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Azlanti, Pureblood. yes or no?


Advice

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Considering that a +1 CR could also mean...

Drow Noble
+4 Dex
-2 Con
+2 Int
+2 Wis
+2 Cha
SR 11 + Character level
At will SLA : Dancing lights, Deeper Darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, levitate
Constant SLA : Detect magic.
1x/day : Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, Suggestion...
Darkvision 120 ft
Poison Use
Light Blindness

A simple +2 to everything is definitely a big boon. But to say a +1 CR? I don't think so.

At first, a player would have to really impress me with his character background to allow this. I would also require to know the player well. If he is a dedicated Roleplayer, I would let it pass. If he was an armchair general or a kick-in-the-door-campaign lover, I wouldn't.


Krimson wrote:
A simple +2 to everything is definitely a big boon. But to say a +1 CR? I don't think so.

If you compare it to a non-Human race, remember that since the Azlanti is technically a Human, it also gets the bonus feat and bonus skill points.


If the GM allows the race, then the player should not be hampered or limited in anyway. At least no different than any other player.

It amazes me how many people just dismiss this as NO, IT CAN'T BE DONE. Of course it can. This race is not a game breaker by any means.

Solution: If the GM allows the race, and it actually is overpowered, then adjust encounters to balance it out a bit. Problem solved.


Are wrote:
Krimson wrote:
A simple +2 to everything is definitely a big boon. But to say a +1 CR? I don't think so.

If you compare it to a non-Human race, remember that since the Azlanti is technically a Human, it also gets the bonus feat and bonus skill points.

Does a bonus feat and skill points really compare to:

SR 11 + Character level
At will SLA : Dancing lights, Deeper Darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, levitate
Constant SLA : Detect magic.
1x/day : Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, Suggestion...
Darkvision 120 ft
Poison Use
Light Blindness

like Krimson stated above.

Krimson wrote:


At first, a player would have to really impress me with his character background to allow this. I would also require to know the player well. If he is a dedicated Roleplayer, I would let it pass. If he was an armchair general or a kick-in-the-door-campaign lover, I wouldn't.

I agree, it would have to be REALLY convincing kind of backstory to allow the person, not simply.

"He was born and raised in a place, the end"

Grummik wrote:


If the GM allows the race, then the player should not be hampered or limited in anyway. At least no different than any other player.

It amazes me how many people just dismiss this as NO, IT CAN'T BE DONE. Of course it can. This race is not a game breaker by any means.

Solution: If the GM allows the race, and it actually is overpowered, then adjust encounters to balance it out a bit. Problem solved.

Totally agree, afterall it is their decision and their responsibility to make sure the game is fun for everyone and that encounters don't get steam rolled by a single PC in the group because of his race which makes him slightly better.


Before you are allowed to play an Azlanti Pureblood, you should have to endure a campaign next to someone else playing one while you use normal human stats.

See how much you like it then.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Before you are allowed to play an Azlanti Pureblood, you should have to endure a campaign next to someone else playing one while you use normal human stats.

See how much you like it then.

But who would be the first to play one then, if one must observe another first?

Grand Lodge

I woukld allow it...but they start of with 10 less points. Basically, the stats get a mulligan. So basically everyone not a pureblood azlanti gets 20, the pureblood gets 10. Pretty simple fix I think.


Mahorfeus wrote:
But who would be the first to play one then, if one must observe another first?

That's the joke. :P


Cold Napalm wrote:
I woukld allow it...but they start of with 10 less points. Basically, the stats get a mulligan. So basically everyone not a pureblood azlanti gets 20, the pureblood gets 10. Pretty simple fix I think.

That works pretty well if the player with the 10 PB can't buy down stats. You might get something like 18 12 12 12 12 12, which the 20 PB regular humans can do too.

But with stat buy-down, you could see a 10 PB Azlanti Barbarian with 18 16 16 9 10 9, with the closest equivalent human with 20 PB having something like 18 16 16 7 8 7 or 18 15 14 9 10 9.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I'd only allow it if "purebloods" from the ancient progenitors of the Mwangi, Vudrani, Keleshite, and other ethnicities got it too.

Probably not even then really. The whole pureblood thing just makes my eye twitch a bit.


If you are up to some great gm'ing bringing into play this ancient nearly extinct race sure, but wouldn't it be better if the whole party were of the same race? Now that would be an exotic campaign.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Davor wrote:

I would have them hidden deep beneath the ocean in the great, lost city of Azlantis. There they would have perfected their technology after years of being completely isolated without the threat of war, harnessing new uses for magic to create a new kind of technology that they would then use to take the overworld by storm, ruling it with a firm, if benevolent, hand as they waited for the return of their dead god.

...

At least, that's how I'd do it.

Um...wouldn't they all be inbred by that point? They are extremely isolated after all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd allow it if, and only if, I thought it could improve the campaign (that is, the amount of fun everyone is having).

Grand Lodge

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
I woukld allow it...but they start of with 10 less points. Basically, the stats get a mulligan. So basically everyone not a pureblood azlanti gets 20, the pureblood gets 10. Pretty simple fix I think.

That works pretty well if the player with the 10 PB can't buy down stats. You might get something like 18 12 12 12 12 12, which the 20 PB regular humans can do too.

But with stat buy-down, you could see a 10 PB Azlanti Barbarian with 18 16 16 9 10 9, with the closest equivalent human with 20 PB having something like 18 16 16 7 8 7 or 18 15 14 9 10 9.

Not so worried about the azlanti having a +2 extra over the normal races in the third tier stats. Oh no an azlanti barbarian has 2 more charisma and int...umm not that big of a deal.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think that a +2 bonus to all attributes is a bigger deal than some other folks are suggesting.

The standard attribute array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) is what most NPCs get. According to Pathfinder Point Buy, it costs 3 points. The elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8) is one of the things that separates serious threats from their peers. You can buy the elite array for 13 point.

Taking the elite array and adding 2 to all attributes (17, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10) brings its cost up to 33 points. This is a character who has several strong attributes and no weaknesses for his opponents to exploit.

If I were to allow such a character, and I were normally running 20-point buy, I would want to give the other PCs some compensatory advantages. Probably something on the order of 4 free feats and 5 free traits.


i would only allow them for a adventure path were i allowed players to play slightly over the curve races such as tiefligs, asimiars etc
For normal adventures hell no.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have introduced an Azlanti pureblood into my Serpent's Skull campaign - in book 3. He was found dead in a burial chamber with an Amulet of Preservation (as seen in Dragon #342) about his neck. The PCs debated raising the body from the dead for several sessions, but finally agreed when one of the other factions was about to discover the body.

I found that the man's stats were less of a problem than his knowledge of ancient Azlant culture and Saventh Yhi - since there is very little official material to go on, I've had to "wing it" most of the time. I have used the NPC for information and direction when they get stuck.

Would I allow a PC to play an Azlanti pureblood with +2 to all stats? Without hesitation. I would do so because Pathfinder is a roleplaying game and the mechanics are just that... mechanics. Mechanics will never be more important that story - at least at my game table. The players determine how characters are played, but I, the GM, determine the fate of EVERYTHING else. I can mitigate the story/combat if need be to have some semblance of balance.

The fact is, some people are stronger, others are faster, others are smarter, others are more comely, and a rare few are all of the above. I wouldn’t hinder an Olympic gymnast just because her DEX is higher than mine, or penalize Edward Witten because his INT score his higher…. Simply, the Azlanti are a the progenitor of all other human subtypes, so they get better base stats.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
overfiend_87 wrote:

Atlanti, pureblood are a powerful race where they add +2 to all ability scores.

What I'm curious about is would you allow one if you allowed all core and other slightly powerful races like Tiefling, Aasimar, Tengu and ect?

I'm just asking about a balance issue not if you'd allow it due to them all supposidly being dead when Aroden fell.

Azlanti are not "slightly powerful", they're considerably further up the scale than the races you mentioned and are pretty much in Drow Noble territory. And there's also the problem that they're practically extinct.

Quite frankly, the only way one would ever appear in a game I run would be that I had set up a particular player to play a particular role as part of a campaign. And it would work because the gaming group I run isn't mandatory on the "all PC's must be equal" rule. I would never import one from an outside player into a campaign I run.

So in other words, the answer is .... "take your entire campaign, and your other players into perspective when you make such a call."

Now if I were to extend my Amber campaign ........

Shadow Lodge

I'd allow Azlanti Pureblood in my campaign, but it would have to be a character with one hell of a story. I'm not really worried about the stats, since our gaming group has a history of staying pretty baseline when it comes to min-maxing. You know, a dumbed stat here and there, support characters who specialize in powerful spells, nasty melee combatants who hold themselves back via being characterized as total jerks(ruins diplomacy attempts by trying to intimidat someone mid-sentence, etc), that kind of thing. No, the backstory requirement is in place because these Azlanti are pretty darn rare in Golarion.

From the top of my head, I remember may two or three places where a character of that origin might have possibly and indeed believably survived what was basically the end of the world. These are the statis prisons near Sargava, which house several turquoise-armored prisoners of war, the prison colony in the moon, which in itself is a pretty darn unlikely place to get a campaign character from, and finally the Darklands, where any kind of nasty magical prison, trap or other extraordinary circumstance might have caused these relics of the past to keep on living and not turn into morlocks, skulks or undead. Well, alright, I'd count the Steaming Sea as a possible place as well, but your story would have to be even more ridiculous to explain how you survived Mordanti elves, aboleths and the freaking sea journey to civilization(well, intact one).

In essence, as long as it's a character back story thing and not a way to maximize your character, well, fine by me.


Compare Azlanti Purebloods to Halflings.

Quote:


+1 to hit

On *melee* attacks. Halflings get a straight up +1 to hit and +2 to dex.

If Melee:
Net for Azlanti: +1 (Negated and Turned to a Halfling Advantage with Weapon Finesse.)
If Ranged:
Net for Halfling: +2.

Quote:


+1 to damage

Net for Azlanti: +2

Quote:


+1 AC (probably)

Net for Halflings: +1

Quote:


+1 Skill point

Net for Azlanti: +1

Quote:


+1 to all skills

This is a difficult one to quantify, as "all skills" are not useful for "all characters". Compared to Azlanti, Halflings get superior bonuses to skills they are likely to actually be using, and a higher bonus to a skill you would actually be using if you were a class likely to be a halfling trumps generalist.

Sorry, but I gotta give the nod to Halfling here, because I'm assuming that we will be choosing a race that befits the class if we are talking about pure racial advantages. When you also factor in that Dexterity comprises about 40% of skills also, it's a muddy pond.

Quote:


+1 hit point

Can't really argue to much that this one is an advantage for Azlanti.

Quote:


Probably an extra spell or two / day

Not going to consider this one in the equation, because Halflings have a bonus to Charisma as well, so they can just as easily get this perk by being the right class.

Quote:


+1 to all saves

Halflings get this in a manner that is not tied to stats, and thus is superior. Advantage: Halfling.

Now obviously there are some other things to consider. Bonus Feat, slower speed, Weapon Familiarity, Small Size (simultaneously a blessing and a curse.)

But the point I am trying to make is this. Are Azlanti purebloods better than halflings? Yes. But, are Azlanti purebloods better than halflings to the tune of an entire character level?

No. Absolutely not. Not even close. And it's not even close in power level to Drow Noble either.


overfiend_87 wrote:

Atlanti, pureblood are a powerful race where they add +2 to all ability scores.

What I'm curious about is would you allow one if you allowed all core and other slightly powerful races like Tiefling, Aasimar, Tengu and ect?

I'm just asking about a balance issue not if you'd allow it due to them all supposidly being dead when Aroden fell.

Tiefling, Aasimar, and Tengu are just as strong as the standard races.


I would allow it, but I would require a damn good reason other than, "I get all sorts of bonuses!" I also might make them start out at -2000XP. By high level, they would catch up to the other PC's and everybody would probably level within 1 encounter of each other. I think kit and class matter more than the difference in races when the levels go double digit.


Azlanti Pureblood is slightly less than half as good as an Advanced member of any PC race (one with the Advanced Creature simple template), and that's only worth +1 CR.

Taldor

If they simply just allowed this, I think most Humans in PFS sacntioned play would end up taking this.

You want the sweet ass +2 to all stats? Gotta go to a convention and beg/steal/borrow/connive for it.


KaeYoss wrote:

Anyway, You rarely have less than 3 scores you want to have decent or semi-decent stats on and at least one more you can't afford to dump.

And getting a boost in all of them instead of only one/some of them (and maybe penalty) is immensely helpful. Even a wizard or sorcerer - arguably the most focussed classes when it comes to ability scores - will find this really useful.

Plus, getting a +2 to dump stats is useful in point buys since you can completely dump that stat and still end up with a 9 and little penalty. The same comes up when you are boosting secondary stats, allowing you to spend only a few points before the point buy ramps up. With the saved points (and a 20+ point buy), it can be possible sometimes to get an 18 without having any serious dump stats. Usually I just end up with the same stats I would have if this was for a human , but with 1 less CHA score.

Really, the only thing that hurts a point buy is a penalty to one of the scores you were actually planning on using (as seen with a ton of the more exotic races having +2 DEX/CHA and -2 Wis, which makes them poor divine casters and near impossible to make them satisfactory full divine casters)

So overall, this is powerful, and you really should have level adjustment since this character will be good at whatever they try.

Mikaze wrote:

I'd only allow it if "purebloods" from the ancient progenitors of the Mwangi, Vudrani, Keleshite, and other ethnicities got it too.

Probably not even then really. The whole pureblood thing just makes my eye twitch a bit.

Yeah...that is something I feel people tend to sidestep in fantasy. A lot of the codifying fantasy literature was written in....a different time. Where people would forlorn the loss of a purebred people as it intermingled with lesser races. The fact that, to a certain extent, the alignment system is written from a very Eurocentric position is...troubling.

But I tend to feel Paizo has made attempts to use a more postcolonial perspective. I found the bestiary entry for lizardfolk serves as a fine example as an allegory on European encroachment on the populations of....well just about anywhere.


I played alongside a character who swapped bodies with an Azlanti, which for GM ease I think meant a +2 to every stat. That Ninja didn't suddenly start wiping the floor with every encounter like the "superstitious" Invulnerable Rager Barbarian did. With a good story reason, pure-blood Azlanti is hardly OP.


Alex Cunningham wrote:
I played alongside a character who swapped bodies with an Azlanti, which for GM ease I think meant a +2 to every stat. That Ninja didn't suddenly start wiping the floor with every encounter like the "superstitious" Invulnerable Rager Barbarian did. With a good story reason, pure-blood Azlanti is hardly OP.

Hey man, I played that superstitious against everything. Save against channel positive energy? Yes please


If you want the Azlanti feel but you don't want the stats, maybe look at the Advanced Race Guide for humans and find some thematically appropriate option (+2 to any two stats with no penalties, but no extra feats & skills? An extra hero point/level in exchange for no bonus feat?) Azlanti as written might work for some gaming groups, but if you as a player really just want it for flavor but your GM says no, try those options.


for those that think the azlanti is straight up worth 1 to 2 levels, aka a bump in CR, then look what the single level adjustment of the advanced template does to generic human. I have planned to create other "ancient" races that have smaller upgrades over the originals like true fey gnomes and the like. regretfully I never did get around to it. In the end however, allow them if it will make your players happy and it doesn't disrupt your game in some way. mind you it's about 1/2 a CRs difference. accommodate at your leisure.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Dempthal wrote:
Caius wrote:
Dempthal wrote:
It says that all stats gain a +2 bonus to scores. It does not change the rest of the human race, just add. This can be confirmed in Hero Forge as well, as you will still have to choose to add the +2 to your stats.
James Jacobs explicitly says that that is not the case here.
Thank you for the link, that helps. But then the problem is still there if you use Hero Lab. Maybe it's a glitch they have not caught.

That's because to do it properly, the folks at Lone Wolf should have statted the Pure-Blooded Azlanti as a separate race. It's a simple fix, if you can't stand validation messages, add the +2 and then put in a -2 in conditons somewhere to even it out. Or create a custom race using the editor. or the ARG race builder.

Cheliax

Holy mother of thread necro, LazarX!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

It was Peterson who necroed the thread, not me. Look up further.

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