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Epic Level Handbook now, please


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Tacticslion wrote:

... but why?

(Actually, if you wish to articulate that, please do so in this thread to avoid further derail. I'd like to know your thoughts, though.)

I was trying to be polite in say that I hope we never see a Paizo made Pathfinder Psionics book.

P.S. The why is self evident in my original statement. It is too much like magic. Anything you can do with any psionic system could easily be done for magic and not muck up the entire game.

Shadow Lodge

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

... but why?

(Actually, if you wish to articulate that, please do so in this thread to avoid further derail. I'd like to know your thoughts, though.)
I was trying to be polite in say that I hope we never see a Paizo made Pathfinder Psionics book.

Golarion canon has Vudra and mentions psychic powers. It's coming, it's just a matter of when. Just like the mythic stuff was.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Class Decks, Modules Subscriber
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
P.S. The why is self evident in my original statement. It is too much like magic. Anything you can do with any psionic system could easily be done for magic and not muck up the entire game.

Muck up how?

(Hello Captain, didn't recognize you at first. Did you change your hair? :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
P.S. The why is self evident in my original statement. It is too much like magic. Anything you can do with any psionic system could easily be done for magic and not muck up the entire game.

Muck up how?

(Hello Captain, didn't recognize you at first. Did you change your hair? :)

Anytime you add on a new system, like 2nd ed. Psionics, words of power, or the piecemail armor, you chance mucking the game up drastically if you include those rules.

(Yeah I searched for a male half-elf for my pic, and white hair to boot so I lucked out).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sure, there's always that chance. But really, 3.5 (and from what I'm seeing Dreamscarred's PF) proved that it didn't have to be that way (at least no more than the basic stuff was already).

ANYWAY. It looks like, while not really levels 21+, the Mythic stuff is, indeed, what Paizo is presenting for that "next step" kind of feel.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paizo has said that it is unlikely that they will ever do a Psionics book, as they both really like the Dreamscape one, and also do not want to steal from their 3rd party ally. It could still happen, but is not likely.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Beckett wrote:

Paizo has said that it is unlikely that they will ever do a Psionics book, as they both really like the Dreamscape one, and also do not want to steal from their 3rd party ally. It could still happen, but is not likely.

I think Paizo has said they are unlikely to do a power point psionics system, I wouldn't be surprised to see psychic magic at some point.


yep

They have pretty much confirmed psychic powers exist in Golarion. So we will definitely get some sort of core book on the subject, just probably using a different system (see the upcoming Mythic rules versus the old Epic level rules)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Especially (to derail this thread further) since James has said more than once that he's a big fan of that idea (and has repeatedly mentioned "psychic magic" in the "psionics in Pathfinder" thread.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Tales Subscriber
Beckett wrote:

Paizo has said that it is unlikely that they will ever do a Psionics book, as they both really like the Dreamscape one, and also do not want to steal from their 3rd party ally. It could still happen, but is not likely.

Are you sure? I've seen these positions advanced, but not by paizo staff (certainly not the second, anyhow).

I think licensing a 3PP to produce some clearly delineated subsystem and then directly competing with that might be considered "stealing from an ally", but I don't see them as giving any kind of warrant that they won't produce some rules content just because someone else has done it first.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Well, I'll put myself in the "cautiously optimistic" camp about these rules.

Since I want to use them for above-20 play, I guess I'll have to wait and see how they handle.


OK, I tried to catch up on this thread, but really... there's already over 700 posts. If I go over some already-trod ground, mea culpa.

As for psionics: They were interesting in first edition. They gave the possibility of a character having a sort of quirky extra power that set him apart from other characters, especially if he was fighter/subclass. Second edition, IMHO, was abominable, and third edition is just a different way to be a sorcerer. I would not be in favor of more of this from Paizo.

--HOWEVER--

Green Ronin did "The Psychic's Handbook" that was FANTASTIC. It was really derivative of an earlier GURPS title, but I really liked the way that psychic (not psionic) powers were feat- and skill-based, making them totally different from spells. And they more or less followed the theme of "real-world" parapsychology. I would LOVE to see a handbook to "officially" incorporate this into Pathfinder. (Cthulhu D20 did something similar, but much less in-depth).

For Epic/Mythic play: Getting content would be quite easy. Any already-published AP can have a sequel written. Hell, I thought that was what "Shattered Stars" was going to be: a sequel to "Runelords". I don't know if I like the idea of High/Mythic/Cosmic play... it feels too 4E. I just don't want to have to retire a favorite character because "his brain is full". Saying "the math breaks down" after 20th level is a circular argument; the math breaks down because it's designed to break down. Besides, if I want a math-fest, I'll go play 4E. Pathfinder is my preferred extension of 3E because it focused more on the characters than the table-top miniatures' battle-stats, or the bane of my role-playing experience* (I am a role-player, not a war-gamer)... although (sadly) that seems to be changing.

*GAME BALANCE... All character individuality must be sacrificed upon its altar! No character can be more powerful than another at any level. (So, why do we even bother with ability scores, then?)


Sarak Valainguard wrote:

OK, I tried to catch up on this thread, but really... there's already over 700 posts. If I go over some already-trod ground, mea culpa.

As for psionics: They were interesting in first edition. They gave the possibility of a character having a sort of quirky extra power that set him apart from other characters, especially if he was fighter/subclass. Second edition, IMHO, was abominable, and third edition is just a different way to be a sorcerer. I would not be in favor of more of this from Paizo.

--HOWEVER--

Green Ronin did "The Psychic's Handbook" that was FANTASTIC. It was really derivative of an earlier GURPS title, but I really liked the way that psychic (not psionic) powers were feat- and skill-based, making them totally different from spells. And they more or less followed the theme of "real-world" parapsychology. I would LOVE to see a handbook to "officially" incorporate this into Pathfinder. (Cthulhu D20 did something similar, but much less in-depth).

i can imagine a subsystem like Stars Wars d20 force function like psionics powers... force points as a psionics points
that would be the most perfect psionic ever


sorry for the spam

for the psioniscs i really love using the sistem from Stars Wars´s Jedis rules

they act as a truly psionics to me.


I like mythic, but I'd definitely like a post-lvl 20 book. I don't really see mythic as being a replacement for that in my campaign.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
SirUrza wrote:
Estrosiath wrote:
Could we please have, as the next hardcover book, the epic level one? I do not really see anything left to do apart from that (and psionics, but I would say more people will use the Epic level rules than the psionic ones, especially since mind flayers are not included in PFRG).

While I agree with you, I would use the Epic rules before I personally use psionic rules, there's a problem with releasing them first.

Epic rules for psionics.

Do we include them with the rules for epic psiconics with the psionics and risk them not getting proper playtest attention? (1-20 is waaaaaaaaaay more important to playtest!)

Or not include them and release an Epic rule 2 book? I certainly don't want 2 books... especially if it means only psionics are in the book.

Epic rules are as niche as psionics.. it might be forever before we get a book 2, if ever if sales aren't good.

Also, what do you include in the Epic level rules? We have the core classes and all the extra base classes now. If Paizo releases more base classes after the Epic book comes out, then you now need more epic books.

No, the epic book can't come out until Paizo is finished releasing base classes. Which I REALLY hope happens when the Psionics book comes out.

I would say the stage is set with the starstone in Absolom, where mere mortals can ascend to divinity and have done so. That smells epic level to me. It's just a matter of tackling it as a DM At this point. And paizo publishe Moonscar which is high end gaming that is well done. The raw material is there just start painting the picture for your players.


I signed up just to post on this topic. We need Epic please and planar handbook. either of these books will be a good place for all the Demon Princes, Devil Lords and Celestial Paragons too.


An epic book would be amazing. I would definitely buy it.


Somebody took the time to actually write an Epic Level Handbook doesn't have all the new classes though. I was actually looking for one so I can determine feats but it seems the closest we can get is Mythic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CuttinCurt wrote:

I would also tend to disagree with the 25% number. I have no facts on this, but then again, neither did cartigan.

The AP's are the main product after the Core RB and the other Core rule books. So I would say that maybe 25% only play to level 6, but then again, that seems high to me a well.

CC

I think it's a fair bet that most campaigns pretty much shutdown in the 8-15th level range, most of that number ending around 12th.

GameMastering high level games is not the comparative cakewalk of running low to mid-level. And it gets asymptotic each two levels past 10.


LazarX wrote:
CuttinCurt wrote:

I would also tend to disagree with the 25% number. I have no facts on this, but then again, neither did cartigan.

The AP's are the main product after the Core RB and the other Core rule books. So I would say that maybe 25% only play to level 6, but then again, that seems high to me a well.

CC

I think it's a fair bet that most campaigns pretty much shutdown in the 8-15th level range, most of that number ending around 12th.

GameMastering high level games is not the comparative cakewalk of running low to mid-level. And it gets asymptotic each two levels past 10.

I'm pretty sure that with more experienced authors and a campaign centered around rescuing Aroden or reviving good/neutral dead gods and fixing Golarion from the World Wound issues or even helping the Elven people fix their hidden problem and stuff like that could very well be a perfect setting for higher level play. Wizard's of the Coast allows for higher level play but Paizo doesn't yet.

What's the point of publishing higher level spells if one can never use them? What's the point of publishing level 20 class statistics if one can never get to that point?

Does the will of the ten see any experienced and seasoned adventurers as a threat? I'm sure even the Masked living God could even have a play or even better, Kaiju walking Godzillas!

It just takes good writing and not something silly. Also tactics.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is my single-most disappointing thing about Pathfinder - a lack of Pathfinder-specific epic rules.

However, from this thread and others - I know there aren't enough other people who feel the same way for it to make a difference to Paizo. :)


DaveMage, I've met plenty of people who would like to play higher up through many different Organized Play groups. However, very few are willing to stand up for that belief feeling like they will fail. I'm one of few who have proven that I can stand up to this. There needs to be a voice, some petition, and some much better writing for scenarios to make it work.

There is even another thread about lvl 12+ play so there is interest it's just getting to that point.

The Exchange

Estrosiath wrote:

So.

Now we have the Core Rulebook, 2 Bestiaries, the APG as well as Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. And after, we will see a "beginners' set" (not needed IMO, but I suppose it's a good commercial move).

Could we please have, as the next hardcover book, the epic level one? I do not really see anything left to do apart from that (and psionics, but I would say more people will use the Epic level rules than the psionic ones, especially since mind flayers are not included in PFRG).

I know some people prefer low level options. But nowadays, you have a ton of them, yet absolutely nothing about epic level adventures. I do not think it is too much to ask (and pay for), especially when you see that answers about this from official posters started very early on, and yet we still have heard nothing concrete about it.

Do we really need more classes very few people will ever use (cue the Gunslinger)? I do not mean to insult the good people of Paizo, since they have done such an amazing job most of the time, but I have to admit that one truly had me boggled. From all my years of playing RPGs, I have seen precious few people ever wanting to use guns in a fantasy setting, and many, many more being virulently opposed to their existence, much less to their use.

Yes, some people will tell me "It is an option, do not use it if you do not like it!". But I think those people are also familiar with this strange affliction: feeling compelled to use official content, regardless of contempt.

I know I may sound somewhat childish, or even whiny, but this has been a pet peeve of mine ever since the absolutely abysmal ELH Wizard published and then promptly forgot about. Probably one of the worst products ever published, with extremely little thought and effort put into. Which is why I have such high expectations for its replacement.

Thank you for your time.

PS: I have to admit I really want to see Tar-Baphon statted.

SPOILER POTENTIAL RESPONSE - DO NOT READ ON IF YOU WANT TO KEEP THIS INFO FROM YOUR MIND:)

I didn't get to read through the 773 responses on this one to see what was said, but I do know Tar Baphon is suggested to be 20th Level Necromancer/10th Tier Archmage (Mythic Adventures). So, knowing this, he is pretty much invincible. That said, I know that the Shield of Aroden hurt him before and that some players and GMs believe that part of those shards are still in him.

On that thread, some believe his soul in now trapped in a piece as his reliquary and that he can be destroyed if this is. How you destroy the relic of a living god now deceased is a whole other can of worms. No pun intended.

That said, I came up with what I think his stats will be using HeroLabs and the Mythic Adventures. If you would like my take, email me (ricmoh43@yahoo.com). I am running my players against him in the near future.


Well actually they do have his stats, page 62-63 of Mythic Realms :-)

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