"Savage Species" Rulebook Conversion


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So, uh, this is easily the most awesome Homebrew undertaking, I've ever seen. Seriously, great job here. I actually had a "monsters as PCs" Campaign in the wings, and we were going to simply limit the CR of the monsters we were going to allow. But now that I've stumbled across this, a LOT of options are opened up now. I wanted to say, well, thanks for that.

Contributor

Green Smashomancer wrote:
So, uh, this is easily the most awesome Homebrew undertaking, I've ever seen. Seriously, great job here. I actually had a "monsters as PCs" Campaign in the wings, and we were going to simply limit the CR of the monsters we were going to allow. But now that I've stumbled across this, a LOT of options are opened up now. I wanted to say, well, thanks for that.

Thanks for the interest! Hope it works for your group, if you find any errors in anything or have any feedback please let me know!


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Hello everyone,

I am so grateful that my meager post years ago spawned this massive undertaking. I hadn't checked this post in a long time as I thought not much would come of it. I just noticed today that it had grown to monumental proportions and taken shape into something amazing. Thanks to zerzix along with everyone else who contributed.

Ryan

Contributor

W0ot Ryan the Creator has returned! =) Hope you like the product v22 so far.

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So had someone ask about a version of Ghosts. I think I came up with a good solution and like the Dryad - being emancipated so it can leave its tree - I made this a "deathless" Ghost. So not a ghost created from the soul of a dead person, but the soul/spirit of one that was never put INTO a person. So its a more balanced PC playable character and not altogether vile, pure hatred and evil.

Bestiary Levels v23


I created a quick version of the Raelis azata here that could be tossed in: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mZ0PNR6GLTG-xnGR8uUCxqXF_IqPNSImnYN3rS4 1xNQ/edit

Contributor

Myrryr wrote:
I created a quick version of the Raelis azata here that could be tossed in: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mZ0PNR6GLTG-xnGR8uUCxqXF_IqPNSImnYN3rS4 1xNQ/edit

Bad link: did you make sure to "share" it in its permissions?


Odd, it was shared to anyone with the link. It's open on the web now.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mZ0PNR6GLTG-xnGR8uUCxqXF_IqPNSImnYN3rS4 1xNQ/edit

And now that I look at it it appears the link randomly put a space between the 4 and 1 near the end of it...


Raelis link. Should be anyway, at least according to the formatting.

Grand Lodge

Myrryr wrote:
Raelis link. Should be anyway, at least according to the formatting.

Yup, no problem seeing this one.


Hello Zerzix and the others! Amazing work! I was wondering if I may request a Glabrezu? Thank you all for you have done so far!


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Also, I forgot to mention that I did use the Ettercap for a kingmaker campaign and it seemed to work out very well! Though he ended up being horribly killed while he was max lvl Ettercap with a level of monk. This was no fault of what you have created though, the DM was really trying to challenge the group and ended up killing half the party... Thank you again for making that up so I could play one, it was a blast while it lasted!


Hi guys, thanks a bunch for this, it's really helpful.
Just wondering - and I'm sorry if I'm repeating questions asked earlier (This thread has got pretty massive) - but why are you doing 1HD/level advancement? Some types are pretty weak to get a single level per HD. The squirrel for instance is a really pathetic 2nd level character and the CR of a Wyrmling Gold Dragon is 7 but you require it to be level 8. Why?

Grand Lodge

Falrien wrote:

Hi guys, thanks a bunch for this, it's really helpful.

Just wondering - and I'm sorry if I'm repeating questions asked earlier (This thread has got pretty massive) - but why are you doing 1HD/level advancement? Some types are pretty weak to get a single level per HD. The squirrel for instance is a really pathetic 2nd level character and the CR of a Wyrmling Gold Dragon is 7 but you require it to be level 8. Why?

CR =/= level. If you gave the gold dragon PC stat point buy instead of it only have 10 or 11 in its stats (even just 15 points instead of 3), that would make it +1 CR. So if you're building the character with 25 point buy AND you're giving it PC wealth, it's no longer all that weak.

Considering in 3.5 a gold dragon with 8 HD was level 12 because of the level adjustments, and 14 HD at level 20, there's nothing wrong with how it's set up right now.

Contributor

Falrien wrote:

Hi guys, thanks a bunch for this, it's really helpful.

Just wondering - and I'm sorry if I'm repeating questions asked earlier (This thread has got pretty massive) - but why are you doing 1HD/level advancement? Some types are pretty weak to get a single level per HD. The squirrel for instance is a really pathetic 2nd level character and the CR of a Wyrmling Gold Dragon is 7 but you require it to be level 8. Why?

Hey Falrien,

To expand on what Kevin was explaining...The reason I used HD = level vs. Pathfinders CR = level for monster conversion is that I wanted to still make "normal" core classes a little better than monster classes. I wanted people to still feel the urge to play a normal PC. I felt that CR = level was too powerful. My ultimate goal was to take ANY creature at a particular level and be able to put a human fighter of equivalent level against them and have the fighter juuuust beat them. As well as HD = level seemed to fix a lot of problems when it came down to breaking apart the conversion of a monster into discrete levels.

Taking the squirrel for instance (made as a joke) but for instance - any animal that receives "awakened" spell actually should have additional HD added, hence the extra levels. The fact that its a squirrel should already instill to a player, "this isn't going to be as powerful as a normal human fighter of equal level", but then again he is tiny and gets a nice AC bonus. lol But the creature itself is mainly for flavor.

In the case of the Gold Dragon, if you look at the old Savage Species conversion they used "buffer" levels inserted into the progression to slow down the power of monsters classes. Its one thing to have a wacked out ability that a player has to fight against once in a blue moon (lets say the medusa's gaze attack) vs. that ability given to a player who uses it EVERY attack, in every encounter at the table. That becomes way too powerful and to take that and give them the equivalent of +1 HD cause the use of CR = level didn't seem to fit as well. Instead I used the HD, which in play test appeared to stifle this super power.

Another way to think about is like this:
7th level PC vs. CR 7 Gold Dragon
7th level PC is only getting 7 hit dice - vs. my CR 7 Dragon is getting 8 hit dice. AND he's getting the ability to Fly, and 2 breath weapons, and 3 primary natural attacks, so on...

if you use the HD = level, he is at least lowered to equivalent of 7 HD to the PC 7 HD.

Hope this makes sense and I'm not rambling. lol


No, that reasoning makes quite a bit of sense, thanks guys.
I've made a few characters the last days (been off work sick) and while I take on board your desire for balance, do you think that a Grizzly Bear warrants 6PC levels? They're very tough and hit hard, have reach etc; but a 6th level fighter (should) slaughter one, let alone the things a wizard could do to embarrass it.
Also, bear (ahem.) in mind the weaker class features that a bear with 6-levels less than his contemporary human fighter might have. Is 6 levels still worth the trade-off?

Grand Lodge

Falrien wrote:

No, that reasoning makes quite a bit of sense, thanks guys.

I've made a few characters the last days (been off work sick) and while I take on board your desire for balance, do you think that a Grizzly Bear warrants 6PC levels? They're very tough and hit hard, have reach etc; but a 6th level fighter (should) slaughter one, let alone the things a wizard could do to embarrass it.
Also, bear (ahem.) in mind the weaker class features that a bear with 6-levels less than his contemporary human fighter might have. Is 6 levels still worth the trade-off?

I'd like to point out that a 6th level wizard could do things to embarass the 6th level fighter. You can't compare them. It's all about how you build them, and how competent the player is. To given an example, the last cycle that I played in there was a guy who somehow made it possible for his animal companion ape outshine his druid. I mean, the druid was useless. The ape was ridiculously awesome.

Contributor

Falrien wrote:

No, that reasoning makes quite a bit of sense, thanks guys.

I've made a few characters the last days (been off work sick) and while I take on board your desire for balance, do you think that a Grizzly Bear warrants 6PC levels? They're very tough and hit hard, have reach etc; but a 6th level fighter (should) slaughter one, let alone the things a wizard could do to embarrass it.
Also, bear (ahem.) in mind the weaker class features that a bear with 6-levels less than his contemporary human fighter might have. Is 6 levels still worth the trade-off?

Again, I know what you are saying and going for in your analyses. But, looking at the Bear at 6th level: he is getting a plus 10 to his strength, full hit dice progression, scent ability, +6 natural armor (not counting if he has magic barding or protection), +8 to his Con, 3 feats (if he took Improved natural armor, improved natural weapon(bite and claw) and 3 primary natural weapons (Melee bite(1d8+str) and 2 claws (1d8 plus grab)...and can give REALLY good hugs!

To reiterate, I'm not saying this is better or equivalent to a 6th level fighter in combat, and in actually is probably a hinderers (imagine that character trying to go to town to get a drink at the bar or meet a contact, lol)...but it is (most likely) a 6th level class.

In your analogy - all 6th level classes should be equal in combat? Imagine your 6th level fighter vs. a 6th level bard...will they be equal? If I had to choose between a 6th level Grizzly Character vs. a 6th level Rogue in a stand up fight, I may have to go with the Bear PC.

=)


So I went ahead and made another outsider. I didn't see any Daemons in the pdf so I figured Abaddon's resident soul eaters could use some lovin' and representing.

Here's the Crucidaemon, the wonderful Iron Maiden (heh, punny) of traps.


Iron Maiden? EXCELLENT!!!! (guitar noise)


And since I'm feeling productive today, here's a Veranallia Azata as well that you could add in it's 24HD of glory.


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In celebration of Easter

Rabbit, Naturally Awakened
A naturally awakened rabbit may grunt, lunge and even bite or scratch. They typically weigh 5–15 pounds when fully grown.

A natural awakened animal becomes a magical beast (augmented animal) similar to the spell Awaken. The natural awakened animal is allowed to roll its Int, Wis and Cha during creation in similar fashion to its other ability stat’s. An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. An awakened animal can speak one language, plus one per intelligence modifier.

Traits and Class Features
Tiny magical beast (augmented animal)
• Senses low-light vision, scent
• Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A rabbit has proficiency with its natural weapons, but not with armor or shields
• Speed: 30 ft.
• Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
• Languages: Common
• Skills (2+Int): Acrobatics, Climb, Perception, Stealth, Swim; Racial Modifiers +4 Jump, +4 Stealth

1st Level, 1d8 Hit Dice, +0 Base Attack, +0 Fort Save, +2 Ref Save, +0 Will Save, Special Feat, +2 AC Tiny Size, -8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 vs. trip, bite (1d3)

2nd level, 2d8 Hit Dice, +1 Base Attack, +0 Fort Save, +3 Ref Save, +0 Will Save, Special +2 Dex, +2 Wis, slam (1d2)

There is a 20% chance in the spring that a naturally awakened rabbit has additional magical powers:

1st level Lay Egg (Ex) This egg's shell appears colorful and is normally hidden by the rabbit. If found and cracked open it normally contains a small piece of sugared candy. In rare cases its contents are more valuable. There is a 30% chance that the egg contains 1 gold piece, 05% chance that it may contain a wondrous magic item (rolled randomly)

2nd level Limited Resurrection (Sp) At 2nd level the rabbit gains the ability of resurrection. This functions like raise dead, except that the rabbit to restore to full racial levels, but not including any class levels.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the rabbit's body still exists, it will be resurrected (The remains of a rabbit hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

Upon completion of three days, the rabbit is immediately restored to full racial hit points, vigor, and health, with loss of any class levels beyond its racial level.


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love this thread


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snags wrote:
love this thread

Not the only one.


Thanks guys! I've been going through each entry 1 at a time and cleaning them up, fixing errata issues and technical errors, level adjusting some spell like abilities and adding in flavor text. It might be awhile, but hoping to add in a few new monsters from new adventure paths and such soon.


I think you can also remove the tiefling, Oread, sylph, ifrit, undine, catfolk and ratfolk entries since they are in the ARG.


RHMG Animator wrote:
I think you can also remove the tiefling, Oread, sylph, ifrit, undine, catfolk and ratfolk entries since they are in the ARG.

Yeah, I have debated that for awhile now and did indeed remove a lot of monster entries that are already covered. My only regret now is that if I do fully remove them all - what if a player doesn't realize that he could play goblin/ratfolk or such as an option? I guess in the end its redundant and doesn't really fit into this document, but then again do I want it to be an all inclusive monster playing guide or not?

Grand Lodge

Jeffrey 'Zerzix' Swank wrote:
RHMG Animator wrote:
I think you can also remove the tiefling, Oread, sylph, ifrit, undine, catfolk and ratfolk entries since they are in the ARG.
Yeah, I have debated that for awhile now and did indeed remove a lot of monster entries that are already covered. My only regret now is that if I do fully remove them all - what if a player doesn't realize that he could play goblin/ratfolk or such as an option? I guess in the end its redundant and doesn't really fit into this document, but then again do I want it to be an all inclusive monster playing guide or not?

Not to that level. Think about the 3.5 Savage Species guide. That just listed at the end all the monsters you could play, and where to find them. It only showcased the actual monsters with racial HD, and nothing more.


I'm thinking or making an off-shoot of this with hybrids of the various races you broke down.

And I'll make renderings for each one, though It'll take some time.
But I would like to know if their would be interest in it?


What version is your document up to now Zerzix? I got sidetracked and haven't checked this thread in awhile.


I believe it's Version 24 he's working on


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Just wanted to say that I love this project and appreciate you guys working on it. I have been lurking in the background for almost 2 years quietly cheering you on. The only reason I have emerged from the shadows is to say in about 2 weeks I am going to start a campaign for my group using the current version. Going to do a kinda gestalt mix with it, one side monster and other class. We are going to start at level 1 and I am making them pick only creatures that have a minimum of 10 racial levels. I'm excited to do this and just wanted to show you what we are about to do with your work and give you a big thank you from my gaming table, we look forward to future updates.


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Jeremy Hart 363/RHMG Animator: Yep I am indeed am working on editing and doing major corrections for version 24. (Basically, I have learned sooo much more about the Pathfinder system mechanics since I have started this project - and have been doing freelance projects for 3pp, that I am slightly embarrassed to read through some of the earliest monster-to-level classes)

Hey Uhlar! I am glad you like it! Hopefully I can get more of this completed before you start your campaign (might not happen as I am working 3 other projects with deadlines at the moment) BUT...if you happen to get to it before I put out the next version, let me know and if I have those particular monsters edited properly I can send you the updates.

This is the latest version currently ====>v23

Grand Lodge

Jeffrey 'Zerzix' Swank wrote:

Jeremy Hart 363/RHMG Animator: Yep I am indeed am working on editing and doing major corrections for version 24. (Basically, I have learned sooo much more about the Pathfinder system mechanics since I have started this project - and have been doing freelance projects for 3pp, that I am slightly embarrassed to read through some of the earliest monster-to-level classes)

Hey Uhlar! I am glad you like it! Hopefully I can get more of this completed before you start your campaign (might not happen as I am working 3 other projects with deadlines at the moment) BUT...if you happen to get to it before I put out the next version, let me know and if I have those particular monsters edited properly I can send you the updates.

This is the latest version currently ====>v23

It's good to see you posting.


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So this is the first thread I've read on this (or any) website that I have read from beginning to end in...eons. Literally...well in human terms anyway. Kudos of awesome to Zerzix for the work you've done on this! Since you're working on 'edits' I'll point out that your naturally awakened ape, dire ape, and bear still lack Language: Common

I found this thread on accident actually. Looking for other things and I got distracted (the interwebs are just so full of--shiny!). SO thanks. I'm working on writing a fanfiction of a game I played nearly ten years ago and thought I'd update (otherwise known as: she forgot most of the details of the game so she's gonna make a lot of it up lol). Question on the Half-Janni: would the half-janni's NON-janni parent simply be RP or "fluff"? I was trying to figure out a way (before this thread) to have a half elf and a half-janni. In the bygone game the characters father was a grey elf, and the mother was unknown *killed ala disney style*. IF it was more than simple fluff would it just be adding "elven immunities" like they did on the half elf to show it's elven parentage?


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ReticentRouge wrote:

So this is the first thread I've read on this (or any) website that I have read from beginning to end in...eons. Literally...well in human terms anyway. Kudos of awesome to Zerzix for the work you've done on this! Since you're working on 'edits' I'll point out that your naturally awakened ape, dire ape, and bear still lack Language: Common

I found this thread on accident actually. Looking for other things and I got distracted (the interwebs are just so full of--shiny!). SO thanks. I'm working on writing a fanfiction of a game I played nearly ten years ago and thought I'd update (otherwise known as: she forgot most of the details of the game so she's gonna make a lot of it up lol). Question on the Half-Janni: would the half-janni's NON-janni parent simply be RP or "fluff"? I was trying to figure out a way (before this thread) to have a half elf and a half-janni. In the bygone game the characters father was a grey elf, and the mother was unknown *killed ala disney style*. IF it was more than simple fluff would it just be adding "elven immunities" like they did on the half elf to show it's elven parentage?

Hey Rouge!

Thanks for the kudos! (I love those) I also LOVE edits! Seriously, with a document of 182 pages - I sometimes feel that I can't see the forest for all the trees. So I ALWAYS welcome edits.

In terms of the half elf/half janni I'd do exactly as you said, with adding in the immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.

Maybe add in the elven ears and Elf Blood: Half-elf/Half Janni count as both elves and genies (outsider, native) for any effect related to race.


*waves to Zerzix* HI!

You're welcome for the edits. I noticed I forgot to check some of the later posts: add Gryphon to my list of nonspeaking naturally awakened =0)

Thanks for responding and your welcome to my kudos (it's well deserved!).

I like the ears! yay fluf!

Before I found you (my goodness that sounds like a cheesy ballad) I was going to go with "half-elf" as the base race and "half-janni" template. The d20pfsrd website lists the Half-janni as:

Half-janni:
is an inherited template that can be added to any human (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”). A half-janni uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here"

SOOOO I was stuck, since half-elf counts as both. I think it was probably a typo and should have been humanoid but I can't say for certain. HOWEVER even considering using an "elf" as the base creature I still managed to confuse myself on how to make it a "grey elf". Your solution by making the half-janni a "class" made my poor brain jump for joy! (not literally because that would hurt--a lot). Thanks for 'verifying' my idea on the characters non-janni parentage =0) MORE kudos!

Sovereign Court

Just wanted to let folks know that one of the players in my home game has decided to play a Nymph using the document here, and it's working out quite well so far. The other players have accepted her at face value that she's just an exceptionally pretty "elf"

The other thing I came here to ask, is this ... has anyone worked on any kind of Hero Lab version of any of these monster levels?


Hey Human D! Thanks for the support. I hope that PC works out. The nymph, brownie, sprite and any such fey are typically pretty powerful and tend to draw players eye to them. Let me know any feedback you might have (over powered/under powered/typos/miscalculations)

In terms of Hero Lab - I tried for a bit, but I never really got the hang of the coding. Some of classes seem fairly easy to add into Hero Lab, but the fact that this is a class AND a race made it above my pay grade.

I know SeeleyOne had been trying a version of the vampire into Hero Lab, but not sure how far he got.


Zerzix, I love your work and have been watching this thread for well over a year now. I think that you have done amazing at this project. I've seen that you've been reexamining fey regularly and that many of them are still a little off-balance, but I noticed something slightly wrong with brownie. Firstly, by officially they have 2 bonus feats and yours don't, that being said balance-wise your version is better. Secondly, in their racial modifiers section of skills they are listed as having +4 jump. Anyway. thank you for undergoing this amazing project. Hope to see more soon.


You rock pokepaul! Thanks for the catch! I debate a lot on if I should strive for pure accuracy vs. balance. Since this is by no means official and is conversion I feel ok sometimes if I fudge here and there in an attempt at balance.

Love the feedback, thanks. =)


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And I don't know how I missed it when I was looking at Brownie before but BAB and saves for level 2 are wrong.


Fixed, thank you sir!


Something is brewing in here. I can smell it...


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Your "space/reach" for serpentfolk is for a much smaller creature.


Ah! Thank you!

Grand Lodge

Got a new one for you Zerzix. Wanna see what you can do with a half-phoenix succubus.


Ha! That looks cool. I'll take a more detailed look when I get home.

Grand Lodge

Jeffrey 'Zerzix' Swank wrote:
Ha! That looks cool. I'll take a more detailed look when I get home.

Cool. Got a player that'd like to try it. Told her that probably the best way, besides being the monster, would be to go tiefling succubus bloodline (there's a 3PP pdf for that) with the phoenix sorcerer bloodline. At least until you do this up.


Hmm has anyone tried making one for a DoppleGanger, or Ethereal Doppleganger?

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