Breath of Life - Useless?


Rules Questions

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Clearly not completely useless, as the title would suggest. I mean, at least it gives us a 5d8 version of Cure ****** wounds. But the extra Life invigorating portion of it doesn't seem to actually do anything.

Link

PFSRD wrote:
If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total.

As I understand it:

PFSRD wrote:

Dead

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score

So the character in question was not brought back to life, because he never died. BUT:

PFSRD wrote:
If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead.

So... they come back to life if they aren't ever dead, but if they are really dead... they stay dead...

is this a long way of saying "heals 5d8+[max]25?"


Example

RagingBob is mangled in a nasty melee, and dropped to -35 hp below 0. He has a Con score of 18. He's dead Jim.

BandaidTimmy rushes up the next round, and casts Breath of Life on RagingBob's corpse. BandaidTimmy rolls 5d8+10(being 10th level) and gets average, totaling 32. Breath of Life heals Raging bob from -35 to -3. As -3hp is not enough to keep RagingBob dead, he is now alive again.

Alternately, same situation, but BandaidTimmy rolls minimum on his dice (5d8+10) totaling 15. -35 +15 is -20, which is still unfortunately enough damage for RagingBob to still be dead. Sorry RagingBob.

Scarab Sages

RagingBob totally deserved it. Never pick a fight with a Halfling.

Paizo Employee Developer

Not quite.

Let's say Fightertron has 16 con, and was dropped to negative 18. He's dead, but luck is with him! Clericimus has prepared Breath of Life! Clericimus casts the spell, and all he has to do is get a 3 (easy to do on 5d8+CL), and it's like Fightertron never died!.

Now if Fightertron was exploded to death with explodey doom and had been dropped to -50, Clericimus would need a total of 35 to bring Fightertron back.

No other cure spell can affect a dead character, so it's actually quite good. Even if you cast Heal on Fightertron when he's at -50, and toss 150 points of healing his way, he's still dead, as the spell does nothing for a corpse.

Breath of life is the only spell that can restore hit points to a dead character, and if it returns them to a hitpoint total at which they would not be dead, then they are not dead. Quite useful.


Magicdealer wrote:
RagingBob totally deserved it. Never pick a fight with a Halfling.

He so did!

PS, that halfling was a beast.


I see, I thought that "If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead." meant that the spell doesn't work on creatures who were dead unless they were somehow dead without being past negative their constitution (though it states doesn't work on death spelled targets), hence my confusion.

Paizo Employee Developer

Ven wrote:
I see, I thought that "If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead." meant that it didn't work on creatures who were past negative their constitution.

The wording is kind of confusing, yeah. It refers to the absolute value of the negative hp number, as any actual negative number is always less than one's Con.

So with 16 con, -16, -17, -18, etc after the spell = still dead; -15 = alive again.

Silver Crusade

Any Left 4 Dead player that's been saved by a defibrilator should appreciate the value of this particular spell. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Also it is understood that the Breath of Life spell suspends the "A dead character counts as being at hit-points equal to negative Constitution score", until after the affect is applied. Otherwise any character who died in the last round would get up from breath of life, since 1 point of healing from "neg con" would bring them back.


Well yes the spell is absolutely great.You don't have to pay for raise 5k and then restoration. Death effects... So great if you can raise your teamate. Fighter remeber to tip your healers. Next time they may just animate you.

Scarab Sages

Red-Assassin wrote:
Fighter remeber to tip your healers. Next time they may just animate you.

*slow clapping*

Silver Crusade

Red-Assassin wrote:
Death effects

Beating that alone makes this spell a champ.


Mikaze wrote:
Red-Assassin wrote:
Death effects
Beating that alone makes this spell a champ.

This spell is awesome in a high level end game. Ask my CotCT group.

Scarab Sages

This spell has saved a favorite animal companion in a RotRL campaign and a cohort in the CoT campaign. It was always on hand towards the end of SD. Highly recommend having Breath of Life available.

Scarab Sages

Rathendar wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
RagingBob totally deserved it. Never pick a fight with a Halfling.

He so did!

PS, that halfling was a beast.

Should've known to never get between a halfling and his SAM (static ability modifiers).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
Red-Assassin wrote:
Death effects
Beating that alone makes this spell a champ.

Did they errata BoL later to not include death effects? Cause my PDF definitely says:

Quote:
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/breathOfLife.html#breath-of-life

PRD has not changed from your PDF "
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life."


Alizor wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Red-Assassin wrote:
Death effects
Beating that alone makes this spell a champ.

Did they errata BoL later to not include death effects? Cause my PDF definitely says:

Quote:
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.

Probably yes, here is the PRD link to breath of life.


Alizor wrote:

Did they errata BoL later to not include death effects? Cause my PDF definitely says:

Quote:
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.

I have the physical first printing of the Core Rulebook, and that line is there, too. So, it never worked against death effects.


This spell has been used effectively 3-4 times throughout the campaign I am running. Very good way to save money...


PFSRD wrote:
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead.
'a negative amount less than' is weak 'math-fu' if you ask me. Wouldn't it be clearer if they said:
Me wrote:
If the healed creature's hit point total is greater then minus its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. etc...


Don't forget the negative level comes in after they've been brought back to life, costing them 5 hit points... So in the 16 Con example, they really need to be healed back to -11 hp.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthias_DM wrote:
This spell has been used effectively 3-4 times throughout the campaign I am running. Very good way to save money...

If you use the "Sunrise" rule, it might save a good deal more than that.

What's the Sunrise rule you might ask? It's from Arcanis where the effective time limit on ressurrection is the next sunrise. After that your soul is being reduced to it's essential bits in Belisarda's Cauldron, to be recycled in making a new one.


Kyle Baird wrote:
Don't forget the negative level comes in after they've been brought back to life, costing them 5 hit points... So in the 16 Con example, they really need to be healed back to -11 hp.

Incorrect -- that only happens with effects that state it happens. Like raise dead (which gives 2 neg levels), or resurrection (which gives 1).

Unless the effect states you gain negative levels you don't.

What's funny is if you are under the protection of deathward when they resurrect/raise dead on you, it is possible to not gain any negative levels at all.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Incorrect -- that only happens with effects that state it happens. Like raise dead (which gives 2 neg levels), or resurrection (which gives 1).

Unless the effect states you gain negative levels you don't.

What's funny is if you are under the protection of deathward when they resurrect/raise dead on you, it is possible to not gain any negative levels at all.

My book says, "Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day."

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Don't forget the negative level comes in after they've been brought back to life, costing them 5 hit points... So in the 16 Con example, they really need to be healed back to -11 hp.

Incorrect -- that only happens with effects that state it happens. Like raise dead (which gives 2 neg levels), or resurrection (which gives 1).

Unless the effect states you gain negative levels you don't.

What's funny is if you are under the protection of deathward when they resurrect/raise dead on you, it is possible to not gain any negative levels at all.

From the PRD

Quote:

This spell cures 5d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25).

Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.

Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.

Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.


Kyle Baird wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Incorrect -- that only happens with effects that state it happens. Like raise dead (which gives 2 neg levels), or resurrection (which gives 1).

Unless the effect states you gain negative levels you don't.

What's funny is if you are under the protection of deathward when they resurrect/raise dead on you, it is possible to not gain any negative levels at all.

My book says, "Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day."

I see the same in the pfsrd too -- and I'll check my book once the dragon that is sleeping in which den it lies wakes up...

That does make it significantly less useful though since you then need to clear their negative con +-5 hit points in order to stabilize them.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Might want to errata the spell to take out that negative level language then since it really is confusing and states the opposite of what you are saying.

I would really like to see it gone too! (The renaming would be wonderful as well).

Contributor

James Jacobs wrote:
Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

I disagree.

"Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day."

Character is dead.
Super-cleric casts BOL and improves dead character's hp enough that they're no longer dead.
Thus, BOL brought the character back to life (because for all other intents and purposes, the character is dead).
Thus, the character gains a negative level for a day, as per the spell description.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Thus, the character gains a negative level for a day, as per the spell description.

And immediately loses 5 hit points per the negative level description?

"In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses."


James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

James,

Given the changes you suggest to the spell, how long after the damage taken to place the character below negative Con can the spell be cast? I assume that if you get to the character within one round they do not suffer the negative level, but anything after that they do. Is 1 round per 3 Levels of the Cleric reasonable?

Contributor

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Kyle Baird wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Thus, the character gains a negative level for a day, as per the spell description.

And immediately loses 5 hit points per the negative level description?

"In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses."

That's... an interesting question.

It would be really, really lame if BOL saved you from being dead, and in doing so, killed you with 5 points of damage from negative levels.

Of course, I'm not a fan of "death penalties" for characters, so....


On the 'plus' side though if the BoL brought you back to life and then you died from damage from the negative level you have another round for them to use another BoL on you to bring you back to life again (since the round the first BoL was used brought you back to life, and then you died again).


Uhm,
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since the negative level is part of the spell's healing effect, wouldn't the lost 5 points of the lost level be taken off the creature's maximum, not it's current, hit points?

In which case, it's a moot point. You have 60hp. You go to -25 from a hit. Your con is 18. Cleric casts Breath of Life and heals 30 hps. You go to +5 hps. You are at 5 hps, alive, and have a maximum of 55 hps for 1 day. If the cleric later heals you after combat is over, he can only heal you up to 55hp, despite you having started with 60hp max.


Abraham spalding wrote:
On the 'plus' side though if the BoL brought you back to life and then you died from damage from the negative level you have another round for them to use another BoL on you to bring you back to life again (since the round the first BoL was used brought you back to life, and then you died again).

You'd be in the same boat, you'd take another negative level from the spell. Granted, you probably gained more than enough to stay alive that round, but it's not a given, if someone rolls minimum on the dice. So you could end up with 3 or 4 negative levels due to bad rolls.

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:

Uhm,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since the negative level is part of the spell's healing effect, wouldn't the lost 5 points of the lost level be taken off the creature's maximum, not it's current, hit points?

In which case, it's a moot point. You have 60hp. You go to -25 from a hit. Your con is 18. Cleric casts Breath of Life and heals 30 hps. You go to +5 hps. You are at 5 hps, alive, and have a maximum of 55 hps for 1 day. If the cleric later heals you after combat is over, he can only heal you up to 55hp, despite you having started with 60hp max.

Not by the way that negative levels are worked out:

Quote:
In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses.

So, you drop the -5 from the current hit point total and from your max per negative level.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

Will you push that for PFS as well? *hopeful smile*


Happler wrote:
mdt wrote:

Uhm,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since the negative level is part of the spell's healing effect, wouldn't the lost 5 points of the lost level be taken off the creature's maximum, not it's current, hit points?

In which case, it's a moot point. You have 60hp. You go to -25 from a hit. Your con is 18. Cleric casts Breath of Life and heals 30 hps. You go to +5 hps. You are at 5 hps, alive, and have a maximum of 55 hps for 1 day. If the cleric later heals you after combat is over, he can only heal you up to 55hp, despite you having started with 60hp max.

Not by the way that negative levels are worked out:

Quote:
In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses.
So, you drop the -5 from the current hit point total and from your max per negative level.

I'm not talking about the generic rule.

I'm talking about the spell needing to be errata'd to reduce only maximum hps for the temporary negative level.

Wouldn't it make more sense, based on the spell's intended use, for the negative level to only affect maximum and not current HP? Either that, or add 5HP to the healing effect, to counterbalance it.


LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

Will you push that for PFS as well? *hopeful smile*

Honestly, I houserule that any spell that restores HPs to a target, and has no effect on anyone other than that target, is spontaneously convertible. So Heal, Cure, Breath of Life, Vigor spells from 3.5, all spontaneous.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

I disagree.

"Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day."

Character is dead.
Super-cleric casts BOL and improves dead character's hp enough that they're no longer dead.
Thus, BOL brought the character back to life (because for all other intents and purposes, the character is dead).
Thus, the character gains a negative level for a day, as per the spell description.

Then this is probably worth FAQing and clarifying.

As the original designer of the spell, my intent was to introduce a method to save someone from the "brink" of death without subjecting them to the negative level at all.

Since it confused the Creative Director AND the spell's designer, it should be clarified in the next printing of the book, I suppose. :-P

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

I disagree.

"Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day."

Character is dead.
Super-cleric casts BOL and improves dead character's hp enough that they're no longer dead.
Thus, BOL brought the character back to life (because for all other intents and purposes, the character is dead).
Thus, the character gains a negative level for a day, as per the spell description.

Then this is probably worth FAQing and clarifying.

As the original designer of the spell, my intent was to introduce a method to save someone from the "brink" of death without subjecting them to the negative level at all.

Since it confused the Creative Director AND the spell's designer, it should be clarified in the next printing of the book, I suppose. :-P

+1!

So.. Do we need to FAQ your post to bring it to your attention? :P


mdt wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
On the 'plus' side though if the BoL brought you back to life and then you died from damage from the negative level you have another round for them to use another BoL on you to bring you back to life again (since the round the first BoL was used brought you back to life, and then you died again).
You'd be in the same boat, you'd take another negative level from the spell. Granted, you probably gained more than enough to stay alive that round, but it's not a given, if someone rolls minimum on the dice. So you could end up with 3 or 4 negative levels due to bad rolls.

Never stated it was a big 'plus' -- in fact I would almost suggest it's adding a negative number -- but it is adding...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
David Thomassen wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

James,

Given the changes you suggest to the spell, how long after the damage taken to place the character below negative Con can the spell be cast? I assume that if you get to the character within one round they do not suffer the negative level, but anything after that they do. Is 1 round per 3 Levels of the Cleric reasonable?

Changing the spell's name wouldn't change anything about how long you have. You still have to cast the spell within 1 round of the dead guy's death. AKA: Between the point he dies and that point next round. Once that time has passed, breath of life (or cure deadly wounds if you call it that) can't help him. He needs a raise dead spell.


Actually..... you guys just pointed out a stipulation that just killed one of my PCs.

She was brought back to life and then hit again afterwards, leaving her with 1 hp away from death.

However, that -5 HP penalty for negative level would have killed her....

I don't really flub rolls for the player, so I will inform the players promptly... thanks alot guys. Forums killed the rogue.....

Paizo Employee Creative Director

LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

Will you push that for PFS as well? *hopeful smile*

No. I pushed as hard as I could during the game's development and got nowhere—it's part of the game now, and not subject to change (until we do Pathfinder 2nd edition, I guess!). No need to keep pushing. I'll just change it in my games and float the suggestion out there in messageboards so home games can make use of it as they will.


James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

Will you push that for PFS as well? *hopeful smile*
No. I pushed as hard as I could during the game's development and got nowhere—it's part of the game now, and not subject to change (until we do Pathfinder 2nd edition, I guess!). No need to keep pushing. I'll just change it in my games and float the suggestion out there in messageboards so home games can make use of it as they will.

How come it didn't go anywhere? I agree about calling it cure deadly wounds, but I'm curious what the reasoning for not doing it was.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Bobson wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Breath of life effectively rescues someone from death BEFORE that negative level sets in. If you "die" and are restored to life within a round by breath of life, you do not gain a negative level.

Note also that it's a great idea to have multiple characters in a party have breath of life if possible; you can cast the spell multiple times in that crucial round, after all, which is how you can use the spell to rescue someone at a hideous amount of damage like, say –100 hp or whatever.

I also STRONGLY suggest adopting this house rule: rename "breath of life" into "cure deadly wounds." That way, clerics can spontaneously cast it.

Will you push that for PFS as well? *hopeful smile*
No. I pushed as hard as I could during the game's development and got nowhere—it's part of the game now, and not subject to change (until we do Pathfinder 2nd edition, I guess!). No need to keep pushing. I'll just change it in my games and float the suggestion out there in messageboards so home games can make use of it as they will.
How come it didn't go anywhere? I agree about calling it cure deadly wounds, but I'm curious what the reasoning for not doing it was.

Because Jason felt it made death too trivial and too easy to dodge if the spell was easier and more available to clerics by being something that they could all spontaneously cast. Since Jason's the lead designer, I acceded to that and let it go.

(But in my games it's still called cure deadly wounds.)


Well, I am not sure I am to keen about that spontaneous casting of BoL, How it stand nows, this is pehaps the key spell for Healing domain, so they could prepare it then spontaneous cast a cure in place. I think errata should come from the Empower part of the domain, random numbers vs fixed number argument. I guess the description of Metamagic Empower is badly worded to apply to healing.

BoL would be a great scroll for a cleric without the healing domain.


Red-Assassin wrote:
BoL would be a great scroll for a cleric without the healing domain.

At one point I had a bard character with a very high UMD skill, and I pondered Breath of Life from a scroll. Unfortunately, it isn't very useful unless you have the scroll in your hand constantly, or the target happens to be within 5' of you. Taking a move action to retrieve the stored scroll makes it so you won't reach the target in time (unless you also use something like Gloves of Storing).

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