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A final word on kilts?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion


Perhaps my search-fu is just weak today, but after spending two hours or more looking I can't seem to find a final word on kilts in PFS.

Looking at the additional resources, "everything" in the Adventurer's Armory is legal. The armored kilt is "in" the AA, though it requires a stat block from the now-outmoded campaign setting. The resources entry for the outmoded campaign setting says "no kilt," but if, the intent were to allow only the updated AA version, the wording is consistent with that.

I've found people saying "it is legal," as well as people saying "it's not legal."

Could I get a developer/PFS organizer to post a final word here, and then perhaps update the additional resources to make it clear so that people don't have to search for hours figuring out what was intended? For me personally I'm fine with a link to developer post, but it'd be AWESOME if the additional resources page clarified it.


I think you want this thread.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderS ociety/general/armoredKilt

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

Bottom line - no legal source has stats on the armoured kilt, as the campaign setting is no longer a legal source. And as you stated, the section of Adventurer's Armory in question is only updating the prior illegal material (kilt was always verboten).


K Neil Shackleton wrote:
(kilt was always verboten).

I'll share the confusion of one of the posters in the thread IronWolf linked - why does Joshua Frost (then-master of PFS) have a post still extent about the proper way to handle enchantment of a kilt? Edit: Mark Moreland also has a 2011 post in one thread saying "armored kilt has been illegal from day one," seemingly contradicting his 2009 post where he replied on how it can't be combined with bracers of armor (in a thread titled "Armoured kilt and organized play?").

I'm perfectly happy with the kilt being illegal, but I would really, really like the resources page to be updated with "note that items merely updated by the AA are not legal for play" or some similar language. Or even just "all items in the AA (excluding kilts)..."

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco aka Azmyth

Quote:
why does Joshua Frost (then-master of PFS) have a post still extent about the proper way to handle enchantment of a kilt

'Cause he made a boo-boo.


Michael Azzolino wrote:
Quote:
why does Joshua Frost (then-master of PFS) have a post still extent about the proper way to handle enchantment of a kilt
'Cause he made a boo-boo.

Awesome. I appreciate you Venture-Captains, both for your presence on the board and the work you do.

Still (I'm looking at you, Hyrum), would it be possible to clarify the additional resources page - perhaps with a simple sentence like ""Converted" equipment on page 18 is not legal for society play."?

Qadira **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
kikanaide wrote:
Michael Azzolino wrote:
Quote:
why does Joshua Frost (then-master of PFS) have a post still extent about the proper way to handle enchantment of a kilt
'Cause he made a boo-boo.

Awesome. I appreciate you Venture-Captains, both for your presence on the board and the work you do.

Still (I'm looking at you, Hyrum), would it be possible to clarify the additional resources page - perhaps with a simple sentence like ""Converted" equipment on page 18 is not legal for society play."?

That would probably create more confusion than it's worth, since a lot of the things on that page HAVE been reprinted in other legal sources with stats and are still legal. I'd just say they should call out the kilt as not legal?


teribithia9 wrote:
That would probably create more confusion than it's worth, since a lot of the things on that page HAVE been reprinted in other legal sources with stats and are still legal. I'd just say they should call out the kilt as not legal?

This would also be fine. I've just seen a lot of fairly convincing text like "Armored kilt from campaign source wasn't legal because source was 3.5, armored kilt as updated in AA is legal now." I judge about as often as I play, and I'd really, really like to see the text clarified by Hyrum so I can just point to it and say "there's no excuse."


I need to check with Mark about this and Mark is out of the office until next week, at which point I'll be out of the office until the following week.

We'll get an answer to this, but it'll take a couple of weeks. :)

Hyrum.


Hyrum Savage wrote:

I need to check with Mark about this and Mark is out of the office until next week, at which point I'll be out of the office until the following week.

We'll get an answer to this, but it'll take a couple of weeks. :)

Hyrum.

Thank you, Hyrum! Edit: I really appreciate you letting me know about the timing issues now rather than waiting two weeks.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kikanaide wrote:
Perhaps my search-fu is just weak today, but after spending two hours or more looking I can't seem to find a final word on kilts in PFS.

Depends who else is at your table, but I'd suggest sitting with your legs closer together.


Hyrum Savage wrote:

I need to check with Mark about this and Mark is out of the office until next week, at which point I'll be out of the office until the following week.

We'll get an answer to this, but it'll take a couple of weeks. :)

Hyrum.

Hey Hyrum, Mark, now that you're both back, when you get a chance...


Hyrum Savage wrote:

I need to check with Mark about this and Mark is out of the office until next week, at which point I'll be out of the office until the following week.

We'll get an answer to this, but it'll take a couple of weeks. :)

Hyrum.

Still hoping...

Paizo Employee ** Developer

This issue is on my to-do list after PaizoCon is over. The list is rather long, but one line specifically says "armored kilt clarification". What that will be or where it will appear has not yet been determined, but rest assured, I'm on it.


Mark Moreland wrote:
This issue is on my to-do list after PaizoCon is over. The list is rather long, but one line specifically says "armored kilt clarification". What that will be or where it will appear has not yet been determined, but rest assured, I'm on it.

Excellent! Thank you guys, again, for having a presence in your forums.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
This issue is on my to-do list after PaizoCon is over. The list is rather long, but one line specifically says "armored kilt clarification". What that will be or where it will appear has not yet been determined, but rest assured, I'm on it.

Old post Mark...

You ever make a desicion on this?

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd be interested in finding out as well if something came of this!

Thanks!

Dragnmoon wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
This issue is on my to-do list after PaizoCon is over. The list is rather long, but one line specifically says "armored kilt clarification". What that will be or where it will appear has not yet been determined, but rest assured, I'm on it.

Old post Mark...

You ever make a desicion on this?

Grand Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would be interested in this as well. Any outcome that is official?

Osirion

Scribbling Rambler wrote:
Bottom line - no legal source has stats on [an old item], as the campaign setting is no longer a legal source.

Hmm. Well, I certainly am not interested in bringing more debate on the topic, but, it seems to be an issue.

In my case, it's not the kilt, but rather my use of the Osirion Khopesh that was in the Campaign Setting. Now, I've been playing with this weapon since Season 0 (in 3.5), but I recently had a judge tell me (not while at a game, thankfully) that I couldn't use it. He finally said that even if I could, I would have to bring a physical copy of that book.
Now, I'm fairly certain that there wasn't a "Core Assumption" in the Guide 1.1 and I wasn't required to bring it to every table, but, I'm kind of curious about how this item is treated now. I know that the Additional Resources page says that items can be used, but nothing new purchased. So, how do I prove to a DM that I had it before March 7th of last year, if a DM decides to be ... <ahem> less than accomodating?

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

You do need a legal copy of the source, either book, printout of a watermarked PDF, or the PDF on a device you can show it to the GM with.

And, if you have been documenting correctly in your Chronicles, you should have a Chronicle, dated before the cutoff date, with the Osirion Khopesh annotated as being in your bought items on it.

Qadira

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3tdf?Armored-Kilt#17

Final word given until gencon.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

No it is not legal because the AA does not give cost, bonuses, penalties, etc. As all of that information is in the Campaign Setting, the item is not available for PFSOP. If it is included in the Ultimate Equipment when it releases at Gen Con in a few short weeks, we will get it added.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Michael Brock wrote:
No it is not legal because the AA does not give cost, bonuses, penalties, etc. As all of that information is in the Campaign Setting, the item is not available for PFSOP. If it is included in the Ultimate Equipment when it releases at Gen Con in a few short weeks, we will get it added.

You mean like these cost, bonuses, penalties, etc.?

Adventurer's Armory pg 18-19 wrote:


Armored kilt3 20 gp +1 +6 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lbs.

Armored Kilt : When you add an armored kilt to a suit of
light armor, the set counts as medium armor. Likewise, a
kilt and medium armor counts as heavy armor. Adding an
armored kilt to heavy armor has no effect.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
No it is not legal because the AA does not give cost, bonuses, penalties, etc. As all of that information is in the Campaign Setting, the item is not available for PFSOP. If it is included in the Ultimate Equipment when it releases at Gen Con in a few short weeks, we will get it added.

You mean like these cost, bonuses, penalties, etc.?

Adventurer's Armory pg 18-19 wrote:


Armored kilt3 20 gp +1 +6 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lbs.

Armored Kilt : When you add an armored kilt to a suit of
light armor, the set counts as medium armor. Likewise, a
kilt and medium armor counts as heavy armor. Adding an
armored kilt to heavy armor has no effect.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

You mean like these cost, bonuses, penalties, etc.?

Adventurer's Armory pg 18-19 wrote:


Armored kilt3 20 gp +1 +6 0 0% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lbs.

Armored Kilt : When you add an armored kilt to a suit of
light armor, the set counts as medium armor. Likewise, a
kilt and medium armor counts as heavy armor. Adding an
armored kilt to heavy armor has no effect.

Eric, Problem is that is missing the important bit of text that states the rules what happens when it is added to Armor, that part is in the old Campaign Setting book.

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My read on it was from the AA errata

Adventurer's Armory errata wrote:

Page 19—In the Armor and Shields table, under
Light Armor, add an entry for “Armored kilt3”
with the following values: Cost 20 gp, Armor/
Shield Bonus +1, Maximum Dex Bonus +6, Armor
Check Penalty 0, Arcane Spell Failure Chance 0%,
Speed 30 ft./20 ft., Weight 10 lbs.

That bit is fine - but the "add-on to another piece of armor" isn't there. At the moment that means RAW doesn't have the add-on part, but because it *was* there before, I guess there's the lingering question about whether or not that was intentional.

Michael has it 100% right though - in a few weeks it won't even really matter I guess :)

*looks at his poor, poor, mistreated wallet, trying to muster up enough to get just one more PF hardcover book this summer...*

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Dragnmoon wrote:

Eric, Problem is that is missing the important bit of text that states the rules what happens when it is added to Armor, that part is in the old Campaign Setting book.

Ah, ok. Just checked a friend's copy of the Campaign setting. Now I see what you're talking about. I'd never seen that text before as all I had was the AA. Well, I guess I look forward even more to UE. Hopefully it'll let us know if adding a mithral kilt changes anything from a normal kilt.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

Eric, Problem is that is missing the important bit of text that states the rules what happens when it is added to Armor, that part is in the old Campaign Setting book.

Ah, ok. Just checked a friend's copy of the Campaign setting. Now I see what you're talking about. I'd never seen that text before as all I had was the AA. Well, I guess I look forward even more to UE. Hopefully it'll let us know if adding a mithral kilt changes anything from a normal kilt.

Yeah, it means your undies glow in the dark.

Osirion

kinevon wrote:
Yeah, it means your undies glow in the dark.

And here I thought that it was being Scottish that made kilts do that. ;)

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Yeah, it means your undies glow in the dark.
And here I thought that it was being Scottish that made kilts do that. ;)

Nay, not at all. Being a Scot in a kilt means always having to be aware f where your kilt it, or proving whether you have gone commando....

All I can say to that is; "Keep your kilt down!"

Spoiler:
And there will never be a FINAL word on kilts.

Cheliax ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Tampa aka Dominick

kinevon wrote:


Yeah, it means your undies glow in the dark.

Undies with a kilt?

Lantern Lodge ***

kinevon wrote:
Yeah, it means your undies glow in the dark.

Heresy!

Shadow Lodge *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

New update on the "Additional Resources" page. Looks like the word is indeed final:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory

Only the 2nd printing of this book or the 1st printing augmented by the current errata (released 7/21/11) are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions: a pseudodragon is not legal for purchase unless you’re a wizard with the Improved Familiar feat, elephants are never legal for play, and armored kilts are not legal.

Ah well.


This seems like the appropriate thread to ask this question in. Does an armored kilt make a mithral chain shirt medium armor, or light armor? Does a mithral armored kilt still increase an armor's encumbrance?

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

psychicmachinery wrote:
This seems like the appropriate thread to ask this question in. Does an armored kilt make a mithral chain shirt medium armor, or light armor? Does a mithral armored kilt still increase an armor's encumbrance?

It'd be the right thread except this thread is PFS specific, and armored kilts currently aren't legal in PFS play.

However, here's some answers: Mithral makes armor treated as one weight category lighter, but light armors are still treated as light. So, to answer your first question "mithral chain shirt + armored kilt = ?"... It becomes medium armor.

For your second question, note the descriptive text of the armored kilt. When you add an armored kilt to a suit of light armor, the set counts as medium armor. So mithral armored kilts do nothing special, except reduce weight, and increase max dex bonus.

Hope that helps!

Osirion **** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Sierra Vista aka Spaarky

We have have had these crop up recently in our local PFS groups, mainly due to hero lab saying nothing about them not being legal and I have had to point out that they are not legal in play.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Chris Mullican wrote:
We have have had these crop up recently in our local PFS groups, mainly due to hero lab saying nothing about them not being legal and I have had to point out that they are not legal in play.

To be fair, the change happened 3 days ago.

Shadow Lodge ***

I suppose I don't understand why they can't be purchased and used by themselves as armor. There is nothing 'missing' from the rules in that regard. :(

I'll just have to buy a Haramaki instead, I guess.

*

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CRobledo wrote:


To be fair, the change happened 3 days ago.

As I understand it, that's not the case. They've been prohibited for as long as I've been back active with PFS (since the beginning of this year), but there was yet another clarification to this fact recently. The reasoning now was the reasoning then, as well.

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