Hi All. I had a question about an arcane archer build I'm contemplating.
After much pain and anguish, I'm heavily leaning towards 1 Wiz/6 Ranger/X Arcane Archer (I'll figure out the rest later). I had initially planned to go 1 Wiz/1 Fighter/4 Wiz/3 Elritch Knight/X Arcane Archer, but decided that for this character I'd prefer either the extra feats of 1 Wiz/6 Fighter or the skills/spells/animal companion of 1 Wiz/6 Ranger. I'm leaning towards the latter for reasons of flavor and versatility; I understand it is not combat optimal.
I did have a question, though, about the usefulness (both short- and long-term) of the ranger's animal companion for this build (one of the big selling points of the class for me). Since I'll get it at character level 5 (I'll likely choose a small cat, if it's any help), I was afraid about the animal's combat viability (both in terms of contributing damage and, more importantly, just staying alive). I would likely take Boon Companion at character level 9 (no sooner), but wasn't sure how the companion would fair a) in general, and b) during my first level of arcane archer, before I can take Boon Companion. So any advice would be much appreciated on the animal's viability. If it doesn't seem like it'll be of much use, I might lean towards taking 6 levels of fighter (or perhaps even my original build) instead.
One thing worth noting: I would prefer to have an animal that could survive in the thick of combat (i.e. I wouldn't really be interested in taking a bird for its auxiliary abilities).
The animal is going to have trouble surviving in combat. Also, you're a ranged character, and thus won't even be in combat to support your pet. This puts the onus on your team-mates to protect your pet, which is sort of frustrating/may not happen at all.
I'm currently playing a Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5 who is heading towards the final build of (Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 6/AA 3/EK +4/AA+1).
While I'm sure a straight Fighter Archer would do a little more damage, I'm having an absolute BLAST playing with more spellcasting and buffs. It is important to note that more spellcasting builds depend a little on campaign style, as you use buffs to make up for some lost combat ability. If you frequently play scenarios where fights are surprises to the characters and there are many hours between fights, it limits your buffs as an AA style character, and you may be better going combat focused over spells. That said, if you play pretty straightforward dungeon-crawls and typically encounters come pretty steadily once they start, then the buffs will work really well and the spellcasting will trump that combat (especially in the long run).
The feat situation isn't that bad unless you want to do both vital strike and full attack style stuff. Though at early levels there are a lot of feats archers need to stack up to start getting good. Hopefully Ultimate Combat has an option that lets Wizards trade out Scribe Scroll for a combat feat...
If you think this campaign will go to high levels, the spellcasting becomes more interesting, if the campaign will probably end in the early mid-levels then a heavier combat focus will probably win out.
1 Any build with pets in it die cause there job.
2 Any pet build that are not full leveled up pet die faster.
Just use the pet to block for you. So that no one get in to melee with you as are an archer.
Or some type of mount to keep you away form the bad guys. Different take on base idea but still the same thing.
I would not worry about the build but you tactics at the table.
Pet will not pass you in damage or the fighter. It lacks the AC and HP to last as long. Plus it dies when it reaches negative HP. Unlike PC.
Not saying they can not add to fight cause they can. It there job to set the flank or blocking so rouge can unload the full round attack with sneak attack or block so the wizard dose not get hit, soak up AoO fighter move to set up cleave or get base to with some on with reach.
I mean look at feats the let the pet stay on the field longer like Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, Light Armor Proficiency or thing that give them + to saves like Lighting Reflexes, Iron will, or Greater Fortitude ect . Or that help the melee strikers like Team Work feat Precise Strike, Team Work Outflank. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Do you want the rouge to spring attack to get in to the flank and use up 3 feat to get on attack off with Sneak attack dice. Or the pet to move do let the rouge spend the feats on two weapon fighting for 3 feats and get 6 attack in with Sneak attack dice.
That way the pet move in to the flank and give them +4 to hit and +1d6 to damage.
Or +6 to hit if it add other one of the PC. Any Damage pet dose would be just gravy.
Look at the money it take to beef up it AC, Saves, and HP vs To hit and Damage ability to over come DR. The defense route is much cheaper for than the offence. Plus any money you spend on him just makes you weaker because you did not spend it on yourself.
Remember the pet is fodder. It will die it should die that is it job. That is why do not cost you money to get new one unlike Familiars which do. Think of them like UAV they go in do a job if the come back great if not just get new one no big deal.
The Worst thing DM can do to Pc with a pet build is make pet "special" one of kind type thing cause then PC spend ton of time/actions/ Gold on trying to keep them alive.
I do not get up set when I can find my arrow after a fight it was uesd and did it job. Same thing for a pet.
Thanks for the replies. Sylvanite, I was wondering if you'd spot this, as I've seen your advice come up on the topic of arcane archer in other threads (I've done a fair bit of reading up on the class via these message boards). It was actually your opinion that initially had me thinking about going the eldritch knight route.
I'm currently leaning towards a fighter-heavy build for a few reasons. One, I like the idea of getting into AA as soon as possible (just a personal preference), which the arcane 1/martial 6 approach facilitates. This desire is in part due to the fact that this character is for the Living Pathfinder PBP on the Enworld forums - it'll probably take me a year and a half + just to work up to level 8. Beyond that, I'm still something of a newbie to tabletop rpgs, and I feel like I still have a lot to learn about playing a more magic-leaning character effectively (although you have to start learning somewhere). But you make a lot of sense for why you espouse the build you do; it's definitely some food for thought.
Based on what you two said, I don't think I'll be going the ranger route - as I said, the possibility of the animal companion was a big attraction for me of that route, and RP-wise, I don't think I could deal with having the companion be little more than cannon fodder. I'll still chew it over a bit, but the current sense is that I'm unlikely to go that route.
Thanks for the replies. Sylvanite, I was wondering if you'd spot this, as I've seen your advice come up on the topic of arcane archer in other threads (I've done a fair bit of reading up on the class via these message boards). It was actually your opinion that initially had me thinking about going the eldritch knight route.
I'm currently leaning towards a fighter-heavy build for a few reasons. One, I like the idea of getting into AA as soon as possible (just a personal preference), which the arcane 1/martial 6 approach facilitates. This desire is in part due to the fact that this character is for the Living Pathfinder PBP on the Enworld forums - it'll probably take me a year and a half + just to work up to level 8. Beyond that, I'm still something of a newbie to tabletop rpgs, and I feel like I still have a lot to learn about playing a more magic-leaning character effectively (although you have to start learning somewhere). But you make a lot of sense for why you espouse the build you do; it's definitely some food for thought.
Based on what you two said, I don't think I'll be going the ranger route - as I said, the possibility of the animal companion was a big attraction for me of that route, and RP-wise, I don't think I could deal with having the companion be little more than cannon fodder. I'll still chew it over a bit, but the current sense is that I'm unlikely to go that route.
Heh...yeah. I'm a bit obsessed with Arcane Archer style builds. I've learned a lot from other people on these boards. It's a good community overall, as I'm sure you've seen.
I think that you should do exactly what will be fun and comfortable. Ranger 6 is fantastic in that you can get Improved Precise Shot wayyyyyy before you otherwise could. Certainly starting off slow with a hybrid caster such as an AA (especially with some Divine Ranger casting mixed in) will get you comfy with casting spells and really improving knowledge of that aspect of the game.
All that said, I really, really, really encourage you to invest more heavily in EK than AA. AA is cool to supplement as it can advance casting, gets decent skills, and advances BAB...but the abilities are next to worthless. In fact, in a recent thread about stacking abilities between bows and arrows, I realized that if you have AA 10 it SEVERELY limits what you can do with your Bow in terms of magic. Good for saving money, but bad aside form that, in my opinion. Plus the capstone is based off of charisma. Eww. EK doesn't offer a lot aside from a few bonus feats, but it also doesn't rob you of caster levels beyond the first level.
I would do something like: Ranger 6/Wizard 2/AA 4/EK 8 to max your effectiveness.
Two tips I only recently realized: Imbue arrow with Emergency Force Sphere from the Cheliax supplement is a pretty nifty trick for removing an enemy from combat for a while, but you'll be fairly high level before you can do it.
If your DM is ruthless, get a Glove of Storing as soon as you can. It can keep your bow from being sundered. Free action bring it out, full attack, free action make it disappear.
Good luck with everything!
Would the guide variant ranger be a better fit? No there is no animal bond but the "instant favorite enemy" and some minor party buffs in favored terrain for allies seems like a good fit for an AA.
Also consider that the animal companion is only one possible choice for your hunters bond. You can also go for companions instead. Allows you to grant some of your favored enemy bonus to the rest of the party. The ranger also brings some key skills for an archer mainly stealth and perception. Also gives the skill points to have some skills.
The biggest advantage is skipping prerequisites. This can be very helpful. Also the rangers spell list has some decent spells even at low level. As a Wizard you will get scribe scroll as a free feat. Also gives you access to wands of cure light wounds without having to use UMD.
Also consider that the animal companion is only one possible choice for your hunters bond. You can also go for companions instead. Allows you to grant some of your favored enemy bonus to the rest of the party. The ranger also brings some key skills for an archer mainly stealth and perception. Also gives the skill points to have some skills.
The biggest advantage is skipping prerequisites. This can be very helpful. Also the rangers spell list has some decent spells even at low level. As a Wizard you will get scribe scroll as a free feat. Also gives you access to wands of cure light wounds without having to use UMD.
5 levels of Wizard also gets you Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item....which is reaaaaally nice for you and your whole group. A level of Wizard also gets you access to a wand of infernal healing, which is better outside of combat healing than wands of cure light wounds...you just have to be willing to get a little freaky to use that trick :)
As a side note, AA style characters tend to have decent, if not spectacular, amounts of skill points simply because they are a little invested in Int. Also, just one level of AA makes Stealth and Perception both class skills (so they're worth keeping up with on the way to AA or adding through an Int headband when you want them) and one level of EK makes Sense Motive a class skill. However you slice it up with other classes aside from AA, you end up with a pretty neat set of class skills, and a fair amount of skill points (and always remember that headbands of Int have skills that always have ranks equal to your HD associated with them...one per each +2 of the item).
On the skill front, dropping a point into Fly when you have a spare skill point around mid-levels is a really good idea. It'll help you auto make that Hover check (and it's a class skill for wizards!)
Dropping a point into many different Knowledge skills is also pretty nice, as with a level in wizard they are all class skills, and you'll have some decent Int to back that one rank investment up. Aside from a Bard, you'll be the champ at bar trivia games.
Lots of good stuff to think about...
If I do end up going the ranger route, I'm definitely likely to take the guide archetype. I've never been much of a fan of the contextually limited usefulness of favored enemy, and the idea of being able to apply it to the BBEG on demand is pretty satisfying. Not the greatest fan of Favored Terrain, for the reasons you mention, Rumbleroar, but I suppose one can't have everything.
The skill set that gets built up overtime in moving towards AA is a definite plus; I already started dropping ranks into perception at level 1 in anticipation of getting the class skill boost. The extra ranks are definitely one of the perks of the ranger route, but with an Int of 14, I can make due with the 2+ classes where need be.
Sylvanite, I definitely see the attraction of EK levels over a wealth of AA. Levels 4-6 of AA seem kind of barren to me - I would really like to see an upgrade of the class that provided more generally applicable abilities than what are basically free upgrades (though nice nonetheless) and few limited daily abilities. Enhanced capabilities based off of imbue arrow, for instance, would be nice (I know it's fairly common to house rule allowing it to function with all spells, for instance). But the class is still nice as it stands, and from what I hear, it's a noticeable upgrade from the 3.5 version.
The only problem, of course, is how long it's going to take it for me to finally get to AA. : )~