[Ultimate Magic] Blood Crow Strike


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

19 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So this spell is confusing.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Your unarmed strikes release blasts of energy in the form of bolts of fire or glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target. You can make unarmed strike or flurry of blows attacks against the target as if it were in your threatened area; each successful attack deals damage as if you had hit it with your unarmed strike, except half the damage is fire and half is negative energy (this negative energy does not heal undead). For example, if you are a 14th-level monk, you can use a flurry of blows to attack five times, creating one energy crow for each successful attack against the target, and dealing 2d6 points of damage (plus appropriate unarmed strike modifiers) with each crow.

The casting time is 1 round and the duration is instantaneous. How does this spell play out? You cast it one turn and the next turn you can flurry once with this spell afterwards? Can you make the unarmed attacks as part of the casting?

What happens if you cast it on an ally?

Dark Archive

Nothing? Nobody?


RAI: Probably make a full attack as part of casting the spell, with each attack that would have landed shooting off a crow-missile that does the damage.

RAW: The spell simply doesn't work. Even if the wording was changes to say something like "as part of casting this spell you may take a full attack option" it would still be weird in that it has a 1 round casting time, which means it would technically start on your turn and people could interrupt it before it ever goes off. Then it would technically happen at the start of your NEXT turn....which is just weird to me for whatever reason. I mean, I can conceptualize it, but it seems a very strange spell....especially considering it doesn't work without DM translation and intervention of some kind.

Edit: The ally thing is even stranger. I can conceptualize the attacks as PART of the round of casting the spell. I can't figure out how it would work on another creature. Do they have to spend a full attack that turn as well, but have it do nothing for the moment, until you're done casting the spell? Do they spend it after? It doesn't seem they can with a duration of instantaneous....I dunno. My brain hurts.


I'm going to guess that the casting time should be a "full round" action rather than a "1 round" action. I think the spell implicitly says you get the full attack as part of casting the spell, but making it explicit would have been better, IMO.

I don't see any special mention of allies here. If cast on an ally, it would do the same thing that casting scorching ray does to an ally: it damages them. Since it doesn't even heal undead, I can't think of any good reason to cast it on an ally.

Dark Archive

Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious. Glad to know the spell is retarded not me.


YuenglingDragon wrote:
Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious. Glad to know the spell is retarded not me.

I understand the casting time just fine. One round casting time? It's effects take place at the beginning of your next turn, just like a summon spell. You cast this round. That's it for that round. At the beginning of your next turn you may begin making your unarmed attacks or flurry of blows.

What I don't get is the instantaneous duration. Instantaneous effects are permanent aren't they? That should be rounds/level or something.


Foghammer wrote:
YuenglingDragon wrote:
Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious. Glad to know the spell is retarded not me.

I understand the casting time just fine. One round casting time? It's effects take place at the beginning of your next turn, just like a summon spell. You cast this round. That's it for that round. At the beginning of your next turn you may begin making your unarmed attacks or flurry of blows.

What I don't get is the instantaneous duration. Instantaneous effects are permanent aren't they? That should be rounds/level or something.

Then people would argue that the damage goes away when the duration runs out. :rolleyes:


So, wait, it's two full actions for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry?

:/


Gruuuu wrote:

So, wait, it's two full actions for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry?

:/

By my reading, it's one "1 round" action for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry, and then you get your usual round of actions.

For example:

Round 1

  • monk/cleric goes through fancy martial dance to summon the evil blood crows.
  • everybody else ignores the monk/cleric, 'cause he's a silly multiclassed caster
Round 2
  • Just before the monk/cleric's round, he lets fire the crows of hell (the spell resolves)
  • The monk now gets his usual full Round 2 turn
  • All the other characters do their thing

Now, I think the spell should be a full round action to cast (so it resolves during Round 1, and not Round 2), but that's how it reads to me as-is.

Edit: Yes, I know a monk can pick up evil blood crows as a ki power with the quigong archetype.


Gruuuu wrote:

So, wait, it's two full actions for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry?

:/

Well, depending on how the duration is supposed to work (still don't get the instantaneous thing) then it would last longer than two full actions. You should get to keep making the ranged unarmed attacks for a few rounds. Plenty useful I would think.


Distant Scholar wrote:


By my reading, it's one "1 round" action for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry, and then you get your usual round of actions.

For example:

Round 1

  • monk/cleric goes through fancy martial dance to summon the evil blood crows.
  • everybody else ignores the monk/cleric, 'cause he's a silly multiclassed caster
Round 2
  • Just before the monk/cleric's round, he lets fire the crows of hell (the spell resolves)
  • The monk now gets his usual full Round 2 turn
  • All the other characters do their thing

Now, I think the spell should be a full round action to cast (so it resolves during Round 1, and not Round 2), but that's how it reads to me as-is.

Edit: Yes, I know a monk can pick up evil blood crows as a ki power with the quigong archetype.

I think the part that's screwing up the interpretation is the part where it says "...glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target..." I'm pretty sure that just means WHEN you make the attack, and denoting the fact that there's no delay between the attack and the impact of the crow. Like firing an arrow from a bow, if the attack hits, its effects are instantaneous; you don't wait for it to travel.

Just a minor problem with wording. We'll see with the errata, though. Til then, I'm house ruling it to have a duration of 1 round/level, starting with the round following the casting (since it doesn't complete until your next turn anyway).


Also, "successful attack"?
Ranged Touch?

I'm probably one of the few current characters that is actually interested in this, I'm one of those silly multi-class casters! (Zen Archer Monk/Inquisitor)

Though I do see more people taking advantage of the Quinggong Monk options once UM is released.


Hitting the FAQ button may help here :)


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I agree with Distant Scholar. It's sort of like a Scorching Ray spell, except: (a) it takes one round to cast instead of a standard action, (b) the number of "rays" is determined by your monk flurry of blows ability, and (c) you determine if they hit by making melee attacks, not ranged touch attacks.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

Foghammer wrote:
Gruuuu wrote:

So, wait, it's two full actions for a half fire/half negative damage ranged flurry?

:/

Well, depending on how the duration is supposed to work (still don't get the instantaneous thing) then it would last longer than two full actions. You should get to keep making the ranged unarmed attacks for a few rounds. Plenty useful I would think.

This spell has an instantaneous duration, just as scorching ray and magic missile do.

The duration definitions are in the Magic section of the PRD.

So, the "effect" of the spell (multiple "bolts of fire or glowing red crows" flying to attack the target) is instantaneous, in that they attack and do damage instantly and then disappear. The damage that they do is permanent.

By giving the spell a duration, you have to decide whether you want to allow the caster to "hold the charge" and release the crows at some time later or you have to allow the crows to linger and do damage each round.

Oh, and I agree with Hogarths interpretation of the spell's adjudication.


hogarth wrote:
I agree with Distant Scholar. It's sort of like a Scorching Ray spell, except: (a) it takes one round to cast instead of a standard action, (b) the number of "rays" is determined by your monk flurry of blows ability, and (c) you determine if they hit by making melee attacks, not ranged touch attacks.

By making melee attacks, or attacks relevant to the flurry attacks? (Zen Archers use ranged!)


Gruuuu wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I agree with Distant Scholar. It's sort of like a Scorching Ray spell, except: (a) it takes one round to cast instead of a standard action, (b) the number of "rays" is determined by your monk flurry of blows ability, and (c) you determine if they hit by making melee attacks, not ranged touch attacks.
By making melee attacks, or attacks relevant to the flurry attacks? (Zen Archers use ranged!)

Good question. :-)

Liberty's Edge

Gruuuu wrote:


By making melee attacks, or attacks relevant to the flurry attacks? (Zen Archers use ranged!)

Both (unarmed strikes or flurry of blows).


YuenglingDragon wrote:

So this spell is confusing.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Your unarmed strikes release blasts of energy in the form of bolts of fire or glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target. You can make unarmed strike or flurry of blows attacks against the target as if it were in your threatened area; each successful attack deals damage as if you had hit it with your unarmed strike, except half the damage is fire and half is negative energy (this negative energy does not heal undead). For example, if you are a 14th-level monk, you can use a flurry of blows to attack five times, creating one energy crow for each successful attack against the target, and dealing 2d6 points of damage (plus appropriate unarmed strike modifiers) with each crow.

The casting time is 1 round and the duration is instantaneous. How does this spell play out? You cast it one turn and the next turn you can flurry once with this spell afterwards? Can you make the unarmed attacks as part of the casting?

What happens if you cast it on an ally?

Here's the problem with BCS: It shouldn't have been a spell. It seems to me that it was done that way simply so that it fits into the structure that Paizo created for the Quinggong monk abilities (swapping out monk powers for spells).

I agree with the previous posters reading of it, that you take a full attack action while casting the spell, and it simply lets you make a Flurry at range that does energy damage (aka turns you into Goku for a round). What it certainly DOESN'T do is do that for a duration.

On another note, I'd like to bring up the point that it says you can make an unarmed attack or flurry as if you threatened the target. My reading of that is that anything you can apply to an unarmed strike (vital strike, stunning fist, energy fist, power attack, critical [blank], etc.) should also work with this spell, and that the fireballs/evil lazer crows would each do your full unarmed strike damage(including any str bonuses).


YuenglingDragon wrote:

So this spell is confusing.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Your unarmed strikes release blasts of energy in the form of bolts of fire or glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target. You can make unarmed strike or flurry of blows attacks against the target as if it were in your threatened area; each successful attack deals damage as if you had hit it with your unarmed strike, except half the damage is fire and half is negative energy (this negative energy does not heal undead). For example, if you are a 14th-level monk, you can use a flurry of blows to attack five times, creating one energy crow for each successful attack against the target, and dealing 2d6 points of damage (plus appropriate unarmed strike modifiers) with each crow.

The casting time is 1 round and the duration is instantaneous. How does this spell play out? You cast it one turn and the next turn you can flurry once with this spell afterwards? Can you make the unarmed attacks as part of the casting?

What happens if you cast it on an ally?

The spell needs to be cleaned up like Terrible Remorse, Cold Ice Strike, Caustic Eruption, instantaneous duration for combination Word Spells (at least for DMs that are easily steam-rolled) and a few others that are out of whack. I think they will be quite a bit of eratta for the Ultimate Magic.


Hmm, as a GM I have ran into this very problem lately, where one of my players (full cleric) decided to throw a Blood Crow Strike.

What strikes me about the spell description is that first of all the target of the spell is a single creature. And I believe that this is the target as revered to in the description. So the caster chooses a single target that is "marked" as the target of the blood crows (magical projectiles). And spell resistance applies once in order to prevent being marked. So you (the caster) cannot cast this on your allies (unless you want to attack them). Then for god knows how long (because the duration is instantaneous, which is really the weird part) you can make unarmed/flurry attacks against this marked target as if it was in threat range. Then it is very clear that when you deal damage with such an attack, the damage is half negative, half fire.

The description says nothing about allowing extra attacks either during casting or after the spell completes (after 1 round).

So as I read it, it is a 1 round action spent to gain the option of doing attacks at range (although it is a melee attack, see threat range) and changing the damage type. So all in all, not a great lvl 4 spell probably, but one that definitely needs some clarification.


On an additional note, if you actually get a full attack action as part of casting this spell:
How can you perform somatic components when you are attacking with unarmed strikes or a flurry of blows at the same time?


Take note that, when you do a search on the forums, it defaults to "relevance" sorting which can bring up old threads that probably don't have up-do-date information (this thread is from almost 5 years ago).

As for the matter at hand, the spell is written a bit poorly, similar to how the Myrmidarch's Ranged Spellstrike didn't provide for making multiple shots to deliver multiple rays without an errata. But I think, maybe, the intent of the spell is that, immediately after the 1 round casting, you then can spend an action to make one or more Unarmed Strikes. To illustrate, in Round 1, you spend a full-round action to begin casting. You are casting until right before your turn in Round 2 (so the spell can be interrupted if you take damage). Then, in Round 2, you must make your attacks (spending action economy as normal). It's just written in a cumbersome manner.


This spell seems pretty damn straight forward. You cast it, and you shoot crows at people. The number of crows and how much damage they determine is based on your unarmed strike, but otherwise the spell functions like scorching ray and I haven't seen anyone argue you have to wait a round to shoot your rays.


swoosh wrote:
This spell seems pretty damn straight forward. You cast it, and you shoot crows at people. The number of crows and how much damage they determine is based on your unarmed strike, but otherwise the spell functions like scorching ray and I haven't seen anyone argue you have to wait a round to shoot your rays.

Scorching Ray doesn't have a casting time of 1 round. BCS, however, does. That's different from just a full-round cast time. Full-round cast time means you spend a full-round action, but the spell goes off the same round. 1 round cast time means you spend a full-round action, but it doesn't complete in that same turn; you must continue the casting until immediately before your next turn and then the effect of the spell activates. No where in the spell does it say that it grants attacks as part of casting; just that you may make unarmed strikes against the target as if they were in your threatened area. That is, fundamentally, different from Scorching Ray and no valid comparison can be made.


I don't see how it could be read as anything other than

Round 1: Cast BCS
Round 2: Full attack or Flurry of blows with the increased range and fire/negative energy damage.


Sah wrote:

I don't see how it could be read as anything other than

Round 1: Cast BCS
Round 2: Full attack or Flurry of blows with the increased range and fire/negative energy damage.

The spell is instantaneous. The attacks "come and go the instant the spell is cast." When the spell resolves, before your second turn, you get attacks, then you get your second turn. That's how instantaneous spells work.


PRD/Blood Crow Strike wrote:
Your unarmed strikes release blasts of energy in the form of bolts of fire or glowing red crows, which fly instantaneously to strike your target. You can make unarmed strike or flurry of blows attacks against the target as if it were in your threatened area; each successful attack deals damage as if you had hit it with your unarmed strike, except half the damage is fire and half is negative energy (this negative energy does not heal undead). For example, if you are a 14th-level monk, you can use a flurry of blows to attack five times, creating one energy crow for each successful attack against the target, and dealing 2d6 points of damage (plus appropriate unarmed strike modifiers) with each crow.

Show me where, in the spell description, it states you make the attacks as part of casting the spell. It even states in the example you use Flurry of Blows (a full-round action). If you run it strictly as written, the spell has no effect; it instantly comes into effect just before your second turn, but you can't take any actions at that moment to make the attack. Then the spell effect disappears, and your second turn begins. Moreover, even if you did make the attacks part of casting the spell, then you get a full-attack instantly just before your second turn... and then immediately get another full-round worth of actions? It should be changed in one of two ways to make its intent clear:

1) Make the attacks part of casting and change the casting time to Full-Round.
2) State, explicitly, that the spell allows you to benefit from its effect on your next turn with your normal action economy.

Sczarni

Been researching this for my Qinggong monk for a while now. I just realized we are reading this spell wrong.

The spell simply allows the caster to FoB/Unarmed strike 1 target within the spell's range.

i.e. a monk casts it for 1 round. The next round, BCS allows the monk to hit the target "as if it were in your threatened area".

Duration is "instantaneous" because once you have FoB, the spell ends.
All the stuffs about flying crows, etc. just create confusions to the reader.

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