A little sad about Words of Power


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Oh absolutely, I was just showing how I was arriving at a Target word adjusting the level of a spell. Cantrips and 1st level Target words seemed to be the most elegant example.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
From the new ones, there's the Word version of Sending, which lasts for an unlimited amount of words, takes only a standard action to cast, and can even be used to let two people other than the caster communicate if one is near the caster. Also, the word for Haste is only 2nd-level and, while single-target, is ridiculously powerful, arguably better than a single-target version of Haste in many situations (gives an extra move action per round, rather than any of the usual Haste benefits). Other than that, the words are usually a bit weaker than the nearest spell.

Other better-than-normal wordspells that I've noticed (I'm sure most of these were in the playtest too, but I didn't follow the playtest):

  • Purify -- a 4th level spell that works as Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison or Restoration as desired, but even better, it doesn't have the expensive component or 1/week limitation of the regular Restoration spell
  • Servitor I-IX -- on the down side, the cost for summoning multiple creatures is way overpriced, but on the up side, you can summon creatures as a standard action
  • Paralyze Creature -- for some reason, druids get this Hold Monster-equivalent as a 4th level spell (and thus get a Mass Hold Monster-equivalent as a 7th level spell)
  • Frost Fingers -- a mini cold burst/bolt that staggers on a failed save; not bad for a 2nd level spell

Unfortunately, there are some clunkers in there, too. For instance, the polymorph subschool spells don't work the same as the polymorph spells in the Core Rulebook, so it's unclear how they're supposed to work at all. To wit, the polymorph rules state that your equipment merges if you turn into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, but the WoP polymorph rules don't mention types at all (from what I remember).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I noticed similar things as well Hogarth. That's why I think dabbling in the system while maintaining access to actual fully printed spells may be the best way to handle it. You get a bit of blaster versatility with words, which seems to be the strong point of the system. Yet you still also get to use spells that you just can't make with Words of Power, minor and major creation for example.

I like some of the kicker type addons to spells like the staggering from Frost Fingers. They add a bit of oomph without unbalancing things, but those are typically added to directly confrontational spells. Summoning on a standard action is nice, and while I love the Summoner idea I still disapprove of losing your eidolon when you cast summon monster from your SA. Limited to 1 active at a time I was cool with, but when it came up at my table the option I offered was if you want the summoner to lose their eidolon the druid loses his animal companion. My table agreed that was a fair call and so druids and summoners keep their battle cats.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Hey there folks,

This system is optional for a reason. It is very experimental, and we full well recognize that some elements are not going to work perfectly (there are even sidebars talking about this). That said, I think folks should reserve judgement until they can look at it themselves. Its complicated enough without going through a filter. Expect next weeks final preview of UM to look at the system in depth.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Mr. Bulmahn I apologize if I've come off as a backseat driver/jackass. I appreciate the work you all at Paizo have put into this optional system and I'm still excited to see it. I'm not trying to be that guy who says it sucks and is worthless. Am I a little disappointed that it's not more like what I envisioned? Yes, but then again there will always be something that doesn't quite equal what you truly hope for it to be.

I think the system has great potential for growth and to be used in interesting ways, I plan to delve more in depth into it and see just what my limits are. I tend to not play straight blaster casters which is why I was originally very disappointed to see that much of it's flexibility catered to nuking power. I did notice something was it intentional that Fire was the only element to have 6 words and for the last one to not allow a save or SR? And if so why weren't the other elements given the same sort of finisher?

Another thing I'd be interested to see though I know there are those who would cringe at the additional growth, would be to see additional words added to the system. Is there any chance of seeing things like a Creation family of words or future support for it? I know that most of the caster feats apply to word casters the same as regular casters.

Once again I offer my heartfelt apology I know I've come across as a jerk and as a armchair designer on this and it was not my intention. I love what Paizo does and I look forward to what future books offer. Hell I like you guys enough to fly out there for Paizo con (SC repping it in WA), which is not something I can say for many things.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

No worries Robert. I did not take your concerns that way at all. We understand that not every system will be perfect for every game. This one more so than others. Just thought I would clarify a bit as there seemed to be a fair amount of confusion regarding this complicated system.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

No worries Robert. I did not take your concerns that way at all. We understand that not every system will be perfect for every game. This one more so than others. Just thought I would clarify a bit as there seemed to be a fair amount of confusion regarding this complicated system.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Mr. Bulmahn,

Honestly, I love the system. I find it to be very intriguing and customizable. I love the potential it has. I, like Robert, tend not to play "blasters." Because of this, I have to agree that more words would be welcomed with open arms. And I have to ask (my curiosity won't let me not)...can we plan to see more words?

Blessings and thanks


For me, this thread has just turned more to a general discussion of the system. I am looking forward to getting my copy on the 18th when I can order the PDF.

Can anyone tell me if they kept the Versatile Wordcaster feat or some equivalent version of it? Some of what I read on the forums seems to suggest there is a feat for Spell Casters to use Words but not for Word Casters to use Spells. Is this correct?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There's not one in the sidebar in the Words of Power chapter. However, it is not a difficult thing to just put in a feat that does just that. The way I've discussed it with my table is that the Experimental Caster feat, letting regular casters break into word casting, also allows that caster when they gain new spells to choose between a word or a complete spell. We're also putting in a feat that's just the reverse all it does is let a Word Caster learn some more "precise/refined" magical formula. We felt this would give it the greatest amount of flexibility and entertainment. Keep in mind that's just for our table, but I do not personally see how it could hurt to let a word caster learn a few regular spells with a similar feat to Experimental Caster.

In keeping with the discussion if people have interesting combinations once we're past the 18th I don't see why people don't share a few Word spell ideas here. I think that'll help us all reach a deeper understanding of the system and for those who may suffer from overload in regards to build-a-spell can have a little reference to see if A) they're doing it right and B) potentially steal/borrow/draw inspiration from the creations of others.


Robert Jordan wrote:

There's not one in the sidebar in the Words of Power chapter. However, it is not a difficult thing to just put in a feat that does just that. The way I've discussed it with my table is that the Experimental Caster feat, letting regular casters break into word casting, also allows that caster when they gain new spells to choose between a word or a complete spell. We're also putting in a feat that's just the reverse all it does is let a Word Caster learn some more "precise/refined" magical formula. We felt this would give it the greatest amount of flexibility and entertainment. Keep in mind that's just for our table, but I do not personally see how it could hurt to let a word caster learn a few regular spells with a similar feat to Experimental Caster.

In keeping with the discussion if people have interesting combinations once we're past the 18th I don't see why people don't share a few Word spell ideas here. I think that'll help us all reach a deeper understanding of the system and for those who may suffer from overload in regards to build-a-spell can have a little reference to see if A) they're doing it right and B) potentially steal/borrow/draw inspiration from the creations of others.

Robert, thanks for the response.

I was thinking the same thing. Once I got the book I was going to start a thread to suggest spells that could be made for the same purposes. I look forward to it.


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Robert Jordan wrote:


Fireball 3rd level spell for regular casters, words of power you use Blast target word and the Fire Blast fire word, your range is close and the aoe is 10ft radius. Unless you boost it then the radius increases to 20 ft and the range goes to medium, it's also goes up 2 spell levels.

Don't know if someone pointed this out already, but if you boost the Burst target word so that the area goes up to 20 feet, that means it only goes from a 1st level word to a 3rd level word. Boosting the target word doesn't increase the level of the effect words. This means that wordcasters can cast a 3rd level fireball since they can use a 3rd level target word in a 3rd level spell. Boosting the Burst target word doesn't cause the level of the entire spell to go up.

I think there is just some confusion because the target words say "Boosting this effect word increases its level by #" when it should say "Boosting this TARGET word increases its level by #". It is just a typo, but either way it says that only that ONE word is being boosted, not all of the words.


Matrixryu wrote:
I think there is just some confusion because the target words say "Boosting this effect word increases its level by #" when it should say "Boosting this TARGET word increases its level by #". It is just a typo, but either way it says that only that ONE word is being boosted, not all of the words.

If you reword it, then of course it will say something different. :-)

It's not clear if it's a typo or not, frankly. I'll hit the "FAQ" button on your post.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:
I think there is just some confusion because the target words say "Boosting this effect word increases its level by #" when it should say "Boosting this TARGET word increases its level by #". It is just a typo, but either way it says that only that ONE word is being boosted, not all of the words.

If you reword it, then of course it will say something different. :-)

It's not clear if it's a typo or not, frankly. I'll hit the "FAQ" button on your post.

Well, look at it this way. The burst word says this : "Boosting this effect word increases its level by 2."

However, the Selected target word says this: "This boosted target word increases the level of all the effect words in the spell by 3 levels. "

Notice how boost says "this effect word" while selected says "all effect words". To me, this just means that there is a pretty clear difference between what happens when you boost these two words. They just didn't use the right terminology. And honestly, it makes a lot more sense than the other interpretations XD


Matrixryu wrote:
Notice how boost says "this effect word" while selected means "all effect words". To me, this just means that there is a pretty clear difference between what happens when you boost these two words. They just didn't word it quite right.

I agree that it makes much more sense if they meant "target word" instead of "effect word" for burst/line/cone. Otherwise, you end up with high-level clerics creating teeny tiny (10' radius) Earthquake- and Storm of Vengeance-equivalents because it's impossible to boost the area of the spell without raising the level above 9.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:
Notice how boost says "this effect word" while selected means "all effect words". To me, this just means that there is a pretty clear difference between what happens when you boost these two words. They just didn't word it quite right.
I agree that it makes much more sense if they meant "target word" instead of "effect word" for burst/line/cone. Otherwise, you end up with high-level clerics creating teeny tiny (10' radius) Earthquake- and Storm of Vengeance-equivalents because it's impossible to boost the area of the spell without raising the level above 9.

Hah, you're still going to have that happening on occasion because you can only use boost so many times per day, but at least this does make wordcasting much more effective.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If we read it that way, which to be honest I hadn't, then it makes boosting a lot more usable as you're no longer kicking out higher level slots to get the same effects as often. And you may be correct in that interpretation as I just noticed on my 4th read through that the example of Burst Fire Blast, don't laugh it's real, it says that if boosted it more closely resembles fireball. It does not mention it using a higher level slot than 3. I am inclined to say good eye sir, though I agree the wording on things is a bit complicated.

The flipside is it means that you can kick out a Boosted Selected Enhance Body with a 3rd level slot (5th level for prep casters 6th for spont). Which is typically the area of 6th level spells Mass Bull's Str and such, which you see around the 11th level prep and 12th level spont. That's a very sizeable increase. This is of course if we interpret that boosting a Target word only affects the Target word's level.


Robert Jordan wrote:

If we read it that way, which to be honest I hadn't, then it makes boosting a lot more usable as you're no longer kicking out higher level slots to get the same effects as often. And you may be correct in that interpretation as I just noticed on my 4th read through that the example of Burst Fire Blast, don't laugh it's real, it says that if boosted it more closely resembles fireball. It does not mention it using a higher level slot than 3. I am inclined to say good eye sir, though I agree the wording on things is a bit complicated.

The flipside is it means that you can kick out a Boosted Selected Enhance Body with a 3rd level slot (5th level for prep casters 6th for spont). Which is typically the area of 6th level spells Mass Bull's Str and such, which you see around the 11th level prep and 12th level spont. That's a very sizeable increase. This is of course if we interpret that boosting a Target word only affects the Target word's level.

I think that Selected -> Mass is the exception and that it actually does raise the effect levels. The others raise the target instead (I think). This is a good way to be, imo, since mass buffs are quite powerful.


Robert Jordan wrote:

If we read it that way, which to be honest I hadn't, then it makes boosting a lot more usable as you're no longer kicking out higher level slots to get the same effects as often. And you may be correct in that interpretation as I just noticed on my 4th read through that the example of Burst Fire Blast, don't laugh it's real, it says that if boosted it more closely resembles fireball. It does not mention it using a higher level slot than 3. I am inclined to say good eye sir, though I agree the wording on things is a bit complicated.

The flipside is it means that you can kick out a Boosted Selected Enhance Body with a 3rd level slot (5th level for prep casters 6th for spont). Which is typically the area of 6th level spells Mass Bull's Str and such, which you see around the 11th level prep and 12th level spont. That's a very sizeable increase. This is of course if we interpret that boosting a Target word only affects the Target word's level.

If Enhance Body has not changed from the playtest then it is rounds per level versus minutes per level for Bull's Strength. That might be a balancing factor. I will note that I haven't read the new rules so I won't chime in too much.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

You may be correct in it being an exception if so the wording should be a bit clearer to indicate that even though you're Boosting the Selected target word that the Boost affects the Effect words. Also Enhance Body is rounds not levels, but I'm used to seeing those spells kicked off right before or in the 1st round of combat so lasting rounds isn't that bad a deal.


Robert Jordan wrote:
You may be correct in it being an exception if so the wording should be a bit clearer to indicate that even though you're Boosting the Selected target word that the Boost affects the Effect words. Also Enhance Body is rounds not levels, but I'm used to seeing those spells kicked off right before or in the 1st round of combat so lasting rounds isn't that bad a deal.

I thought about it after my post. What you are probably trading off for minutes to levels is a single spell that can increase any chosen physical ability score not some major upgrade to mass.

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