Let's say you have an 8th level Inquisitor with the Rage Domain (sub domain of destruction domain) or a multiclass Barbarian/Inquisitor.
Can this character use the supernatural abilities of the Inquisitor class while raging?
Upon reading the description of rage, I find this:
Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills
(except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability
that requires patience or concentration.
Do supernatural abilities count as such? Barbarians can use rage powers that are supernatural while raging, so I am inclined to think it's good to go.
points of energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, or fire) for
1 round. A barbarian must be at least 4th level to select this
rage power. This power can only be used once per rage.
Has this been addressed? Just wondering if my raging Inquisitor can still use judgments and bane his weapons.
Thanks.
Bump.
Still looking for feedback on this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm biased here.
Is there a compelling argument that these abilities take patience or concentration?
Bane requires you to select a creature type and subtype. This is usually a very easy thing to do with an untrained check of the appropriate Knowledge skill, but even this simple use of a Knowledge skill might be beyond a raging character.I'm inclined to agree, but I'm biased here.
Is there a compelling argument that these abilities take patience or concentration?
Yeah, but a seasoned adventurer might not need to make a knowledge check to know that a dragon is a dragon, a skeleton is undead, or a griffon is a magical beast. I also don't think it preposterous that he wouldn't have to make a check to know that vampires fear sunlight.
I don't like the idea that any adventurer is a bungling fool that couldn't tell a shrew from a manticore without a knowledge check.
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Isn't that what a knowledge check represents? That you, as an adventurer, know that a dragon is a dragon, a skeleton is undead, ect.?
Knowledge that you possess, or may possess, being recalled. I think that's what a knowledge check represents. A lot of knowledge is hand-waved when you as a player remember it, but taken from the skill entry:
"Try again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."
"You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10."
Knowledge checks don't assume you're a blundering idiot. They're the representation behind the act of remembering that the skeleton IS undead. Meanwhile, the rage interaction basically seems to be saying that when you rage, you get so angry that you cannot even think.
I could see how that could cause problems.
An argument could be made that every time you remember the skeleton is undead, you are making a knowledge check to recall it. If it's something common to you, you probably enjoy a bonus high enough that you don't bother rolling - automatic success.
Do you actually have to roll to know that a skeleton is undead every time you see one? What if you roll a one? Did you forget since yesterday?
Do you have to roll a knowledge check to know what a dwarf is? Would a raging barbarian go berserk on a town because he forgot what humans are (not being able to make the check at all) despite the fact that he is one?
There has to be some base line of "Yes, you know this, even while raging." I don't think it should be spelled out, though, as it would be different for each character.
So, along this same line of reasoning, a raging barbarian wouldn't have the presence of mind to draw on anything he/she has learned?
Like:
-switching to a silver weapon vs. werewolves.
-drinking a potion of fire resistance when facing a fire elemental.
-closing his/her eyes when facing bodaks.
-etc.
I always thought knowledge checks were for more obscure information.
If a barbarian is so angry he can't think, how does he remember to wield his weapons properly? Basically, how does he do anything that he's been trained to do if his mind goes completely red?
Still...
Bane requires you to select a creature type and subtype. This is usually a very easy thing to do with an untrained check of the appropriate Knowledge skill, but even this simple use of a Knowledge skill might be beyond a raging character.
... is a pretty decent argument.
I don't question that a barbarian CAN'T make knowledge checks while raging. I guess I question whether such a knowledge check is required to use the inquisitor bane ability.
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Pretty much. From the barbarian text "Known as barbarians, these warmongers know little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare"
They aren't "trained" to wield their weapons more effectively. Besides, now you're getting into muscle memory as opposed to recalling knowledge using a knowledge check. Put another way, you don't *think* when you stand up, grab a bottle, walk around the room. Your body handles it for you when you conceptualize the desire to do so. When you remember that a skeleton is undead though, you're consciously recalling an association of information.
However, there's always the time before you rage, where you can drink that potion, switch weapons, or close your eyes. And your allies can always shout commands to you.
Again, I'm just going by what I can find in the book. I think that most of the time people don't make knowledge checks even when they should. As in, the player remembers that the vampires they fought last time were vulnerable to sunlight. However, two years passed in-game between those fights and the character probably should roll to remember it.
But this opens up ANOTHER problem. *sigh*
Knowledge checks are supposed to represent "what you know". However, you could succeed during the first vampire fight, and then two years later fail on the check. When you fail, the knowledge skill basically says you never knew it in the first place.
Still...
Bane requires you to select a creature type and subtype. This is usually a very easy thing to do with an untrained check of the appropriate Knowledge skill, but even this simple use of a Knowledge skill might be beyond a raging character.... is a pretty decent argument.
I don't question that a barbarian CAN'T make knowledge checks while raging. I guess I question whether such a knowledge check is required to use the inquisitor bane ability.
I would say that it could be, especially if the creature was uncommon. If, for example, the player wasn't familiar enough with the creature to no what it is just from playing, I might be inclined to ask for a check. Although the opposite wouldn't hold true.
I also might make them roll a check to determine subtype, unless it was a common subtype (like dwarf) or rather iconic (like an solar or a balor), or rather obvious (like a fire elemental)
In the end, it would have to be up to the DM, perhaps in concert with the player, to determine what knowledge is common enough, and not just monster knowledge, that a barbarian wouldn't forget it while raging.
You do not roll a knowledge check for obvious information. Nobody asks for a K (nature) check to tell a dog and a horse apart. In a world like golarion, the existence and general look of unread, dragons and the like should be common knowledge.
In most cases, determining the general type of a creature can be done by anyone. A check is needed to gain more specific information (such as weaknesses) or to tell somewhat similar beings apart (like demons and devils).
And even then a raging character is not mindless. He can still use the improved critical feat to aim for vulnerable spots and he should still be able to identify creatures kr knows - even if more by instinct than detailed knowledge.
Bottom line: I see no reason why an inquisitor shouldn't be able to use judgement or bane while raging.
Common knowledge is that which has a DC of 10 or less. For telling a dog and ahorse apart the DC might be 2, but telling a gnome from a halfling from a human child might be DC 5 or so. Regardless, in a rage, the latter three are probably indistinguishable.As for your Improved Critical line, that's rather irrelevant since what we're discussing are skills specifically barred from use during a rage.
What would be the DC to tell a human from a Balor? If he has to make a check, might not a raging barbarian slaughter a whole village, not knowing what he was killing? Would this be an evil act?
Could he suddenly, while raging, mistake himself for an undead, and kill himself rather than exist as an abomination?
...but if you wade into a crowd and rage on an enemy, it seems quite reasonable to me that your ability to distinguish friend from foe might be impaired.
Naw, no way...
That's the difference between rage and frenzy. Check out the old Frenzied Berserker PrCl out of Complete Warrior (I think). That one had a chance of hitting friends. Barbarians can distinguish between friends and foes while raging. I wouldn't impair a class that's already struggling by making it dangerous to its allies.A raging barbarian is allowed to do other things that require at least some amount of thought. They can drink potions, which means they can recognize a changing situation and make a decision based on that information. "Oh, I'm hurt. I should drink a potion of Cure blah Wounds." or "I really need to hit that dude. Where's my True Strike potion?" They could click on Boots of Speed or release a spell from a spell storing weapon. But can they use supernatural abilities?
So, the general consensus is that no one is really sure if a raging Inquisitor can use its (Su) abilities? Is there some nice FAQ or something that clearly spells out what a barbarian (or any raging character) can do while raging?