lol
notsureifserious...
I know this is a bit controversial, and honestly I don't have the time to go into long debates about it, however I did just want to say that I found the feats Implant Bomb and Remote Bomb in the Ultimate Magic book to have stepped over my own line of taste.
Why? They echo and reflect back onto the real world in a way that hits too close to home. In our current socio-political world suicide bombers and IED devices are something that far too many people have to confront on a personal level and these game mechanics, particularly the opening sentence of the Implant Bomb, "You may implant a bomb in a willing or helpless creature" feels far too insensitive to the reality people face today.
True, the vast bulk of Pathfinder is oriented around violence, but it's pretend violence that quite often has little correlation to reality. These feats emulate a direction that just crosses into my own "ick factor." People can argue and pick apart that logically I shouldn't feel this ick factor when there is a plethora of other ways to kill things in nasty ways in Pathfinder, but why I'm writing this isn't motivated out of logic or reasoning, but out of emotion.
I'm not intending this to be some heavy handed judgment on the Paizo folks, I just want to give my input that, "Whoa... that's a bit too much."
As I said, this is an issue that is open to a vast range of interpretation and debate, I just wanted to state how I felt about it.
notsureiftroll
But it does lend itself to some hilarious ness.
Why? They echo and reflect back onto the real world in a way that hits too close to home. In our current socio-political world gun violence adn firearm accidents are something that far too many people have to confront on a personal level and these game mechanics, particularly the opening sentence of the Bleeding Hit ability, "At 11th level, when the gunslinger hits a living creature with a firearm attack, she can spend
1 grit point as a free action to have that attack deal extra
bleed damage." feels far too insensitive to the reality people face today.
True, the vast bulk of Pathfinder is oriented around violence, but it's pretend violence that quite often has little correlation to reality. These feats emulate a direction that just crosses into my own "ick factor." People can argue and pick apart that logically I shouldn't feel this ick factor when there is a plethora of other ways to kill things in nasty ways in Pathfinder, but why I'm writing this isn't motivated out of logic or reasoning, but out of emotion.
I'm not intending this to be some heavy handed judgment on the Paizo folks, I just want to give my input that, "Whoa... that's a bit too much."
As I said, this is an issue that is open to a vast range of interpretation and debate, I just wanted to state how I felt about it.
If I seem a bit insensitive that's because I am. People live with slavery death, persecution, murder, suicide, and worse everyday of their lives. All are things that exist on some form or another in pathfinder or any other game for that matter.
I'm playing a game about heroic adventure in a fantasy setting not Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
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I don't get the same visceral reaction, but I can understand why you do and how it can get uncomfortable in that context.
I guess it's familiarity with Remotes via videogames that makes that one more palatable. Implant feels like it falls squarely into villain territory.
I don't think I'd have issues using these, though I would steer away from them if there are folks at the table that have been impacted by their real world parallels, same way I wouldn't use certain Lamashtu-heavy plot ideas or anything involving child endangerment with some other people at the table.
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I'm playing a game about heroic adventure in a fantasy setting not Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
People don't get to pick and choose their trigger issues. He shared that he felt discomfort over a new game element. He did not request that the game be sanitized.
I have my own "don't want to go there" subjects. I most certainly do not run a sanitized game.
Right. Using it on live, possibly willing targets is definitely an ick factor.
Using it on undead or a dead body screams "Diablo 2 Necromancer" to me, so I don't have an issue with that part.
Alchemists are a very icky class when you realize what some of the abilities are.
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I have my own "don't want to go there" subjects.Everyone does. Most don't come to complain on a public forum and write a longish post complaining about it.
You don't see PETA members or animal lovers in here getting angry and uncomfortable about Golarion goblins and there obsession with dog stabbing and horse killing.
It bears noting that Paizo used that as an explicit example of subjects to try and treat with appropriate sensitivity at the table in the Gamemastery Guide. They recognize that there is value in discussing such things.
Dude is sharing his concerns. I do that as well, because I love the game, not to stir things up for the sake of stirring them up.
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I know this is a bit controversial, and honestly I don't have the time to go into long debates about it, however I did just want to say that I found the feats Implant Bomb and Remote Bomb in the Ultimate Magic book to have stepped over my own line of taste.
<snipped>
Oh... man, then I don't think you want to hear of an alternative use of an eidolon*.
I know this is a bit controversial, and honestly I don't have the time to go into long debates about it, however I did just want to say that I found the feats Implant Bomb and Remote Bomb in the Ultimate Magic book to have stepped over my own line of taste.
<snipped>Oh... man, then I don't think you want to hear of an alternative use of an eidolon*.
** spoiler omitted **
Does it make me a terrible person that I can here the out of character conversation about this and find it hilarious?
But if you are: If these feats bother you, then simply refuse to use them AND ban them from any games you run.
In a game where murder, violence, large explosions, and all sorts of other insanity are common, implant bombs and whatnot are not that big a deal.
At least to me that is.
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Tis ok.
We will only use it to blow up bad people.
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Does it make me a terrible person that I can here the out of character conversation about this and find it hilarious?I know this is a bit controversial, and honestly I don't have the time to go into long debates about it, however I did just want to say that I found the feats Implant Bomb and Remote Bomb in the Ultimate Magic book to have stepped over my own line of taste.
<snipped>Oh... man, then I don't think you want to hear of an alternative use of an eidolon*.
** spoiler omitted **
Heh. If you don't already, you should be fine playing shadowrun.
Hey Mok, in some ways I almost agree with you depending on what kind of game you want to play especially between fantasy vs modern day style. Though, I feel that its nice that there are options for people who do want to go in that direction... and well frankly, my tolerance is pretty high and this implant bomb doesn't faze me... which is kinda good... probably bad? ah well.
Paizo forums got filled up with hard-asses and insensitive jerks pretty quick. When I first started lurking, everybody seemed genuine and considerate.
There goes the neighborhood.
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Paizo forums got filled up with hard-asses, the sanctimonious and insensitive jerks pretty quick. When I first started lurking, everybody seemed genuine and considerate.
There goes the neighborhood.
Hmmm... the powers also reminds me a little from the Ninja Scroll series, the lady who has the folks/zombies filled with gunpowder and they explode at a distance.
Oh I used that with an Abyssal Exalted already. Was tons of fun describing to the characters that the zombie horde they vanquished turned into ground zero.
May I just make an observation... You say that Implanted and Remote explosives are insensitive due to the deaths associated with them in the Modern world, or at least that is the gist. Some one changed it to involve guns instead, an apt point. But we are looking over something far simpler and indeed, without which there would be no point killing the game. Knives and, by proxy, bladed weapons.
How can you flinch at guns and explosives and not at knives? I am not sure of the percentage of knife related murders a year but I assume they are very very high, especially in places where guns are not easily accessible.
So we take out the Implant Bombs and the Remote Bombs, then the Guns go, then bladed weapons. What do we have left? Nothing. Because their is, I am sure, a documented case of murder with nearly every weapon (or at least a variation of that weapon) in this the modern day.
In closing... Hush!
Removed a post. Please be civil to each other (and each other's opinions).
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In a game I am in our alchemist would rock the new remote bombs, but on a more serious note. While the Implanted bombs don't disturb me over much I think that while difficult to find a reason that a good character would use them, an evil character would go gaga over these. The beauty of this game is that you can pick and chose what you want to include in your games. If these disturb you then perhaps you should leave them alone or ask you GM to leave them out of the game. As some of the other posters have noted the entire games combat mechanics (excluding magic) are based on real world weapons, Armor, fighting techniques.
The history of some of these weapons are long and bloody, especially the bladed weapons and guns. I hope that you can enjoy the game on your own terms but as for me, I have several villains bouncing round my head now that would be amazing with these feats.
Even a neutral character using undead would have no problem with Implant Bomb. I understand the concern, but it really doesn't add anything to the game that wasn't there already. I've seen similar tactics with undead used in the past. Like everythiing else in the game, you have to pick and choose what concepts you are comfortable with.
I don`t share the specific concern of the OP per se, i.e. concern about mirroring real-world suicide bombers (which is hardly a RECENT modern development, probably not much longer after explosives became common such tactics probably found use... e.g. the US Navy`s usage vs. pirates in north africa, kamikaze pilots, etc), and I`m not really sure what is so special about that mode of warfare/murder as opposed to any other which take place in modern days.... If anything, if something `hits close to home`, I think that`s a good thing.
But I DO find the abilities un-suitable thematically... Somebody mentioned Shadowrun...
These abilities are EXACTLY suitable for that type of game, and to see them ported over to a fantasy universe game just feels... wrong. And in this context, Implant Bombs aren`t usually used to kill lots of OTHER people, they are used to ensure the Implantee is killed, as a black-mail methods, or to keep information secret, etc.
I feel similar about Alchemists in general, honestly, although used as an NPC class it is somehow better to a degree, as long as they are `one-off freaks/monsters.
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They damaged his nervous system with a wartime Russian mycotoxin. Strapped to a bed in a Memphis hotel, his talent burning out micron by micron, he hallucinated for thirty hours. The damage was minute, subtle, and utterly effective. For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall.
I get the OP's point, although I don't particularly share it and wanted the developers to know that. Nor do I have a problem with him/her sharing their opinion.
I don`t share the specific concern of the OP per se, i.e. concern about mirroring real-world suicide bombers (which is hardly a RECENT modern development, probably not much longer after explosives became common such tactics probably found use... e.g. the US Navy`s usage vs. pirates in north africa, kamikaze pilots, etc), and I`m not really sure what is so special about that mode of warfare/murder as opposed to any other which take place in modern days.... If anything, if something `hits close to home`, I think that`s a good thing.
But I DO find the abilities un-suitable thematically... Somebody mentioned Shadowrun...
These abilities are EXACTLY suitable for that type of game, and to see them ported over to a fantasy universe game just feels... wrong. And in this context, Implant Bombs aren`t usually used to kill lots of OTHER people, they are used to ensure the Implantee is killed, as a black-mail methods, or to keep information secret, etc.I feel similar about Alchemists in general, honestly, although used as an NPC class it is somehow better to a degree, as long as they are `one-off freaks/monsters.
IMHO this was a missing part the designers did a great job filling. it's something like the gunslinger - I would not use it for every world of mine, but for someone is GREAT. As an example, a low magic steampunk setting would feature mainly gunslinger, alchemysts and rogues.
Barring setting, is an archetype missing IMHO.
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I figured since Implant Bomb doesn't explode until the creatures dies it is only really useful for zombies and undead with living creatures they get killed and you stabilize them and the threat is removed.
So I read Implant bomb I think "Exploding Zombies!" and this isn't the first time the ideas appeared in the game.
Remote bomb I suppose is similar to an IEDs, I didn't really think of that but I imagine if I'd had more personal experience I might have. In any case I suspect the developer didn't model it off of IEDs. It's far more likely he was thinking more in terms of making other interesting uses for bombs and made something that is unfortunately similar to something that tickled your nerves.
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But I DO find the abilities un-suitable thematically... ...
I feel similar about Alchemists in general, honestly, although used as an NPC class it is somehow better to a degree, as long as they are `one-off freaks/monsters.
The whole alchemist class brings a certain amount of steam punk to the game. I kind of like it but it is definitely another move away from a pure tolkeinesque fantasy setting.
I bringed a steampunk or "H.G. Welss + Fantasy" example of setting, but IMHO you can imagine the Alchemist as a sort of uber-apotecary in other settings.
Definitively not tolkienesque, but, as another example, I see it fitting well in a reinassance-themed campaign.
Moreover, what technology or similar element is thematically correct is a varying and surprising topic. Byzantines* had flame throwers, go figure.
* and chinese, of course.
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.....They damaged his nervous system with a wartime Russian mycotoxin. Strapped to a bed in a Memphis hotel, his talent burning out micron by micron, he hallucinated for thirty hours. The damage was minute, subtle, and utterly effective. For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall.
Well you jsut got my vote for sovereign ruler of the forum with that Neuromancer quote.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Well you jsut got my vote for sovereign ruler of the forum with that Neuromancer quote..
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.....They damaged his nervous system with a wartime Russian mycotoxin. Strapped to a bed in a Memphis hotel, his talent burning out micron by micron, he hallucinated for thirty hours. The damage was minute, subtle, and utterly effective. For Case, who'd lived for the bodiless exultation of cyberspace, it was the Fall.
+1
It has been something in the game for a long time.
I remember one of my DMs back in 1st ed days having a bunch of kobolds attack a party with globes from a necklace of missiles tied to their backs...
And plenty of magical mines like devices as far back as 2nd ed.
Also exploding undead...there was spells that did it.
I understand why the OP is offended, but personaly it brings back memories. Also...evil forces will be evil. It is sorta like saying you are offended by having a thug mug you in game...that happens in the real world too.
Anyone notice the new witch abilities where they can smell little children and bake people's corpses into animate gingerbread men, or strangle you with their eyebrows?
I love these abilities. They are ways to make a villain icky-pit-of-your-stomach-bad instead of just cartoon villain bad. I can see the PCs walking into a trap, a room with a man just about ready to bleed out who calls out to them. He is trying to warn them, warn them to get out before its too late, as he is surrounded by highly volatile chemicals and in 2 rounds, he is going to blow, blasting the building, and anyone near it sky high. As the PCs rush to his rescue, he tries valiantly to tell them its too late, choking on his last words, before- *BOOM*
After the PCs make it out of the flaming death trap, they will know two things. That an alchemist and his implanted bombs are involved and that they are going to bring him to justice.
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I don't picture the implanted bombs being used for suicide bombing, except by necromancers. Because the bomb triggers only when the subject dies, as in reaches negative their constitution in hit points. Dealing that much damage to yourself is not generally something someone could be motivated to do, ever. Especially since you would be killing yourself to deal splash damage within the radius normally allowed by the bomb around your corpse. Which is really weak, I think children have enough points of con to survive an attack like that long enough to be stabilized. Heck, small animals could survive that. The use of live agents as suicide bombers falls apart when you examine the ability mechanically.
Its clearly meant to make zombies go boom or set up a trap for do gooders trying to stabilize your victim.
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We will only use it to blow up bad people.
Only Paladins? No problem! :P
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I'm playing a game about heroic adventure in a fantasy setting not Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
People don't get to pick and choose their trigger issues. He shared that he felt discomfort over a new game element. He did not request that the game be sanitized.
I have my own "don't want to go there" subjects. I most certainly do not run a sanitized game.
/thread
People, there are these things called trigger issues. Everybody has them.
Harping about it with "I don't mind ogrerape/infanticide/suicides/etc in my games" "Me neither, woo!" like some horde of parroting monkeys doesn't solve anyone's problems, doesn't help the OP, doesn't support the developers of the rules(they are already aware you like nasty stuff and some others don't) and certainly doesn't add anything to this thread worth discussing.
You could +1 Mikaze's post, if you feel like supporting something.
ogrerape
The horror! The horror!
Cursed Hook Mountain ogrekin and my female rogue. I still shudder and they didn't really even do anything.
I know this is a bit controversial, and honestly I don't have the time to go into long debates about it, however I did just want to say that I found the feats Implant Bomb and Remote Bomb in the Ultimate Magic book to have stepped over my own line of taste.
Why? They echo and reflect back onto the real world in a way that hits too close to home. In our current socio-political world suicide bombers and IED devices are something that far too many people have to confront on a personal level and these game mechanics, particularly the opening sentence of the Implant Bomb, "You may implant a bomb in a willing or helpless creature" feels far too insensitive to the reality people face today.
I can refute the idea that UM has crossed a line with exploding creatures with a single word:
Balor.
That's right. Balors explode when they die. Other critters do so as well. It's been around since forever.
Plus, suicide bombings are hardly the only thing in the game people suffer from every day.
Every day, people live in fear because they have had the terrible luck to live in a place that is under the sway of tyranny. Whether it's a religion or a completely secular ruler, a lot of people now and throughout mankind's history have had to trade their freedom for a chance to survive. Government agents wander the streets oppressing them, and they can't trust their follow men. Not strangers, not neighbours, sometimes not even their own kin, because such tyrannies usually reward those who tattle on their neighbours and friends and kin. Doesn't necessarily have to be all true, either.
That's a really horrible thing, and yet it's part of the game. Cheliax goes the whole nine yards with the evil empire thing, Razmiran poses as a religious figure and keeps his lie alive with threats and falsehoods.
Slavery, another thing. Not so common nowadays, but still a very sensitive point for many. And yet the game has slavery. It even has methods to enslave someone's mind, to take the privacy of his own thoughts away from him. That is one of the biggest themes of dystopian fiction.
Murder. People being stabbed for some meager possessions. The game is full of game rules to make you better at that, and it's something that claims many, many lives.
Intimidation. It's in the core rules. And it's a great evil of our time, and all other times to boot. Some use it for racketeering, some just because they feel like it, and some intimidate others into having intercourse with them.
So, if one thinks about this for a little bit, one will find that there are a lot of things one can be sensitive about in this game.
I'm playing a game about heroic adventure in a fantasy setting not Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
People don't get to pick and choose their trigger issues. He shared that he felt discomfort over a new game element. He did not request that the game be sanitized.
I have my own "don't want to go there" subjects. I most certainly do not run a sanitized game.
/thread
People, there are these things called trigger issues. Everybody has them.
Harping about it with "I don't mind ogrerape/infanticide/suicides/etc in my games" "Me neither, woo!" like some horde of parroting monkeys doesn't solve anyone's problems, doesn't help the OP, doesn't support the developers of the rules(they are already aware you like nasty stuff and some others don't) and certainly doesn't add anything to this thread worth discussing.
You could +1 Mikaze's post, if you feel like supporting something.
Or, you could lend your voice to the support of what Paizo's doing, and let them know that you do NOT support a minority opinion.
My trigger issue? That you seem to feel that one person can post whatever he/she feels, but when others post a dissenting opinion, you tell them that it adds nothing to the conversation.
The street goes both ways - by your own logic, the OP's post doesn't support the developers of the rules, since they're already aware some folks don't like "nasty stuff".
Seriously - the OP can post what bothers him/her, that's cool. Others obviously feel the need to let Paizo know that they don't share that opinion, and they'd prefer that things stay how they're going.
Do you know why a lot of people post in opposition to the OP? Because posts like this are, at their root, aimed at altering content. The OP doesn't like something, and he's posted that. In the OP's perfect world, the end result would be that specific content, and all like content would be removed. Otherwise, why post a negative viewpoint of published content?
I'm not saying that posting such is bad - if there's something I don't like, I'm not afraid to say that. If I'm lucky, enough people share my opinion, and the outcome is more tailored to my preferences.
It's completely asinine to expect that a particular viewpoint can be posted and not opposed.
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The whole alchemist class brings a certain amount of steam punk to the game. I kind of like it but it is definitely another move away from a pure tolkeinesque fantasy setting.
Man, (swear word) Tolkien. There's so much more you can do with fantasy than "elves and dwarves and magic rings, lol".
Man, (swear word) Tolkien. There's so much more you can do with fantasy than "elves and dwarves and magic rings, lol".
Yes, this, this so very much. I think Tolken shouldn't even be a thought when coming up with Pathfinder material. We don't need to agonize over what Elvis would have done every time a new rock and roll artist makes an album...
As for the original post. I fully appreciate people's right to say what they feel, and express themsevles and all that. Me, I don't have a problem with it. I'm very glad they put it in, as it's something I know I'll use.
I have very definite and concrete concerns about "trigger issues". If you've had a Traumatic Brain Injury, or other diagnosed mental health issue, I can completely understand. I'm a veteran myself and have received treatment for mental health issues. I've met people who have had a TBI and the accompanying anxiety can control your life. Your brain essentially gets locked into that thinking that it's always dealing with that horrific incident, even months and years later thousands of miles away.
On the other hand, if you have not had a traumatic issue regarding a specific type of event, I don't really care. People choose what things offend them. I know certain things offend me and I recognize that I am actively making that choice, even if sometimes I don't realize it until afterwards. Media that is available for public consumption always has the possibility of containing things we don't like. With something like this, where the specific thing is such a small percentage of the book, and that book is just one release among many, I would hope most customers are able to voice their opinion and then move on enjoying the game. This isn't to say I and others are not allowed to be offended by things, but I think care must be given to how and why we voice that offense.
Art, media and rpg's reflect the world we live in. Paranoia (the rpg) was born in the 80's at the tail-end of the Cold War and those first few editions greatly reflect some of the mood and gestalt of society and culture from that time period. It lives on, but the feel of the game has changed to me as well as the attitudes of those playing it. The horrors of reality will always seep into some of our escapist fiction, even if it's just the glaring absence of those horrors, as presented by Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Everybody calm down. Every person has different trigger issues. For some it's torture, for some it's suicide bombers, for some it's sexual assault. Nothing wrong with that. The OP didn't say "Paizo shouldn't publish this sort of thing." This isn't a call for censorship or a ban of any kind. He's stating his personal preference. Nothing wrong with that.
So no name calling, everyone calm down, and not get into a fighting match about whose trigger issue is more valid or less valid.
My trigger issue is a game designer being absolutely right. ;P
I was enjoying Hello Kitty Island Adventure, until we got into the kindergarten porno ring that was selling organs harvested from newborns through the heroin smuggling Nazi torturers.
Had to read the Satanic bible to rid my head of those images!
I was enjoying Hello Kitty Island Adventure, until we got into the kindergarten porno ring that was selling organs harvested from newborns through the heroin smuggling Nazi torturers.
Had to read the Satanic bible to rid my head of those images!
I see no mention of Justin Bieber.
I mean, even you have standards.
I was enjoying Hello Kitty Island Adventure, until we got into the kindergarten porno ring that was selling organs harvested from newborns through the heroin smuggling Nazi torturers.
Had to read the Satanic bible to rid my head of those images!
I see no mention of Justin Bieber.
I mean, even you have standards.
Quite a huge leap from the garden of love and smiles to the porno ring isnt it?
We're not even going to get into the swarms of rape spiders...
