or The Hulk. You basically tunr from a mild mannered creature who might be smarter or more charmin than others but with a magic word or simple condition you become something everyone is afraid of.
I thought the same way you did at first until I started looking into its potential.
Boost that up to about 173 now. Counting followers.
Is that including a summoner cohort who has leadership and whose eidolon has leadership and both their cohorts are summoners, etc?
Boost that up to about 173 now. Counting followers.Is that including a summoner cohort who has leadership and whose eidolon has leadership and both their cohorts are summoners, etc?
Only including characters that the Summoner counts personally. If I went completely nuts we could get into the Millions utilizing UMD and bunches of Animate dead spells.
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It's funny, I was just thinking earlier about the highest strength a character could viably generate. At the moment, I reckon a dragon-blooded sorcerer/dragon disciple with eldritch heritage: demonic comes close
+4Str from DD
+6str (inherent) from EH:demonic
+6Str (enhancement) from belt
+6str (morale) from vengeful outrage (spell)
+10(size) from form of the dragon IIIAdd all that up for a +32 bonus, and NONE of that came from your stat increases from leveling up! 1 item, 2 spells, and the rest is your innate mojo. If you REALLY wanted to min-max it, go with a half-orc/human/half-elf, and you could probably start with 20 Str, and use all your stat increases to str for 25 at level 20. 25+32 = 57 str. We're talking a +23 modifier. O_O
May I interest you in a level of alchemist for a +4 alchemical bonus on Str?
So do I understand that with the borrow future trick you're describing, you could move, make 18 full attacks, then teleport away somewhere safe while your 20 rounds of inactivity run out?
From a related thread:
Toppling Spell is probably over the top with magic missile.
Using the Magical Lineage trait and Spell Perfection, you can have a Toppling Dazing Piercing Quickened magic missile + Toppling Dazing Piercing Heightened (+4) magic missile. Those use 5th level spell slots. . .
Each magic missile hit causes a save for dazing and a trip attempt -- and the SR check adds Caster Level + 13 (assuming Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration)
Blaster Battlefield Control? (:
May I interest you in a level of alchemist for a +4 alchemical bonus on Str?It's funny, I was just thinking earlier about the highest strength a character could viably generate. At the moment, I reckon a dragon-blooded sorcerer/dragon disciple with eldritch heritage: demonic comes close
+4Str from DD
+6str (inherent) from EH:demonic
+6Str (enhancement) from belt
+6str (morale) from vengeful outrage (spell)
+10(size) from form of the dragon IIIAdd all that up for a +32 bonus, and NONE of that came from your stat increases from leveling up! 1 item, 2 spells, and the rest is your innate mojo. If you REALLY wanted to min-max it, go with a half-orc/human/half-elf, and you could probably start with 20 Str, and use all your stat increases to str for 25 at level 20. 25+32 = 57 str. We're talking a +23 modifier. O_O
ROFL you most certainly can!
Hmm...although in terms of practicality, I can see an issue since I generally 2 pre-combat buffs as the limit for combat effectiveness. Vengeful outrage and form of the dragon are already pretty high level spells and can't be quickened easily.
BUT as far as records go, yes oh yes oh yes! LOL so we're now talking up to +36 to your base str. Taking the str 25 character at level 20, we have a potential for 61 str, with a +25 str modifier! Rawr!!!
At least psions don't have to hear complaints about Novaing any more...
+1 post bonus. This bonus stacks with others made to the quoted post.
From a related thread:
Toppling Spell is probably over the top with magic missile.
Using the Magical Lineage trait and Spell Perfection, you can have a Toppling Dazing Piercing Quickened magic missile + Toppling Dazing Piercing Heightened (+4) magic missile. Those use 5th level spell slots. . .
Each magic missile hit causes a save for dazing and a trip attempt -- and the SR check adds Caster Level + 13 (assuming Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration)
Blaster Battlefield Control? (:
I think this is Pathfinder's version of explosive spell which would knock you prone, IIRC. I really wish this version only allowed you to be tripped/knocked prone on a failed save.
Of course the trip check likely to fail anyway unless you run an all humanoid campaign, and even then I don't see it working a whole lot. I think the likelihood of the trip succeeding should be looked at before we cry foul, like I admittedly almost did.
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At least psions don't have to hear complaints about Novaing any more...The irony is that even certain Paizo staff members (James Jacobs if I remember correctly) declared that they would not use the XPH rules because of nova potential.
Good thing we've got Psionics Unleashed to keep the psionic classes on par, huh?
One thing about Synthesist builds that some are overlooking, I think, is this: You use your Eidolon's strength, and not your own when they are out. That means that level bonuses for your character will not count when the eidolon is out unless they are put into the mental stats. The eidolon gets boosts like a normal eidolon would, but bonuses like from the abyssal bloodline would only count if the eidolon itself took the feats, not the summoner. And if I remember correctly, the synthesist's eidolon can't do feats or skills on their own.
That and being huge size won't help when you have to go into the castle. Or the tomb. Or the cave. Or the tavern. Or the basement. Or the wagon. Or the apparatus of the crab.
Edit: Also manuals may not work for it, being that the eidolon itself, being completely controlled by the summoner would not get the benefit from reading the manuals, but the summoner would. And that would mean that when he "transformed" he wouldn't get the benefit.
But as far as RAW, one needs to be careful about this stuff.
That and being huge size won't help when you have to go into the castle. Or the tomb. Or the cave. Or the tavern. Or the basement. Or the wagon. Or the apparatus of the crab.
The same can be said of all summoners. Size is one of those things that many summoners get on their eidolons asap.
A 2nd level Mind Chemist and 6th level synthesist elf can have a +45 to all knowledge checks. Don't know if its broken or not, but it is kinda funny.
A 2nd level Mind Chemist and 6th level synthesist elf can have a +45 to all knowledge checks. Don't know if its broken or not, but it is kinda funny.
You can toss in a level of Lore Oracle for an extra +20 circumstance bonus a few times per day (Focused Trance).
nothing, as your GM notes your ultracombo and applies brooch of shielding or shield spells to his monsters from then on. ::sadface::
(Greater) Dispel Magic?
Of course the trip check likely to fail anyway unless you run an all humanoid campaign, and even then I don't see it working a whole lot. I think the likelihood of the trip succeeding should be looked at before we cry foul, like I admittedly almost did.
The likelihood of a trip is one thing. It might be a 10% chance against a certain monster at a level?
But it happens twice per round Quickened. And there are 2 saves for dazing. And there are a number of ways to boost your caster level. And this hits 5 monsters. Also, I can still apply the feats and abilities to other spells.
I think the point here is that magic missile is starting to look too good when combined with other abilities. Maybe there needs to be more magic missile hate. . .
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Okay, after rereading the Words of Power, the sorcerer issue isn't as bad as I thought. All words in a wordspell affect the same target, so it should be difficult to use to damage your opponents.
The magus issue still stands, though.
Also, a sorcerer or wizard could use the word to grant the whole party a full round action as a 7th level word or higher when he also buffs the party with other words.
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Summons might work, depending on how the selected target word works. If I remember from the playtest, though, the full round action would be granted to the summon.
Buffing works too, but the spellcaster would still lose his next round.
Using it to grant your party extra actions, on the other hand, would be rather powerful, most enemies will have a hard time surviving ten full-round actions of a whole party.