Damage to maintain Pin?

[DM Aron Marczylo]

A player of mine has had his summoned giant ant (also augmented) to cause damage whilst maintaining a pin.

I know the guy in real life and I know that he knows the rules better than anyone, but I can't find anywhere in the rules on d20pfsrd where it says you can deal damage to maintain a grapple when pinning someone or something and the attack and damage adds the CMB to it.

For instance (player's character in CotCT AP):

Ant-

Curnach's summoned ant maintains the pin, biting the wererat with brutal ferocity before fading back to the realm it was summoned from.

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (20) + 11 = 31 CMB to damage with sting, crit threat...
1d20 + 11 ⇒ (19) + 11 = 30 CMB to damage with sting, crit confirmed...
2d6 + 12 ⇒ (4, 5) + 12 = 21 Critical hit damage

I'm just looking for a reference as I've been able to find one for adding CMB to damage to maintain a pin.

[Quandary]

You don´t ´add CMB to damage´.
If you look in Grapple rules, under ´Maintain a Grapple´, there are the options for what you can do.
(Pin, Damage, Move...)
Damage is the one you want, it maintains the current Grapple state AND does damage as is described there.

I´m not sure why Pinning would matter if a Summons is going to fade out immediately, FulL Attacking would seem a better option then, but if you play that nobody really knows exactly how long it will last, then that makes total sense...

[DM Aron Marczylo]

Quandary wrote:

You don´t ´add CMB to damage´.

If you look in Grapple rules, under ´Maintain a Grapple´, there are the options for what you can do.
(Pin, Damage, Move...)
Damage is the one you want, it maintains the current Grapple state AND does damage as is described there.

I´m not sure why Pinning would matter if a Summons is going to fade out immediately, FulL Attacking would seem a better option then, but if you play that nobody really knows exactly how long it will last, then that makes total sense...

wasn't my character and it suited the situation. It was a player's character in a AP I'm running. It blocked the area from the other wererats.

[DM Aron Marczylo]

Quandary wrote:

You don´t ´add CMB to damage´.

If you look in Grapple rules, under ´Maintain a Grapple´, there are the options for what you can do.
(Pin, Damage, Move...)
Damage is the one you want, it maintains the current Grapple state AND does damage as is described there.

I´m not sure why Pinning would matter if a Summons is going to fade out immediately, FulL Attacking would seem a better option then, but if you play that nobody really knows exactly how long it will last, then that makes total sense...

Also it was a pinning that lasted a few rounds and kept the enemy out of one room as there was only a single entrance.

Pin can also be better if you decide to pin a spellcaster, making concenstraition checks far more difficult.

[Hama]

Well, you can't pin and deal damage at the same time, plus if the creature is grappling and chooses to deal damage, it will deal it's unarmed damage or it's primary natural weapon damage on a successful grapple check. No 31 damage. Spellcasters cannot cast spells while pinned either.

[DM Aron Marczylo]

Hama wrote:

Well, you can't pin and deal damage at the same time, plus if the creature is grappling and chooses to deal damage, it will deal it's unarmed damage or it's primary natural weapon damage on a successful grapple check. No 31 damage. Spellcasters cannot cast spells while pinned either.

odd, friend must be confused then as I have no idea where he would've gotten the rules from.

[Hama]

My bad about spellcasting...here are some quotes about grappling and pinning strate from the Reference Document:

PRPGRD wrote:

Grapple

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Multiple Creatures: Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.

That is for being grappled, now Pinning on the other hand:

PFRPGRD wrote:

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

There, as clear as possible.

[DM Aron Marczylo]

yeah I knew about spellcasting, getting a bit off topic there.

I was on about if anyone knew where my friend was getting the whole CMB + damage from as I've found nothing to calaberate that.

[wraithstrike]

DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

yeah I knew about spellcasting, getting a bit off topic there.

I was on about if anyone knew where my friend was getting the whole CMB + damage from as I've found nothing to calaberate that.

CMB is not added to the damage. Quandary has it right.

[Stubs McKenzie]

It depends how you read Grapple and Pin... to pull part of what Hama quoted...

Pinned Condition wrote:

Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

You can read that as Pinning==Grappling, so you would be able to pin and do damage in the same round.

or...

Options while grappling wrote:

Move: You can move...

Damage: You can inflict damage...

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition ...

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up...

It could be read that Pinning=/=Grappling, and must be done turn by turn taking up the rest of your round.

I read it as the latter when reading the rules the first time, as pinning is listed as something you can do as part of your standard action just like damage.. you would have to choose one or the other, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to read the last line of pinned and interpret that it follows the same rules as normal grappling after the first round in which you have pinned someone. That is to say, normal grapple first round, maintain second round and pin, 3rd round creature is already pinned, so do damage b/c pinned is a more severe form of grappling.

EDIT: i could be wrong, but i think yall are misreading what the OP posted about CMB and damage... he was totaling a to hit roll for CMB + modifiers, which = 31, than 30, to damage the creature being grappled... Now, that isn't correct either way, as you do not roll to hit when using the Damage option when maintaining a grapple, you just do damage equal to the weapon or natural attack of whatever you have on you.

Also note that you can, while pinning someone, tie them up... if you can maintain an effective pin whilst tying a creatures hands and feet I would think you could punch em in the back of the head, but I wouldn't allow precision damage or a coup de gras from the pinner (if you read pinned=bound=helpless, but that is a debate for another thread)

[Hama]

DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

I was on about if anyone knew where my friend was getting the whole CMB + damage from as I've found nothing to calaberate that.

Either from misinterpreted rules or because he is trying to cheat.

Dunno, if we look at what would take to maintain a pin, i don't think that it is very possible that i could break his arm or stab him with a small knife while also holding him helpless and immobile on the ground.